Leach detractors- have you seen IT?

[wulffui]

"It" being "the moment you know your coach will be a failure"?

With Wulff, there was, in my eyes, a moment when it became clear to me that he was not the guy to do the job, and his work beyond that was just affirmation of that moment.

The guys who are going out of their way to compare Leach to Wulff- has Leach given you that kind of moment yet? To where you know this is a lost cause? If so, when?

 

[froropmkr72]

"It" being "the moment you know your coach will be a failure"?

With Wulff, there was, in my eyes, a moment when it became clear to me that he was not the guy to do the job, and his work beyond that was just affirmation of that moment.

The guys who are going out of their way to compare Leach to Wulff- has Leach given you that kind of moment yet? To where you know this is a lost cause? If so, when?

For the previous staff....the moment was half time at Qwest against Hawaii...Sep 11 2009. Wasn't quite sure if I'd left a dew-doo in my pants....but it couldn't of stunk any worse than the reality of that game.

 

[YakiCoug]

"It" being "the moment you know your coach will be a failure"?

With Wulff, there was, in my eyes, a moment when it became clear to me that he was not the guy to do the job, and his work beyond that was just affirmation of that moment.

The guys who are going out of their way to compare Leach to Wulff- has Leach given you that kind of moment yet? To where you know this is a lost cause? If so, when?

Well, we know of at least one who, 30 minutes into the 2012 season and with some bigtime help from the booze, drunkenly declared Leach wasn't "going to get it done." The better question now is this: will the Little Dick Bairds do Cougar football a favor and flee to Montlake if Leach succeeds?

 

[Flatlandcoug]

"It" being "the moment you know your coach will be a failure"?

With Wulff, there was, in my eyes, a moment when it became clear to me that he was not the guy to do the job, and his work beyond that was just affirmation of that moment.

The guys who are going out of their way to compare Leach to Wulff- has Leach given you that kind of moment yet? To where you know this is a lost cause? If so, when?

Anyone who thinks that they've seen "IT" with Leach is delusional. I'm worried that the Air Raid isn't really the solution for us and that we might end up disappointed in Leach but there hasn't been the "IT" moment that makes it anything more than just worrying for the sake of worrying.

With Wulff, my "IT" moment was the Cal game in 2008. After that game, I guaranteed that Wulff was going to be fired before his contract expired. By 2010, I was trying to fool myself into not believing the "IT" moment, but by the end of the Oregon State game in 2011, only the most loyal Wulff supporters believed that he had any real chance at salvaging the sinking ship.

 

[Coug1990]

Anyone who thinks that they've seen "IT" with Leach is delusional. I'm worried that the Air Raid isn't really the solution for us and that we might end up disappointed in Leach but there hasn't been the "IT" moment that makes it anything more than just worrying for the sake of worrying.

With Wulff, my "IT" moment was the Cal game in 2008. After that game, I guaranteed that Wulff was going to be fired before his contract expired. By 2010, I was trying to fool myself into not believing the "IT" moment, but by the end of the Oregon State game in 2011, only the most loyal Wulff supporters believed that he had any real chance at salvaging the sinking ship.

CAL was my "IT" moment as well. First home game and it was a nightmare. We have seen glimpses of "IT" withe the offense. The offense is not where Leach wants it to be, but it is getting there. I see very good things with the receivers and OL in the coming years. The improvement that Halliday showed from his freshman year to his senior year has me believing that Leach knows what he is doing in regards to QB's, not to mention his track record at Kentucky, Oklahoma and TT.

 

[wulffui]

Then I guess it's 2-2, because I was out at Hawaii 35, WSU 0 too. After a not entirely awful opener against Stanford, and a tough game for Hawaii against Central Arkansas, they were all puffed up... and twenty minutes in- five tds down to a bad MWC team.

Not yet with Leach.

 

[Cougatron]

The Wulff "IT" moment for me was Hawaii beating us in 2009. I knew something was wrong then.

When we beat Arizona @ Arizona that was my "IT" moment where I knew Leach is going to lead us back to respectability. Still have a ways to go, but winning that game made me realize that being decent.. (not going for good just yet... just being decent is a real obtainable thing again)

 

[chinookpirate]

Everyone here wants Leach to succeed. Only a nitwit would think otherwise.

 

[YakiCoug]

Everyone here wants Leach to succeed. Only a nitwit would think otherwise.

Only a nitwit...

 

[kayak15]

I walked out on the Hawaii game at halftime to go to a bar and watch the second half on TV. First and only time I have done that. Couldn't watch any more without alcoholic support. The Cal game was horrible and the USC game where Pete Carroll had his boys take a knee in the first half out of pity was truly depressing. But the game that did it for me was the San Diego State game. We were ahead by a couple of scores and San Diego was forced to punt. We rushed the punter. I vividly remember screaming at the TV "Nooooo, don't try to block it! Just catch the ball." Sure enough, we were called for hitting the punter. San Diego got a new start and went on to win the game. Up to then I had given the benefit of the doubt to the staff. 'Maybe we are improving and I don't see it. Maybe it takes more time.' But after that San Diego punting debacle I thought to myself, "I don't know jack about X's and O's and even I know better than that. Maybe these guys just are not up to the task."

 

[405 Coug]

The positive "it" moment for me was in 2013 when the Cougs beat a heavily favored USC team in Los Angeles, that suggested to me he was going to be around as long as he wanted. Leach hasn't come close to the Negative "it" moment for me, with Wulff you could cite at least a dozen games in which you said, this guy is done.

I do believe you will see a much improved team this year because I think the leadership from the QB will be a more calming influence. I like Conner so I am not here to bash him, love what he did for WSU, but I do think Conner was an emotional roller coaster, which is not the best thing to have from your leader when you are a young team. His recent actions are an example, one day being excited about being in the NFL and the next day packing his bags and going home. I wish Conner well in the future, and he doesn't owe any explanation to anyone. This is just one small sample of something we as fans get to see, and makes me wonder what was he like around the team?

 

[Coug1990]

The positive "it" moment for me was in 2013 when the Cougs beat a heavily favored USC team in Los Angeles, that suggested to me he was going to be around as long as he wanted. Leach hasn't come close to the Negative "it" moment for me, with Wulff you could cite at least a dozen games in which you said, this guy is done.

Not only games, but many off field instances where you could see that Wulff was not ready for prime time.

 

[chinookpirate]

Not only games, but many off field instances where you could see that Wulff was not ready for prime time.

makes you wonder what Moos' motivation was when he hired him, doesn't it?

 

[Observer11]

Interesting you mention "IT".

There's an old joke in IT whereby the customer asks the IT professional, "Can your system do this or that?"

And the correct answer is always "Sure, with enough time and money, it can do anything".

So the better question is "How much time and how much money do you want to put into IT to get what you want?"

 

[wulffui]

makes you wonder what Moos' motivation was when he hired him, doesn't it?

Man, what an AD we had at the time that a committee member could just steamroll him.

I bet the room was ready to go Sumlin until Moos pounded the table.

 

[Coug95man2]

Interesting you mention "IT".

There's an old joke in IT whereby the customer asks the IT professional, "Can your system do this or that?"

And the correct answer is always "Sure, with enough time and money, it can do anything".

So the better question is "How much time and how much money do you want to put into IT to get what you want?"

Doesn't this eventually turn into a comparison game, because its about sports? We want to beat the rest of the PAC, right? So how much money and time compared to them? Are we hoping to get to USC level? Well they've dedicated multi-multi millions of dollars and over 50 years (probably could be argued 100) into football. UW? While not the same caliber, by any stretch, they've put some serious time and money into it, as well? Are we just trying to beat OSU? How much have they put in?

So I guess to me, if we want to beat out so-and-so, and they've put how much time and money into it, wouldn't that be a decent gauge of how much time and money we need to put into it? Hint: We haven't put nearly enough time or money into this boat that we're trying to float.

Now you didn't mention him by name, but if you're trying to gauge money/time with our current coach, I think that thread is 5 pages long and still going strong.

 

[CougEd]

Man, what an AD we had at the time that a committee member could just steamroll him.

I bet the room was ready to go Sumlin until Moos pounded the table.

I do have to confess....you just provided me with a chuckle. Thank you. It is amazing to me you start this thread, a thread about when the detractors and when the moment was they realized Mike Leach didn't have "IT". No Wulff supporters jumped in to make this about Wulff, but out of the woodwork we are talking about Wulff again.

Flat talked about hate, and it is a very powerful word. It sure seems like people who wanted the coach gone, and the administration made the move to get rid of him, that you can't let him go. There was no Wulffian that jumped into this thread that "turned" it about Wulff.

 

[CougEd]

I walked out on the Hawaii game at halftime to go to a bar and watch the second half on TV. First and only time I have done that. Couldn't watch any more without alcoholic support. The Cal game was horrible and the USC game where Pete Carroll had his boys take a knee in the first half out of pity was truly depressing. But the game that did it for me was the San Diego State game. We were ahead by a couple of scores and San Diego was forced to punt. We rushed the punter. I vividly remember screaming at the TV "Nooooo, don't try to block it! Just catch the ball." Sure enough, we were called for hitting the punter. San Diego got a new start and went on to win the game. Up to then I had given the benefit of the doubt to the staff. 'Maybe we are improving and I don't see it. Maybe it takes more time.' But after that San Diego punting debacle I thought to myself, "I don't know jack about X's and O's and even I know better than that. Maybe these guys just are not up to the task."

Here is the question I would ask of any coach who had such a move? Did the coach call for the block, or was a there a player who deviated from their assignments? It is unfortuante these things happen all the time. I remember in 2002 WSU just scored with maybe 30 seconds in the half. Holliday was told to kick it deep and he tried an on-sides kick. Even last year, in the third year of a rebuild, Cal already returned one kick for a TD, so next time we kick off we try something different, right? Nope, kick it right to the same player who really hadn't done squat for the entire year and he goes untouched again. same kick, same return. Ids there any part of me that things Leach or his staff teach that? Nope.

 

[wulffui]

I do have to confess....you just provided me with a chuckle. Thank you. It is amazing to me you start this thread, a thread about when the detractors and when the moment was they realized Mike Leach didn't have "IT". No Wulff supporters jumped in to make this about Wulff, but out of teh woodwork we are talking about Wulff again.

Flat talked about hate, and it is a very powerful word. It sure seems like people who wanted the coach gone, and the administration made the move to get rid of him, that you can't let him go. There was no Wulffian that jumped into this thread that "turned" it about Wulff.

You missed the part where Fishie gave Moos "credit" for "hiring" Wulff? Not surprised- you like making your issues about me. Also funny- the only name I mentioned... not Wulff. You? Mention his name five times here.

 

[Observer11]

Doesn't this eventually turn into a comparison game, because its about sports? We want to beat the rest of the PAC, right? So how much money and time compared to them? Are we hoping to get to USC level? Well they've dedicated multi-multi millions of dollars and over 50 years (probably could be argued 100) into football. UW? While not the same caliber, by any stretch, they've put some serious time and money into it, as well? Are we just trying to beat OSU? How much have they put in?

So I guess to me, if we want to beat out so-and-so, and they've put how much time and money into it, wouldn't that be a decent gauge of how much time and money we need to put into it? Hint: We haven't put nearly enough time or money into this boat that we're trying to float.

Now you didn't mention him by name, but if you're trying to gauge money/time with our current coach, I think that thread is 5 pages long and still going strong.

Each person is going to have to make that determination. But this is the internet and how/when they do it isn't going to square with others timeframe/dollar amount.

To many, that time and money has already come and passed. Others might say this is the year. On the other end of the spectrum, there's most certainly a camp that says all the time in the world/whatever it takes dollar-wise.

As for me, I'm probably somewhere between camp 2 and 3, leaning closer to 2 with each passing year.

 

[Coug95man2]

I do have to confess....you just provided me with a chuckle. Thank you. It is amazing to me you start this thread, a thread about when the detractors and when the moment was they realized Mike Leach didn't have "IT". No Wulff supporters jumped in to make this about Wulff, but out of teh woodwork we are talking about Wulff again.

Flat talked about hate, and it is a very powerful word. It sure seems like people who wanted the coach gone, and the administration made the move to get rid of him, that you can't let him go. There was no Wulffian that jumped into this thread that "turned" it about Wulff.

Lets not bring "hate" into this again. And I'll use this thread as an example to refute your claim of hate on this board.

Lets look at it from YOUR perspective: CML is average, he's done some good things, done some bad things. It's been kind of a "meh" tenure. But to others, they want to feel like we're on the right road, right? Isn't that human nature? So the more we all look back and see where we were, the better we feel about the now, right? So you call that "hate"? I don't.

To be clear, I don't 100% agree with this assessment I've put out there, I'm playing devils advocate here. But just because people are talking about him, you don't have to go to the lowest lying fruit and go there. You can try to think beyond the easy, politically charged, emotionally charged, hand fed word of this worlds press and call it "hate". There's multiple reasons for such talk.

Another one being, just the pure joy of watching you and your brother fight over who's going to have the last word… there's another good and genuine one.

EDIT: Another one, just human nature to want to be "right". Hence your inability to stop posting on such threads, as well as the existence of such threads...

 

[Coug95man2]

Each person is going to have to make that determination. But this is the internet and how/when they do it isn't going to square with others timeframe/dollar amount.

To many, that time and money has already come and passed. Others might say this is the year. On the other end of the spectrum, there's most certainly a camp that says all the time in the world/whatever it takes dollar-wise.

As for me, I'm probably somewhere between camp 2 and 3, leaning closer to 2 with each passing year.

I guess my point was, we need to define "success" first. And the only way to do that, IMHO, is to see what roads have already been taken, regarding money and time and see where they are currently. I think it's a great way to start said conversation. We want UCLA's kind of success? Well, they haven't put nearly as much time into it as, say USC's football program but man, do they have the money. So in order for us to expect UCLA's recent success, shouldn't we be putting that kind of money into it? If we don't put that kind of money, should we expect those returns?

 

[wulffui]

Lets not bring "hate" into this again. And I'll use this thread as an example to refute your claim of hate on this board.

Lets look at it from YOUR perspective: CML is average, he's done some good things, done some bad things. It's been kind of a "meh" tenure. But to others, they want to feel like we're on the right road, right? Isn't that human nature? So the more we all look back and see where we were, the better we feel about the now, right? So you call that "hate"? I don't.

To be clear, I don't 100% agree with this assessment I've put out there, I'm playing devils advocate here. But just because people are talking about him, you don't have to go to the lowest lying fruit and go there. You can try to think beyond the easy, politically charged, emotionally charged, hand fed word of this worlds press and call it "hate". There's multiple reasons for such talk.

Another one being, just the pure joy of watching you and your brother fight over who's going to have the last word… there's another good and genuine one.

The only people who want to talk about Wulff want to use him to slam Leach or Moos- look at why Ed and Fishie brought him up in this very thread. "Why did Moos hire him?" "Why do Leach's teams make a mistake Wulff's teams made?"

It's crap.

 

[Coug95man2]

The only people who want to talk about Wulff want to use him to slam Leach or Moos- look at why Ed and Fishie brought him up in this very thread. "Why did Moos hire him?" "Why do Leach's teams make a mistake Wulff's teams made?"

It's crap.

I don't mean to slam anyone or their motivations. I just truly hate the word "hate". It's over used, it's emotionally charged and it brings up connotations of "unfairness", "bigotry", "racism"… all these other words that should only be used in the most serious tones and conversations. And these words are just thrown around. Hate is serious and it's the most common "scape goat" out there. THAT is crap. Think outside the box, as SaveFerris has said in another thread… Just because you don't like something doesn't mean you "hate"… A knee-jerk conclusion that doesn't account for individuality.

 

[chinookpirate]

oh, oh... wulfui seems to hate uncomfortable facts.

 

[dgibbons]

For the previous staff....the moment was half time at Qwest against Hawaii...Sep 11 2009. Wasn't quite sure if I'd left a dew-doo in my pants....but it couldn't of stunk any worse than the reality of that game.

Same for me. What really did it was Wulff telling every media outlet he could that he expected to win during the week leading up to the game. Then the score was 35-0 with 10 minutes to go in the second quarter.

 

[wulffui]

oh, oh... wulfui seems to hate uncomfortable facts.

I just think the lies are junk. But by all means, show me where AD Bill Moos did anything other than fire Paul Wulff. I mean, you've always been a beacon of credibility.

I can wait if you're taking your fifth grade daughter out to lunch with your best friend Beau Baldwin, though.

 

[chinookpirate]

I guess my point was, we need to define "success" first. And the only way to do that, IMHO, is to see what roads have already been taken, regarding money and time and see where they are currently. I think it's a great way to start said conversation. We want UCLA's kind of success? Well, they haven't put nearly as much time into it as, say USC's football program but man, do they have the money. So in order for us to expect UCLA's recent success, shouldn't we be putting that kind of money into it? If we don't put that kind of money, should we expect those returns?

- Mike Price proved championships can be won in Pullman with shared locker room facilities with PE classes... twice.

- Moving WSU to Los Angeles is not the answer.

- success is defined by winning.

 

[chinookpirate]

I just think the lies are junk. But by all means, show me where AD Bill Moos did anything other than fire Paul Wulff. I mean, you've always been a beacon of credibility.

I can wait if you're taking your fifth grade daughter out to lunch with your best friend Beau Baldwin, though.

I won't follow you into crazy land, sorry.

The truth is there for all to see and no amount of minor message Bored propaganda you want to spew will ever change that, wulfui

 

[Coug95man2]

I just think the lies are junk. But by all means, show me where AD Bill Moos did anything other than fire Paul Wulff. I mean, you've always been a beacon of credibility.

I can wait if you're taking your fifth grade daughter out to lunch with your best friend Beau Baldwin, though.

With this AWESOME new format, I don't know whom your responding to…

If it's me, you're targeting the wrong guy. I agree with much of what you say, most of the time. Just because I don't jump on the bandwagon, doesn't mean the opposite. My ONLY beef in this thread is that Ed is telling me and others that we hate Wulff when he doesn't know us from a hole in the wall. And to me, that's one of the harshest words. Something to use carefully, much like telling someone they're racist. You better know your facts on that one, as well. And I'll never shy away from these "heavy hitter" words… that's all.

If you're responding to someone else… carry on…

 

[wulffui]

I won't follow you into crazy land, sorry.

The truth is there for all to see and no amount of minor message Bored propaganda you want to spew will ever change that, wulfui

So, you don't have anything? Like when you met Rodgers at Eastern and he told you the coaches didn't want him back?

That's what I assumed. I've seen all the platitudes COMMITTEE MEMBER Bill Moos dispensed- but since he fired him at his first opportunity, platitudes and a nickel will get you a trolley ride.

But if you actually have something, go ahead.

 

[wulffui]

With this AWESOME new format, I don't know whom your responding to…

If it's me, you're targeting the wrong guy. I agree with much of what you say, most of the time. Just because I don't jump on the bandwagon, doesn't mean the opposite. My ONLY beef in this thread is that Ed is telling me and others that we hate Wulff when he doesn't know us from a hole in the wall. And to me, that's one of the harshest words. Something to use carefully, much like telling someone they're racist. You better know your facts on that one, as well. And I'll never shy away from these "heavy hitter" words… that's all.

If you're responding to someone else… carry on…

No, we're good.

 

[Observer11]

I guess my point was, we need to define "success" first. And the only way to do that, IMHO, is to see what roads have already been taken, regarding money and time and see where they are currently. I think it's a great way to start said conversation. We want UCLA's kind of success? Well, they haven't put nearly as much time into it as, say USC's football program but man, do they have the money. So in order for us to expect UCLA's recent success, shouldn't we be putting that kind of money into it? If we don't put that kind of money, should we expect those returns?

As with 'when' IT happens, IT in terms of success probably varies widely by each person. If you want to define it by wins, that's fine. I won't fault you.

If I want to define it somewhere else, I should have the prerogative to do so as well - it's kind of like pornography, I know it when I see it.

Right this second, things are pretty hazy.

 

[Cougsocal]

"It" being "the moment you know your coach will be a failure"?

With Wulff, there was, in my eyes, a moment when it became clear to me that he was not the guy to do the job, and his work beyond that was just affirmation of that moment.

The guys who are going out of their way to compare Leach to Wulff- has Leach given you that kind of moment yet? To where you know this is a lost cause? If so, when?

Their is no 66-3 Cal game, or 69-0 - "just run clock" game with Leach. You would be an idiot to conflate Leach and Wulff. But if year 4 recruiting turns out to be as bad as year 1 and 2, you can stick a fork in him. There is only so much you can do with smoke and mirrors and bottom rung P-12 talent. I'd feel a whole lot better if Leach started to win some major recruiting battles, i.e. signing kids with Bledsoe and Mobley's pedrigree and/or recruiting a bunch kids who have the talent to start right out of the box as freshmen or first year JC transfers, because they are just much better than our veterans. I'm keeping my fingers crossed about this year's recruiting class, but I will be in full on panic mode if the likes of Porter, Mitchell, Broughton, Luani and Toki aren't in the starting line up early and often. We need the cavalry to arrive, immediately.

 

[Cougatron]

- Mike Price proved championships can be won in Pullman with shared locker room facilities with PE classes... twice.

- Moving WSU to Los Angeles is not the answer.

- success is defined by winning.

Alright hypocrisy chinook you brought up price and championships. Let's see when that happened and what was going in.

We won that Pac 10 title in 1997. and in 2002. What year was that in his tenure?... I'll do the basic math for you. Year 9. It took price 9 years to do it.

Now since you are of the selective memory type how many losing seasons did Price have before he got to the championship... the answer is 5. 3-8, 4-7, 5-6, 3-8, 5-6.

So based on your "Why did he hire Leach" "All that matter are wins" attitude YOU would have the EXACT same attitude toward Price after 3 years as you do for Leach.

Price went 6-5, 3-8, 4-7 his first three years. 13-20 - .393
Leach went 3-9, 6-7, 3-9 his first three years 12-25 - .324

Price took over a 9-3 team and Leach a 4-7 team. Price's predecessor would go on to win the National Championship. Leach's is coaching Team USA after being let go from USF after posting one of the worst offenses in the country.

And yet. there is only .069 and 1 win difference between them.

So all this shows is how absolutely hypocritically stupid you are. Because by YOUR logic they were an idiot hiring Mike Price after his results 3 years in.

 

[dgibbons]

I won't follow you into crazy land, sorry.

The truth is there for all to see and no amount of minor message Bored propaganda you want to spew will ever change that, wulfui

Just like your 700 posts on dawgman.

 

[YakiCoug]

I do have to confess....you just provided me with a chuckle. Thank you. It is amazing to me you start this thread, a thread about when the detractors and when the moment was they realized Mike Leach didn't have "IT". No Wulff supporters jumped in to make this about Wulff, but out of teh woodwork we are talking about Wulff again.

Flat talked about hate, and it is a very powerful word. It sure seems like people who wanted the coach gone, and the administration made the move to get rid of him, that you can't let him go. There was no Wulffian that jumped into this thread that "turned" it about Wulff.

And someone put a gun to your empty head and forced you to take part in this thread, right? Just curious: why is it that you and the little sis respond to nearly every post by Wulffui? Is it the moniker that gets you all lathered up? You seem obsessed with the guy. Perhaps another self-imposed ban is in order.

 

[chinookpirate]

I see nothing but a losing record, a falling fan base, lower ticket sales, growing debt and a seemingly endless tired string of excuses from an annoying chorus of Leeches.

I hope, above all, Leach can achieve this season something close to as great as what Walden blessed us with during his career which ended the absolute darkest hour in Cougar football history.

 

[Whitworth-Coug]

I see nothing but a losing record, a falling fan base, lower ticket sales, growing debt and a seemingly endless tired string of excuses from an annoying chorus of Leeches.

I hope, above all, Leach can achieve this season something close to as great as what Walden blessed us with during his career which ended the absolute darkest hour in Cougar football history.

What would HereWeGoCougs think of your post ?

 

[YakiCoug]

I see nothing but a losing record, a falling fan base, lower ticket sales, growing debt and a seemingly endless tired string of excuses from an annoying chorus of Leeches.

I hope, above all, Leach can achieve this season something close to as great as what Walden blessed us with during his career which ended the absolute darkest hour in Cougar football history.

You can see all that from within Wulff's sphincter? Amazing. You are truly talented, HWGC.