Charter flights, redux

[Loyal Coug]

So I got no bites on my previous post about promoting/facilitiating/begging for small-scale charter flights to games for those absentee reserved/luxury seat holders, and indeed for other well-to-do people that could be buying the vacant luxury seats that WSU was giving away per previous threads. I know Chun reads WW so maybe he will pick up my fantastic idea and run with it.

I was at the Gig Harbor airport recently. Parked on the tarmac was a plane with about 20 windows on one side - so a pretty big plane. Some really rich guy (a McCaw maybe?) lives in Gig Harbor, maybe it was his. Another plane was there that had at least 6 windows on one side. so a 12-14 seater at least?

No you aren't going to ferry thousands of fans to Pullman by plane, but every little bit helps, right? Cougaire only held what - 50-60 per plane? I don't know about the other Pac-12 teams, but I have seen at least a large handful of USC fan planes come in for their games.

Curious if anyone on here flies, or knows a plane owner, and could comment on what it would cost say a 12 seater to jump over the mountains and back.

 

[roses04]

It's a numbers game, A flight to Spokane from Seattle is about 130-150 from Sat, return Sunday, and airport hotel in Spokane is about $120 a night, rental car 45 for a day, split hotel and car two ways, and its $225-250 a person. A flight to Pullman is $350, plus hotel. So what's the cost of the charter? at $200-250 a person it makes sense, doubt you can come in at that price. If it's 200 or less sign me up.

 

[wazzucougs96]

It's a numbers game, A flight to Spokane from Seattle is about 130-150 from Sat, return Sunday, and airport hotel in Spokane is about $120 a night, rental car 45 for a day, split hotel and car two ways, and its $225-250 a person. A flight to Pullman is $350, plus hotel. So what's the cost of the charter? at $200-250 a person it makes sense, doubt you can come in at that price. If it's 200 or less sign me up.

If you stay at Northern Quest, you don't even need to rent a car. They have a stay and play package that includes a party bus to and from the game.

 

[Loyal Coug]

It's a numbers game, A flight to Spokane from Seattle is about 130-150 from Sat, return Sunday, and airport hotel in Spokane is about $120 a night, rental car 45 for a day, split hotel and car two ways, and its $225-250 a person. A flight to Pullman is $350, plus hotel. So what's the cost of the charter? at $200-250 a person it makes sense, doubt you can come in at that price. If it's 200 or less sign me up.

Looked at your numbers and Alaska flights, they are close enough for discussion purposes. You do need to factor in parking at Sea-Tac either way. Plus the time hassle factor of getting there and to your flight from wherever you live.

Spokane option - time and hassle of renting a car and the drive to Pullman and back, no beer for you after halftime (or kickoff) if you are the driver.
Pullman option - plus hotel likely means 2 nights at $100-150/night if you can find a room. So that's $450 each. OUCH!

So I'm thinking $300/per would be a pretty good deal. From your local airport to Pullman International and back.

 

[wazzucougs96]

Looked at your numbers and Alaska flights, they are close enough for discussion purposes. You do need to factor in parking at Sea-Tac either way. Plus the time hassle factor of getting there and to your flight from wherever you live.

Spokane option - time and hassle of renting a car and the drive to Pullman and back, no beer for you after halftime (or kickoff) if you are the driver.
Pullman option - plus hotel likely means 2 nights at $100-150/night if you can find a room. So that's $450 each. OUCH!

So I'm thinking $300/per would be a pretty good deal. From your local airport to Pullman International and back.

Even 400-450 if its over and back on the same day.

 

[Coug95man2]

Now the part of the numbers game is getting enough people to think that they want to get in, get out, same day. Not enjoy the gameday experience, etc. And then to make in profitable for whatever airline. So the puddle jumpers that Alaska/Horizon have, carry anywhere from 70-76, depending on the plane. The smaller 737 carries 175 or so. How many planes coming and going would it be worth it for them to start such a charter?

Now remember, it isn't just as plain as "We could fill 1 smaller plane just with my friends!" and it be worthy of their time. All the stuff behind the scenes is more money than the operation of the actual flight. If I had to guess, they'd need to fill 5 smaller planes for it to be worth such a specialized flight plan for 5-6 weekends out of the year. I'd probably say 2 of the 737's. And that's coming from someone that just flies a lot. I have zero inside knowledge of how these things truly run. I just know business.

 

[wazzucougs96]

Now the part of the numbers game is getting enough people to think that they want to get in, get out, same day. Not enjoy the gameday experience, etc. .

On the contrary, I think the appeal of the same day flight is coming over in the morning and leaving after the game, thus allowing for a full gameday experience. Not just showing up an hour before kickoff.

 

[CougInSpain]

What about a charter bus? Easier access for meeting locations, cheaper (albeit longer commute time) and better drop off location. I was just thinking about this the other day and was wondering if I should reach out to some of the Alumni Association chapters on the westside for possibly making this an actual thing.

 

[Coug95man2]

What about a charter bus? Easier access for meeting locations, cheaper (albeit longer commute time) and better drop off location. I was just thinking about this the other day and was wondering if I should reach out to some of the Alumni Association chapters on the westside for possibly making this an actual thing.

Even conceding 96's point, it all turns into a numbers game. Flights, bus's, bicycles, whatever. I'd say reach out because that's how demand will grow. But the reason none of this is happening is because the business's don't see the demand. They see more risk than worthiness. Drum up demand, man. What could it hurt?

 

[wazzucougs96]

What about a charter bus? Easier access for meeting locations, cheaper (albeit longer commute time) and better drop off location. I was just thinking about this the other day and was wondering if I should reach out to some of the Alumni Association chapters on the westside for possibly making this an actual thing.

I would be shocked if there is a big market for fans riding a bus for 12 hours in one day. The CAF does run them from as far as Yakima (or maybe Tri Cities?) though

 

[CougInSpain]

I would be shocked if there is a big market for fans riding a bus for 12 hours in one day. The CAF does run them from as far as Yakima (or maybe Tri Cities?) though

Don't need a huge demand for this to make it happen. These buses have plenty of on-board entertainment such as wifi, tv, music etc etc..... The ride back wouldn't be all that great if/when we have night games but who cares... bring a pillow and sleep. I am sure there would be a couple hundred or so (or maybe less) that would be interested in doing this on game days in Pullman.

 

[ttowncoug]

LC - many of the "old money" families in Tacoma and some names that might have connections live in the greater Gig Harbor Tacoma area. The Haub family (german billionaires) also have digs in the area.

I've been told, charter flights in those type of planes (G-4, etc) are around $20K per hour. The numbers don't pencil out.

If you could get Horizon to do a special charter out of Gig Harbor, I'd be on that flight every weekend. Head out in the morning, come back late evening. I know commercial flights don't go in and out of their because no TSA. The cost would arguably a little higher because that plane probably stays grounded until post game, but you wouldn't have to have the flight attendant staff, etc., you could just get that bird off the ground and land it. I am also thinking you could get some Cougar pilots to man the plane in return for some kind of "in-kind" compensation from WSU.

 

[Loyal Coug]

LC - many of the "old money" families in Tacoma and some names that might have connections live in the greater Gig Harbor Tacoma area. The Haub family (german billionaires) also have digs in the area.

I've been told, charter flights in those type of planes (G-4, etc) are around $20K per hour. The numbers don't pencil out.

If you could get Horizon to do a special charter out of Gig Harbor, I'd be on that flight every weekend. Head out in the morning, come back late evening. I know commercial flights don't go in and out of their because no TSA. The cost would arguably a little higher because that plane probably stays grounded until post game, but you wouldn't have to have the flight attendant staff, etc., you could just get that bird off the ground and land it. I am also thinking you could get some Cougar pilots to man the plane in return for some kind of "in-kind" compensation from WSU.

The other day I found 2-3 Seattle/Portland area charter services that actually had "per hour" rates on their sites. Can't find them right now and don't have time to look. But yes kind of pricey on their face - but then those are businesses with no WSU connection.

 

[M-I-Coug]

What about a charter bus? Easier access for meeting locations, cheaper (albeit longer commute time) and better drop off location. I was just thinking about this the other day and was wondering if I should reach out to some of the Alumni Association chapters on the westside for possibly making this an actual thing.

Charter bus from where? I think the challenge and issue with the west side is this: CDL drivers are only allowed by law, to drive so many hours per day. I think it's 8, or something like that. Seattle to Pullman. Pullman to Othello. Change drivers (by law) in Othello. The logistics make it real challenging. That's why there is no organized charter bus from the west side.

Funny, this in itself makes it by far, the most challenging in the UNITED STATES of AMERICA, to see a football game, (same day -over and back) for a Power 5 conference school.

 

[kayak15]

Charter bus from where? I think the challenge and issue with the west side is this: CDL drivers are only allowed by law, to drive so many hours per day. I think it's 8, or something like that. Seattle to Pullman. Pullman to Othello. Change drivers (by law) in Othello. The logistics make it real challenging. That's why there is no organized charter bus from the west side.

Good point. CDL hours limitation is eleven hours with a one hour rest time. So ten hours on the road. So unless one of the passengers has an appropriate license- wouldn't have to be interstate- the charter bus would need to hire two drivers.

 

[FnuLnu]

Good point. CDL hours limitation is eleven hours with a one hour rest time. So ten hours on the road. So unless one of the passengers has an appropriate license- wouldn't have to be interstate- the charter bus would need to hire two drivers.

Victoria Clipper (and separately the Alumni Association) tried this last decade.

Bill Doba football (inability to win home football games) and DOT driving rules helped kill it.
They needed to swap drivers in Othello/Moses Lake which meant a motel room for one of them.
The Pac 12's inability to announce game start times more than 14 days in advance will probably make it difficult to resume except for the Apple Cup.

 

[Coug95man2]

The Pac 12's inability to announce game start times more than 14 days in advance will probably make it difficult to resume except for the Apple Cup.

Just so you know, this isn't a PAC 12 thing. It's everyone. It's due to the sport channels "bidding system". Example: ESPN doesn't want to commit to airing a WSU game in October, if they don't know if WSU is doing well at that time. So the system is, at a given time, ESPN decides if they want to carry a game. If they don't, it goes to FOX. If they don't want it, the other smaller stations have the ability. If no one wants it, the PAC12 Network airs it. But no station wants to commit to any given program, unless it's a contractual thing like the AC, until a few weeks prior. It's the BIG, it's SEC, it's PAC. It's all of them.

 

[HCoug]

Victoria Clipper (and separately the Alumni Association) tried this last decade.

Bill Doba football (inability to win home football games) and DOT driving rules helped kill it.
They needed to swap drivers in Othello/Moses Lake which meant a motel room for one of them.
The Pac 12's inability to announce game start times more than 14 days in advance will probably make it difficult to resume except for the Apple Cup.

I can’t comment on the failure of the busses, but “Doba football” certainly didn’t drive the demise of the Cougaire game day flights from Seattle.

A price that escalated beyond what people were willing to pay for what degenerated into second rate, unreliable customer service was central to the fading demand for the flights. Hour-plus delays in departure times were common. When added to the hour commute/parking time and the (then) two-hour pre-arrival time, we were often still waiting to board four hours after leaving home. We would have been nearly to Pullman at that time had we driven straight from home.

And then there was the time that a plane load of us spent the night on the floor of the Pullman terminal when the return flight was cancelled due to mechanical problems. There were not enough terminal chairs to accommodate all passengers, since they closed off the section of the terminal beyond security when security personnel left for the night. There were no available rental cars or motel vacancies. The next morning, they bussed us up the old highway to Spokane in an old school bus for a flight to Seattle.

 

[M-I-Coug]

I can’t comment on the failure of the busses, but “Doba football” certainly didn’t drive the demise of the Cougaire game day flights from Seattle.

A price that escalated beyond what people were willing to pay for what degenerated into second rate, unreliable customer service was central to the fading demand for the flights. Hour-plus delays in departure times were common. When added to the hour commute/parking time and the (then) two-hour pre-arrival time, we were often still waiting to board four hours after leaving home. We would have been nearly to Pullman at that time had we driven straight from home.

And then there was the time that a plane load of us spent the night on the floor of the Pullman terminal when the return flight was cancelled due to mechanical problems. There were not enough terminal chairs to accommodate all passengers, since they closed off the section of the terminal beyond security when security personnel left for the night. There were no available rental cars or motel vacancies. The next morning, they bussed us up the old highway to Spokane in an old school bus for a flight to Seattle.

Unbelievable story, what a nightmare. Question? Who is "they"?

 

[PeteTheChop]

And then there was the time that a plane load of us spent the night on the floor of the Pullman terminal when the return flight was cancelled due to mechanical problems. There were not enough terminal chairs to accommodate all passengers, since they closed off the section of the terminal beyond security when security personnel left for the night. There were no available rental cars or motel vacancies. The next morning, they bussed us up the old highway to Spokane in an old school bus for a flight to Seattle.

Yikes!

Never been in the Pullman airport (at least that I can remember).

I'm pretty sure it's fairly small, but is it pretty nice (by 2018 standards)? Gift shop, restaurant, etc?

Back in the day, I flew into a couple "airports" in Alaska that would've made a run-down KOA Campground look the Ritz Carlton. But those places were a lot more remote than a Division I university town that brings back tens of thousands of alumni each football season.

 

[Loyal Coug]

I can’t comment on the failure of the busses, but “Doba football” certainly didn’t drive the demise of the Cougaire game day flights from Seattle.

A price that escalated beyond what people were willing to pay for what degenerated into second rate, unreliable customer service was central to the fading demand for the flights. Hour-plus delays in departure times were common. When added to the hour commute/parking time and the (then) two-hour pre-arrival time, we were often still waiting to board four hours after leaving home. We would have been nearly to Pullman at that time had we driven straight from home.

And then there was the time that a plane load of us spent the night on the floor of the Pullman terminal when the return flight was cancelled due to mechanical problems. There were not enough terminal chairs to accommodate all passengers, since they closed off the section of the terminal beyond security when security personnel left for the night. There were no available rental cars or motel vacancies. The next morning, they bussed us up the old highway to Spokane in an old school bus for a flight to Seattle.

Wow, thanks for the insight.

 

[Loyal Coug]

Yikes!

Never been in the Pullman airport (at least that I can remember).

I'm pretty sure it's fairly small, but is it pretty nice (by 2018 standards)? Gift shop, restaurant, etc?

Back in the day, I flew into a couple "airports" in Alaska that would've made a run-down KOA Campground look the Ritz Carlton. But those places were a lot more remote than a Division I university town that brings back tens of thousands of alumni each football season.

I blew coffee out my nose when I read this. Gift shop, restaurant?

FYI, I think it would be safe to say that the terminal at Pullman International bears a closer resemblance to your Alaska airports.

Although now that they are spending $100 million to tweak the runway, and Alaska is pulling out of Lewiston (who actually has a (now closed)restaurant and gift shop at their airport), maybe they will improve it.

 

[Wasichus]

I can’t comment on the failure of the busses, but “Doba football” certainly didn’t drive the demise of the Cougaire game day flights from Seattle.

A price that escalated beyond what people were willing to pay for what degenerated into second rate, unreliable customer service was central to the fading demand for the flights. Hour-plus delays in departure times were common. When added to the hour commute/parking time and the (then) two-hour pre-arrival time, we were often still waiting to board four hours after leaving home. We would have been nearly to Pullman at that time had we driven straight from home.

And then there was the time that a plane load of us spent the night on the floor of the Pullman terminal when the return flight was cancelled due to mechanical problems. There were not enough terminal chairs to accommodate all passengers, since they closed off the section of the terminal beyond security when security personnel left for the night. There were no available rental cars or motel vacancies. The next morning, they bussed us up the old highway to Spokane in an old school bus for a flight to Seattle.

Wow! That overnight experience must have been after I had been one of the ones priced out of flying Cougaire?

I had been flying Cougaire since the very start of the program. I think I remember some of the first flights I made cost about $100 RT (it could have been as much as $150) ? That was at the very start.

At that point it made a lot of sense for me to be able to go over and back, same day, without the long drive from N. Snohomish Co.

I had family and professional obligations to consider. Plus I went to most of the away games. So - only being gone for most of Saturday on home game weekends seemed like a great compromise at the time. And I rationalized not being gone all weekend for home games as a counterpoint to the road game weekends.

As the airfare skyrocketed over the years, I began doing my own form of Cougaire. My kids were older by that point (this was many, many years after the early days) and I usually was able to get a colleague to cover for me as far as emergencies. So I flew into and out of Spokane and was lucky enough to have friends who would pick me up at the airport, drive down to Pullman for the game, drive back, and put me up for the night. I would take a reasonably early flight back in the AM and it worked out pretty much as well as Cougaire. And much, much cheaper.

That’s what I do to this day, even as airfare to Spokane has jumped up in recent years. Thank God for air miles!

Yeah, there were some pretty interesting times on those Cougaire flights. And who could ever forget the “security gate Nazi” at the Pullman airport? He treated the charter flight passengers like we were all potential master terrorists. I know his job was security, especially after 9/11. But damn.....he sure seemed to enjoy torturing us.....all part of the “charm” of Cougaire!

 

[CougEd]

Wow! That overnight experience must have been after I had been one of the ones priced out of flying Cougaire?

I had been flying Cougaire since the very start of the program. I think I remember some of the first flights I made cost about $100 RT (it could have been as much as $150) ? That was at the very start.

At that point it made a lot of sense for me to be able to go over and back, same day, without the long drive from N. Snohomish Co.

I had family and professional obligations to consider. Plus I went to most of the away games. So - only being gone for most of Saturday on home game weekends seemed like a great compromise at the time. And I rationalized not being gone all weekend for home games as a counterpoint to the road game weekends.

As the airfare skyrocketed over the years, I began doing my own form of Cougaire. My kids were older by that point (this was many, many years after the early days) and I usually was able to get a colleague to cover for me as far as emergencies. So I flew into and out of Spokane and was lucky enough to have friends who would pick me up at the airport, drive down to Pullman for the game, drive back, and put me up for the night. I would take a reasonably early flight back in the AM and it worked out pretty much as well as Cougaire. And much, much cheaper.

That’s what I do to this day, even as airfare to Spokane has jumped up in recent years. Thank God for air miles!

Yeah, there were some pretty interesting times on those Cougaire flights. And who could ever forget the “security gate Nazi” at the Pullman airport? He treated the charter flight passengers like we were all potential master terrorists. I know his job was security, especially after 9/11. But damn.....he sure seemed to enjoy torturing us.....all part of the “charm” of Cougaire!

The skinny dude whose scanner was so sensitive a metal filling would make it go off . The he loved to wand people. Too funny . I was on the flight when a board of regents member made a bomb joke and was taken off the flight

 

[FnuLnu]

The skinny dude whose scanner was so sensitive a metal filling would make it go off . The he loved to wand people. Too funny . I was on the flight when a board of regents member made a bomb joke and was taken off the flight

Surprised you say that.

That guy was treated horribly by some of the drunk off their ass boosters.
He was following Federal rules, not getting paid jack (especially in Whitman County and how the smaller airports/airlines operate)

Don't need another Len Koenecke situation.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/remembering-the-brooklyn-dodger-who-hijacked-a-plane

 

[HCoug]

Unbelievable story, what a nightmare. Question? Who is "they"?

“They” in the first instance refers to terminal personnel. “They” in the second instance refers to Alaska/Horizon personnel who I believe coordinated the bus transfer, although I think the bus driver may have been a WSU employee. I’m sure they did the best they could at their level under the circumstances.

We were thankful the mechanical issue was found before takeoff. But a better solution in our view would have been turning the first plane around after its flight to Seattle and sending it back to Pullman to pick us up. Probably an economic decision on up the line, if it was even considered.

 

[PeteTheChop]

The skinny dude whose scanner was so sensitive a metal filling would make it go off . The he loved to wand people. Too funny . I was on the flight when a board of regents member made a bomb joke and was taken off the flight

For Chrissakes.

Was he/she still on the Board of Regents when the next meeting rolled around?

 

[PeteTheChop]

The skinny dude whose scanner was so sensitive a metal filling would make it go off . The he loved to wand people. Too funny . I was on the flight when a board of regents member made a bomb joke and was taken off the flight

Ed,

With all due respect, you do agree this was the correct course of action, right?

S**t-faced wisecrack (making an assumption here) or not, can you imagine the potential repercussions for the airline or PMRA security if this individual was not removed from the flight?

 

[CougPatrol]

Let me make something clear to everyone. Air travel to Pullman for football games will never become a viable, mainstream option.

Never.

 

[CougEd]

Ed,

With all due respect, you do agree this was the correct course of action, right?

S**t-faced wisecrack (making an assumption here) or not, can you imagine the potential repercussions for the airline or PMRA security if this individual was not removed from the flight?

Of course... I am guessing common sense can’t be applied when talking about airplanes . The guy was drunk , if he did have a bomb not sure he had the motor functions to detonate it. It was just slightly amusing after basically all 20 people were basically stripped searched inside the airport, and this very powerful board of regents member was the guy who was booted off. But yes I understand that it was necessary

 

[ElComanche]

I only flew into Pullman once and i never did it again. Flights to Spokane and a rental car now do it for me. i would spend Friday and Saturday nights in Spokane and fly out Sunday. That is the only way to go for me

 

[PeteTheChop]

I only flew into Pullman once and i never did it again.

ElComanche,

What was the deciding factor?

$$$?

Not enough flight options?

A Pullman-Moscow Regional Airport that only appeals to minimalists?

It seems like flights into/out of Pullman and a couple Lyfts/Ubers to/fro Martin Stadium would be more desirable than fighting clogged-up game traffic on your return trip to Spokane International.

 

[CougInSpain]

Good point. CDL hours limitation is eleven hours with a one hour rest time. So ten hours on the road. So unless one of the passengers has an appropriate license- wouldn't have to be interstate- the charter bus would need to hire two drivers.

If that's the case, then setting up a meeting point where its 5 hours drive time to Pullman from the west side is very achievable. Maybe somewhere like Snoqualmie or Northbend. Don't need two drivers at that point? Have someone else drive to the meeting spot, then a fresh driver take over from there. In any case, maybe it might be worth looking into, maybe not.

 

[Loyal Coug]

If that's the case, then setting up a meeting point where its 5 hours drive time to Pullman from the west side is very achievable. Maybe somewhere like Snoqualmie or Northbend. Don't need two drivers at that point? Have someone else drive to the meeting spot, then a fresh driver take over from there. In any case, maybe it might be worth looking into, maybe not.

Well I think that everything is worth looking into, whether is travel to Football game day or anything else. WSU Athletics has to be a little more creative, and work a little harder. At everything.

 

[kayak15]

If that's the case, then setting up a meeting point where its 5 hours drive time to Pullman from the west side is very achievable. Maybe somewhere like Snoqualmie or Northbend. Don't need two drivers at that point? Have someone else drive to the meeting spot, then a fresh driver take over from there. In any case, maybe it might be worth looking into, maybe not.

I thought about that but it is cutting it pretty close. Slow driving due to accidents on the road, construction delays and the ever popular snow and ice on Snoqualmie could cause a problem. Resulting in a gaggle of old geezers thumbing a ride on Hwy 26 outside Washtucna which would go into the list of amusing Cougar lore. "Remember the time when those fools had to hitchhike to Martin? And finally made it midway into the third quarter! Hahaha!" I have done enough dumb things in my life already and am trying not to add to the list anymore than necessary.

Ellensburg might work but then you are a third of the way there anyway and might as well keep driving.

Bottom line is that I cannot see any viable way of doing this under current CDL regulations without two drivers, which would add to the expense.