Cougs in the NFL

[Flatlandcoug]

I saw an article the other day talking about roster cuts and I was surprised to see that we are down to just seven players in the NFL. I'm sure it was lower at some point under Wulff, but I had thought we were making some progress in that area but apparently not.

Iowa State, Duke, and Arizona are the only Power 5 schools with fewer NFL players than Wazzu. It says a lot about the quality of Leach's coaching, because we won a lot of games without getting a lot of guys on NFL rosters, but it also shows that his recruiting probably won't be all that hard to match.

 

[Cougsocal]

Mike Leach is among the best "more with less" coaches in the business, if not at the very top. It is tough to recruit to TT, WSU and MSU, but Mike certainly doesn't help. What surprised me was the lack of improvement in recruiting despite all his success. I assumed that once the wins and bowls started happening, we'd start to be in the middle tier recruiting wise. It never happen, even with an Oregon-lite FOB to sweeten the pot.

Remember folks, there is a distinction between recruiting (signing sought after kids) and talent evaluation (identifying lightly regarded kids who can play at the Pac-12 level). Leach was very good at the latter, the former was the problem and the far richer talent pool.

 

[ttowncoug]

Leach is who he is. Agree, his scheme utilized talent that was available to recruit to WSU.

Grinch's speed D did the same. Get kids that can run and hit.

I personally think Leach laid the "success" blue print here at WSU. Hopefully Rolo and Co. take it to the next level.

 

[mikalalas]

Leach is who he is. Agree, his scheme utilized talent that was available to recruit to WSU.

Grinch's speed D did the same. Get kids that can run and hit.

I personally think Leach laid the "success" blue print here at WSU. Hopefully Rolo and Co. take it to the next level.

The Mike Price Offense, Run and Shoot, Air Raid, Spread, 3,4 WR, 1 RB Offenses, passing attacks are, is WSU's bread and butter, what works consistently well at WSU.

That is the blue print. That and good teaching, repping, using, coaching, recruiting to that blue print.

Both Mike Price, and Leach showed that it can, could be done at WSU. Leach more consistently.

Before someone says Mike Price was inconsistent, which is true, and that that because of that his offense not good.

Mike Price's offenses were good. And while Mike Price was good at recruiting to his offense, he wasnt as good as Leach's consistency.

Also is Leach were to run, coach the Mike Price Offense, Leach would probably do a better job, be more consistently good with the Mike Price Offense then Mike Price.

That Mike Price wasnt as consustently good is a reflection on Mike Price, not the Mike Price Offense.

The Mike Price Offense, and Run and Shoot Offenses are similar to the Air Raid, and just as good as the Air Raid at, for WSU.

The question about Rolo, is not whether his Run and Shoot can succeed at WSU. That shouldnt be the question as it can and should succeed at WSU.

The real questions are whether Rolo can teach, coach, use, recruit, etc, his should be successful at WSU Run and Shoot to be consistently successful at WSU.

IF he cant, and or if he cant have good defense, then his should be successful Run and Shoot, wont be consistently successfully good at WSU.

Not because the Run and Shoot cant be consistently good at WSU. It can, should be. But rather it woukd be because of if Rolo wasnt a good coach.

Not only do you need a right, good system like the Mike Price Offense, Run and Shoot, Air Raid, etc, that are good offenses for WSU, WSU needs GOOD COACHING.

Without Good Coaching, it doesnt matter how good the offenses at WSU is.

But without a good offense for WSU like the Air Raid, Run and Shoot, Mike Price Offense, etc, then no matter how good the coach is, the coach probably wont be consistently successful

You really need BOTH a great coach, and a good offense, like Air Raid, Run an Shoot, Mike Price Offense, and a good defense, to be consistently good at WSU.

That is what will consistently work at WSU

And Leach has proved it, and to a lesser extent, Mike Price has proved it as well.

 

[Cougsocal]

The Mike Price Offense, Run and Shoot, Air Raid, Spread, 3,4 WR, 1 RB Offenses, passing attacks are, is WSU's bread and butter, what works consistently well at WSU.

That is the blue print. That and good teaching, repping, using, coaching, recruiting to that blue print.

Both Mike Price, and Leach showed that it can, could be done at WSU. Leach more consistently.

Before someone says Mike Price was inconsistent, which is true, and that that because of that his offense not good.

Mike Price's offenses were good. And while Mike Price was good at recruiting to his offense, he wasnt as good as Leach's consistency.

Also is Leach were to run, coach the Mike Price Offense, Leach would probably do a better job, be more consistently good with the Mike Price Offense then Mike Price.

That Mike Price wasnt as consustently good is a reflection on Mike Price, not the Mike Price Offense.

The Mike Price Offense, and Run and Shoot Offenses are similar to the Air Raid, and just as good as the Air Raid at, for WSU.

The question about Rolo, is not whether his Run and Shoot can succeed at WSU. That shouldnt be the question as it can and should succeed at WSU.

The real questions are whether Rolo can teach, coach, use, recruit, etc, his should be successful at WSU Run and Shoot to be consistently successful at WSU.

IF he cant, and or if he cant have good defense, then his should be successful Run and Shoot, wont be consistently successfully good at WSU.

Not because the Run and Shoot cant be consistently good at WSU. It can, should be. But rather it woukd be because of if Rolo wasnt a good coach.

Not only do you need a right, good system like the Mike Price Offense, Run and Shoot, Air Raid, etc, that are good offenses for WSU, WSU needs GOOD COACHING.

Without Good Coaching, it doesnt matter how good the offenses at WSU is.

But without a good offense for WSU like the Air Raid, Run and Shoot, Mike Price Offense, etc, then no matter how good the coach is, the coach probably wont be consistently successful

You really need BOTH a great coach, and a good offense, like Air Raid, Run an Shoot, Mike Price Offense, and a good defense, to be consistently good at WSU.

That is what will consistently work at WSU

And Leach has proved it, and to a lesser extent, Mike Price has proved it as well.

Mike Leach did a great job turning a moribund program around, and is a truly great pure football coach, but success in Cougar football, historically, is measured in Rose Bowls and Apple Cup wins, and he did essentially none of it. You need more than good coaching and a good systems, which Leach is and has, frankly. You need better talent as well. There is a reason why Mike Leach led Cougar teams never won the North, never went to a major bowl and lost 7 straight to the Dawgs, all in embarrassing fashion. Flat points it out.

I can do with less Leach type "consistency," a few less Boise, New Mexico, Sun and less than Holiday bowls, if Rolo runs up the score on the Dawgs a time or two, wins the North and/or the Pac-12. That is what Coug fans will remember, long term. Honestly, who here will be happy with Rolo if he continues Leach's Apple Cup beat down legacy, and follows it by a series of underwhelming second and third tier bowl performances?

 

[WASH ST A&M FAN]

but success in Cougar football, historically, is measured in Rose Bowls and Apple Cup wins

This might be the most misguided statement ever typed on this message board. I’m not joking.......

 

[Brent H.]

This might be the most misguided statement ever typed on this message board. I’m not joking.......

Yea, I have no idea what to make of Price’s career now. I mean two Rose Bowls but 3-11 in Apple Cups compared to Doba no Rose Bowls 3-2 in Apple Cups. WH

 

[dgibbons]

Yea, I have no idea what to make of Price’s career now. I mean two Rose Bowls but 3-11 in Apple Cups compared to Doba no Rose Bowls 3-2 in Apple Cups. WH

And Walden was 3-6 and almost got to the Rose Bowl that one time.

Of course, I already have thoughts on his career.

 

[mikalalas]

Mike Leach did a great job turning a moribund program around, and is a truly great pure football coach, but success in Cougar football, historically, is measured in Rose Bowls and Apple Cup wins, and he did essentially none of it. You need more than good coaching and a good systems, which Leach is and has, frankly. You need better talent as well. There is a reason why Mike Leach led Cougar teams never won the North, never went to a major bowl and lost 7 straight to the Dawgs, all in embarrassing fashion. Flat points it out.

I can do with less Leach type "consistency," a few less Boise, New Mexico, Sun and less than Holiday bowls, if Rolo runs up the score on the Dawgs a time or two, wins the North and/or the Pac-12. That is what Coug fans will remember, long term. Honestly, who here will be happy with Rolo if he continues Leach's Apple Cup beat down legacy, and follows it by a series of underwhelming second and third tier bowl performances?

Mike Leach did a great job turning a moribund program around, and is a truly great pure football coach, but success in Cougar football, historically, is measured in Rose Bowls and Apple Cup wins, and he did essentially none of it. You need more than good coaching and a good systems, which Leach is and has, frankly. You need better talent as well. There is a reason why Mike Leach led Cougar teams never won the North, never went to a major bowl and lost 7 straight to the Dawgs, all in embarrassing fashion. Flat points it out.

I can do with less Leach type "consistency," a few less Boise, New Mexico, Sun and less than Holiday bowls, if Rolo runs up the score on the Dawgs a time or two, wins the North and/or the Pac-12. That is what Coug fans will remember, long term. Honestly, who here will be happy with Rolo if he continues Leach's Apple Cup beat down legacy, and follows it by a series of underwhelming second and third tier bowl performances?

1. You missed the main point that I was making about the Air Raid, Run and Shoot, Price's 1 back, spread offense.

2. Instead you go away from the main point.

3. Your remembrance, selection, etc, of the facts is not good.

4. Price did have a technically higher ceiling, and a semi almost semi near semi wulffian LOW 2,3 win BASEMENT.

5. Price was not only CONSISTENTLY INCONSISTENT. He was TECHNICALLY a semi consistent at having semi consistent losing seasons.

6. Prices ratio was 1 winning season, 1 bowl per every 2,3,4 LOSING, only 2,3,4 wins, NO BOWL, seasons.

7. And as someone pointed out. Price was 3-11 in the Apple Cup.

8. Now this is not to rag on Price. Price was a good coach.

But this is to COMPARE Price to Leach, since you made the comment you did.

9. Leach only had 1,2, only 3 wins season, unlike Price, and that was because of WULF. If it had been Price that had followed Wulf, Price would probably have had 4,5,6 , 2,3,4 win seasons, and either fired, or would have gotten 6,7,8 wins the next year after that.

10. As Far as bowl games comparison. Yes Price had a rosebowl, but if take away that, Price had:

A. Copper Bowl. B. Sun Bowl C. Aloha Bowl. D. Alamo Bowl

Leach had 2. Sun bowls. 2 Holiday Bowls, 1 Alamo Bowl, etc.

So except for the Rosebowl, pretty much the same kind of bowls fir hoth coaches.

Also even tho Leach Alamo Bowl was the Alamo Bowl, it was a 11-2 season. And Leach, cougs were SNUBBED, as 11-2 shoukd have been a guaranteed NY6 Bowl. AKA the Fiesta Bowl, Cotton Bowl, Orange Bowl, Sugar Bowl, etc.

So because of that, even tho Leach's Bowl wasnt technically a TOP BOWL, he should still be given credit for a TOP BOWL SEASON, A PRICE LIKE 10 WIN ROSEBOWL LIKE SEASON.

11. Wh8ch brings me to next point that Price NEVER WON 11 ELEVEN GAMES, like Leach did.

12. Also if it wasnt for the REFS CHEATING LEACH, WSU OUT OF A USC WIN, And if it wasnt for the BLIZZARD APPLE CUP BOWL, WSU, Leach would have been either 12-1, 13-0, and either would have played in the PLAY OFF for a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP, an or would have at least been in the Rosebowl.

Because of that Leach does, should get credit for that.

So because of that Leaches Ceiling is a Conference Championship, Rosebowl, NY6, playoff.

13. So same ceiling as price.

14. Price was in Pullman longer, at about 11 to 13 seasons. Leach 8 seasons. If Leach had been at WSU for 13 to to 17 seasons, he would have eventually had 1,2,3 conference championships, Rosebowls, NY6, just like Price, in addition to his 11 win season.

Anyway you look at it, slice it, Leach won more consistently. Had more consistent winning seasons, bowl games.

Also if given the choice between 5 to 10 to 15 straight winning seasons, bowl ganes under Leach, or 3 losing seasons, 1 winning season, bowl game, 3 10 win seasons, Rosebowl. I would Take Leach.

Ore State under Riley had 10 TEN STRAIGHT WINNING SEASONS, BOWL GAMES

Many dont realize how good that is, whether its Ore St, or WSU with 4,5 straight winning seasons, bowl games.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Yea, I have no idea what to make of Price’s career now. I mean two Rose Bowls but 3-11 in Apple Cups compared to Doba no Rose Bowls 3-2 in Apple Cups. WH

It's more complicated than just looking at wins and losses. That 3-11 record sucked, but five of those losses came down to single plays and outside of the 2000 disaster, every game from 1994 to 2002 was a knife where either team could win. They were good, exciting games for the most part in that period.

The hardest thing about AC's under Leach was the complete lack of drama by the end of the first quarter in almost every game. 2018 was the only time in the last seven years where we could pretend like we had chance after 15 minutes.

 

[Cougsocal]

And Walden was 3-6 and almost got to the Rose Bowl that one time.

Of course, I already have thoughts on his career.

Yea, I have no idea what to make of Price’s career now. I mean two Rose Bowls but 3-11 in Apple Cups compared to Doba no Rose Bowls 3-2 in Apple Cups. WH

You do! His career like that on Doba, Walden, Leach are all a mixed bag. Pretend all you want folks, but Cougars play football to win championships and beat the Huskies. The fact we haven't done enough of either, doesn't change that. You read any book or treatise on Cougar football and its focus will be 1915, 1930, 1997, 2002, followed by memorable Apple Cups.

Walden will always be remembered most historically for his near miss and the highly improbable 1982 win against the #5 UW. Price took us to two Rose Bowls, but his legacy will always include losing too many games he shouldn't have to the Dawgs, 2001 and 2002 being the utter worst. In turn, his greatest victory -- the 1992 Apple Cup. Doba beat the Dawgs more times than not, but he lost his defining game to them when the #8 Cougs lost to the underdog 5-6 "Gilby led" Dawgs by double digits. There went the New Years Day bowl game and the program Price had built. Leach will be remembered for the amazing program turnaround he engineered and for being the worst Apple Cup coach, bar none, is school history. The "horrible 7" will always live in Cougar infamy. Honestly, do you seriously think Leach is going to be remembered more for the Sun Bowl win and the Game Day victory over a seriously overrated Oregon?

 

[Flatlandcoug]

You do! His career like that on Doba, Walden, Leach are all a mixed bag. Pretend all you want folks, but Cougars play football to win championships and beat the Huskies. The fact we haven't done enough of either, doesn't change that. You read any book or treatise on Cougar football and its focus will be 1915, 1930, 1997, 2002, followed by memorable Apple Cups.

Walden will always be remembered most historically for his near miss and the highly improbable 1982 win against the #5 UW. Price took us to two Rose Bowls, but his legacy will always include losing too many games he shouldn't have to the Dawgs, 2001 and 2002 being the utter worst. In turn, his greatest victory -- the 1992 Apple Cup. Doba beat the Dawgs more times than not, but he lost his defining game to them when the #8 Cougs lost to the underdog 5-6 "Gilby led" Dawgs by double digits. There went the New Years Day bowl game and the program Price had built. Leach will be remembered for the amazing program turnaround he engineered and for being the worst Apple Cup coach, bar none, is school history. The "horrible 7" will always live in Cougar infamy. Honestly, do you seriously think Leach is going to be remembered more for the Sun Bowl win and the Game Day victory over a seriously overrated Oregon?

A lot of Leach's legacy is going to depend on how Rolovich and other future Coug coaches perform. It wasn't popular with some newer fans, but I think that the 1997 and 2002 teams would have wiped the field with any of Leach's teams.....including 2018 with Minshew. Those teams went toe to toe with some of the best teams in the entire country and won. That 1997 squad was one play away from beating the national champ and the 2002 team would have fared much better against OU if we hadn't had a one legged QB in the Rose Bowl and a lame duck coach. 2018's best win was over Utah, Stanford or Oregon (take your pick)....none of which finished the season ranked. Leach was the best at building consistency, but he never had a Coug team that anyone would consider to be a great team.

That said, if Wazzu pulls a Texas Tech and never matches Leach's results in the next 20 years, that will change how he is viewed. People seem to forget that Wulff is the only Coug coach in the past 40 years who failed to have a team with a shot to win a conference championship. If the field has shifted where we can't replicate that, Leach will be well regarded. One trip to the Pac-12 championship by Rolovich and Leach is going to be that guy that saved us from Wulff but not much more than that.

 

[Cougsocal]

I believe Leach is the best pure coach in the business, IMO. By that I mean he can take "his'n and beat your'n and then take your'n and beat his'n, better than anyone. But at WSU he need to, be because he was winning, by and large, with recruits that the likes of Walden, Erickson, Price and Doba would struggle to get to 4 or 5 wins with.

I believe Leach had 7 recruits drafted. By comparison Price, I believe, had 26 recruits drafted in the first seven rounds, 8 that played on the 2002 team alone. Remember, the 2002 squad was the writers and coaches favorite to win the conference, talent deprived, smoke and mirror teams don't get that accolade. They had the talent Leach could win a national championship with. Ultimately, anyone who claims that Leach had teams that talented isn't in touch with reality.

As for Leach's legacy, his accomplishments and failings run the full gammon. Hands down the best first 11-10 game coach in school history, bar none. He was an incredible 49 and 29 in pre-Apple Cup games, despite inheriting all the Wulff baggage. Frankly, even that truly amazing record is a bit unfair to him, he started out 2-9. This man also took Wulff's top 100 recruits, beat USC on the road and to a bowl game ... unbelievable. But he had the two most embarrassing losses in school history. Even dreadful Cougars teams didn't lose to Big Sky opponents, until Leach. He did it twice. Then there is the "horrible 7." The average 21+ point margin doesn't do it justice. How many moral victory points did we score and how many pity points did Peterson forgo to get the margin that close. Then their is the UCLA collapse, the second worst, all time, in the 100 plus years of college football. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, if there ever was one.

Finally, less not forget that Leach abandoned us not for a then power house Miami or blue blood Alabama, or even a UVa.

Considering that people bad mouth every past Cougar coach since Powers, even the guywho gave us our greatest modern day success, Leach won't escape it either, because the criticisms are fair. Like the rest, he didn't do enough to receive more than a mixed legacy.