What exactly has Leach done to deserve all your support?

[Cougsocal]

I can't believe after the disaster that was the Wulff era, that the same mindset prevails, though championed by a different group of posters. 600 posts bickering over the virtue of two coaches who combined have won 15 games against BCS competition with the Cougs in 7 years. I am having a tough time coming to grips with the fact that Patrol and I seem to be the only posters who don't give a rat's arse who the coach is, so long he produces. 8 years of endless, and I mean endless, excuses why Wuleach is not to blame. "The cupboad was bare," "it takes time," "a break here a break there," on and on.

We know that the cupboard wasn't exactly bare when Wulff took over. We know that the cupboard wasn't exactly bare when Leach took over (he squeezed 6 wins out of a team full of Wulff recruits). We know from history that it doesn't take the time you are suggesting to rebuild a decimated program, but it does take two good recruiting classes right out of the box and 3-4 years, only rarely does success come after that.

I will start your reasoning for you:

1. The 2015 recruit class is a hotch above (athletic-wise) than past classes.
2.
3.
4.

This is a thought experiment. If you struggle to fill in 2, 3, 4, it's time to start being more demanding of Leach. Successful football programs aren't built on excuses, they are built on a demanding work environments and high expectations.

 

[CougEd]

The biggest reason is he is starting to layer olineman. Quality lineman ut remains to be seen, but lineman that are starting to mature and will be ready to play. Cole Madison may be the last redshirt freshman to start for Leach in awhile because he should be replacing graduating seniors with redshirt sohps and juniors.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

To Ed's point of layering O linemen, I'll add the same for D tackles. Similar logic, similar importance.

 

[wulffui]

I'm impressed with what he's gotten in place at the skill positions- I guess I see more athleticism in guys like Green and Lewis than you do, and think that those will be good Pac 12 units, not just "good for WSU" units.

 

[wulffui]

And the wins in the bowl season- @USC, @Arizona- where he kind of employed "go-kart" type game plans to stay in and win games against more talented competition, rather than "I'm the Air Raid coach, gotta throw 70 times" gives me an idea that he's very capable of coaching a big win, even acknowledging that's there's games on the other side of that ledger, too.

 

[kayak15]

The strength and conditioning program appears greatly improved.

Had the cojones to admit he made mistakes in hiring and replaced the weak links.

Has the reputation in the coaching field to attract some good recruits.

 

[dgibbons]

I can't believe after the disaster that was the Wulff era, that the same mindset prevails, though championed by a different group of posters. 600 posts bickering over the virtue of two coaches who combined have won 15 games against BCS competition with the Cougs in 7 years. I am having a tough time coming to grips with the fact that Patrol and I seem to be the only posters who don't give a rat's arse who the coach is, so long he produces. 8 years of endless, and I mean endless, excuses why Wuleach is not to blame. "The cupboad was bare," "it takes time," "a break here a break there," on and on.

We know that the cupboard wasn't exactly bare when Wulff took over. We know that the cupboard wasn't exactly bare when Leach took over (he squeezed 6 wins out of a team full of Wulff recruits). We know from history that it doesn't take the time you are suggesting to rebuild a decimated program, but it does take two good recruiting classes right out of the box and 3-4 years, only rarely does success come after that.

I will start your reasoning for you:

1. The 2015 recruit class is a hotch above (athletic-wise) than past classes.
2.
3.
4.

This is a thought experiment. If you struggle to fill in 2, 3, 4, it's time to start being more demanding of Leach. Successful football programs aren't built on excuses, they are built on a demanding work environments and high expectations.

He got WSU to a bowl game two years after the disaster known as Wulff. You need to examine your so called "reasoning" or maybe just use your brain a little.

Last year was disappointing.

 

[wulffui]

He also raises the profile of the school from a national standpoint, in a way that avoids focusing on his record here (or at TT, to be fair), or WSU's recent history making futility.

 

[Observer11]

Ask me again just prior to the 2017 season. Right now, decidedly undecided.

 

[YakiCoug]

He got WSU to a bowl game two years after the disaster known as Wulff. You need to examine your so called "reasoning" or maybe just use your brain a little.Last year was disappointing.[/QUOTE]

If WSU had brought in some JC defensive players, last year likely would have been a 7-5 or perhaps an 8-4 season. Instead, the staff rolled the dice on DII returnees. As for the original point in this thread, I don't see people blindly supporting Leach. I see people reacting to the myopic allegiance to the previous staff, or to the trolls whose sole purpose is litter the free board.

 

[wulffui]

The kicking game, choosing to redshirt your leading receiver, and the washout DB class of '12- Dockery, Jackson, and Ford- were probably the three biggest factors in last year, and those are things that seem to be getting addressed or already have been.

Also, as a fan, I'm used to a lot of gut punch losses, probably even a few nut punch losses and seasons... but the Wulff years were the bad guy in the movie reaching into your chest and ripping out your heart and showing it to you. Suddenly, getting hit in the nuts a couple times isn't the end of the world. And once, we got a cookie!

Obviously, the novelty of that, wears off more, year by year- this offseason didn't impress me anymore than the season did, but it looks like they're addressing the largest issues that took them from bowl team to three wins.

 

[spongebob11]

Your prediction of a 3-9 team that could have gone 8-4 is on par with your manic cries for help and bitching on the premium board along with your Ed obsession.

I'll bring you some Apple sauce so you can take your meds.

 

[fingerdisco]

Your prediction of a 3-9 team that could have gone 8-4 is on par with your manic cries for help and bitching on the premium board along with your Ed obsession.

I'll bring you some Apple sauce so you can take your meds.

One of my high school coaches had a saying: "if you're going to act like a turd, go lay in the lawn." I think you should go find yourself some grass to deposit yourself on.

 

[spongebob11]

One of my high school coaches had a saying: "if you're going to act like a turd, go lay in the lawn." I think you should go find yourself some grass to deposit yourself on.

Not sure who you are but feel free to take your own advice pal.

 

[chinookpirate]

Too bad your Hs football experience was polluted by such a lacking coach. Prolly explains in part, why you ended up the star of finger disco rather than something meaningful in life.

 

[fingerdisco]

Not sure who you are but feel free to take your own advice pal.

I learned a long time ago not to lash out like a child, so I don't need the advice anymore. Thanks though.

 

[YakiCoug]

Your prediction of a 3-9 team that could have gone 8-4 is on par with your manic cries for help and bitching on the premium board along with your Ed obsession.

I'll bring you some Apple sauce so you can take your meds.

Is your mental illness genetic?

 

[spongebob11]

Is your mental illness genetic?

This coming from the guy who stalked my brother's coworkers and got banned by the former owner for making fun of our dead mom.

 

[chinookpirate]

I learned a long time ago not to lash out like a child, so I don't need the advice anymore. Thanks though.

So, why now?

 

[MikeFingLeach]

Jesus ban nookie and sponge already. They turn a decent thread into spam.

Layering O/D line talent.
Dipping into JC ranks to get help now
We are a functional special teams away from being a bowl team
We are a functional D away from being a bowl team
Leach is a smart guy and hasn't forgotten how to coach.

 

[fingerdisco]

So, why now?

I politely decline your invitation to get into a childish bickering contest.

 

[bhamm03]

First of all he has done some things I like and don't like. Here are my five reasons
1. bringing in national attention
2. bringing Asst coaches that can coach. Yes he missed on Breske and Volero was his friend.
3. Bringing in OL for a change
4. Have big time offensive numbers since god knows when.
5. Bringing in better recruits then ever before.

changing a program takes time and doesn't happen overnight. You honestly believed that he could have won in his first season I think not.

 

[Cougatron]

- He accounts for 10% of our bowl appearances in just 3 years after the previous staff won 9 games in 4 years.

- This was also the first time we returned to the post season in a decade

- He's building the program from the trenches. Yet bringing in skill position people, secondary is fairly worry some, but hopefully that will get better now that their are fresh faces around the defense.

- For the first time in 7 years we had 2 players drafted in the NFL.

- We beat USC (first time in 10 years) in the coliseum (13 years)

- We've broken numerous passing records with a QB that was never healthy 100% of the season and hasn't been in the system entirely from the beginning or recruited by him.

- We've finished in recruiting 3 of his 4 recruiting classes ranked in the Top half (60+) according to rivals. The last time we did that was 2004-2006

- He makes changes necessary personnel wise

- He holds players accountable off the field and in the classroom. Yes occasionally there are still arrests and problems, but it's a lot less than what it was, and yes if you screw up you will get booted, and he's not afraid to do it.

- The number of BCS offers our recruits have is tremendously higher

- He doesn't bs you and he's always extremely consistent. I don't feel like the coach is a used car salesman which is nice.

 

[Coug95man2]

- He accounts for 10% of our bowl appearances in just 3 years after the previous staff won 9 games in 4 years.

- This was also the first time we returned to the post season in a decade

- He's building the program from the trenches. Yet bringing in skill position people, secondary is fairly worry some, but hopefully that will get better now that their are fresh faces around the defense.

- For the first time in 7 years we had 2 players drafted in the NFL.

- We beat USC (first time in 10 years) in the coliseum (13 years)

- We've broken numerous passing records with a QB that was never healthy 100% of the season and hasn't been in the system entirely from the beginning or recruited by him.

- We've finished in recruiting 3 of his 4 recruiting classes ranked in the Top half (60+) according to rivals. The last time we did that was 2004-2006

- He makes changes necessary personnel wise

- He holds players accountable off the field and in the classroom. Yes occasionally there are still arrests and problems, but it's a lot less than what it was, and yes if you screw up you will get booted, and he's not afraid to do it.

- The number of BCS offers our recruits have is tremendously higher

- He doesn't bs you and he's always extremely consistent. I don't feel like the coach is a used car salesman which is nice.

I think Tron highlights most of my thoughts.

It isn't just about "give him more time" or "rebuilding takes time" even though that is all true. It's advancing other aspects in conjunction with the idea of "time". That's where Wulff failed and didn't get the benefit of "time", at least from me.

Just one small example and a more detailed explanation:
Some have pointed out that our recruiting has remained relatively the same ranking in the Pac12, bouncing from 10 to 12. "How horrible a recruiting job he's done!!! He hasn't improved our standing at all!!!" While that statistic is accurate and true, it's ignoring the national ranking. We went from 80-100 in the nation, to 50-60. I've said from day 1, I want to see improvement. I'm not going to cherry pick certain statistics to forward my "feelings" about a person. I look at ALL the statistics (reliable ones, meaning let's not bring up that weird cup thing SoCal brought up a while back) and go from there. So to me, the recruiting rankings are improving! We were so close last year to really breaking through, it killed me when the class fell apart. But look at that statement. It "fell apart" and we were 54th? in the nation. Wulff could only rub a bottle to get a class that good. Hence the difference between my reaction to Wulff vs. Leach. Now to clarify, I'll also compare Leaches classes at TT and what brought him success there, as a barometer. So if Leach is around for 10 years, I don't expect us to be ranked in the Top 10 nationally, either.

The recruiting ranking is just one example and reason I give Leach more time than Wulff.

That does not give Leach a free pass, by any means. It buys him a couple years. You're question seems to intimate that if we support Leach, he's God. No. He has only bought himself a few years (assuming all things stay the same as now) before he gets fired or has an incredibly hot seat and I grab a pitchfork. If things continue to move forward, he'll have bought more time, at least in my eyes.

 

[Fab5Coug]

Jesus ban nookie and sponge already. They turn a decent thread into spam.

Layering O/D line talent.
Dipping into JC ranks to get help now
We are a functional special teams away from being a bowl team
We are a functional D away from being a bowl team
Leach is a smart guy and hasn't forgotten how to coach.

To play devils advocate a bit here, the fact 2 of 3 units on the team are still at "non functional" status, 3 years into the program is very concerning to me.

 

[MikeFingLeach]

Good point Fab. To be fair, ST and D were very functional in 2013. Last year, everything that could go wrong did.

 

[chinookpirate]

To play devils advocate a bit here, the fact 2 of 3 units on the team are still at "non functional" status, 3 years into the program is very concerning to me.

My thoughts exactly. I find it rather easy to support Leach and simultaneously hold concerns based on performance to date.

 

[Coug1990]

My thoughts exactly. I find it rather easy to support Leach and simultaneously hold concerns based on performance to date.

If this were the case, nobody would have any problem with you. Not trying to flame here. You keep on saying you are in Leach's corner with reservations. OK, I understand that. But, 99% of your posts are negative regarding Leach and his program.

 

[chinookpirate]

I don't mainline hopium. I comment on what I see. Right now, I see 5 wins and no bowl game... you see more... so what?

 

[CougEd]

If this were the case, nobody would have any problem with you. Not trying to flame here. You keep on saying you are in Leach's corner with reservations. OK, I understand that. But, 99% of your posts are negative regarding Leach and his program.

I am thinking it is better to be critical and be supportive vs critical and non supportive.

 

[405 Coug]

He took over for Wulff, that's good enough for me.

 

[Coug1990]

I don't mainline hopium. I comment on what I see. Right now, I see 5 wins and no bowl game... you see more... so what?

What has Leach done well in his three years in Pullman?

 

[chinookpirate]

What has Leach done well in his three years in Pullman?

He' s won 7 conference games... Why do you ask?

 

[kayak15]

Let me add to my previous post that (1) he has shored up the team's academic progress and (2) we are no longer mentioned as contenders for the Fullmer Cup. Not directly, if at all, connected to gridiron success but I like it.

 

[kayak15]

To play devils advocate a bit here, the fact 2 of 3 units on the team are still at "non functional" status, 3 years into the program is very concerning to me.

Not the devil's advocate at all. This is a problem and concerning to us all. Classifying the two units as "non functional" is restrained and polite. Most of us would use more profane descriptions. But (he takes another swig of the KoolAid) Leach tends to the offense and hires others to handle defense and STs. The first year was a mess with Leach within a hair's breadth of losing it at times during media sessions. There were difficulties across the board. The second year we got lucky and caught lightning-in-a-bottle. Furney was nails and problems on D were not glaringly apparent. The third year- the one you mentioned- Furney was gone on STs as were Deonne and Gauta on D. The new kids in the secondary were eaten alive. In short, the wheels of the two units fell off. The first two years of Leach's contract the situation were either not as sorrowful as the third or, at least, not as obvious. It was not until the third year that the feces hit the fan and even a blind man could see and smell it. So Leach did what he had to do. He admitted hiring errors and hit the reset button. Yes, the failures are on him as he is the one who hired Russell and Breske in the first place. Perhaps he needs to become more involved with those two factors. If Grinch and Mele cannot right the two ships then I don't know what we do. Let Moos select the third hires I suppose. Anyway, I think there are reasons that it took until the third year for the situation to manifest itself fully. A record setting offense certainly highlights the problems by comparison. If something is not done and soon then we will all be getting out on the ledge. Our concerns will be replaced by horrified panic.

 

[Coug1990]

He' s won 7 conference games... Why do you ask?

So you are happy with the 7 conference wins? Is that correct?

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Leach has done some good things in his time at WSU and given the failures and excuses of Wulff's tenure, it's no surprise that many of our fans are grateful for something else. The problem that I have with Leach is that I think that it's quite possible that Wulff would have led WSU to a 6-7 season in 2013. It really wasn't an accomplishment in my book. It's kind of like getting excited about the first time your kid takes a dump in the toilet on his own. It's great for you as a fan of your own kid, but none of your friends are going to come to a party to celebrate it.

The win in LA against USC in 2013 and pulling off surprising wins against Utah and Arizona give me hope. The general landscape of WSU football IS improving. However, the actual winning part still kind of sucks and we have a lot of people spending a lot of time making excuses. Leach is kind of feeling like Wulff in that respect. I'm still hopeful that Leach is the guy but as far as I'm concerned, he's got two seasons to get us back into a bowl game or it's over. Nothing will happen if we don't make it to a bowl game this year other than people bitching. No bowl game in 2016 and we have to acknowledge that Leach's time has come and gone. If we keep him around at that point, we should have saved the money and just kept Wulff.

 

[Coug95man2]

Leach has done some good things in his time at WSU and given the failures and excuses of Wulff's tenure, it's no surprise that many of our fans are grateful for something else. The problem that I have with Leach is that I think that it's quite possible that Wulff would have led WSU to a 6-7 season in 2013. It really wasn't an accomplishment in my book. It's kind of like getting excited about the first time your kid takes a dump in the toilet on his own. It's great for you as a fan of your own kid, but none of your friends are going to come to a party to celebrate it.

The win in LA against USC in 2013 and pulling off surprising wins against Utah and Arizona give me hope. The general landscape of WSU football IS improving. However, the actual winning part still kind of sucks and we have a lot of people spending a lot of time making excuses. Leach is kind of feeling like Wulff in that respect. I'm still hopeful that Leach is the guy but as far as I'm concerned, he's got two seasons to get us back into a bowl game or it's over. Nothing will happen if we don't make it to a bowl game this year other than people bitching. No bowl game in 2016 and we have to acknowledge that Leach's time has come and gone. If we keep him around at that point, we should have saved the money and just kept Wulff.

But where does the scale start to tip in keeping him? I mean I can find weird things that could happen like a lacerated liver or a broken leg that could completely torpedo a season. For some, that might give him another year because that would be completely out of Leach's control. Or is it completely black and white. No bowl, go away CML… ? It seems to me, there are many here that have the very "black & white" perspective. I guess I can see so many shades of gray, here.

 

[wulffui]

I just don't see a "Wulff Bowl in 2013" in hindsight as even a modest possibility. Wulff doesn't get Mayle, Gauta, Sagote, for starters.

And nothing in four years of watching Wulff game coach- not talent, per se, but his in-game decisions- would make me think he'd beat USC one time in a hundred, let alone the one time.

I'm still looking forward to what the coach we have now will do. And since he's left here, the "Coach Wulff: Hindsight's Warrior" tome hasn't added any good chapters. So why do people keep adding to that book?

This is the first year they really get mature players, recruited by this coach, and that is somewhat exciting. Imagining things the last coach might have done if he could coach... isn't.

 

[MikeFingLeach]

Leach has done some good things in his time at WSU and given the failures and excuses of Wulff's tenure, it's no surprise that many of our fans are grateful for something else. The problem that I have with Leach is that I think that it's quite possible that Wulff would have led WSU to a 6-7 season in 2013. It really wasn't an accomplishment in my book. It's kind of like getting excited about the first time your kid takes a dump in the toilet on his own. It's great for you as a fan of your own kid, but none of your friends are going to come to a party to celebrate it.

The win in LA against USC in 2013 and pulling off surprising wins against Utah and Arizona give me hope. The general landscape of WSU football IS improving. However, the actual winning part still kind of sucks and we have a lot of people spending a lot of time making excuses. Leach is kind of feeling like Wulff in that respect. I'm still hopeful that Leach is the guy but as far as I'm concerned, he's got two seasons to get us back into a bowl game or it's over. Nothing will happen if we don't make it to a bowl game this year other than people bitching. No bowl game in 2016 and we have to acknowledge that Leach's time has come and gone. If we keep him around at that point, we should have saved the money and just kept Wulff.

Flat,

Are you sober? You say Wulff would've finished 6-7 in 2013 so you're not impressed. The next paragraph you say the wins against USC, AZ, and Utah in 2013 give you hope.

Finally, you wrap up with a doozy...if Leach doesn't work out we should've just kept Wulff?!?! Like the two are mutually exclusive or something? WSU is a power 5 school and we are paying a coach market wage. We have options. Talk about a defeatist, Coug loser attitude.