Just wondering how the event was. First time in a while I haven't made it
Heard the turn out was way down this year.
Heard the turn out was way down this year.
Anyone make it to ANWCF - PDX?
- Thread starter BleedCrimsonandGray
- Start date
Rumor has it
that CML and Cindy Brunson were at their peak. Jack Thompson tweeted that CML was cracking jokes and Brunson with CML was worth the price of admission. Don't know about attendance...
The word I got was no advance marketing. That makes absolutely no sense, so maybe the person responsible for that got the flu? I can't make any sense out of it.
I also can't make a lot of sense out of doing it on a Sunday, if my understanding of the date is correct.
But what do I know? I live in So Cal.
I also can't make a lot of sense out of doing it on a Sunday, if my understanding of the date is correct.
But what do I know? I live in So Cal.
I didn't go to that one this year because I've since moved from the area. I can try to gather a report if still wanted.
Truth be told, I helped organize and run this event for the previous 6 years.
Certain things have happened over the past 3 years that have severely impacted the turn out, and if not for CML coming on the PDX event would have been very poorly attended each of the previous 2 years as well, IMHO.
The powers that be have a HUGE hard-on for having the event on the Nike campus, so they are limited to whichever weekends are open by the time they decide to book, which last year was extremely late. We have so many great venues in Portland, but apparently it just HAS to be Nike. Idk, don't ask me. Its nice, but besides some free hats Nike does absolutely nothing to accommodate the event or the Cougs - full price for catering and the use of the facility. I just don't get it. (Oh, they hand out Nike employee store passes... how generous to give us the chance to spend money with your company on 1 year old gear.)
With the change from Dan Meyer to Uri F, there was a lot of people asleep at the wheel. Uri claimed that they hit the phones and sent out emails (got the second, not the first), but apparently it wasn't enough.
I can't say that I'm enthusiastic with the direction the event has been taken recently (attempting to be exclusive, to the point of thinking they can pick and choose who to invite, failure to maximize the amount of money they can raise), and though I've voiced my concerned it has been made clear to me that this is how its going to be run. Which IMHO is poorly.
Anyway, a little behind the scenes. I'm sure that for someone just attending the event and not planning it the event is still really nice.
I have no idea who those to men are, nor do I care. What I do know is this, WSU does a piss poor job of taking care of relationships. They just miss the mark on how to treat people. You want their money? Maybe a lil more then an email campaign would help? Maybe more than a phone call once per year would help? And the idea of having something exclusive, okay. But what's the barrier of entry into business? How much do you have to donate to then be allowed to pay to go to an event where the head coach speaks? And why is this exclusive event so secret? If you want to develop and farm donors why not at least get the word out that there's a $500 per plate dinner?
Amazing to me how poorly WSU athletics is run still. If they were smart they'd hire someone from the SEC that knows how to throw a party and make people feel like they're taken care of.
Amazing to me how poorly WSU athletics is run still. If they were smart they'd hire someone from the SEC that knows how to throw a party and make people feel like they're taken care of.
You hit the nail on the head.
For both Seattle and E. Washington they have individuals assigned to create, foster, and maintain relationships with alum. The last person they had in the PDX area was Ryan Topper, former MBB player. That was about 5 or 6 years ago and they have yet to fill his position, instead opting to have a person from Pullman do the job.
I guess my feeling on this whole CAF thing is this: our attitude when I was deeply involved was "lets get as many people as we can, turn them upside down and shake as much $$ as we can out of them FOR THE COUGS."
Now the prevailing attitude is: "Lets go fishing for the biggest whales out there, screw the small guys, and we'll all sit around clinking our champagne glasses." Basically, an ol' boys club. Look at the pictures of the events - same dozen guys in all the pics (who aren't HUGE donors, btw. and I'm not referring to the former athletes that come to the events.)
Its a shame because this event had typically raised $60k for the Cougs. We had a chance to expand the event to 400+ people (up from ~300), but due to the Nike and exclusivity attitude they chose not to get those extra 100 people involved; literally turned them away. I mean, I get it to a point; we don't want a jeans and t-shirt/ keystone light event (not that there isn't a time or place for that...), but turning away 100 ppl at $125/ plate, plus money in their pocket for the auction... I just don't get it.
If you wanna have an event for the wine and cheese crowd, do it. If you wanna have an event for the beer and sausage crowd, do that too.
The key is to do BOTH events WELL. WSU has chosen to do one event poorly.
WSU, with its wealth of rich football tradition and 10 bowls games in 100 years, should have no problem finding alums and donors lining up to donate tens of thousands of dollars.
Put out a consistently good product and I think you'll see more people want to be involved and maybe even grow their donations. Put out a consistently disappointing product, this is where you're at.
For a school built for agricultural education, WSU sure seems to be struggling on how to grow and farm donors.
The key is to do BOTH events WELL. WSU has chosen to do one event poorly.
WSU, with its wealth of rich football tradition and 10 bowls games in 100 years, should have no problem finding alums and donors lining up to donate tens of thousands of dollars.
Put out a consistently good product and I think you'll see more people want to be involved and maybe even grow their donations. Put out a consistently disappointing product, this is where you're at.
For a school built for agricultural education, WSU sure seems to be struggling on how to grow and farm donors.
Well, hope I didn't offend.
I am, or at least was, very passionate about volunteering and raising money for the Cougs. Not so much any more.
Might be wrong, but that event, I believe, was posted on the official website quite some time ago. As you can see in the link, there's another event Feb. 27. Maybe Ed will buy the beer.
official website
The issue isn't getting active Cougs involved; guys like us go to wsucougars.com, donate to the CAF already.
What Biggs is addressing is reaching out to the thousands of alumnus that haven't given before, or perhaps stopped giving. How are they being contacted? Plain and simple - the aren't.
I'll make the trek to Seattle if Ed is buying, btw. (FWIW, beer and wine are usually free at these events.)
This post was edited on 2/10 10:11 AM by BleedCrimsonandGray
Great lineOriginally posted by BiggsCoug:
If you wanna have an event for the wine and cheese crowd, do it. If you wanna have an event for the beer and sausage crowd, do that too.
The key is to do BOTH events WELL. WSU has chosen to do one event poorly.
WSU, with its wealth of rich football tradition and 10 bowls games in 100 years, should have no problem finding alums and donors lining up to donate tens of thousands of dollars.
Put out a consistently good product and I think you'll see more people want to be involved and maybe even grow their donations. Put out a consistently disappointing product, this is where you're at.
For a school built for agricultural education, WSU sure seems to be struggling on how to grow and farm donors.
Biggs' initial point: "Turnout was probably down because no one heard about it. I live 30 mins away and had no idea it was happening."
Who doesn't know about the official website? Besides, Biggs' point went from "WSU doesn't let people know about these events" to the larger issue of not reaching out to build "relationships." But I've heard people complain that WSU is now more concerned about well-to-do alumni and not so much with Joe Plumber. I've heard the same complaints made by Oregon fans.
If ED's buying, I'll be there too.
I don't think WSU is a position to not accept money from all realms.
Also, Biggs - that was a great line about growth.
There have been threads on WSU's ineptitude in the area of marketing for as long as I have been reading the online material. Moos's arrival gave me hope that this would be addressed and there have been some improvements but we still have a long way to go.
I have no experience whatsoever in marketing. That said, even I know that just posting things on the official website and making a phone call or sending an email is insufficient. Prospective clients should not have to search for what you are selling and a single or a couple of contacts without follow up is insufficient. The school needs to aggressively reach out to the alumni and do so repeatedly.
One example of the failure to attend to the clientele stands out to me. I believe it was Father's Day and the Bookie was jam packed before the game. There were five spots in the checkout counter area. Only three were staffed resulting in a line extending deeply into the store. Why the empty checkout spots still baffles me. Even I know better than that. I wonder how many people came in, saw the line and decided to return later and then never did. WSU undoubtedly lost some sales that day that, with a couple of temporary employees, they could have easily made.
It seems to me that the school adopts a "if we build it they will come" attitude regarding marketing. Little attention or effort to details. Just put it out there and then sit back to see what happens. A bit more thinking and effort in the process would help. Floyd and Moos would do well to get the Business Administration faculty involved. It is apparent to me that it is not. "Build it and they will come" made for a great baseball movie but it's a piss poor way to run a business.
I have no experience whatsoever in marketing. That said, even I know that just posting things on the official website and making a phone call or sending an email is insufficient. Prospective clients should not have to search for what you are selling and a single or a couple of contacts without follow up is insufficient. The school needs to aggressively reach out to the alumni and do so repeatedly.
One example of the failure to attend to the clientele stands out to me. I believe it was Father's Day and the Bookie was jam packed before the game. There were five spots in the checkout counter area. Only three were staffed resulting in a line extending deeply into the store. Why the empty checkout spots still baffles me. Even I know better than that. I wonder how many people came in, saw the line and decided to return later and then never did. WSU undoubtedly lost some sales that day that, with a couple of temporary employees, they could have easily made.
It seems to me that the school adopts a "if we build it they will come" attitude regarding marketing. Little attention or effort to details. Just put it out there and then sit back to see what happens. A bit more thinking and effort in the process would help. Floyd and Moos would do well to get the Business Administration faculty involved. It is apparent to me that it is not. "Build it and they will come" made for a great baseball movie but it's a piss poor way to run a business.
Kayak, I've often felt that our athletic department was inept when it came to marketing. For decades and decades.
Does that mean that the WSU school of business does not have a good marketing department? Or does it mean that the athletic department ignores them? I suppose it could be both they are not mutually exclusive.
Does that mean that the WSU school of business does not have a good marketing department? Or does it mean that the athletic department ignores them? I suppose it could be both they are not mutually exclusive.
I think we've all heard Moos' "if you don't have skin in the game we don't want/ need you", but that is a classic chicken and egg scenario. How can you get people to get skin in the game if you completely ignore them? ESPECIALLY when the product you have been selling for the past 10 years is the equivalent of a '76 Pinto, complete with exploding gas tank.
What irks me the most is that this strategy is purposeful. They aren't inept - that would imply that they don't know what they are doing. No, they are stupid (as far as marketing), and that is putting it nicely.
WSU athletics has done a piss poor job of bringing people into the fold and the lack of success hasn't helped. The attitude of the alums/fans reflects the leadership from the university. It's only in the last few years that WSU has really decided that they want to play big boy football. Why would you be surprised at a lack of financial support from alums/fans when there's a lack of financial support from the university! WSU goes to the Rose Bowl twice in 6 years, a Heisman finalist, an Outland Trophy winner, highest point of WSU football in 100 years... no money in the vault for coaches raises. And WSU wonders why alums and fans won't show up or donate? The f*cking administration won't do the same.
So now here they are. They've got a windfall of cash from the TV deal. They've got new buildings. They've hired a brand name coach and actually pay market value for coaching salaries. But they're salty that alums/fans don't donate. Well, hate to break it to you but there was no TV money checks sent to fans/alums so they could donate. I didn't wake up in the morning with another million in my checking account that I could donate and neither did the rest of alums. So to be pissy that WSU has pushed their chips in and alums haven't is stupid. WSU got $22 million chips to push in that is essentially found money. Fans/alums didn't. If you want their money maybe you should get out and hustle for it???
If I were directing fundraising I'd do a few things...
1) I'd hire and then train an army of telemarketers. All students on campus currently. Then they'd spend the next 5 years calling every single alum they can find. It'd be a huge campaign to collect information. WSU needs to find out where alums are at. Who is in, who is out, who is on the fence. Then move forward.
2) I'd create the Cougar Corps. Not the Cougar Army. Anyone can join the Army. It takes more to be in the Corps.
3) Your rank would be determined by attendance and donation. I like the idea of farming for $20 donations to get people involved. The last thing you wanna do is turn a big donor into a small donor. Give people that want to write large checks some recognition and a way to choose what level they want to be at. Keep in mind, WSU may or may not have any idea who they're talking to. It could be an alum with $500 in the bank or an alum with $5 million in the bank. Collect the information on people and then move on from there.
4) After 5 years of this I think you'll know who is in and who is out. You've also had a chance to nurse along anyone that was on the fence. At this point whoever is out is out. Stop contacting them, they've made their choice. Let them come back to you. Whoever is in, start growing their commitment. Some may only be $50 donors. That's cool. Some others may be willing to move forward, help them. Build relationships with these people. Throw good gameday parties and call and invite them. Get them on campus. Get them having a good time. Get their money. Whoever is on the fence, help them choose. Invite them to events, call them on the phone, something, anything to push them over the fence. If they're in, great. If they're not, fine.
5) Focus on current student body. You have a captive audience to teach how to take care of your school. There should be a class that every student WANTS to take. Why? Cause it's a class that always has an awesome WSU alum come to speak. Grade it on attendance. Fill the room with students so fired up and passionate about WSU and it's PEOPLE that when they leave they want to do great things and one day give back to the school. You have thousands of potential donors already on campus, GROW THEM!
WSU has been either too dumb or too afraid to act. It's just time to change. Good grief, they don't have someone in Portland in charge of alumni relations, events, relationships and donations? If I were the president at WSU that either gets fixed today or someone gets fired today.
So now here they are. They've got a windfall of cash from the TV deal. They've got new buildings. They've hired a brand name coach and actually pay market value for coaching salaries. But they're salty that alums/fans don't donate. Well, hate to break it to you but there was no TV money checks sent to fans/alums so they could donate. I didn't wake up in the morning with another million in my checking account that I could donate and neither did the rest of alums. So to be pissy that WSU has pushed their chips in and alums haven't is stupid. WSU got $22 million chips to push in that is essentially found money. Fans/alums didn't. If you want their money maybe you should get out and hustle for it???
If I were directing fundraising I'd do a few things...
1) I'd hire and then train an army of telemarketers. All students on campus currently. Then they'd spend the next 5 years calling every single alum they can find. It'd be a huge campaign to collect information. WSU needs to find out where alums are at. Who is in, who is out, who is on the fence. Then move forward.
2) I'd create the Cougar Corps. Not the Cougar Army. Anyone can join the Army. It takes more to be in the Corps.
3) Your rank would be determined by attendance and donation. I like the idea of farming for $20 donations to get people involved. The last thing you wanna do is turn a big donor into a small donor. Give people that want to write large checks some recognition and a way to choose what level they want to be at. Keep in mind, WSU may or may not have any idea who they're talking to. It could be an alum with $500 in the bank or an alum with $5 million in the bank. Collect the information on people and then move on from there.
4) After 5 years of this I think you'll know who is in and who is out. You've also had a chance to nurse along anyone that was on the fence. At this point whoever is out is out. Stop contacting them, they've made their choice. Let them come back to you. Whoever is in, start growing their commitment. Some may only be $50 donors. That's cool. Some others may be willing to move forward, help them. Build relationships with these people. Throw good gameday parties and call and invite them. Get them on campus. Get them having a good time. Get their money. Whoever is on the fence, help them choose. Invite them to events, call them on the phone, something, anything to push them over the fence. If they're in, great. If they're not, fine.
5) Focus on current student body. You have a captive audience to teach how to take care of your school. There should be a class that every student WANTS to take. Why? Cause it's a class that always has an awesome WSU alum come to speak. Grade it on attendance. Fill the room with students so fired up and passionate about WSU and it's PEOPLE that when they leave they want to do great things and one day give back to the school. You have thousands of potential donors already on campus, GROW THEM!
WSU has been either too dumb or too afraid to act. It's just time to change. Good grief, they don't have someone in Portland in charge of alumni relations, events, relationships and donations? If I were the president at WSU that either gets fixed today or someone gets fired today.
I think the basics of "how to grow a program" comes from 2 paths.
One is the product, at some point in history, had an upswing and the fans came out, supported, and the stars aligned (or more likely the coaching staff worked hard enough) to make the upswing year carry into a second and third and fourth year of upswing. They had this "upswing" and rode the wave, sort of speak. We had this potential with our 3x10 but we didn't capitalize on it, for a multitude of reasons.
The second is the kind of work you are talking about Biggs. The hard part with everything you are saying is, it takes money. I don't know the specifics regarding the P12Network money payments but from what I understand, we've spent money we don't even have. So to "hire and then train an army of telemarketers" or to "create the Cougar Corps" and to do all of this with a 5 year investment before "you'll know who is in and who is out" is assuming some serious financial backing.
The only reason we have the buildings we have is the P12Network. And we spent that money before we even had it. So really, we have the same budget we had 5 years ago meaning we don't have a budget. We are currently in the same financial situation Sterk was in, only we have beautiful, shiny new buildings to create a wave. NOW, they are waiting for the wave to come, fans to hop on in order to create the first, above scenario
I like your ideas, Biggs. but you are assuming there is some magical money maker, besides the Pac12Network (since we've already used up all of that money, from what I understand), that will finance this 5 year endeavor before we even begin to see the financial rewards for it.
I'm not saying what they are doing now is a good thing but to look at this realistically, we need to look at it through the prism of "Sterk Budget" world at least the way I understand the Pac12Network money and WSU's financial books. We've had a surge in attendance but is it enough for 5 years without gain? Don't know.
One is the product, at some point in history, had an upswing and the fans came out, supported, and the stars aligned (or more likely the coaching staff worked hard enough) to make the upswing year carry into a second and third and fourth year of upswing. They had this "upswing" and rode the wave, sort of speak. We had this potential with our 3x10 but we didn't capitalize on it, for a multitude of reasons.
The second is the kind of work you are talking about Biggs. The hard part with everything you are saying is, it takes money. I don't know the specifics regarding the P12Network money payments but from what I understand, we've spent money we don't even have. So to "hire and then train an army of telemarketers" or to "create the Cougar Corps" and to do all of this with a 5 year investment before "you'll know who is in and who is out" is assuming some serious financial backing.
The only reason we have the buildings we have is the P12Network. And we spent that money before we even had it. So really, we have the same budget we had 5 years ago meaning we don't have a budget. We are currently in the same financial situation Sterk was in, only we have beautiful, shiny new buildings to create a wave. NOW, they are waiting for the wave to come, fans to hop on in order to create the first, above scenario
I like your ideas, Biggs. but you are assuming there is some magical money maker, besides the Pac12Network (since we've already used up all of that money, from what I understand), that will finance this 5 year endeavor before we even begin to see the financial rewards for it.
I'm not saying what they are doing now is a good thing but to look at this realistically, we need to look at it through the prism of "Sterk Budget" world at least the way I understand the Pac12Network money and WSU's financial books. We've had a surge in attendance but is it enough for 5 years without gain? Don't know.
You have to spend money to make money. If that means taking out loans, do it. If you've already taken out loans, take more. What bank is going to decline WSU's request for a loan with the PAC 12 TV money coming in? It's not like the TV money is gonna dry up or get smaller. More than likely it will only get bigger.
This isn't a time to be tempered. It's a time to swing for grand slams, not worry about hitting singles. Looking at things thru Sterk's eyes put WSU into the cellar so far it's going to take a Herculean effort to get it back. And that's what you're suggesting is the answer? I don't agree.
This isn't a time to be tempered. It's a time to swing for grand slams, not worry about hitting singles. Looking at things thru Sterk's eyes put WSU into the cellar so far it's going to take a Herculean effort to get it back. And that's what you're suggesting is the answer? I don't agree.
No, that's not what I said, Biggs. But the actual financial situation is the same now as then, with an uptick in attendance. That's all. I'm not saying to be confined to the cellar, I'm not saying to be satisfied with nothing, but don't pretend that we have this instant cash flow, either. Like I said, I like your ideas better than mine because I don't have any ideas! But I also know we have ZERO cash flow. And to just be able to blink my eyes hard, wiggle my nose and someone/something is going to give us millions of dollars is a naive premise. State entities, even the sports dept. of a State entity, doesn't just "take out a loan". I'm trying to look at the situation through the prism of financial reality Don't know what prism your looking through but it ain't financial reality.
Here's my point... We're talking about college football. There is no financial reality. You have guys coaching running backs making $400,000 per year at some schools. This is an industry of faking it till you make it.
Looking at in through the prism of financial reality means WSU doesn't have a football ops building or a stadium remodel or a $2M head coach. All Im saying is you pay some college kids to make phone calls. And WSU doesn't have money for that? While they have $60M, or got $60M, for a football ops building??? WSU should apply for membership to the Big Sky then.
Looking at in through the prism of financial reality means WSU doesn't have a football ops building or a stadium remodel or a $2M head coach. All Im saying is you pay some college kids to make phone calls. And WSU doesn't have money for that? While they have $60M, or got $60M, for a football ops building??? WSU should apply for membership to the Big Sky then.
Never mind, man. Any way I put this, I sound like a Debbie Downer and someone that's trying to piss in your Corn Flakes. Love your passion.
To your point, I get frequent communications from the University of Georgia looping me in on "watching" parties for all of our games, broken out by states and major cities. Also about the goings-on of my particular college within UGA and other university happenings. I get other special offers for road ticket bundles and more. This is through phone, email, magazines and letters. As a result, awareness is so high that I've actually found other UGA grads through it who want to go catch a game or hang out, and I've lived in several cities way outside of GA.
I've never donated to UGA.
I *have* donated to WSU and become a CAF member, despite never receiving any communications other than a freaking Call-A-Coug fundraising phoner begging for $$$. I never got confirmation of my CAF gift, even through email, so clearly they don't even have an effective system set up to acknowledge donations.
Point is, I'm paying WSU and they don't seem to know I exist. I don't even acknowledge UGA and they go the extra mile every month.
In SoCal the local alum group stages football watch parties at 3 spots scattered around the LA basin. Once on that mailing list, you are there for life. Sounds as though UGA does that from the home office, rather than relying on the local groups.
The comments and observations from Chip and Biggs are right on the money. If the Univ. of Georgia can reach out to someone who has never expressed a previous interest in donating then why can't we? We have a lot of alumni who fall into that category.
Maybe Moos has been affected by his previous affiliation with the U. of O in his emphasis on large donors. But WSU has no such Phil Knight type to my knowledge. We do, however, have many potential small donors. Get them involved. If a recent grad can only cough up 20$ or someone more established in their professional life can spare 50$, fine. Give them a bit of polite recognition and keep them involved. In time the recent grad's continued involvement in school affairs will move him/her up to a 50$ donation. And the 50$ donor will move up to 100$ and so forth. Maybe their renewed involvement with the school will result in attendance in Martin or Beazley (sp?). Moos's comment regarding "skin in the game" is misplaced. We shouldn't be driving those people away, we should be going after them and doing so repeatedly even if it only results in a token donation now. Over time this will grow. We have to start building this somewhere and I firmly believe that a lot more emphasis on small donors is the way to go. Moos has and will continue to have personal contact with the more affluent class. One of the posters- and I forget who- mentioned getting a "Cougar Corps" involved and employing students to make the calls. This, to me, is an obvious and excellent way to go. Cougs don't have the business skills of UGA? From my experience I would guess not but hope that the people in Pullman can prove me wrong. If it is indeed true that "Once a Coug, always a Coug" then the foundation and prospect of success is certainly there. Today the relationship seems half-hearted and sloppy.
This post was edited on 2/11 10:31 PM by kayak15
Maybe Moos has been affected by his previous affiliation with the U. of O in his emphasis on large donors. But WSU has no such Phil Knight type to my knowledge. We do, however, have many potential small donors. Get them involved. If a recent grad can only cough up 20$ or someone more established in their professional life can spare 50$, fine. Give them a bit of polite recognition and keep them involved. In time the recent grad's continued involvement in school affairs will move him/her up to a 50$ donation. And the 50$ donor will move up to 100$ and so forth. Maybe their renewed involvement with the school will result in attendance in Martin or Beazley (sp?). Moos's comment regarding "skin in the game" is misplaced. We shouldn't be driving those people away, we should be going after them and doing so repeatedly even if it only results in a token donation now. Over time this will grow. We have to start building this somewhere and I firmly believe that a lot more emphasis on small donors is the way to go. Moos has and will continue to have personal contact with the more affluent class. One of the posters- and I forget who- mentioned getting a "Cougar Corps" involved and employing students to make the calls. This, to me, is an obvious and excellent way to go. Cougs don't have the business skills of UGA? From my experience I would guess not but hope that the people in Pullman can prove me wrong. If it is indeed true that "Once a Coug, always a Coug" then the foundation and prospect of success is certainly there. Today the relationship seems half-hearted and sloppy.
This post was edited on 2/11 10:31 PM by kayak15
Don't mean to bump this to the top again, but I just wanted to point out one other thing:
Our old group that had been organizing this event were regular posters on BX and this board. We'd come and hype it up before hand and give updates on the event afterwards. It helped raise awareness and also helped to fill seats, imho.
This year: not a single post on either board, save this one, about the event(s). I just think they are missing the target on so many levels, and its frustrating to me because it is just people having their head so far up their own a$$.
Our old group that had been organizing this event were regular posters on BX and this board. We'd come and hype it up before hand and give updates on the event afterwards. It helped raise awareness and also helped to fill seats, imho.
This year: not a single post on either board, save this one, about the event(s). I just think they are missing the target on so many levels, and its frustrating to me because it is just people having their head so far up their own a$$.
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