Cougs smash Sun Devils
- Thread starter ElComanche
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The cougs completed the sweep of ASU .What is funny is that everyone wanted and lamented that the cougs did not hire Hurley or someone like him.The same coug fans cried in their beer because OSU had hired a wonderful coach. Well gents. OSU has won 4 total games this year and are 0-15 in PAC 12 play.Is it recruiting? coaching? The cougs have outperformed these coaches and teams in PAC 12 play. The coug fans have Lamented the coaching expertise of these coaches and their great recruiting abilities. Of course, the cougs are still bottom feeders but they are somewhere in the middle of the pack They should bounce hated rival udub next week to move up to 6 wins Las Vegas will favor them i am sure Respect is earned.
Hawkinson had 14 pts and 15 rbs, while Conner had 19 pts and 4 rbs in a positive strong effort. Flynn had 14 pts and 7 assists. Pollard had 5 pts and i rb in 6 minutes of play. It was a strong team effort by a team who got a reprimand from the coach after their effort against Arizona. It seem s they responded positively to it
Yeah we won and Clifford was the leading scorer but Jesus f=====ing Christ he turns the ball over a ton and makes a lot of abysmal decisions with the ball over the course of a game. Same can be said for Iregbou. Damn I hate being so negative after a win, but the frustration of watching this team play is incalculably annoying.
be happy, cougs won the game. we have a great coach things are trending in the right direction
Then dont be. Ike made a couple of mistakes but dominated ASU back court. Clifford is what he is. Kid works hard with what he has. Hard to be negative on Flynn. Not just a good shooter but he wants it in crunch time. Also you have to like what you are starting to see from Daniels. Good shooter, plays d, and is athletic
I truly cannot call Kent a "great coach" but he is a competent coach. Next year and the last of the recruiting class will show what kind of program he has truly developed.I hope they beat udub and win a game in the conference Tournament. That will certainly help recruiting
Probably only a handful of truly great coaches. I thought Dick Bennett was a borderline great coach simply because he was a defensive genious. I think Kent is better than Sampson or Raveling based on his success compared to them. He is certainly out of a different mold than Dick but again he has had at least comparable success. Pretty hard to measure greatness by success in Pullman. No coach at WSU since WW2 has left Pullman with a career conference record in excess of 500 except for Tony in his short 3 year stint
I thought Dickau's comments on Iroegbu were pretty accurate. I think he called him an enigma who is capable of making a good or bad impact on the game. Something like that anyway.
Flynn doesn't look like he will ever miss at times. I was amazed they managed to give him a lot of clean looks and he killed ASU.
Daniels is ok. I actually thought he had a lot of trouble defensively against ASU. He does play hard and his shooting is becoming more consistent. I'm not sure why franks isn't playing earlier. I actually like seeing him with Hawkinson a lot even though he's so hot and cold. Misses a 3, makes a 3, air balls a 3, blocked on a put back, makes a good interior move off the dribble. I have come around to the 'upside' comments you have made on Franks though. He's intriguing, needs to get in better shape, stronger, and consistently knock down shots. Could use a bit of fire lit under him. Needs to play with a lot more energy. I think you or someone compared him to Otis Jennings in this respect, which I thought was a good comparison in terms of personality.
Whatever, we won. Go Coug's!
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I do like what I'm seeing from Daniels, but no way in hell I put Kent up there with Sampson and Raveling. He had a couple of good years at Oregon based mainly on one recruiting class. The rest of it was borderline mediocre to downright bad. If he doesn't recruit some ready-to-play bigs for next season, it will be his fourth straight bottom of the league performance. That was not what I was hoping for Coug fortunes after Bone.
Raveling was a great recruiter but id not really do much with his talent. I think Kent is better than Raveling who was barely competent
I sat right behind Raveling for more games that I can count. The guy was so far in over his head on the bench at was a shock. Smart guy but he over coached to an extreme. Sampson couldnt put teams away. He blew double digit leads multiple times against UCLA and capped his career at WSU with a blown double digit lead against Boston College in the NCAA. He got the kids so jacked in the first half that there was only one way to go after half time.
Winning one game doesn't fix WSU basketballs problems. We are bad this year and look to be worse next year. Hurley and ASU finished ahead of us last year and are a head of us this year. Tinkle and OSU danced last year. All of which is irrelevant, Kent needs to be judged based on his performance not compared to others and so far his grade IMO is a C-
They've over performed this season vs my expectations (which were 2-3 conference wins). I'll take any conference wins we get at this point with no complaints.
Hurley will soon be tied with the cougs, Hurley supposedly out recruited Kent so with his superior coaching , he should have beaten him twice .Guess what dude? Tinkle danced because he inherited a great point guard who made him look good, He is on his own resources now and looks like an over matched lower conference coach. i like unlike uninformed fans who are forecasting disaster next year think the cougs may be a better team next year. Maybe we play ASU and OSU twice each next year? That may guarantee some success.
Well it will be Year 4 for Ernie which is when we should see the fruits of any coach's rebuilding effort. The entire roster will be his recruits. Anything less than a top half finish and an NIT bid will be a disappointment.
If anything less than a top half finish and NIT trip will be a disappointment you haven't been following Cougar hoops for very long. You can count the number of top half fineshes in the last 30 years on two hands. As I pointed out somewhere else no coach with over 3 years at the helm has left WSU with a 500 conference record since WW2.
I actually think we could be better next season. Flynn is a baller. Daniels is under rated and Franks has a chance to be special. Pollard is the type of blue collar guy every good team needs. Acquaah and Chidum look to be good additions Hinson gives us another much needed shooter, and Cooper gives improved interior defense. I don't get into predicting records any more, but I look forward to seeing these guys play.
I actually think we could be better next season. Flynn is a baller. Daniels is under rated and Franks has a chance to be special. Pollard is the type of blue collar guy every good team needs. Acquaah and Chidum look to be good additions Hinson gives us another much needed shooter, and Cooper gives improved interior defense. I don't get into predicting records any more, but I look forward to seeing these guys play.
Darn i wanted someone to bite on the Conner being a "pro prospect" Actually he is as his mother is Japanese and Japan has been sending people to look at him. A seven foot Japanese player should sell well in Japan.Perhaps he is a future Olympian and pro prospect? As the World turns!!
I have been following Cougar basketball for 35 years. Kelvin Sampson was inexperienced (and many say overrated) and he finished in the top half of the Pac 10 his 4th year of a rebuild, and never finished in the bottom half the rest of his tenure. Tony Bennett was completely inexperienced and made the NCAA tournament in what was the 4th year of a rebuild. Kent is an experienced and successful coach, I would think equaling Sampson's bar is no problem. He will no longer encumbered with Bone recruits and poor senior leadership the team suffered under this year. Kent already said talent is not an issue on the team after the Arizona game. Next year he will be playing with all his recruits so a major breakthrough to the top half of the conference and a nice post season run is in order.
I will be pleasantly surprised if this happens. Many posters will tell you that Kent s recruits are not that good. The senior leadership,Hawkinson ,Conner,and Ike will be missed. If Kent can replace their productivity and make the top half on the conference,he will be more than earning his paycheck. When Kent said "talent is not an issue,he was thinking of the senior leadership as being a big part of the available talent.
I completely disagree with the talk of being "pleasantly surprised" or "more than earning his paycheck" if we see a competitive team in Year 4. Going back even further, Raveling was fourth place in the conference in his Year 4. He was far less experienced than Kent is. Moos said himself when Kent was hired that basketball should be competing for a Pac-12 championship 2 out of every 4 years, and in the middle during the down years. Based on Kent's success at Oregon and the success of the inexperienced Raveling, Sampson, and Bennett during their fourth years, a sixth place finish and NIT should be the floor for expectations next year. I'm personally expecting much more, and I think Moos is too.
You are a far bigger homer than i have been accused of being on this board. It is interesting to see such a positive outlook and many here are going to disagree with you. it is one thing to have expectations,it is another thing to meet these expectations. How things come down is whether or not Kent s recruits are what you want them to be.Posters here are quick to point the numerous Juco recruits,the number of recruited players leaving the program and the poor records of Kent s teams, Kent s recruits ,so far,have not been rated highly and this disappoints many fans.I was pleased with both Pollard and Flynn and they are proving to be quality players. The jury is out but a few posters also like Daniels, and others.
Sampson go to one NCAA and 1 NIT in 7 years. If he had stayed in Pullman we would have ended up on probation sooner or kater. He also tried to poach or entire starting lineup to go to OK with him. The teambhis third year was much worse than this team. He was still under 500 in conference his 4th year with Seltzer Lewis etc
My bigger point is that Year 4 is when coaches should be judged and expectations should be met. They've had a chance to fill the roster with their own recruits, build their culture, and put all of their processes in place. If Ernie goes 8-10 next year and makes the NIT, based on Moos' expectations, the minimum will likely be met. (As a side note, Sampson's fourth team was one of the first out of the NIT, so likely would have made it in today's 68+32 format). As I said above, based on Ernie's experience and track record of success vs. Sampson's, I expect more. It should be a fun year to watch it all come together.
Sampson was 31 when he took over for Len Stevens and the program was pretty much gutted of talent. The AD required him to hire 'experienced' assistants with some name recognition in Dave Harshman and Kip Motta. That brought us the likes of Bubba Smith, LaVar Ball, and Juan Thomas the first few years.
Bennie Seltzer came in year 3 and the JCs followed a year later in his 'prove it' year. We probably should have received a Tournament invite the NIT year. At some point Sampson would have put us on probation but I have never heard there were any 'cut corner' with the players he tried to take with him to Oklahoma. I think they just did a good job recruiting Fontaine, Hendrickson, Ellison, Erdmann, Daniels, etc. but don't know that for a fact.
Bennie Seltzer came in year 3 and the JCs followed a year later in his 'prove it' year. We probably should have received a Tournament invite the NIT year. At some point Sampson would have put us on probation but I have never heard there were any 'cut corner' with the players he tried to take with him to Oklahoma. I think they just did a good job recruiting Fontaine, Hendrickson, Ellison, Erdmann, Daniels, etc. but don't know that for a fact.
Two people very close to the program told me about the attempt to take players with him to OK. It seemed to be common knowledge around Pullman at the time. There is no question that Sampson left the program in better shape than any coach to leave WSU, unless you count Dick Bennett.
Ernie spent a total of 19 years at St. Mary's and Oregon (6 at St. Mary's and 13 at Oregon). His record at St. Mary's was 90-80 (0.529) overall and 40-44 (0.476) conference. At Oregon he was 235-173 (0.576) overall and 109-125 (0.466) in conference. He was above 0.500 in conference only 6 times out of those 19 years. That reeks of mediocrity. If you're a 0.500 coach over a span of 19 years you're always going to be a 0.500 coach. Ernie's much like Mike Price. He'll have a few real good years and some abysmal years. There is nothing in his history that suggests he'll take us to the promised land for any sustained period of time.
First off... good win against ASU. This team has a lot more heart than last year. It was nice to see them bounce back after getting knocked around for a few games.
As Rich pointed out, the stats don't lie. EK was an okay coach at Oregon... he was nothing special. His teams beat up on weak non-conference opponents and then played about .500 ball in the PAC. I've tempered my long term expectations for our basketball program. We just don't seem to care enough to make the moves necessary to winning consistently in Pullman. Bennett ball was a proven winning strategy for winning with less talent buy the powers that be cared more about fun and exciting up-tempo basketball despite the years of history that show we can't win with it. Expect our program to get around 4-6 conference wins per year most years. We'll have a few 1-3 win seasons and every once and a while everything will come together and we'll go .500 in conference. It is what it is until the AD starting taking basketball as serious as football.
As Rich pointed out, the stats don't lie. EK was an okay coach at Oregon... he was nothing special. His teams beat up on weak non-conference opponents and then played about .500 ball in the PAC. I've tempered my long term expectations for our basketball program. We just don't seem to care enough to make the moves necessary to winning consistently in Pullman. Bennett ball was a proven winning strategy for winning with less talent buy the powers that be cared more about fun and exciting up-tempo basketball despite the years of history that show we can't win with it. Expect our program to get around 4-6 conference wins per year most years. We'll have a few 1-3 win seasons and every once and a while everything will come together and we'll go .500 in conference. It is what it is until the AD starting taking basketball as serious as football.
Nate Erdmann was only in Pullman because of Sampson so no surprise with him. Sampson went to the rest and asked them to come. I remember interviews with Hendrickson and Daniels that confirmed Sampson wanted them to transfer to OK.
I think most knew Sampson was going to move on but he was a 180 from Raveling who not only asked the players to stay but said he wouldn't allow them to transfer to Iowa. That was just Kelvin.
George Raveling, after year 3 as head coach, was 143-79 at Washington State. In those last 8 years, Raveling finished in the upper half of the conference 6 times and only under .500 in conference just once. That seems to me a little better than "barely competent." It took more than just recruiting talent to be that successful. His development of James Donaldson was one of the best jobs of player development I've ever seen. What he was able to do with the team that nearly beat Ralph Sampson and #1 Virginia was amazing...after losing Guy Williams with injury and with no true center.
As for the comment by another poster that he was "so far over his head on the bench it was a shock", I too sat next to the bench for 4 years as a student who was part of the statistics crew. I think George had trouble with in-game coaching for his first few years, but by the time the team was winning consistently, he had greatly matured with his game-time strategy. I had a chance, years after graduation, to speak with Ralph Miller about a wide-range of topics. He told me he had great respect for Raveling as a complete coach and commented on how much George had grown in all facets of coaching during his time at WSU.
If Ernie Kent can have an 8-year stretch like Raveling, starting next year (Year 4), he will also go down as one of WSU's best coaches ever.
Glad Cougar
I pretty much have a hard time with anyone who says a bad word about George Raveling. Absolute class act. Met him at his WSU hall of fame induction - and he called ME sir.
Raveling did an amazing job building the program in the 70s. It was a much different time but he made people feel a part of the program almost like an ownership of sorts. The way the surrounding area and students supported the program felt different in a good way than it ever has to me since. WSU hoops especially in the good years was an event you didn't want to miss. The season ticket and general admission side filled with students camping out to get the best seats for UCLA, OSU, and UW.
Raveling was labeled 'recruiter' and otherwise a bad coach. I don't think I have ever seen recruiting held against a coach more than it was with Raveling. He did bring in players we had no business signing but it wasn't like we recruited like UCLA or even OSU under Ralph Miller. As brought up his last team that lost Guy Williams and still made the tournament was a great coaching job.
I have never felt he received quite his proper due even from WSU. Some have said one reason he may have left for Iowa was lack of appreciation from the athletic department. Anyway, we were fortunate to have him in Pullman.
No one thought George could coach ... until he went 14-4 ... after losing Guy Williams. That was a hell of a coaching job. No coach has come close since, even when starting their best 5, all year. When Guy went down we lost our leading scorer, rebounder, block shot, "alley oop" master and steal man, in one go. Did I mention he was our best ball handler too, who was charged with bring the ball up court against the press, #2 in assists. People these days think it is all a Paul Bunyon like tall tale, but Guy was the "one man" show, not seen before or since.
14-4 without the best player to ever lace them up for the Cougs. Stop the George couldn't coach non-sense.
People have opinions and that is OK.A lot of other people knew a different George and suffice to say,it does not matter at this stage in the game,so to speak.
I went to several "Cougar Cage Camps" as a junior high/ middle school kid so to a star struck kid Rav was a genius lol.
I had a coaching mentor when I first started in the profession who as a young high school coach had worked some of the Cage camps. He used to tell a story of Rav sitting all the coaches down and telling them they needed to invest in a small up start shoe company in Oregon. Mentor used to say of all the things he learned and advice he took away from Rav why couldn't he have taken that advice
I had a coaching mentor when I first started in the profession who as a young high school coach had worked some of the Cage camps. He used to tell a story of Rav sitting all the coaches down and telling them they needed to invest in a small up start shoe company in Oregon. Mentor used to say of all the things he learned and advice he took away from Rav why couldn't he have taken that advice
