Breakdown of Expectations for WSU/Smith's Bball 2021 team, and WHY, HOW they those Expectations are, Should be Realistic

mikalalas

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Feb 26, 2007
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In the Mohamed Gueye thread I posted projections on how I think the team will do this coming next season.

I got a lot of guff about that.

So I qm going to try to do a breakdown on, about that projection, and why, how I think its realistic. I doing that here because I didnt want a longer post in that other thread.

BREAKDOWN:

ROSTER:

1. FLOWERS: 15.5 to 17.5 ppg, 3.75 to 5.5 assist per game. 3 point shooter. A top 2,3,4 PG in Pac 12

2. Noah Williams 17.5 to 20.5 ppg. 2,2.5,3 assist per game. 5.5 rebounds per game, 2.5 steals per game, 46% 3 point shot. #1 or #2 best SG in the Pac 12.

3. 9.5 ppg from either DJ Rodman, Kim, AJ, maybe even more from Gueye if Gueye starts at 3 spot.

4. Efe/Gueye: 10 to 14 ppg apiece

5. Dischon Jackson/Gueye: 10 to 14 ppg apiece.

Bench, Depth, Rotation:

1. Tyrell Roberts, Koulibaly, Rapp, Rice

2. Koulibaly, Flowers, Bamba, Rapp

3. Gueye, Kim, DJ, AJ, Rosario, Bamba, Rapp

4. Dischon, AJ, Kim, Tony Miller, 6-9 Walk On

5. Vova, Efe, 6-9 Walk On

Team: About 78.5 ppg. Will Probably allow 55 to 65 to 75 ppg(Good Team Defense)

Talent Comparison.

WSU Likely has either better or higher rated talent then:

ASU: Especially after Remy and any others left.

Cal.

Ore St: Its Ore St's coaching, not their talent level, that was responsible for their NCAA Run, Tinkle Comparable to Tony and Dick Bennet.

Utah

WSU has equal rated talent to:

UW: Technucally UW talent higher rated, but WSU talent is still better.

Stanford: There is a reason Stanford didnt goto NCAA, NIT, and now that Zaire, others have left, WSU is about equal to Stanford in talent.

Colorado: Altho Colirado's talent is better then Ore St's, Colorado and WSU have about the same Talent level this coming season.

WSU's talent is Not as good as:

Arizona

USC:

UCLA:

How will WSU do in the Pac 12:

WSU will probably sweep UW, CAL, and will probably be swept 2 times by any 2 or 3 out of either: Arizona, or UCLA, or Oregon, or Colorado, or USC

WSU will probably Split with:

ASU, Utah, Stanford, Ore St

If WSU sweeps 2(4 total wins)(UW, Cal), and is swept by 2(4 total losses), and splits with 8 teams(8 wins), then that would a 12-6 record in conference for WSU.

So I think that because of that that WSU will at least be about 10-8,11-7 in conference.

But there is also the Coaching, X's and O's, development wise(Not recruiting)

WSU has better coaching then:

UW, Cal, ASU, Utah

Equal coaching to:

Arizona, Colorado, Stanford

Lesser coaching then

Oregon, UCLA, USC, Ore St

I think that WSU's coaching, recruiting, talent, depth, all combined together gets WSU to 9-9, 10-8, 11-7, 3rd to 6th place in Conference.

And in the Pac 12 Tourny WSU should at least get 1 or 2 Pac 12 tourny wins.

So that leaves:

Nonconference schedule.

I think its realistic that WSU wins 9,10,11 games in nonconference as only probably only 1 or 2 teams better then WSU, and 1 or 2 teams equal to WSU, with WSU better then about 7,8,9,10 teams that woukd be on its non con schedule.

So thats why its likely that WSU wins about 9,10,11 wins in Non Con.

9,10,11 wins from non con, and 9,10,11 wins in conference, equals 18 to 22 wins in regular season. Add at least 1 Pac 12 tourny win, and that becomes 19 to 23 wins(Good Enough for at least a NIT berth, and probably good enough for a NCAA bubble berth at the least, with a probable NIT Final 2/4/6, if NIT berth, and if NCAA instead of NIT, about a 6,7,8,9,10 seed, and about a 2nd round, maybe sweet 16 finish in NCAA Tourny.

And the total wins would be about 21,22,23,24,25 wins, depending on whether go to NIT, or NCAA, and what is done in Post Season play.

That is a REALISTIC BREAKDOWN projection, extrapolation, expectation of what WSU can, could, would, should do with the coaching, talent, depth(9,10,11 man rotation), they have.

Smith should be able to get at least this projection, with his coaching, talent, depth.

If he Smith, doesnt, cant, it would probably be because of injuries, etc. That or Smith isnt as good as a coach as most of us think. Or the talent didnt PAN OUT, or was OVERRATED, by the Talent Rankers(ESPN, Rivals, 2/4/7, etc.

This is NOT Pie in the Sky.
 
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How_did_this_happen?

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In the Mohamed Gueye thread I posted projections on how I think the team will do this coming next season.

I got a lot of guff about that.

So I qm going to try to do a breakdown on, about that projection, and why, how I think its realistic. I doing that here because I didnt want a longer post in that other thread.

BREAKDOWN:

ROSTER:

1. FLOWERS: 15.5 to 17.5 ppg, 3.75 to 5.5 assist per game. 3 point shooter. A top 2,3,4 PG in Pac 12

2. Noah Williams 17.5 to 20.5 ppg. 2,2.5,3 assist per game. 5.5 rebounds per game, 2.5 steals per game, 46% 3 point shot. #1 or #2 best SG in the Pac 12.

3. 9.5 ppg from either DJ Rodman, Kim, AJ, maybe even more from Gueye if Gueye starts at 3 spot.

4. Efe/Gueye: 10 to 14 ppg apiece

5. Dischon Jackson/Gueye: 10 to 14 ppg apiece.

Bench, Depth, Rotation:

1. Tyrell Roberts, Koulibaly, Rapp, Rice

2. Koulibaly, Flowers, Bamba, Rapp

3. Gueye, Kim, DJ, AJ, Rosario, Bamba, Rapp

4. Dischon, AJ, Kim, Tony Miller, 6-9 Walk On

5. Vova, Efe, 6-9 Walk On

Team: About 78.5 ppg. Will Probably allow 55 to 65 to 75 ppg(Good Team Defense)

Talent Comparison.

WSU Likely has either better or higher rated talent then:

ASU: Especially after Remy and any others left.

Cal.

Ore St: Its Ore St's coaching, not their talent level, that was responsible for their NCAA Run, Tinkle Comparable to Tony and Dick Bennet.

Utah

WSU has equal rated talent to:

UW: Technucally UW talent higher rated, but WSU talent is still better.

Stanford: There is a reason Stanford didnt goto NCAA, NIT, and now that Zaire, others have left, WSU is about equal to Stanford in talent.

Colorado: Altho Colirado's talent is better then Ore St's, Colorado and WSU have about the same Talent level this coming season.

WSU's talent is Not as good as:

Arizona

USC:

UCLA:

How will WSU do in the Pac 12:

WSU will probably sweep UW, CAL, and will probably be swept 2 times by any 2 or 3 out of either: Arizona, or UCLA, or Oregon, or Colorado, or USC

WSU will probably Split with:

ASU, Utah, Stanford, Ore St

If WSU sweeps 2(4 total wins)(UW, Cal), and is swept by 2(4 total losses), and splits with 8 teams(8 wins), then that would a 12-6 record in conference for WSU.

So I think that because of that that WSU will at least be about 10-8,11-7 in conference.

But there is also the Coaching, X's and O's, development wise(Not recruiting)

WSU has better coaching then:

UW, Cal, ASU, Utah

Equal coaching to:

Arizona, Colorado, Stanford

Lesser coaching then

Oregon, UCLA, USC, Ore St

I think that WSU's coaching, recruiting, talent, depth, all combined together gets WSU to 9-9, 10-8, 11-7, 3rd to 6th place in Conference.

And in the Pac 12 Tourny WSU should at least get 1 or 2 Pac 12 tourny wins.

So that leaves:

Nonconference schedule.

I think its realistic that WSU wins 9,10,11 games in nonconference as only probably only 1 or 2 teams better then WSU, and 1 or 2 teams equal to WSU, with WSU better then about 7,8,9,10 teams that woukd be on its non con schedule.

So thats why its likely that WSU wins about 9,10,11 wins in Non Con.

9,10,11 wins from non con, and 9,10,11 wins in conference, equals 18 to 22 wins in regular season. Add at least 1 Pac 12 tourny win, and that becomes 19 to 23 wins(Good Enough for at least a NIT berth, and probably good enough for a NCAA bubble berth at the least, with a probable NIT Final 2/4/6, if NIT berth, and if NCAA instead of NIT, about a 6,7,8,9,10 seed, and about a 2nd round, maybe sweet 16 finish in NCAA Tourny.

And the total wins would be about 21,22,23,24,25 wins, depending on whether go to NIT, or NCAA, and what is done in Post Season play.

That is a REALISTIC BREAKDOWN projection, extrapolation, expectation of what WSU can, could, would, should do with the coaching, talent, depth(9,10,11 man rotation), they have.

Smith should be able to get at least this projection, with his coaching, talent, depth.

If he Smith, doesnt, cant, it would probably be because of injuries, etc. That or Smith isnt as good as a coach as most of us think. Or the talent didnt PAN OUT, or was OVERRATED, by the Talent Rankers(ESPN, Rivals, 2/4/7, etc.

This is NOT Pie in the Sky.

Mik....I don't care what anyone says. You are amazing. 😊

Thanks for the detailed analysis.

You think Rapp stays now? I saw him on your list of players.
 

mikalalas

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Mik....I don't care what anyone says. You are amazing. 😊

Thanks for the detailed analysis.

You think Rapp stays now? I saw him on your list of players.

Nope, I still think Rapp either leaves, or Smith encourages him to leave, an or that whether or not he leaves, he should, needs to leave.

But until if he leaves, going to list him listed on the roster.
 

mikalalas

Hall Of Fame
Feb 26, 2007
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Also on, in the thread above, where Doherty(Gueye's coach), talked about Gueye.

It was mentioned that Bamba, was another big reason why Gueye Chose WSU. They are good friends.

So because of that I dont think Bamba is going to leave his friend Gueye, WSU.

And I think Smith will encourage Bamba to stay.

Last thing that want to see maybe happening is Bamba leave and maybe causing Gueye to maybe change his mind.

Not saying thats going to happen.

But lets keep both Bamba and Gueye happy.

I think Bamba stays and gets a little tiny wee little bit more playing time at the 3 spot(Also he probably deserves that anyways based on his play last year at the end of the season last year)

So because Bamba likely stays, then its even more likely Rapp transfers.
 

Coug4life34

All Conference
Apr 24, 2014
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In the Mohamed Gueye thread I posted projections on how I think the team will do this coming next season.

I got a lot of guff about that.

So I qm going to try to do a breakdown on, about that projection, and why, how I think its realistic. I doing that here because I didnt want a longer post in that other thread.

BREAKDOWN:

ROSTER:

1. FLOWERS: 15.5 to 17.5 ppg, 3.75 to 5.5 assist per game. 3 point shooter. A top 2,3,4 PG in Pac 12

2. Noah Williams 17.5 to 20.5 ppg. 2,2.5,3 assist per game. 5.5 rebounds per game, 2.5 steals per game, 46% 3 point shot. #1 or #2 best SG in the Pac 12.

3. 9.5 ppg from either DJ Rodman, Kim, AJ, maybe even more from Gueye if Gueye starts at 3 spot.

4. Efe/Gueye: 10 to 14 ppg apiece

5. Dischon Jackson/Gueye: 10 to 14 ppg apiece.

Bench, Depth, Rotation:

1. Tyrell Roberts, Koulibaly, Rapp, Rice

2. Koulibaly, Flowers, Bamba, Rapp

3. Gueye, Kim, DJ, AJ, Rosario, Bamba, Rapp

4. Dischon, AJ, Kim, Tony Miller, 6-9 Walk On

5. Vova, Efe, 6-9 Walk On

Team: About 78.5 ppg. Will Probably allow 55 to 65 to 75 ppg(Good Team Defense)

Talent Comparison.

WSU Likely has either better or higher rated talent then:

ASU: Especially after Remy and any others left.

Cal.

Ore St: Its Ore St's coaching, not their talent level, that was responsible for their NCAA Run, Tinkle Comparable to Tony and Dick Bennet.

Utah

WSU has equal rated talent to:

UW: Technucally UW talent higher rated, but WSU talent is still better.

Stanford: There is a reason Stanford didnt goto NCAA, NIT, and now that Zaire, others have left, WSU is about equal to Stanford in talent.

Colorado: Altho Colirado's talent is better then Ore St's, Colorado and WSU have about the same Talent level this coming season.

WSU's talent is Not as good as:

Arizona

USC:

UCLA:

How will WSU do in the Pac 12:

WSU will probably sweep UW, CAL, and will probably be swept 2 times by any 2 or 3 out of either: Arizona, or UCLA, or Oregon, or Colorado, or USC

WSU will probably Split with:

ASU, Utah, Stanford, Ore St

If WSU sweeps 2(4 total wins)(UW, Cal), and is swept by 2(4 total losses), and splits with 8 teams(8 wins), then that would a 12-6 record in conference for WSU.

So I think that because of that that WSU will at least be about 10-8,11-7 in conference.

But there is also the Coaching, X's and O's, development wise(Not recruiting)

WSU has better coaching then:

UW, Cal, ASU, Utah

Equal coaching to:

Arizona, Colorado, Stanford

Lesser coaching then

Oregon, UCLA, USC, Ore St

I think that WSU's coaching, recruiting, talent, depth, all combined together gets WSU to 9-9, 10-8, 11-7, 3rd to 6th place in Conference.

And in the Pac 12 Tourny WSU should at least get 1 or 2 Pac 12 tourny wins.

So that leaves:

Nonconference schedule.

I think its realistic that WSU wins 9,10,11 games in nonconference as only probably only 1 or 2 teams better then WSU, and 1 or 2 teams equal to WSU, with WSU better then about 7,8,9,10 teams that woukd be on its non con schedule.

So thats why its likely that WSU wins about 9,10,11 wins in Non Con.

9,10,11 wins from non con, and 9,10,11 wins in conference, equals 18 to 22 wins in regular season. Add at least 1 Pac 12 tourny win, and that becomes 19 to 23 wins(Good Enough for at least a NIT berth, and probably good enough for a NCAA bubble berth at the least, with a probable NIT Final 2/4/6, if NIT berth, and if NCAA instead of NIT, about a 6,7,8,9,10 seed, and about a 2nd round, maybe sweet 16 finish in NCAA Tourny.

And the total wins would be about 21,22,23,24,25 wins, depending on whether go to NIT, or NCAA, and what is done in Post Season play.

That is a REALISTIC BREAKDOWN projection, extrapolation, expectation of what WSU can, could, would, should do with the coaching, talent, depth(9,10,11 man rotation), they have.

Smith should be able to get at least this projection, with his coaching, talent, depth.

If he Smith, doesnt, cant, it would probably be because of injuries, etc. That or Smith isnt as good as a coach as most of us think. Or the talent didnt PAN OUT, or was OVERRATED, by the Talent Rankers(ESPN, Rivals, 2/4/7, etc.

This is NOT Pie in the Sky.
Thank you for being reasonable.. I am not really sure what all this adds up to because the numbers you mention are of such a wide range, but WSU on the cusp of an NCAA bid sounds about right. Coach could work some magic and be up to about 3 or 4 in conference which guarantees it. More likely to be around 4 or 5 with an NCAA bid on the line late season. Projection wise this is a sizable upgrade from years past which I think the staff and players have earned...
 

mikalalas

Hall Of Fame
Feb 26, 2007
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Another thing, BEFORE FLowers, Kim, Gueye were successfully recruited to WSU, the various CREDIBLE sources I read(Like a Ken Pom(Wasnt Ken Pom tho), gave WSU a Preseason Ranking of about 43 to 45 in nation.

That was BEFORE Flowers, Kim, Gueye. So now that WSU has Flowers, Kim, Gueye, I bet that some credible sources will start to rank WSU about 27 at best to 30 to 33 to 35 to 37 at worst. Think Flowers, Kim, Gueye is worth at least about a 8 point jump from ranking of 43 to 45.

So that also shows that the various preseason team rankers are starting to think that WSU is, should finish 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th in conference, and goto NCAA Tourny, and be about a 6th,7th,8th,9th seed in the NCAA Tourny, as that correlates to a 27 to 37 to 45 pre season ranking.
 

acgcoug

Head Coach
Oct 18, 2001
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Another thing, BEFORE FLowers, Kim, Gueye were successfully recruited to WSU, the various CREDIBLE sources I read(Like a Ken Pom(Wasnt Ken Pom tho), gave WSU a Preseason Ranking of about 43 to 45 in nation.

That was BEFORE Flowers, Kim, Gueye. So now that WSU has Flowers, Kim, Gueye, I bet that some credible sources will start to rank WSU about 27 at best to 30 to 33 to 35 to 37 at worst. Think Flowers, Kim, Gueye is worth at least about a 8 point jump from ranking of 43 to 45.

So that also shows that the various preseason team rankers are starting to think that WSU is, should finish 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th in conference, and goto NCAA Tourny, and be about a 6th,7th,8th,9th seed in the NCAA Tourny, as that correlates to a 27 to 37 to 45 pre season ranking.

Well Put Mik.

It's a been a long time since I've been more excited for Cougar basketball than Football, yet basketball season is so far out still. I'd be happy with any ranking in the middle of the Pac, and anything better than that would be really something IMO.
 

Coug90

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Jan 17, 2012
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The way things are shaping up could also be a special year. If KS gets the youngsters coached up quickly watch out P12
 
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mikalalas

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The way things are shaping up could also be a special year. If KS gets the youngsters coached up quickly watch out P12

Unless your a Old guy, calling all of them youngsters, because all young people are youngsters to you, the WSU team is not as young as you, others think.

The team is actually older, more experienced then some people think.

Seniors: FLowers, Kim, Miller(If he comes back), 6-9 Walk On(Might be a Junior

Juniors: Noah, Tyrell Roberts, Vova, Rapp, 6-9 Walk On(Might be a Sophmore, but dont think so)

Sophmores: Dischon, Efe, AJ, Koulibaly, Bamba, Rosario

Freshman: Gueye, Rice

The Team is VERY BALANCED between Bigs and Wings and Guards, and is VERY BALANCED in Class Years, except for the Sophmore class year, and is Experienced, and is NOT losing a returning starters or key bench players.

And as to the Sophmores, the biggest improvement is when go from Freshman to Sophmore, and then Sophmore to Junior.

The team is not only set up for a Good Year this year, but since the team is only going to lose 2 seniors, that will, would be replaced by lots of good players becoming Juniors, Seniors the next 2 years, the team is set to have a Good Run of 3 straight seasons, starting with this season, and each season, probably being better then each previous season the next 3 straight seasons.

Then the team will lose 6 seniors(The current Sophmore class(Unless some of them transfer, or leave early for the NBA, before then), which will cause a temporary 1 year reload/Rebuild 14,15,16 win year.

So for the next 3 years the team is set to make the NCAA's.

So Good Roster Management, Balance, Experience.

Yeah the Team was one of the Youngest teams in the entire nation last season(And despite that still went 14-13).

But that was last year.

This year the Team is older, experienced, Better
 
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mikalalas

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The way things are shaping up could also be a special year. If KS gets the youngsters coached up quickly watch out P12
Noah will not only possibly, probably be the leading Returning Scorer, but will probably be the best SG in the Pac 12. He'll probably average about 18 to 21 ppg, 5.5 rebounds per game, 2.5,3,3.5 assist per game, 3 steals per game, 3 loose balls per game, 3 drew a charge per game, LOCKDOWN DEFENSE, 83% from freethrow line, 47% from 3 point range, will score 44 points in 1 game vs a Pac 12 team, either this year or next year, and will shatter his father's 43 point record(Against Idaho State). Noah probably is, probably will be a NBA Prospect(Unless he is SNUBBED by the NBA, probably is, will be the best Pac 12 guard in the Pac 12. Probably will be ALL PAC 12 1ST TEAM. Pac 12 player of the week 4,5,6,7 times. Probably will be named a All American. Noah is that Good.

The only way those things dont happen, is if team zone him, double team him. But Pac 12 teams will get a rude awakening if they do that, as the other WSU players will make them pay if they focus too much on Noah. So Noah is that good.
 

Coug90

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Unless your a Old guy, calling all of them youngsters, because all young people are youngsters to you, the WSU team is not as young as you, others think.

The team is actually older, more experienced then some people think.

Seniors: FLowers, Kim, Miller(If he comes back), 6-9 Walk On(Might be a Junior

Juniors: Noah, Tyrell Roberts, Vova, Rapp, 6-9 Walk On(Might be a Sophmore, but dont think so)

Sophmores: Dischon, Efe, AJ, Koulibaly, Bamba, Rosario

Freshman: Gueye, Rice

The Team is VERY BALANCED between Bigs and Wings and Guards, and is VERY BALANCED in Class Years, except for the Sophmore class year, and is Experienced, and is NOT losing a returning starters or key bench players.

And as to the Sophmores, the biggest improvement is when go from Freshman to Sophmore, and then Sophmore to Junior.

The team is not only set up for a Good Year this year, but since the team is only going to lose 2 seniors, that will, would be replaced by lots of good players becoming Juniors, Seniors the next 2 years, the team is set to have a Good Run of 3 straight seasons, starting with this season, and each season, probably being better then each previous season the next 3 straight seasons.

Then the team will lose 6 seniors(The current Sophmore class(Unless some of them transfer, or leave early for the NBA, before then), which will cause a temporary 1 year reload/Rebuild 14,15,16 win year.

So for the next 3 years the team is set to make the NCAA's.

So Good Roster Management, Balance, Experience.

Yeah the Team was one of the Youngest teams in the entire nation last season(And despite that still went 14-13).

But that was last year.

This year the Team is older, experienced, Better
A. I am an old guy. At least I feel like one. B. Considering the Guye commitment is what sparked this, that’s mostly what I’m referring to with “youngsters”. In today’s NCAA when you sign a kid with that kind of talent, and you are a WSU, you need him to be highly productive right away if you are serious about making a tourney run. Sure seems like KS is doing a stellar job of developing his players too so I think the pieces are in place for a really fun season. I’m admittedly not much of a BBall fan in general (I hate the NBA), but considering the momentum of the program and how much fun this KS era is shaping up to be, I’m seriously considering season tickets this year.
 

How_did_this_happen?

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Noah will not only possibly, probably be the leading Returning Scorer, but will probably be the best SG in the Pac 12. He'll probably average about 18 to 21 ppg, 5.5 rebounds per game, 2.5,3,3.5 assist per game, 3 steals per game, 3 loose balls per game, 3 drew a charge per game, LOCKDOWN DEFENSE, 83% from freethrow line, 47% from 3 point range, will score 44 points in 1 game vs a Pac 12 team, either this year or next year, and will shatter his father's 43 point record(Against Idaho State). Noah probably is, probably will be a NBA Prospect(Unless he is SNUBBED by the NBA, probably is, will be the best Pac 12 guard in the Pac 12. Probably will be ALL PAC 12 1ST TEAM. Pac 12 player of the week 4,5,6,7 times. Probably will be named a All American. Noah is that Good.

The only way those things dont happen, is if team zone him, double team him. But Pac 12 teams will get a rude awakening if they do that, as the other WSU players will make them pay if they focus too much on Noah. So Noah is that good.
Not seeing Noah at 18-21 ppg. Too many other options and scorers. He's not a Bonton. He will probably be ~15 ppg. I don't really like having dependence on one guy for points. I also don't think ppg is all that important. Remember our S16 team under Tony? The scoring was distributed pretty well. We also had a lock down defense and our game pace was not conducive to having high scorers. That is more like Smith's philosophy.
 

etowncoug

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Not seeing Noah at 18-21 ppg. Too many other options and scorers. He's not a Bonton. He will probably be ~15 ppg. I don't really like having dependence on one guy for points. I also don't think ppg is all that important. Remember our S16 team under Tony? The scoring was distributed pretty well. We also had a lock down defense and our game pace was not conducive to having high scorers. That is more like Smith's philosophy.
Smith's offense has much better flow than Tony's WSU team. It looks like the 21-22 team is going to be hard to keep under 60 and should average in the low 70's.
 
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mikalalas

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Smith's offense has much better flow than Tony's WSU team. It looks like the 21-22 team is going to be hard to keep under 60 and should average in the low 70's.

Yeah, Team should average about 78 ppg, and hard to keep under about 60 to 63 to 65 to 67 to 69 points, in a game.
 

mikalalas

Hall Of Fame
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To those who dont see Noah scoring about 17.5 to 20,21 ppg, because of too many scoring options:

BYU, had 1 of its better, best teams get to about either the 2nd round, or Sweet 16, or Elite 8, that like this year's, season's WSU team was STACKED, DEEP, 9,10,11 man Rotation. That BYU team had a player named Jimmy Fredette, that averaged about 20,21,22,23,24 ppg, and that was a NBA Draft Lottery Pick, that was terrible in the NBA, after he was drafted by the Sacramento Kings.

Noah is either better then Jimmy Frederette now this season, or by the end of this coming season, or by the End of his senior year.

Since Jimmy Frederette average 20+ ppg on SUCH A STACKED team(And there was a lot of people that said that Jimmy Frederette wouldnt average that much per game, for the same reasons why you guys say that Noah Wont average more then 15, that too many scoring options for either Frederette or Noah to average 17 to 20+ per game.

Well that didnt stop Frederette from averaging 20+ per game for BYU, and that wont stop Noah from averaging at least 17.5 ppg minimum for WSU.

Also Seltzer averaged 17 ppg for a STACKED Sampson team. Noah is WAAY better then Seltzer was.

Also Josh Akognon averaged 28 ppg for a STACKED Creighton, or similar mid major NCAA Tourny team.

Also IKE Fontained averaged 18, 19 ppg on a STACKED team that should have gone to the NCAA Tourny(The Hendrickson, Ellison, etc, team), and scored 38 points vs Arizona. Noah is better then Ike Fontaine.

Klay averaged 19,20,19.5 ppg on a STACKED team.

Noah is better then Seltzer, Akognon, Frederette, IKE Fontaine, etc, and probably should probably get about at least 17 ppg MINIMUM.

Remember Noah Scored 40 points AGAINST A PRETTY GOOD STANFORD TEAM.

Since Noah scored 40 vs stanford, then Noah should be able to average about 17,18,19,20+ per game.

And Noah is not going to HOG all the points scored when, if he averages about 17 to 20+ per game.

The scoring would still be pretty balanced, with the team averaging about 78 points per game.

And Bone's, Eastman's team averaged about 77.5 ppg. This team has more offensive firepower then those Bone, Eastman teams, so this team should be able to also score 77.5 ppg, like the Bone, Eastman Teams.
 

Coug4life34

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Yeah, Team should average about 78 ppg, and hard to keep under about 60 to 63 to 65 to 67 to 69 points, in a game.
I love enthusiasm but average 78 points a game.. No way... For big time Division 1 that would be top ten in the country. I just don’t see that. We were being generous at 70, though I thought that was on the high side.. it’s possibly doable.

I think where we have a chance to be top 10 may be on defense.. Smith has not shown me an offensive pace conducive to those type of numbers. Your talking about Gonzaga, Baylor, Illinois, Michigan. If we put up those numbers we should be ranked in the top 10 overall and be a 3-5 seed.. Not to rain on any parades but let’s not be so over the top..
 

Coug4life34

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I love enthusiasm but average 78 points a game.. No way... For big time Division 1 that would be top ten in the country. I just don’t see that. We were being generous at 70, though I thought that was on the high side.. it’s possibly doable.

I think where we have a chance to be top 10 may be on defense.. Smith has not shown me an offensive pace conducive to those type of numbers. Your talking about Gonzaga, Baylor, Illinois, Michigan. If we put up those numbers we should be ranked in the top 10 overall and be a 3-5 seed.. Not to rain on any parades but let’s not be so over the top..
For reference we scored over 78 points in about 5 games last year. 2 of which were pre-season games.. I won’t dismiss it as crazy, but if that bet pops up in Vegas, I would go all in on the under and reckon I would not be alone... some of these statements would give a player a lifetime achievement award.. Klay Thompson broke a school scoring record averaged 21.6 ppg and was 10th in the country in scoring and that’s our projection for Noah??? Being realistic, the stats are likely to increase by smaller amounts over the next few years if we keep the team together as it stands now. More likely to be much improved on defense which will hopefully translate to some offense and points.. I think our best hope is that the gains we make show up in the win column.
 

How_did_this_happen?

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To those who dont see Noah scoring about 17.5 to 20,21 ppg, because of too many scoring options:

BYU, had 1 of its better, best teams get to about either the 2nd round, or Sweet 16, or Elite 8, that like this year's, season's WSU team was STACKED, DEEP, 9,10,11 man Rotation. That BYU team had a player named Jimmy Fredette, that averaged about 20,21,22,23,24 ppg, and that was a NBA Draft Lottery Pick, that was terrible in the NBA, after he was drafted by the Sacramento Kings.

Noah is either better then Jimmy Frederette now this season, or by the end of this coming season, or by the End of his senior year.

Since Jimmy Frederette average 20+ ppg on SUCH A STACKED team(And there was a lot of people that said that Jimmy Frederette wouldnt average that much per game, for the same reasons why you guys say that Noah Wont average more then 15, that too many scoring options for either Frederette or Noah to average 17 to 20+ per game.

Well that didnt stop Frederette from averaging 20+ per game for BYU, and that wont stop Noah from averaging at least 17.5 ppg minimum for WSU.

Also Seltzer averaged 17 ppg for a STACKED Sampson team. Noah is WAAY better then Seltzer was.

Also Josh Akognon averaged 28 ppg for a STACKED Creighton, or similar mid major NCAA Tourny team.

Also IKE Fontained averaged 18, 19 ppg on a STACKED team that should have gone to the NCAA Tourny(The Hendrickson, Ellison, etc, team), and scored 38 points vs Arizona. Noah is better then Ike Fontaine.

Klay averaged 19,20,19.5 ppg on a STACKED team.

Noah is better then Seltzer, Akognon, Frederette, IKE Fontaine, etc, and probably should probably get about at least 17 ppg MINIMUM.

Remember Noah Scored 40 points AGAINST A PRETTY GOOD STANFORD TEAM.

Since Noah scored 40 vs stanford, then Noah should be able to average about 17,18,19,20+ per game.

And Noah is not going to HOG all the points scored when, if he averages about 17 to 20+ per game.

The scoring would still be pretty balanced, with the team averaging about 78 points per game.

And Bone's, Eastman's team averaged about 77.5 ppg. This team has more offensive firepower then those Bone, Eastman teams, so this team should be able to also score 77.5 ppg, like the Bone, Eastman Teams.
Noah is not the offensive machine that Ike Fontaine was...nor is he even close to Jimmy Fredette (sp?) offensively. Defensively he is better than both. Our team will have many more weapons on offense. I'd bet money Noah does not average even 18 per game...which is no slight on him.
 
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mikalalas

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For reference we scored over 78 points in about 5 games last year. 2 of which were pre-season games.. I won’t dismiss it as crazy, but if that bet pops up in Vegas, I would go all in on the under and reckon I would not be alone... some of these statements would give a player a lifetime achievement award.. Klay Thompson broke a school scoring record averaged 21.6 ppg and was 10th in the country in scoring and that’s our projection for Noah??? Being realistic, the stats are likely to increase by smaller amounts over the next few years if we keep the team together as it stands now. More likely to be much improved on defense which will hopefully translate to some offense and points.. I think our best hope is that the gains we make show up in the win column.

So your saying that Bone's teams that were CRAP, only won about 10,11,12,13 wins that averaged about 77 points per game is better then this team is OFFENSIVELY, since you say that this team wont score 77,78.

And your saying that Benny Seltzer was better OFFENSIVELY then Noah is, since Seltzer scored 16,17,16.5 ppg, on a STACKED Sampson team, since you say that Noah wont produce 16,17,18, etc, per game. Keep in Mind that Seltzer was a PURE PG, that got 4,5 assist per game, and still as a PURE PG, STILL got about 17 ppg on a STACKED Sampson team. And Noah that averaged about 14,15 ppg last year as a Sophmore, and Scored 40 vs Stanford as a SOPHMORE, isnt as good OFFENSIVELY as Seltzer and will score less then Seltzer.

And did Klay ever score 40 vs a GOOD Pac 12 team? NO. He scored 36 as a JUNIOR. IKE FONTAINE didnt score 38 vs Arizona until he was a SENIOR. But yet Noah for the FIRST TIME IN ALL OF WSU HISTORY scored 40 vs a GOOD PAC 12 team during his SOPHMORE Year, 1,2 years earlier then Klay's Junior 36, and IKE's 38.

But scoring a SCHOOL RECORD 40 VS A GOOD PAC 12 TEAM AS A SOPHMORE means your NOT AS GOOD OFFENSIVELY as Seltzer, and will score less then Seltzer

Yep scoring a school record 40 vs a GOOD PAC 12 team, as a sophmore means shet, and that you will only score 15,16,15.5 as a Junior, even tho you averaged 14,15,14.5 ppg your sophmore year. Even tho the greatest improvements happen when become a sophmore, junior.

Yep scoring a school record 40 vs a Good Pac 12 team as a sophmore means your not as good as the past WSU scorers.

Low, Rochestie, Seltzer, Hendrickson, Ellison, Terrence Lewis, Tony Harris, all scored at least 16,17,16.5,17.5 ppg, NEVER EVER SCORED EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE TO A SCHOOL RECORD 40 VS A PAC 12 TEAM IN ANY OF THEIR YEARS, LET ALONE THEIR SOPHMORE YEAR, but they all are better then Noah, OFFENSIVELY, and Noah will score less then all of them, because Noah isnt as good offensively as any of them.

Thats what your illogically saying.
 

How_did_this_happen?

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So your saying that Bone's teams that were CRAP, only won about 10,11,12,13 wins that averaged about 77 points per game is better then this team is OFFENSIVELY, since you say that this team wont score 77,78.

And your saying that Benny Seltzer was better OFFENSIVELY then Noah is, since Seltzer scored 16,17,16.5 ppg, on a STACKED Sampson team, since you say that Noah wont produce 16,17,18, etc, per game. Keep in Mind that Seltzer was a PURE PG, that got 4,5 assist per game, and still as a PURE PG, STILL got about 17 ppg on a STACKED Sampson team. And Noah that averaged about 14,15 ppg last year as a Sophmore, and Scored 40 vs Stanford as a SOPHMORE, isnt as good OFFENSIVELY as Seltzer and will score less then Seltzer.

And did Klay ever score 40 vs a GOOD Pac 12 team? NO. He scored 36 as a JUNIOR. IKE FONTAINE didnt score 38 vs Arizona until he was a SENIOR. But yet Noah for the FIRST TIME IN ALL OF WSU HISTORY scored 40 vs a GOOD PAC 12 team during his SOPHMORE Year, 1,2 years earlier then Klay's Junior 36, and IKE's 38.

But scoring a SCHOOL RECORD 40 VS A GOOD PAC 12 TEAM AS A SOPHMORE means your NOT AS GOOD OFFENSIVELY as Seltzer, and will score less then Seltzer

Yep scoring a school record 40 vs a GOOD PAC 12 team, as a sophmore means shet, and that you will only score 15,16,15.5 as a Junior, even tho you averaged 14,15,14.5 ppg your sophmore year. Even tho the greatest improvements happen when become a sophmore, junior.

Yep scoring a school record 40 vs a Good Pac 12 team as a sophmore means your not as good as the past WSU scorers.

Low, Rochestie, Seltzer, Hendrickson, Ellison, Terrence Lewis, Tony Harris, all scored at least 16,17,16.5,17.5 ppg, NEVER EVER SCORED EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE TO A SCHOOL RECORD 40 VS A PAC 12 TEAM IN ANY OF THEIR YEARS, LET ALONE THEIR SOPHMORE YEAR, but they all are better then Noah, OFFENSIVELY, and Noah will score less then all of them, because Noah isnt as good offensively as any of them.

Thats what your illogically saying.

Okay Mik...let's stop messing around.

Bonton scored 15 ppg last season. Williams averaged 14 ppg (for reference).

I am willing to make a wager of $100 with you in cold hard cash (or dogecoin if you prefer 😁) that Williams will average <18.0 ppg in the regular season.

Let's do this bet.

I am very confident I will end up richer after next season ends.
 
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mikalalas

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So your saying that Bone's teams that were CRAP, only won about 10,11,12,13 wins that averaged about 77 points per game is better then this team is OFFENSIVELY, since you say that this team wont score 77,78.

And your saying that Benny Seltzer was better OFFENSIVELY then Noah is, since Seltzer scored 16,17,16.5 ppg, on a STACKED Sampson team, since you say that Noah wont produce 16,17,18, etc, per game. Keep in Mind that Seltzer was a PURE PG, that got 4,5 assist per game, and still as a PURE PG, STILL got about 17 ppg on a STACKED Sampson team. And Noah that averaged about 14,15 ppg last year as a Sophmore, and Scored 40 vs Stanford as a SOPHMORE, isnt as good OFFENSIVELY as Seltzer and will score less then Seltzer.

And did Klay ever score 40 vs a GOOD Pac 12 team? NO. He scored 36 as a JUNIOR. IKE FONTAINE didnt score 38 vs Arizona until he was a SENIOR. But yet Noah for the FIRST TIME IN ALL OF WSU HISTORY scored 40 vs a GOOD PAC 12 team during his SOPHMORE Year, 1,2 years earlier then Klay's Junior 36, and IKE's 38.

But scoring a SCHOOL RECORD 40 VS A GOOD PAC 12 TEAM AS A SOPHMORE means your NOT AS GOOD OFFENSIVELY as Seltzer, and will score less then Seltzer

Yep scoring a school record 40 vs a GOOD PAC 12 team, as a sophmore means shet, and that you will only score 15,16,15.5 as a Junior, even tho you averaged 14,15,14.5 ppg your sophmore year. Even tho the greatest improvements happen when become a sophmore, junior.

Yep scoring a school record 40 vs a Good Pac 12 team as a sophmore means your not as good as the past WSU scorers.

Low, Rochestie, Seltzer, Hendrickson, Ellison, Terrence Lewis, Tony Harris, all scored at least 16,17,16.5,17.5 ppg, NEVER EVER SCORED EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE TO A SCHOOL RECORD 40 VS A PAC 12 TEAM IN ANY OF THEIR YEARS, LET ALONE THEIR SOPHMORE YEAR, but they all are better then Noah, OFFENSIVELY, and Noah will score less then all of them, because Noah isnt as good offensively as any of them.

Thats what your illogically saying.
Also Seltzer was averaging 13,14,14.5 ppg his Sophmore Year, SIMILAR to Noah's 14,15,14.5,15.5 ppg during Noah's Sophmore year.

Seltzer JUMPED to about 16.5 ppg his junior year, and he never came close to 40 in a game, and he was a PG, and he was nowhere near as good as Noah is OFFENSIVELY.

But Oh No Noah isnt as good OFFENSIVELY as Seltzer or any of WSU's Past Scorers Like Seltzer, Low, Rochestie, Weaver, Cowgil, Terrence Lewis, Neil Derek, Ellison, Hendrickson, Tony Harris, Reggie Moore, Ike Iroegbu, Lacy, etc.

Yep all of them were better then Noah is OFFENSIVELY, even tho none of them scored even remotely close to 40, like Noah did.

Yep Noah is going to average less ppg then any, all of them, since they pretty much almost all of them averaged 16,16.5,17, 17.5 ppg their Junior, Senior years.
 

mikalalas

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Okay Mik...let's stop messing around.

Bonton scored 15 ppg last season. Williams averaged 14 ppg (for reference).

I am willing to make a wager of $100 with you in cold hard cash (or dogecoin if you prefer 😁) that Williams will average <18.0 ppg in the regular season.

Let's do this bet.

I am very confident I will end up richer after next season ends.

Do you know how good 14 ppg is for a SOPHMORE OUTPUT?

Bonton was a SENIOR, and only averaged 1 ppg more then Noah's SOPHMORE 14.

You look at past WSU scoring by WSU players.

The trendline is usually 2,3,4 point increase from Freshman to Sophmore, a 2,3,4 ppg increase from Sophmore to Junior, and about a 1,2,3 ppg increase from Junior to Senior.

Seltzer: went about 9, 13, 16, 17.5, his 4 years. Never came close to 40 in a game

Low: About the same as Seltzer. Never came close to 40 in a game

Terrence Lewis: Perhaps the closest comparison(6ft 4, similar athletically, talent, skill as Noah, scored about 16.5 his Junior Year, 17.9 his Senior year. Never came close to 40 in a game)

Tony Harris another good comparison scored about 17 his Junior year, and scored about 18.5, 19, 19.5 his senior year. Never came close to 40 in a game.

The best comparison is Ike Fontaine(6ft 4, similar offensively to Noah), About 9,10,11 his Freshman year, About 13,14,14.5 his Sophmore year, About 16.5/17,17.5 his Junior, About 18.8 his Senior, scored 38 vs Arizona his Senior year(Not 40, and not during his Sophmore year like with Noah)(did what he did on a STACKED team.)

Noah should be able to do what IKE Fontaine did.

I said that Noah would get about 17,18,19,20 his Junior Year. 17 at MINIMUM. 19,20 at MAXIMUM. I do think the 17 is the MOST LIKELY.

17 points is about a 2.5,3 point increase from his Noah's Sophmore year, which is within the USUAL TRENDLINE of going about 10, 13.5, 16.5, 19 in a 4 year stretch, 2.5,3,3.5 ppg increase per year.

If someone says Noah isnt likely to average at least about 17, 17.5 ppg, then they are saying that a WSU SCHOOL RECORD, MAYBE EVEN A PAC 12 RECORD 40 IN A GAME AS A SOPHMORE VS A GOOD PAC 12 TEAM MEANS NOTHING, IS SHET.

A player who can do that as a SOPHMORE should be able to get at least 17,17.5 ppg MINIMUM

Also if your saying Noah is only going to average 15 ppg, your saying that Noah a SG(Top SG's usually score more then PG's), isnt as good offensively as PURE PG BENNY SELTZER who scored, averaged about 16, 16.5 ppg, his Junior Year, even tho he Seltzer never came close to scoring 40 like Noah did.)

Noah averages 16.5/17 ppg at MINIMUM.

Noah will score more then 14.5/15/15.5 like you, others suggest.

And I would take your bet, but thats too much money, dont have that kind of Money.

So if Noah doesnt average at least 16.5/17/17.5 ppg his Junior Year, then I will eat my words, unless he gets injured, quadruple team covered, most games, etc.
 

Coug4life34

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Okay Mik...let's stop messing around.

Bonton scored 15 ppg last season. Williams averaged 14 ppg (for reference).

I am willing to make a wager of $100 with you in cold hard cash (or dogecoin if you prefer 😁) that Williams will average <18.0 ppg in the regular season.

Let's do this bet.

I am very confident I will end up richer after next season ends.
I want in on this one!! and I will throw in another $100 that we don't average 80 as a team.. In fact, I will give you 2 to 1.
 

How_did_this_happen?

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Do you know how good 14 ppg is for a SOPHMORE OUTPUT?

Bonton was a SENIOR, and only averaged 1 ppg more then Noah's SOPHMORE 14.

You look at past WSU scoring by WSU players.

The trendline is usually 2,3,4 point increase from Freshman to Sophmore, a 2,3,4 ppg increase from Sophmore to Junior, and about a 1,2,3 ppg increase from Junior to Senior.

Seltzer: went about 9, 13, 16, 17.5, his 4 years. Never came close to 40 in a game

Low: About the same as Seltzer. Never came close to 40 in a game

Terrence Lewis: Perhaps the closest comparison(6ft 4, similar athletically, talent, skill as Noah, scored about 16.5 his Junior Year, 17.9 his Senior year. Never came close to 40 in a game)

Tony Harris another good comparison scored about 17 his Junior year, and scored about 18.5, 19, 19.5 his senior year. Never came close to 40 in a game.

The best comparison is Ike Fontaine(6ft 4, similar offensively to Noah), About 9,10,11 his Freshman year, About 13,14,14.5 his Sophmore year, About 16.5/17,17.5 his Junior, About 18.8 his Senior, scored 38 vs Arizona his Senior year(Not 40, and not during his Sophmore year like with Noah)(did what he did on a STACKED team.)

Noah should be able to do what IKE Fontaine did.

I said that Noah would get about 17,18,19,20 his Junior Year. 17 at MINIMUM. 19,20 at MAXIMUM. I do think the 17 is the MOST LIKELY.

17 points is about a 2.5,3 point increase from his Noah's Sophmore year, which is within the USUAL TRENDLINE of going about 10, 13.5, 16.5, 19 in a 4 year stretch, 2.5,3,3.5 ppg increase per year.

If someone says Noah isnt likely to average at least about 17, 17.5 ppg, then they are saying that a WSU SCHOOL RECORD, MAYBE EVEN A PAC 12 RECORD 40 IN A GAME AS A SOPHMORE VS A GOOD PAC 12 TEAM MEANS NOTHING, IS SHET.

A player who can do that as a SOPHMORE should be able to get at least 17,17.5 ppg MINIMUM

Also if your saying Noah is only going to average 15 ppg, your saying that Noah a SG(Top SG's usually score more then PG's), isnt as good offensively as PURE PG BENNY SELTZER who scored, averaged about 16, 16.5 ppg, his Junior Year, even tho he Seltzer never came close to scoring 40 like Noah did.)

Noah averages 16.5/17 ppg at MINIMUM.

Noah will score more then 14.5/15/15.5 like you, others suggest.

And I would take your bet, but thats too much money, dont have that kind of Money.

So if Noah doesnt average at least 16.5/17/17.5 ppg his Junior Year, then I will eat my words, unless he gets injured, quadruple team covered, most games, etc.
Okay...understood about the money part. I just wanted to spice things up on this discussion.

Can I say that you are lowering your number on Noah's ppg for next season from 18-21 ppg to less than 18 ppg?
 
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Coug4life34

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Do you know how good 14 ppg is for a SOPHMORE OUTPUT?

Bonton was a SENIOR, and only averaged 1 ppg more then Noah's SOPHMORE 14.

You look at past WSU scoring by WSU players.

The trendline is usually 2,3,4 point increase from Freshman to Sophmore, a 2,3,4 ppg increase from Sophmore to Junior, and about a 1,2,3 ppg increase from Junior to Senior.

Seltzer: went about 9, 13, 16, 17.5, his 4 years. Never came close to 40 in a game

Low: About the same as Seltzer. Never came close to 40 in a game

Terrence Lewis: Perhaps the closest comparison(6ft 4, similar athletically, talent, skill as Noah, scored about 16.5 his Junior Year, 17.9 his Senior year. Never came close to 40 in a game)

Tony Harris another good comparison scored about 17 his Junior year, and scored about 18.5, 19, 19.5 his senior year. Never came close to 40 in a game.

The best comparison is Ike Fontaine(6ft 4, similar offensively to Noah), About 9,10,11 his Freshman year, About 13,14,14.5 his Sophmore year, About 16.5/17,17.5 his Junior, About 18.8 his Senior, scored 38 vs Arizona his Senior year(Not 40, and not during his Sophmore year like with Noah)(did what he did on a STACKED team.)

Noah should be able to do what IKE Fontaine did.

I said that Noah would get about 17,18,19,20 his Junior Year. 17 at MINIMUM. 19,20 at MAXIMUM. I do think the 17 is the MOST LIKELY.

17 points is about a 2.5,3 point increase from his Noah's Sophmore year, which is within the USUAL TRENDLINE of going about 10, 13.5, 16.5, 19 in a 4 year stretch, 2.5,3,3.5 ppg increase per year.

If someone says Noah isnt likely to average at least about 17, 17.5 ppg, then they are saying that a WSU SCHOOL RECORD, MAYBE EVEN A PAC 12 RECORD 40 IN A GAME AS A SOPHMORE VS A GOOD PAC 12 TEAM MEANS NOTHING, IS SHET.

A player who can do that as a SOPHMORE should be able to get at least 17,17.5 ppg MINIMUM

Also if your saying Noah is only going to average 15 ppg, your saying that Noah a SG(Top SG's usually score more then PG's), isnt as good offensively as PURE PG BENNY SELTZER who scored, averaged about 16, 16.5 ppg, his Junior Year, even tho he Seltzer never came close to scoring 40 like Noah did.)

Noah averages 16.5/17 ppg at MINIMUM.

Noah will score more then 14.5/15/15.5 like you, others suggest.

And I would take your bet, but thats too much money, dont have that kind of Money.

So if Noah doesnt average at least 16.5/17/17.5 ppg his Junior Year, then I will eat my words, unless he gets injured, quadruple team covered, most games, etc.
Just a quick note as well to help you understand where we are coming from MIK. Noah averaged his 14 points last year on a team that he was essentially the only scoring option with Bonton out. Your previous idea that he may score 20+ points a game was beyond a long shot. 18 is certainly more reasonable but will be very difficult. You are using the idea that he will get better as your main argument, which is sound. However, you fail to consider that for 1 he is highly unlikely to get the same number of shots this year as the talent level around him has increased considerably and we have acquired several guards (shoot first PG's at that) who are likely to cut into his minutes and shot attempts. 2) The second-year development of our post players is likely to be just as big necessitating a lot of post-entry passes further cutting into those attempts. I would be extremely frustrated if we finally signed all of this talented height only to make them defenders and rebounders. One point I do agree with you on is that the pace of play may increase some because of the athleticism on the roster. I'm not certain it will create an additional 15 possessions a game which is what I think would be needed for those numbers. I am hopeful we can get a combined 30 - 32 ppg from the starting backcourt, 8 to 10 a piece from the frontcourt, and about 10-15 or so from the bench. Somewhere around 70 ppg average.
As a coach, you try to create a balance between your offense and defense. Great defenses find a number they target to try to hold their opponents to and then strategize how they can consistently beat that number offensively and vice versa for great offensive teams. The two are a balance you can't look at them independently and think we will average 75to 80 points per game and hold our opponents under 60.. It doesn't work that way. My guess based on what the coach has said and I have seen is that the defense will be a huge focus which typically means that the offense will be controlled to prevent the defense from being put in bad situations. IE not alot of quick shots, risky plays, and the limiting of our turnovers..
 

mikalalas

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Okay...understood about the money part. I just wanted to spice things up on this discussion.

Can I say that you are lowering your number on Noah's ppg for next season from 18-21 ppg to less than 18 ppg?

I said about 17.5 to 20,21. But Noah should at least average about 16.5, 17,17.5,18, etc, at EXTREME MINIMUM, and 19,20,21 at EXTREME MAXIMUM.

14.5,15,15.5 is TO LOW for someone who scored 40 vs a Good Pac 12 team as a Sophmore.

The Pac 12 Media says, acknowledges that Noah is the leading returning scorer, and will probably be the highest, best scoring SG in the Pac 12.

14.5,15,15.5 is nowhere close to LEADING, BEST SCORING GUARD IN the Pac 12.

The media also knows what you guys know about the team, and despite that, the media is predicting Noah to be the best, highest scoring guard in the Pac 12 this year.

Do you guys know more then they do?
I want in on this one!! and I will throw in another $100 that we don't average 80 as a team.. In fact, I will give you 2 to 1.
So Bone's, Eastman's CRAP 9,10,11,12 WIN teams that averaged about 77 ppg, were better OFFENSIVELY then this coming season's WSU team that only average about 69,70 at best, according to you, others.

I'm not drinking that, your Kool Aid.

This WSU team is BETTER OFFENSIVELY then those 77 ppg 9,10,11,12 win CRAP Past WSU Teams.

Because of that, Therefore this team will at least average about 76.5 ppg, at EXTREME MINIMUM.

Smith, while yes is going to have a TOUGH DEFENSE, is going to open it up more to a FASTER, Semi Run and Gun pace.

Why?

Because the reason why Bennet, past coaches since Sampson, didnt open it up, SPEED things up, etc, was BECAUSE WSU DID NOT HAVE THE ATHLETICISM TO KEEP PACE WITH ARIZONA, UCLA, PAC 10/12 ATHLETICISM, ATHLETES.

THAT HAS CHANGED.

WSU CAN KEEP PACE. The question shouldnt be whether WSU can kerp pace now, but Whether the PAC 12 Can Keep Pace with WSU's Athleticism, 9,10,11 man rotation, etc.

Also Sampson's best teams werent as good as this team, athleticism, speed, offensively, etc, wise. But despite that Sampson, pushed the pace, run and gunned, and played AWESOME DEFENSE.

WSU can, should be able to do that too.

Also this WSU team is better then Smith's San Fran WCC team that BURIED Stanford by 39 to 49 points, and averaged about 73 to 75 to 77 to 79 ppg

Since Smith took a lesser team(San Fran), then this year's WSU team, to BURYING Stanford by 39 to 49 points and averaging about 73 to 79 ppg, that run and gunned, opened it up, etc, then Smith should be able to also do that with his, this coming season's WSU Team to.

So at least 76.5 ppg by this years team.

But do keep on ignoring the logical comparisons, logic like 9,10,11,,12 win, lesser offensive teams averaging 77 ppg, and thing like Noah setting WSU, Pac 12 RECORD 40 points vs Stanford, etc.
 

acgcoug

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FYI, Bonton averaged 17.7 this past season (not 15) compared to Williams 14.1

Bonton 15.3 JR year to 17.7 SR year

If I'm looking at the stats right, Williams averaged 21.4 pts in the 5 games that Bonton was out, all while averaging 18.4 shot attempts. His 32 and 40 point games were in that set, both wins. The 40 point game was in triple overtime and he took a ton of shots, 35. 55 total shots in those two games. So those games propped him up a bit
I don't think there's anyway that he gets that many shot attempts (18.4) on average next year. He averaged 11.7 attempts last year. I'd say 12-14 attempts per game and 15-16.5 PPG next year.
 
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mikalalas

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PG: Flowers: 10 to 13

SG: Noah: 16.5,17, 17.5,18 ppg MINIMUM

Guard Totals: About 33 ppg combined

Wing: About 10 per game.

Center/PF spots, 10 to 14 ppg each, about 20 to 23 to 25 to 27 combined.

About 63 minimum combined by the STARTERS.

Bench: 4,5 coming off Bench. Each 4 or 5 of the bemch players average about 3.5 to 4 to 4.5 to 5 to 5.5 to 6 to 6.5 ppg on average collectively broken down into individually.

Bench total is about 15,16,17,18,19 at EXTREME MINIMUM.

So combined together that would be about 76.5, 77, 77.5, 78, 78.5 ppg.

So this team should get, average about at least 76.5/77 ppg at EXTREME MINIMUM, especial since some of the worst offensive WSU teams that only won 9,10,11,12 games, per season, averaged at least 77 ppg.
 

mikalalas

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FYI, Bonton averaged 17.7 this past season (not 15) compared to Williams 14.1

Bonton 15.3 JR year to 17.7 SR year

If I'm looking at the stats right, Williams averaged 21.4 pts in the 5 games that Bonton was out, all while averaging 18.4 shot attempts. His 32 and 40 point games were in that set, both wins. The 40 point game was in triple overtime and he took a ton of shots, 35. 55 total shots in those two games. So those games propped him up a bit
I don't think there's anyway that he gets that many shot attempts (18.4) on average next year. He averaged 11.7 attempts last year. I'd say 12-14 attempts per game and 15-16.5 PPG next year.

I still think that 15 ppg is to low for somebody who scored 40 as a sophmore.

He Noah averages at least the 16.5 you mentioned at the ultimate extreme MINIMUM.

I still think its likely that Noah averages about 16.5,17,17.5,18 ppg at MINIMUM, and 18.5,19,19.5,20,20.5, etc at MAXIMUM.

No way does a player as good as Noah, set a WSU, Pac 12 RECORD RECORD 40 vs a good stanford, as a Sophmore, something that no player in WSU/Pac 12 history has done(Not Klay, Not IKE, Not Gut Williams, etc), and not average at least 17,17.5,18, ppg, and instead averages only about 14.5, 15, 15.5 ppg.

As Mr Spock would say, scoring 40, and then only averaging 15 instead of more, is ILLOGICAL, ILLOGICAL DOES NOT COMPUTE.
 

mikalalas

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ALMOST EVERY PLAYER IN WSU/pac 10/12 History that has scored about 34, 36, 38,40 points in a game, and has had 2 or 3 30+ point games, in their Sophmore, Junior, Senior Seasons, like what Noah has done, has averaged about 18+ ppg, either in the season that the 34 to 40 was scored, or within the next 1,2 seasons.

So all that for anybody who does that, EXCEPT FOR NOAH, somehow he is different. Somehow he will only average 14.5, 15, 15.5, instead of 16.5, 17, 17.5, 18+, likecall the others who have averaged that much when they scored 34 to 40 in a game.

But oh no Noah is different then that.

ILLOGICAL, DOES NOT COMPUTE.
 

acgcoug

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I still think that 15 ppg is to low for somebody who scored 40 as a sophmore.

He Noah averages at least the 16.5 you mentioned at the ultimate extreme MINIMUM.

I still think its likely that Noah averages about 16.5,17,17.5,18 ppg at MINIMUM, and 18.5,19,19.5,20,20.5, etc at MAXIMUM.

No way does a player as good as Noah, set a WSU, Pac 12 RECORD RECORD 40 vs a good stanford, as a Sophmore, something that no player in WSU/Pac 12 history has done(Not Klay, Not IKE, Not Gut Williams, etc), and not average at least 17,17.5,18, ppg, and instead averages only about 14.5, 15, 15.5 ppg.

As Mr Spock would say, scoring 40, and then only averaging 15 instead of more, is ILLOGICAL, ILLOGICAL DOES NOT COMPUTE.

Compute this Mr Spock :

Triple Overtime, 54 minutes of playing time, 12-35 shooting (ouch), 4-17 2 pt shooting (ouch), 8-18 3pt shooting (good), 8-10 FT's (good), 34% from the field (ouch), 9 turnovers (ouch). No Bonton, no others that are very good at creating their own shots in that game.

Played 24+ minutes over his average PT per game (about 30). Again, 54 this game. So close to playing double his average minutes per game.

We won (good), but this game didn't show much good for Williams.

Now his previous game is something to hang his hat on, and clearly his best game of the season. 31 minutes, 32 points on 12-20 shooting, 4-6 3's, 9 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 steals. That's an All-American stat line.
 

Coug90

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Compute this Mr Spock :

Triple Overtime, 54 minutes of playing time, 12-35 shooting (ouch), 4-17 2 pt shooting (ouch), 8-18 3pt shooting (good), 8-10 FT's (good), 34% from the field (ouch), 9 turnovers (ouch). No Bonton, no others that are very good at creating their own shots in that game.

Played 24+ minutes over his average PT per game (about 30). Again, 54 this game. So close to playing double his average minutes per game.

We won (good), but this game didn't show much good for Williams.

Now his previous game is something to hang his hat on, and clearly his best game of the season. 31 minutes, 32 points on 12-20 shooting, 4-6 3's, 9 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 steals. That's an All-American stat line.
Here’s the other thing with this stat line...7 assists. That’s what 16/17 points that he passed up? Noah is a confident scorer but he’s perfectly happy and capable to dish it to an open teammate. That along with the fact he should be playing with several other competent scorers leads me to believe 20 is highly unlikely and a reasonable over/under is 16.5. When you’ve got a guy who will gladly spread the wealth the 25+ point games that pick up the average are going to be few and far between.
 

How_did_this_happen?

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I said about 17.5 to 20,21. But Noah should at least average about 16.5, 17,17.5,18, etc, at EXTREME MINIMUM, and 19,20,21 at EXTREME MAXIMUM.

14.5,15,15.5 is TO LOW for someone who scored 40 vs a Good Pac 12 team as a Sophmore.

The Pac 12 Media says, acknowledges that Noah is the leading returning scorer, and will probably be the highest, best scoring SG in the Pac 12.

14.5,15,15.5 is nowhere close to LEADING, BEST SCORING GUARD IN the Pac 12.

The media also knows what you guys know about the team, and despite that, the media is predicting Noah to be the best, highest scoring guard in the Pac 12 this year.

Do you guys know more then they do?

So Bone's, Eastman's CRAP 9,10,11,12 WIN teams that averaged about 77 ppg, were better OFFENSIVELY then this coming season's WSU team that only average about 69,70 at best, according to you, others.

I'm not drinking that, your Kool Aid.

This WSU team is BETTER OFFENSIVELY then those 77 ppg 9,10,11,12 win CRAP Past WSU Teams.

Because of that, Therefore this team will at least average about 76.5 ppg, at EXTREME MINIMUM.

Smith, while yes is going to have a TOUGH DEFENSE, is going to open it up more to a FASTER, Semi Run and Gun pace.

Why?

Because the reason why Bennet, past coaches since Sampson, didnt open it up, SPEED things up, etc, was BECAUSE WSU DID NOT HAVE THE ATHLETICISM TO KEEP PACE WITH ARIZONA, UCLA, PAC 10/12 ATHLETICISM, ATHLETES.

THAT HAS CHANGED.

WSU CAN KEEP PACE. The question shouldnt be whether WSU can kerp pace now, but Whether the PAC 12 Can Keep Pace with WSU's Athleticism, 9,10,11 man rotation, etc.

Also Sampson's best teams werent as good as this team, athleticism, speed, offensively, etc, wise. But despite that Sampson, pushed the pace, run and gunned, and played AWESOME DEFENSE.

WSU can, should be able to do that too.

Also this WSU team is better then Smith's San Fran WCC team that BURIED Stanford by 39 to 49 points, and averaged about 73 to 75 to 77 to 79 ppg

Since Smith took a lesser team(San Fran), then this year's WSU team, to BURYING Stanford by 39 to 49 points and averaging about 73 to 79 ppg, that run and gunned, opened it up, etc, then Smith should be able to also do that with his, this coming season's WSU Team to.

So at least 76.5 ppg by this years team.

But do keep on ignoring the logical comparisons, logic like 9,10,11,,12 win, lesser offensive teams averaging 77 ppg, and thing like Noah setting WSU, Pac 12 RECORD 40 points vs Stanford, etc.
Hi Mik...I am certain you stated 18 to 21 ppg. I would have remembered if it was 17.5 ppg at the low end.

It doesn't matter though. Noah will not average even 17.5 ppg next season. That is not a slam on him. He is a terrific player...too many offensive weapons now. The rotation will be deeper with more scorers. I don't see us changing our pace all that much either.

Very excited about next season. Hoping we stay healthy for a change. If you change your mind on that bet, I'm all in on winning $100! 😎
 
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jourdand

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Noah can get hot and score in bunches, he is a guy who can hit the 3 but primarily he he gets his points off his defense. He will have big games but I doubt he is the primary scoring option next year. It’s really not a role he is suited for. He has developed his 3 pt shot and he has excellent mid range game but he needs to improve his slashing to and finishing at the rim.
 

mikalalas

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Its all about realistic COMPARISONS, PAST TRENDLINES.

ALMOST EVERY PLAYER IN WSU, PAC 12, MAYBE EVEN IN ALL OF COLLEGE BBALL HISTORY, THAR HAS SCORED 40 POINTS IN A GAME VS A GOOD TEAM LIKE STANFORD, EITHER AVERAGES ABOUT 17 TO 20 THAT SEASON OR THE NEXT SEASON AFTER THAT SEASON.

Thats a realistic, logical comparison, trendline.

Find me 1 player that scored 40 vs a a stanford type, that didnt go on to average 17 to 20 either that seaaon or next season after that season.

I dont think any of you will find even 1 player that scored 40, that didnt average 17 to 20..

And since most players that score 40, average 17 to 20, why would Noah be any different then the rest of that trendline?

And if that trensline were not enough, the majority of Sports Media thinks that Noah is going to be the highest scoring Pac 12 guard, SG. So 14.5/15/15.5/16 ppg is going to lead Pac 12 guards, SG's? No that wont lead Pac 12. No its clear that the majority of Sports Media, thinks Noah will score about 17 to 20, and thus lead Pac 12 Guards, SG's.

Do any of you guys know something the Sports Media doesnt? Do you guys know more then the Sports Media?

I'm going to follow the COMPARISONS, TRENDLINES, SPORTS MEDIA.

But hey, prove the comparisons, trendlines, sportsmedia wrong by finding at least 1 player that scored 40 that didnt go on to average 17 to 20 points per game.
 

mikalalas

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Noah can get hot and score in bunches, he is a guy who can hit the 3 but primarily he he gets his points off his defense. He will have big games but I doubt he is the primary scoring option next year. It’s really not a role he is suited for. He has developed his 3 pt shot and he has excellent mid range game but he needs to improve his slashing to and finishing at the rim.
That was said about Klay about Klay's freshman, sophmore years. His Junior year changed that.

A lot of freshman, sophmores are like that, and dont become more assertive, agressive, slash, look to score, etc, until their Junior, Senior year.

Noah was 2nd, 3rd Fiddle to Bonton, CJ, his freshman, sophmore years.

Now Noah is the CJ, Bonton.

Also part of the reason why Noah had more assist, etc, is there wasnt a PG, so Noah had to play PG at times.

Now that WSU has a AWESOME PG in Flowers, Noah can focus more on scoring, and let Flowers be the PG.

Thats why Flowers will average 8 to 13, instead of more, because he is going to be the DISTRIBUTOR.

Also Klay's teams were almost as STACKED as this team, and he Klay scored 36 in a game, and 19/20,19.5 ppg on such a LOADED, STACKED team

Noah likewise is going to average about 16.5/17,17.5/18 at MINIMUM and about 18.5/19,19.5/20,20.5 at MAXIMUM

Flowers is going to average about 8.5 to 13.5 ppg

The 3 Spot will average about 9 ppg

The 4,5 spots will average about 10 to 13.5 ppg.

And the bench(4,5 players), will averagecabout 3.3 ppg per player, and will add a total of 15,16,17,18,19 ppg.

And the team will average about 76.5 ppg(Bone's, Eastman's CRAP 9,10,11,12 WIN TEAMS AVERAGED 77 PER GAME.)

This is backed up by logical comparisons, trendlines, Sports Media, etc
 

jourdand

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Lmao, the sports media said Noah is possibly going to be the leading returning scorer as things stand right now. That is simply stating a statistical fact! they aren’t making any prediction for next year.

Devonte Lacy scored 39 points against CAL his junior year on way to averaging 19 points a game. His senior year his scoring dropped to 16.5 per game.
How about Carter Skaggs his sophomore year he scored 24 points against Kansas State followed by 17 vs USC 18 vs UCLA and 17 vs Colorado. By your screwed up logic he should have scored between 14, 15, 16.5 to 18.35 as a junior. Instead he averaged 6.00000.
I could sit here all day and rattle off thousands of players that had huge games because that’s what good players do. It doesn’t mean it’s going to be the norm, it’s called stepping up!
How about Jay Locklier for WSU he had a 40 point game yet was only a 7 point per game career scorer.

nobody thinks Noah is a bad player, fact is he should be one of the top guards in the PAC 12 next year but he doesn’t have to score 20 points a game or 17.5 to 18.654 points a game to do it. A legitimate argument can definitely be made that Noah will rotate into the roll of primary scorer if he improves his slashing ability as much as he did his 3 point shooting but as of know that’s not his game. And if he does assume that role it wouldn’t have anything to do with a 40, 50 or 60 point game he had the year before.
 

mikalalas

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Lmao, the sports media said Noah is possibly going to be the leading returning scorer as things stand right now. That is simply stating a statistical fact! they aren’t making any prediction for next year.

Devonte Lacy scored 39 points against CAL his junior year on way to averaging 19 points a game. His senior year his scoring dropped to 16.5 per game.
How about Carter Skaggs his sophomore year he scored 24 points against Kansas State followed by 17 vs USC 18 vs UCLA and 17 vs Colorado. By your screwed up logic he should have scored between 14, 15, 16.5 to 18.35 as a junior. Instead he averaged 6.00000.
I could sit here all day and rattle off thousands of players that had huge games because that’s what good players do. It doesn’t mean it’s going to be the norm, it’s called stepping up!
How about Jay Locklier for WSU he had a 40 point game yet was only a 7 point per game career scorer.

nobody thinks Noah is a bad player, fact is he should be one of the top guards in the PAC 12 next year but he doesn’t have to score 20 points a game or 17.5 to 18.654 points a game to do it. A legitimate argument can definitely be made that Noah will rotate into the roll of primary scorer if he improves his slashing ability as much as he did his 3 point shooting but as of know that’s not his game. And if he does assume that role it wouldn’t have anything to do with a 40, 50 or 60 point game he had the year before.

Thanks for pointing that out. Didnt know that Locklier scored 40(Knew he average beans(about 3 to 5 to 7 ppg)

I still think that Noah averages about 16/16.5/17/17.5/18 points as a range, but you others are probably right that 18/18.5/19/19.5/20/20.5 as a range, is probably too high, as the reason why I thought that, is because of how many players who have scored 40, have gone on to average 17.5 to 20.5 ppg.

I do think that Noah will be the CJ, Bonton, primary scorer of this team, as Flowers is going to be the DISTRIBUTOR, and I think Efe, Dischon are about 1 year away from being Primary scorers the year after this coming season.

I now think Noah averages about 16 at MINIMUM, and 18 at MAXIMUM, with a range of 16/16.5/17/17.5/18 ppg.

See I can be persuaded, proven wrong.
 

How_did_this_happen?

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Thanks for pointing that out. Didnt know that Locklier scored 40(Knew he average beans(about 3 to 5 to 7 ppg)

I still think that Noah averages about 16/16.5/17/17.5/18 points as a range, but you others are probably right that 18/18.5/19/19.5/20/20.5 as a range, is probably too high, as the reason why I thought that, is because of how many players who have scored 40, have gone on to average 17.5 to 20.5 ppg.

I do think that Noah will be the CJ, Bonton, primary scorer of this team, as Flowers is going to be the DISTRIBUTOR, and I think Efe, Dischon are about 1 year away from being Primary scorers the year after this coming season.

I now think Noah averages about 16 at MINIMUM, and 18 at MAXIMUM, with a range of 16/16.5/17/17.5/18 ppg.

See I can be persuaded, proven wrong.

Now we are making progress...
😎
 
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