Arizona schools

[Brent H.]

What is amazing about RichRod and Todd Graham is how much they berate their players on the sidelines and there is nothing said. RichRod was just going off on his players today, which is fine, that is how coaches. But we have players parents telling Brand X that Leach would rip this son in film study in private and our fans are like "Oh, no, that is not how you handle things." I guess the question is, if WSU was winning would they really care? Nope, Nick Saban does this all the time and he gets credited for "coaching hard". Leach gets after players in private team meetings and our fans have real issues with it.

Everybody must have felt that Leach was left a 10 win team because Wulff said before he got fired it was a 10 win team. And guess what? If Leach doesn't win, he will get fired, our AD isn't the one to sit on his hands. But if you want to talk about a person that really had to clean out the stables, it is Leach. This school was an absolute dumpster fire to epic proportions and I don't think any casual fan had a damn clue about how bad it really was.

 

[Norbert1]

Rich Rod is a screamer for sure. But the real question does he tell the media the players suck? Does he make the entire offensive line (or defensive line) go face the media but not the position coaches? That is where Leach goes overboard!

 

[wulffui]

I'd read a book about the Wulff era, told by some Doba/Wulff players and coaches. I think we'd lose even more innocence having that out there.

 

[sellas]

John Mackovic to Mike Stoops to Rich Rod.....

nobody could belittle and be an a$$ more than Mackovic.

 

[bhamm03]

Did anyone see the the reaction between Anu and Richrod towards the end of the game. Anu said something and Richrod backed away and paced down the sideline almost looking like he is about to blow a gasket.

 

[dgibbons]

In secret RichRod gives out warm hugs. Graham gives his players a raspberry

If you win, it's hard coaching. If you lose, mean people suck.

I missed the beginning of the game. But Solomon singlehandedly destroyed their chance to take the lead from what I saw.

 

[earldacoug]

Good post Brent. both Az school coaches are yellers and F bombers on the sidelines. Graham seems to be the worst to me. interesting how they get away with that behavior and nothing much is said about it.

 

[Observer11]

Originally posted by Brent H.:
What is amazing about RichRod and Todd Graham is how much they berate their players on the sidelines and there is nothing said. RichRod was just going off on his players today, which is fine, that is how coaches. But we have players parents telling Brand X that Leach would rip this son in film study in private and our fans are like "Oh, no, that is not how you handle things." I guess the question is, if WSU was winning would they really care? Nope, Nick Saban does this all the time and he gets credited for "coaching hard". Leach gets after players in private team meetings and our fans have real issues with it.

Everybody must have felt that Leach was left a 10 win team because Wulff said before he got fired it was a 10 win team. And guess what? If Leach doesn't win, he will get fired, our AD isn't the one to sit on his hands. But if you want to talk about a person that really had to clean out the stables, it is Leach. This school was an absolute dumpster fire to epic proportions and I don't think any casual fan had a damn clue about how bad it really was.

Agree with the sentiment but the reality of Leach's contract provision make him essentially un-fireablel. WSU simply doesn't have the resources to choke down that dollar amount.



This post was edited on 1/1 10:59 AM by Observer11

 

[longtimecoug]

Originally posted by Norbert1:
Rich Rod is a screamer for sure. But the real question does he tell the media the players suck? Does he make the entire offensive line (or defensive line) go face the media but not the position coaches? That is where Leach goes overboard!

I've never heard leach say anything resembling that, as for the o-line facing the press, so what, quarterbacks have to do it all the time

 

[CougEd]

First, Leach will get seven years. He won't be fired by Moos.

Moos will have to quit and a new AD would have to make that decision.

Second, what Leach has done is no different than any other coach. They change a culture. Buy in or leave. There was culture shock when Wulff took over cause Doba was so permissive. Wulff took a harder line. When Leach took over there was culture shock, he pushed the kids harder than they have ever been pushed.

He didn't win the hearts and minds. If you stand a chance in coaching, a coach does not sacrifice what they believe to wins hearts and minds of 19-22 year old kids.

Monroe got beat out. You think Leach wanted Monroe to have the season he did? Leach thought enough about Monroe he took him to media day. You think Leach preferred a guy who clearly was slower than the previous starter but one kid made plays the other did not.

Good/great coaches do not sacrifice their belief systemWhether it is Leach, Graham, or whoever you want to put in that category. The moment you bend for 18-22 year olds you are toast. Kids walked all over Bill Doba.

 

[Coug1990]

Re: First, Leach will get seven years. He won't be fired by Moos.

Originally posted by CougEd:
Moos will have to quit and a new AD would have to make that decision.

Second, what Leach has done is no different than any other coach. They change a culture. Buy in or leave. There was culture shock when Wulff took over cause Doba was so permissive.

Wrong. Doba was not permissive. Doba treated them like men. Some took advantage of that.

Wulff took a harder line.

Wulff didn't take a harder line. Wulff came in with an attitude and treated many of the players like shit from day one.

When Leach took over there was culture shock, he pushed the kids harder than they have ever been pushed.

I agree. Leach had expectations. He told the team what was expected of them. Unfortunately, they were so used to the all talk and no work of Wulff, that it was a major culture shock.

He didn't win the hearts and minds. If you stand a chance in coaching, a coach does not sacrifice what they believe to wins hearts and minds of 19-22 year old kids.

I agree, Leach was not able to win the hearts and minds of the players. This is where we differ. As many us have written for years, Wulff came in with an attitude from day one and began his disrespect of players that first spring practice. We know that Leach was not happy with his teams effort that first year. Maybe he was an ass to his players like Wulff was from the beginning. Or, maybe he gave them a chance at the beginning and the players cut their own throats. I do not know.

Monroe got beat out. You think Leach wanted Monroe to have the season he did? Leach thought enough about Monroe he took him to media day. You think Leach preferred a guy who clearly was slower than the previous starter but one kid made plays the other did not.

Good/great coaches do not sacrifice their belief systemWhether it is Leach, Graham, or whoever you want to put in that category. The moment you bend for 18-22 year olds you are toast. Kids walked all over Bill Doba.

We have had this discussion before. There are players that did take advantage of things under Doba. There were players that took advantage of things under Wulff. The last two years of Doba was 6-6 and 5-7. For them supposedly walking all over Doba, they sure played a lot harder for him than they did for Wulff.

 

[Observer11]

Re: First, Leach will get seven years. He won't be fired by Moos.

Originally posted by Coug1990:

Originally posted by CougEd:
Moos will have to quit and a new AD would have to make that decision.

Second, what Leach has done is no different than any other coach. They change a culture. Buy in or leave. There was culture shock when Wulff took over cause Doba was so permissive.

Wrong. Doba was not permissive. Doba treated them like men. Some took advantage of that.

Wulff took a harder line.

Wulff didn't take a harder line. Wulff came in with an attitude and treated many of the players like shit from day one.

When Leach took over there was culture shock, he pushed the kids harder than they have ever been pushed.

I agree. Leach had expectations. He told the team what was expected of them. Unfortunately, they were so used to the all talk and no work of Wulff, that it was a major culture shock.

He didn't win the hearts and minds. If you stand a chance in coaching, a coach does not sacrifice what they believe to wins hearts and minds of 19-22 year old kids.

I agree, Leach was not able to win the hearts and minds of the players. This is where we differ. As many us have written for years, Wulff came in with an attitude from day one and began his disrespect of players that first spring practice. We know that Leach was not happy with his teams effort that first year. Maybe he was an ass to his players like Wulff was from the beginning. Or, maybe he gave them a chance at the beginning and the players cut their own throats. I do not know.

Monroe got beat out. You think Leach wanted Monroe to have the season he did? Leach thought enough about Monroe he took him to media day. You think Leach preferred a guy who clearly was slower than the previous starter but one kid made plays the other did not.

Good/great coaches do not sacrifice their belief systemWhether it is Leach, Graham, or whoever you want to put in that category. The moment you bend for 18-22 year olds you are toast. Kids walked all over Bill Doba.

We have had this discussion before. There are players that did take advantage of things under Doba. There were players that took advantage of things under Wulff. The last two years of Doba was 6-6 and 5-7. For them supposedly walking all over Doba, they sure played a lot harder for him than they did for Wulff.

It's unfortunate Ed mentioned Wulff in his post because otherwise his points are cogent and right on the mark.

It is time to stop comparing Leach to Wulff. It is time to compare Leach to expectations of success.

The only point I disagree strongly with is kids walking all over Doba. It was the assistants who walked all over him and didn't behave like role models and the kids followed suit. They were lax in their duties and became complacent. Doba wasn't Doba for a couple years but his track record over an entire career is one of mutual respect. You simply don't last that long in coaching unless you can connect with kids, and get them to perform. Even then, 6-6 was better than what we have now.

 

[Coug1990]

Re: First, Leach will get seven years. He won't be fired by Moos.

Originally posted by Observer11:

Originally posted by Coug1990:

Originally posted by CougEd:
Moos will have to quit and a new AD would have to make that decision.

Second, what Leach has done is no different than any other coach. They change a culture. Buy in or leave. There was culture shock when Wulff took over cause Doba was so permissive.

Wrong. Doba was not permissive. Doba treated them like men. Some took advantage of that.

Wulff took a harder line.

Wulff didn't take a harder line. Wulff came in with an attitude and treated many of the players like shit from day one.

When Leach took over there was culture shock, he pushed the kids harder than they have ever been pushed.

I agree. Leach had expectations. He told the team what was expected of them. Unfortunately, they were so used to the all talk and no work of Wulff, that it was a major culture shock.

He didn't win the hearts and minds. If you stand a chance in coaching, a coach does not sacrifice what they believe to wins hearts and minds of 19-22 year old kids.

I agree, Leach was not able to win the hearts and minds of the players. This is where we differ. As many us have written for years, Wulff came in with an attitude from day one and began his disrespect of players that first spring practice. We know that Leach was not happy with his teams effort that first year. Maybe he was an ass to his players like Wulff was from the beginning. Or, maybe he gave them a chance at the beginning and the players cut their own throats. I do not know.

Monroe got beat out. You think Leach wanted Monroe to have the season he did? Leach thought enough about Monroe he took him to media day. You think Leach preferred a guy who clearly was slower than the previous starter but one kid made plays the other did not.

Good/great coaches do not sacrifice their belief systemWhether it is Leach, Graham, or whoever you want to put in that category. The moment you bend for 18-22 year olds you are toast. Kids walked all over Bill Doba.

We have had this discussion before. There are players that did take advantage of things under Doba. There were players that took advantage of things under Wulff. The last two years of Doba was 6-6 and 5-7. For them supposedly walking all over Doba, they sure played a lot harder for him than they did for Wulff.

It's unfortunate Ed mentioned Wulff in his post because otherwise his points are cogent and right on the mark.

It is time to stop comparing Leach to Wulff. It is time to compare Leach to expectations of success.

The only point I disagree strongly with is kids walking all over Doba. It was the assistants who walked all over him and didn't behave like role models and the kids followed suit. They were lax in their duties and became complacent. Doba wasn't Doba for a couple years but his track record over an entire career is one of mutual respect. You simply don't last that long in coaching unless you can connect with kids, and get them to perform. Even then, 6-6 was better than what we have now.

I think there is a lot of truth about the coaches. Unfortunately, this all occurred when Doba was also focused on his wife dealing with cancer and ultimately, passing away. Last month I was listening to Ian Furness when he was interviewing Alex Brink. Ian had previously been squarely in the Doba is bad, Wulff is good camp. But, Ian said something about Brink recently telling him about things happening behind the scenes (but did not go into any detail) and that he had no idea what Doba was dealing with at the time.

 

[Observer11]

Re: First, Leach will get seven years. He won't be fired by Moos.


Those assistants screwed over Doba beyond belief. If Furness isn't tuned in enough to have known that a half dozen years ago, that's on him.

When Doba came back after his wife's death, he leaned on the guy who was loyal to him -Burtnett and he simply didn't have the 21st century recruiting connections to fill in the gaps of the assistants screwing around for two recruiting cycles.

In retrospect, forcing Doba to retire was a bad call. Perhaps a transitional period whereby someone like Ball could have been mentored up to the head coaching position would have saved the Wolff era from ever happening. The coach in waiting model worked at Oregon and is the same that Gonzaga uses in basketball. It certainly beats the 'splash' hire approach so far.

 

[Coug1990]

Re: First, Leach will get seven years. He won't be fired by Moos.

Originally posted by Observer11:

Those assistants screwed over Doba beyond belief. If Furness isn't tuned in enough to have known that a half dozen years ago, that's on him.

When Doba came back after his wife's death, he leaned on the guy who was loyal to him -Burtnett and he simply didn't have the 21st century recruiting connections to fill in the gaps of the assistants screwing around for two recruiting cycles.

In retrospect, forcing Doba to retire was a bad call. Perhaps a transitional period whereby someone like Ball could have been mentored up to the head coaching position would have saved the Wolff era from ever happening. The coach in waiting model worked at Oregon and is the same that Gonzaga uses in basketball. It certainly beats the 'splash' hire approach so far.

I don't think it was about the coaches, because that was well known. Heck, even Ken Greene's antics were on national TV. But, I don't really know. Regarding the Doba in a mentoring position for Ball, I had never thought of that. But, it would have turned out a lot better than what occurred.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

Interesting turn this thread has taken.

I have always thought highly of Bill Doba and have nothing bad to say about the man. My own wife went through chemo twice, 15 years apart, and if we had not caught both early (which is the most significant survival factor), I would have been in a similar boat to Bill. FWIW, I've given that a lot of thought and tend to view Bill's last few years through that prism.

Bill had a group of assistants that were capable if monitored and directly supervised. A few had morals/integrity issues (probably the most politically correct thing I can say about Ken Greene), but for the most part they were not a bad group of guys…if somebody was riding herd on them. They simply could not be counted upon to behave as adults when left to their own recognizance. And I can't throw any rocks at Burtnett, because that guy did everything he personally could to salvage the situation, especially the recruiting vacation that the staff collectively took.

My biggest gripe has always been with Phlugrad. If you are in a position of responsibility, then be responsible. The guy was our recruiting coordinator for 3 years and totally abdicated any managerial role. I was never sure whether that was more about wanting to be liked by everybody, or more about being a little on the lazy side. Most likely a combination of both. When he somehow talked himself into the Montana job it was easy to see how that would end. The stop at Oregon lasted long enough for them to figure him out, then he was gone.

I was also disappointed that Levy did not personally interject himself into the situation. He had both Cougar and professional standing, and if he had gotten some backbone and gotten after some of the other guys, he could have helped. I guess it just wasn't something that his personality would permit him to do, which was a shame for WSU and Bill Doba.

And of course, no discussion of this situation would be complete without noting that Sterk was an example of the Peter Principle at its finest. No help could have been expected from that quarter.

The transition idea with Ball might have worked, since Bill was back to coaching by that time and had a new recruiting coordinator in place. It is an intriguing "what if" thing to work through one's head. It is hard to see how it could have worked out worse than what we did, but there is no guarantee that it would have been better.

 

[dgibbons]

There was an opportunity for a succession plan

But Doba ended up naming himself as the DC. That position could have been used to groom a replacement.

 

[Observer11]

Re: There was an opportunity for a succession plan

Originally posted by dgibbons:
But Doba ended up naming himself as the DC. That position could have been used to groom a replacement.

Everyone was in survival mode at that point. Not a lot of long-term strategic planning going on.


http://www.seattlepi.com/sports/article/WSU-ousts-Doba-1256943.php

 

[CougEd]

1990...well that certainly is an interesting take...

Bill Doba treated players like adults, mature adults. Thus he was expecting and hoping it would return in kind. Hell, the coaches couldn't even act like mature adults, and he expected the players to? They took advantage of him at every turn. In the weight room, in the class room. Yes, if they had a string presence like Gesser and Newman who passed the torch to like kind, that would maybe been ok.

By the end of his tenure the team was small, slow, and weak. To say they went into the weight room and worked hard for him and the team and themselves simply didn't play out.

I guess you would have to define treating players like sh!t. Calling them pussies, making them wear pink shirts is something I can guarantee you Doba would have never done. Coaches will tell you they aren't there to be your friends. But I suppose you could argue Leach putting a pink shirt on Mizel for example in weight training was treating him great. And by the way, this is not an indictment on Leach. Coaches behind close doors are allowed to do what they want other than hit the kids.

The only issue with Leach I have ever had in terms of off the field things was him sending out Long and company, and the offensive line after the Utah game. I also wished he chose him words a little different than cowardice.

And FYI, Leach began to break down his players from day one.