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Choir & Football same risks for...

Coug95man2

Coug95man2

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Dec 7, 2011
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Neurological diseases in the future. The article out of Lake O is linked below but the Mayo Clinic study is here:

Mayo Clinic

EDIT: I'd read the Lake O article first, as it's a father perspective whom happens to be a Stanford researcher, as well. It's also not quite so deep as the Mayo Clinic research findings article.
This post was edited on 2/11 10:05 AM by Coug95man2

Lake O article
 
My son is in 6th grade and plays football, basketball and lacrosse. As far as injuries go, I don't worry that much about concussions, probably because my kid is tall and skinny and his head is outside of the contact zone. I worry more about knee injuries, and broken arms and broken legs. IMO, the serious injury risk is a blow to the midsection. At the youth level in particular, and high school isn't too good either, the midsection is exposed and they don't wear rib pads. The midsection is where your liver and spleen are located. Every once in a while a high school kid will die from a ruptured liver. We understand how serious Halliday's lacerated liver injury was. At the youth level kids don't have the muscle mass, or mass in general, to help protect against injuries.

I don't know if the integrated compression shirts with the pads sewn in around the ribs, shoulders and spine make a difference. But my son wears one for football, even though it's "not cool." Apparently the girdle he wears for lacrosse with thigh, hip and tailbone pads is cool, so no complaints on that one.
 
Originally posted by dgibbons:
My son is in 6th grade and plays football, basketball and lacrosse. As far as injuries go, I don't worry that much about concussions, probably because my kid is tall and skinny and his head is outside of the contact zone. I worry more about knee injuries, and broken arms and broken legs. IMO, the serious injury risk is a blow to the midsection. At the youth level in particular, and high school isn't too good either, the midsection is exposed and they don't wear rib pads. The midsection is where your liver and spleen are located. Every once in a while a high school kid will die from a ruptured liver. We understand how serious Halliday's lacerated liver injury was. At the youth level kids don't have the muscle mass, or mass in general, to help protect against injuries.

I don't know if the integrated compression shirts with the pads sewn in around the ribs, shoulders and spine make a difference. But my son wears one for football, even though it's "not cool." Apparently the girdle he wears for lacrosse with thigh, hip and tailbone pads is cool, so no complaints on that one.
Click to expand...
my son is past that stage now, but the pads you mention were at the time not cool and for wimps etc...My boy switched from football to rugby and he got much less physical abuse IE: big bumps and b ruises but he also got a severe concussion which kept him out of action for 2 months
 
couple things. Many of the same nanny crowd--the demographics skew significantly toward female, urban, well-to-do folks--drive the anti-hunting/trapping push, and those sports/hobbies/jobs are going down too. The US is becoming more and more an urban country (like the entire world). That means if you want to see the future, look at the values held dear in Manhattan, Chicago, Miami, Boston, San Fran, Seattle, PDX, etc. Yes, it is still a mixed bag but it is overwhelmingly liberal, wealthy, anti-"violence" in any and every form they can shake a tennis shoe at: hunting, football, hockey, etc. OF COURSE there are also 10000s of rabid fans of violent sports in many of those cities, but you get my point, right? The numbers are changing, and they're changing quite rapidly.

As we become more urban we start adopting urban values. Again, speaking mega-trends, stats driven. We can all think of exceptions.

Look at such cultural practices as corporal punishment (school and home), violence on the playground, etc, "Learning how to take care of yourself," etc. Watch old shows like Leave it to Beaver, Father Knows Best, etc., etc. in which it was simply routine and expected for the father to teach his son to take care of himself....Now imagine a similar show today.....the boy would be instructed to RUN TO AN AUTHORITY FIGURE IN THE SCHOOL, CLAIM BULLYING AND DUCK AND COVER! Preferably shrieking. Look at who dominates the nighttime sit-coms: males like Jerry Seinfeld, Raymond, the supposed guy in "Yes Dear," etc. We still have the odd exception (King of Queens as a modern redo of the old Honeymooners) but ever since the Alda model of the 1970s, males have been "De-testostroned" at an astonishing rate. And no sport across the country has been vilified more than football. Long ago, high schools and colleges had boxing teams. (Isn't boxing the only sport the cougs won a NC in?)....now how many schools have that?

There will come a time, after we are gone, that football will be gone. Unlike boxing, you need a LOT of people to have a football team....so we cannot eliminate football in the youth leages and HS and expect it will continue in college. Its days are numbered. Obama is the new man: effeminate, smiling, affable, non-violent, amenable, no principles that are not open to negotiation, apron-wearing, crying, empathetic, sympathetic, simpering. There is no place for football in that world. Sorry.
 
Great post SC. The feminization of men has been going on for a long time. Men are always the butt of jokes on TV, the female is always right etc....when's the last time you saw an actual mae with his balls attached on TV?

A man smacking an attractive woman on the bottom like James Bond in Goldfinger wouldn't fly in today's society.

I fear I'll see the demise of football in my day.
 
Find me a TV show where a big fat dumb woman is married to a 9-10 type of guy.

You won't. Roseanne gets John Goodman, Melissa McCarthy gets Billy Gardell, Kevin James gets... Leah Remini. Really?
 
As usual, not sure what your post has to do with my post... but should probably reel the discussion back to football anyway
 
I'm with you, Sponge. My tiny HS had only 425 students (3 grades) in my day....and 75 turned out for football...for 2 a days. That's just what was done. I'm afraid we're walking anachronisms......

For a whole bunch of reasons, football has been moved solidly into the crosshairs.....ironically, the people who are killing it would not THINK of killing anyone or anything....
 
I don't see the core aspects of SC's post as being political, as much as it is a comment on the inevitable shift in values and cultural norms as population migrates from rural to urban settings. The "why" of that issue is definitely political, but the sheer reality of the shift itself is as hard to deny as the change in size of the polar ice caps. This cultural shift will definitely impact football. I think it will happen sooner, rather than later, due mostly to added impetus from the head trauma issue. But we'll see how that goes.

In my high school of 200 we had 60 for two a days. My mom wouldn't let me turn out as a freshman because she felt that I was too small (and perhaps she was right); I felt shame. I played the next 3 years. Most of the E WA small schools were similar back in the '70's.
 
Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, back in my day (which was the 70s) football was the expected outlet, and for boys only, thank you. Our "health and PE teacher" was also the football coach, and I remember one winter day (still good weather) when he discussed "soccer." He found a few soccer balls, rolled them out to the field behind the HS and anyone who wanted to play "that sport" could go kick them around!! That was it. I still remember the encouraged disdain all us football players felt for any *ussy that would play "that sport."

Now soccer has taken over the schools in the area, somewhat also due to migration patterns, as more Hispanics have moved in and their love and passion for soccer is well known. In fact, I heard that my old high school is going to build a new stadium...and it will be "primarily" designed FOR soccer, but with the ability to play football on it!! It is impossible to separate sports from politics or social realities. As the popularity for soccer has gone up, the energy, passion, (and budget dollars) for football has declined. Funny how soccer has been able to fly under the radar as far as injuries and concussions go (and that is an issue), but I suspect that some of their "invisibility" is due to their hiding in football's shadow among the elite. When football goes away, after being killed by Patty Murray clones, then soccer will likewise find itself under the spotlight.....

Violent sports are disappearing, in the order of their violence. Soon all physical contact sports will either be banned in high schools or so tightly constrained by rules that participants will dress like the Michelin Man....Oh sorry, Michelin person.




This post was edited on 2/13 2:58 AM by SCglory
 
Originally posted by SCglory:
Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, back in my day (which was the 70s) football was the expected outlet, and for boys only, thank you. Our "health and PE teacher" was also the football coach, and I remember one winter day (still good weather) when he discussed "soccer." He found a few soccer balls, rolled them out to the field behind the HS and anyone who wanted to play "that sport" could go kick them around!! That was it. I still remember the encouraged disdain all us football players felt for any *ussy that would play "that sport."

Now soccer has taken over the schools in the area, somewhat also due to migration patterns, as more Hispanics have moved in and their love and passion for soccer is well known. In fact, I heard that my old high school is going to build a new stadium...and it will be "primarily" designed FOR soccer, but with the ability to play football on it!! It is impossible to separate sports from politics or social realities. As the popularity for soccer has gone up, the energy, passion, (and budget dollars) for football has declined. Funny how soccer has been able to fly under the radar as far as injuries and concussions go (and that is an issue), but I suspect that some of their "invisibility" is due to their hiding in football's shadow among the elite. When football goes away, after being killed by Patty Murray clones, then soccer will likewise find itself under the spotlight.....

Violent sports are disappearing, in the order of their violence. Soon all physical contact sports will either be banned in high schools or so tightly constrained by rules that participants will dress like the Michelin Man....Oh sorry, Michelin person.





This post was edited on 2/13 2:58 AM by SCglory
Click to expand...
While I agree that there is an element of sissification of America has taken place. It isn't a uniquely American problem. But the football problems have more to do with safety and are readily fixable. It starts with teaching protecting the head first, like the good old days. I played football and rugby in the early 70's. The techniques taught were very similar. As helmet technology improved football changed, the head became a weapon and it became a collision sport. Leading with the head became the norm in many aspects of the game. You seldom see wrap up tackling any more. In rugby there is incentive to protect your head, not only do you not wear a helmet, but if you get injured, and must be replaced, you are done for the game, generally. Also you need to control a player to the ground, so blowing him off his feet is ineffective.

It has started to change, less contact in practice, and penalizing targeting, but incentives to protect the head remain lacking.
 
All that is true, and I agree. I still remember a tackling drill in HS...I was a junior, and two guys hit head on....there was a crack that resonated on the field. The supervising asst coach yelled: "THAT'S the way to hit!!" but the 2 guys both lay on the ground....They were OK, but seeing them lying there might quite an impression on us, more than the coach's encouragement. We were taught to hit with the head UP, and never with the crown of the helmet., etc

Nonetheless, it is all about perception, and participation in youth leagues is declining (see link). If this trend continues, there will be nothing left to "fix." If the pipeline dries up at the source, the crops at the other end will wither.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/page/popwarner/pop-warner-youth-football-participation-drops-nfl-concussion-crisis-seen-causal-factor
 
All about whom you surround yourself with, in regards to the "sissification" of our world. Football, yeah its dead. Sooner? Later? Don't know but it's dead.

But the sissification is all about where you choose to be, what your priorities are, if you choose to stay quiet on your beliefs or not. I live in an area where the school is still connected to the FFA and they have a skeet shooting team. A VERY good one, BTW. Is this an example of "growth"? Nope. Schools that have FFA are dwindling quickly, let alone one that is associated with a gun club. But for those mentioning the "Wussification" of our world, how many still go down to the swankiest bar in town to treat their lady instead of heading to the gun range to show them how to defend themselves? How many go out to cut their own wood for the winters, occasional fire? There's example after example. And for the most part I get why! Time. Never enough of it. But again, goes back to priorities. People may complain about it, but they're a part of it.

EDIT: I'll also say this… I'm showing my age. As a youngster, all I wanted to do was get to the city where it's easier to slip into this "sissification"… Now I can't get far enough away from it.
This post was edited on 2/13 7:50 AM by Coug95man2
 
It's said that the last wild grizzly bear in Oregon was killed up near Billy Meadows in the Wallowas, back in 1936. I suppose you, like that bear, can keep retreating, backing up till there's no where else to go. It's always a race, isn't it? The "sissification" is bigger than you, bigger than me. It's the laws that even that corrupt Kizaagoofus couldn't get away from.

Yeah, I know your area. It's a good area. But sooner or later, the laws, the mores, the attitudes will even get in there. It's in the air. And, as you know better than most, the air you breathe already came over the Willamette Valley before it got to you. Here is the latest in the whole rotten mess. A woman from one of the bluest states ever is suing Pop Warner League....I know what Glenn Quagmire would say....

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/02/05/pop-warner-youth-football-blamed-for-wisconsin-man-suicide/?intcmp=ob_article_footer_text&intcmp=obnetwork

PS EDIT: the largest black bear I ever saw was on a back road between Haines and Dale.....

This post was edited on 2/13 7:09 PM by SCglory
 
I grew up playing soccer and football. Had 4 concussions and broke my leg playing soccer. Not one concussion or major injury playing football. IMO soccer is a more dangerous sport...wide open, players running full speed flying in the air to head the ball, vicious tackles....no helmets. It's hilarious to me that these soccer moms say "my son isn't going to play football...too dangerous". Dumb.
 
I played football through high school. My #2 son played soccer through high school. I'm pretty firmly convinced that the overall chance of injury is similar; perhaps just a bit more in football; but it really depends more on the type of injury under discussion.

In all the years of my son's SoCal travel team and high school soccer, I never saw a broken collar bone, damaged kidney or liver, or a wiped out knee. Never even heard of an example of those or many other injuries at the many games, tournaments, etc. Not to say they are impossible, but I never saw one in all those years. But concussions? Or neck injuries? Even back injuries? I saw far more of those in soccer than football. You could probably make a case that the severity of the individual concussions when they occur might be worse in football, but there is no way you will convince me that repetitive small concussions are not more common in soccer under today's rules (I would not have said that 30-40 years ago, when the first thing a nose guard did after the snap was hit the center in the head with a taped and weighted forearm). Any soccer defender at any advanced level will probably have a couple of high impact headers in every game, plus what they get in practice, and that doesn't begin to talk about physical contact between players. Scrapes of all kinds, shin injuries (even with knee pads) and dental injuries of all types are also much more prevalent in soccer. Strains, pulls, and hand/finger injuries are probably pretty similar between the two. But no soccer player gets cleated like an O lineman, or leaves every practice and game with the collection of cuts, bruises, contusions, etc., that a lineman has below the shins. And as I mentioned previously, crippling knee injuries are a football phenomenon.

Both sports are contact sports and hence both sports result in injuries. Worse than both IMO are Australian Rules football, which takes the most physically dangerous parts of each game and combines them. But that is a separate thread.
 
I agree with a lot of the points in this thread, and while I see football changing in the youth ranks, there is simply too much money at the collegiate and professional level for me to ever envision it going away.
 
Originally posted by SCglory:
Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, back in my day (which was the 70s) football was the expected outlet, and for boys only, thank you. Our "health and PE teacher" was also the football coach, and I remember one winter day (still good weather) when he discussed "soccer." He found a few soccer balls, rolled them out to the field behind the HS and anyone who wanted to play "that sport" could go kick them around!! That was it. I still remember the encouraged disdain all us football players felt for any *ussy that would play "that sport."

Now soccer has taken over the schools in the area, somewhat also due to migration patterns, as more Hispanics have moved in and their love and passion for soccer is well known. In fact, I heard that my old high school is going to build a new stadium...and it will be "primarily" designed FOR soccer, but with the ability to play football on it!! It is impossible to separate sports from politics or social realities. As the popularity for soccer has gone up, the energy, passion, (and budget dollars) for football has declined. Funny how soccer has been able to fly under the radar as far as injuries and concussions go (and that is an issue), but I suspect that some of their "invisibility" is due to their hiding in football's shadow among the elite. When football goes away, after being killed by Patty Murray clones, then soccer will likewise find itself under the spotlight.....

Violent sports are disappearing, in the order of their violence. Soon all physical contact sports will either be banned in high schools or so tightly constrained by rules that participants will dress like the Michelin Man....Oh sorry, Michelin person.




This post was edited on 2/13 2:58 AM by SCglory
Click to expand...
"Why, in my day, our coach would have us run into a break wall until our helmets cracked open. We'd be bleeding when we came off the field but we still had enough about us to slap a few cheerleaders on the arse on our way to the lockerroom - and we liked it! And we didn't give a damn if they did, because they're women. God put'em on this earth for us to amuse ourselves!"


This post was edited on 2/15 12:35 PM by YakiCoug

Why, in MY day ...
 
Anyone who would have said "arse" back then would have deserved the beating that was coming. But I like Carvey
 
I think where most people think that the game is dying, is between 2 paths.

1. It's going to change so much, i.e. the "sissification" of the game, that it isn't going to resemble what we love.
2. The true death, without the youth ranks maturing, there is no collegiate or professional players. No kids to grow up and play, no football.
 
There was a time in the USA were boxing and horse racing were the two major sports. 50 years from now, football may still be the biggest sport. But, in my state at that time (a head in a glass), I would not be surprised if it is not.
 
Not sure what migration patterns have to do with soccer's growth. The fact that kids can start playing soccer in preschool would be the reason for growth, IMO.
 
Correct

Football and basketball provide full scholarships for up to 85 and 13 players per year per team. It's 9.9 for soccer.

And that's just looking at the D1 scholarship opportunities and ignoring pro leagues.
 
When an area (containing at least 8 schools) goes from 15-20% Hispanic to 80-85%...there are HUGE ramifications, everything from which stores survive and which don't, to restaurants, which playing fields are built, to types of cars. It's a SEA-CHANGE, Gib. And this has happened in 40 years
 
Re: Correct

Everyone needs to understand this:

IF THE SUPPLY DRIES UP DOWN BELOW--the Grid Kids, the Pop Warners, the Junior Highs....the ripple effect will collapse the sport, eventually reaching the crown of the tree. The reason it works now is because the decline in the youth leagues is still ahead of the (still strong) demand in the pros...but eventually -- if trends continue -- it will catch up, and the talent levels and numbers will go down. The best schools start taking lesser players, the those 2nd tier schools will dip down further, and so forth, We will see it first in the JCs. Just how many junior colleges still play football in Washington, anyway?? The ripple effect starts from below and works upward. But the soccer moms have not yet passed the tipping point, in terms of withholding their kids....we'll know it when they do, because then some HSs will start dropping football....and then it will spread...
 
Originally posted by SCglory:
When an area (containing at least 8 schools) goes from 15-20% Hispanic to 80-85%...there are HUGE ramifications, everything from which stores survive and which don't, to restaurants, which playing fields are built, to types of cars. It's a SEA-CHANGE, Gib. And this has happened in 40 years
Click to expand...
Do you actually use your brain?

1. If it happened 40 years ago, where is the impact? That's two generations. Football is still incredibly popular from youth through professional.

2. How is growth of a Latin population impacting suburban mothers and fathers decisions about their sons playing football?
3. How does your SEA-CHANGE relate to the growth of youth sports (or whatever level you're talking about)? There are simply far more sports available now then there were in the 70s.
 
Re: Correct

Originally posted by SCglory:
Everyone needs to understand this:

IF THE SUPPLY DRIES UP DOWN BELOW--the Grid Kids, the Pop Warners, the Junior Highs....the ripple effect will collapse the sport, eventually reaching the crown of the tree. The reason it works now is because the decline in the youth leagues is still ahead of the (still strong) demand in the pros...but eventually -- if trends continue -- it will catch up, and the talent levels and numbers will go down. The best schools start taking lesser players, the those 2nd tier schools will dip down further, and so forth, We will see it first in the JCs. Just how many junior colleges still play football in Washington, anyway?? The ripple effect starts from below and works upward. But the soccer moms have not yet passed the tipping point, in terms of withholding their kids....we'll know it when they do, because then some HSs will start dropping football....and then it will spread...
Click to expand...
THANK YOU CAPTAIN OBVIOUS.

WHERE IS THE DATA SHOWING SUPPLY IS ACTUALLY DRYING UP? Feel free to use CAPS if it makes you feel smarter. Mothers have been hesitant to allow their sons to play football for as long as football has been around.
 
Re: Correct

You're not exactly a guy that knows how to do research, are you? OK, I'll give you a paint by number, gibbons.

First, try this: https://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/page/popwarner/pop-warner-youth-football-participation-drops-nfl-concussion-crisis-seen-causal-factor

Can you tell by the link title? Maybe? Just a little bit? Then....try some different search terms, to find more. I used this one about 8 posts up. Didn't see it, did you? But let me hold your hand here...use terms like "youth football dropoff" or "Pop Warner decline," etc. See how that works? Now....you try that, then read. Don't post, just read. The trend is downward. If you still need help in figuring this out, then there are probably social programs for "special" people like yourself.
 
Now, because you're trying to play the big boy, I gotta educate you here too. OK. Now pay attention.

1. I NEVER SAID it "happened" 40 years ago, son. I said it STARTED 40 years ago. Do you get that. You really do have a reading comprehension problem...although your sig is "gibbon" so maybe I should call you "Koko?"
2. I never claimed that Latino population growth was responsible for "ALL" the decline, chucklehead. I said it contributed to the decline in my home region, and that is a fact. Also, one of the fastest growing populations in this country are Hispanics. Now which sport do you think is their favorite? Do you want some help on that?
3. Now....think hard, junior....what is the birthrate of the "White (not Hispanic or Latino)" category compared to Hispanic or Latino? How about immigration rates? (category name from the Voluntary Self-ID form, AA).

Do you really need me to keep holding your hand on this?? It is rare to meet someone so dense as to actually ask "What do population or migration trends have to do with football popularity?" I thought most people who needed help with that were institutionalized.

Truth be told there are numerous factors in the decline of football: concern over injuries, a decrease in the approval of school-sanction violence or contact sports, a feminization of this country, changing demographics due to immigration and population shifts. If you can't see this....well, then you're dumber than a sack of rocks.
 
Some studies

1. Ohio and Nationwide http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/sports/2014/08/17/some-kids-say-football-not-worth-the-effort.html

2. Mass. http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2013/11/23/football-slide-unpopularity-boxing/Dq99wTL1rxjrnPwOvhmSTL/story.html

3. Pop Warner http://www.nj.com/ledger-dalessandro/index.ssf/2013/11/dalessandro_historic_decline_in_youth_football_enrollment_suggests_parents_are_catching_on.html

4. Sports Illustrated http://www.si.com/si-wire/2013/11/13/youth-football-participation-drops

5. Mark Cuban's reasoning for decline http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/fewer-kids-are-playing-football-but-mark-cuban-might-be-wrong-about-why/

6. Here's an iconoclast who disagrees http://www.forbes.com/sites/bobcook/2014/09/25/youth-football-despite-reported-declines-is-about-as-popular-as-ever/ (very imaginative, but weak case...admits he "has no poll to cite")

7. National Federation of HS Associations: decline http://leagueoffans.org/2014/11/07/more-signs-of-decline-for-youth-and-high-school-football/

The evidence is overwhelming that there IS indeed a real decline, (b) it has been going on for some years, (c) there are multiple reasons for it.
 
Gee numerous factors like

Kids starting to play soccer in preschool? Or do I need to direct you to your own post about demographic shifts?

ALL CAPS DON'T MAKE YOU LOOK SMART.

Here is another obvious fact: Yakima is not the center of the universe (no offense Yaki). We're not the poor saps that pay tuition to hear you opine.
 
Re: Some studies

Glory, I thought you were writing a book. This topic seems a bit far afield. You must not have any classes tomorrow.
 
Originally posted by SCglory:
Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, back in my day (which was the 70s) football was the expected outlet, and for boys only, thank you. Our "health and PE teacher" was also the football coach, and I remember one winter day (still good weather) when he discussed "soccer." He found a few soccer balls, rolled them out to the field behind the HS and anyone who wanted to play "that sport" could go kick them around!! That was it. I still remember the encouraged disdain all us football players felt for any *ussy that would play "that sport."

Now soccer has taken over the schools in the area, somewhat also due to migration patterns, as more Hispanics have moved in and their love and passion for soccer is well known. In fact, I heard that my old high school is going to build a new stadium...and it will be "primarily" designed FOR soccer, but with the ability to play football on it!! It is impossible to separate sports from politics or social realities. As the popularity for soccer has gone up, the energy, passion, (and budget dollars) for football has declined. Funny how soccer has been able to fly under the radar as far as injuries and concussions go (and that is an issue), but I suspect that some of their "invisibility" is due to their hiding in football's shadow among the elite. When football goes away, after being killed by Patty Murray clones, then soccer will likewise find itself under the spotlight.....

Violent sports are disappearing, in the order of their violence. Soon all physical contact sports will either be banned in high schools or so tightly constrained by rules that participants will dress like the Michelin Man....Oh sorry, Michelin person.





This post was edited on 2/13 2:58 AM by SCglory
Click to expand...
You're wrong about that too. Lacrosse is growing like crazy at the youth level.
 
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