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Do "College Rankings" actually mean anything?

PeteTheChop

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May 25, 2005
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I wasn't familiar with the whole industry, but apparently schools are measured by subjective criteria and then ranked like football or basketball teams.

Apparently U.S. News and World Report's rankings are some sort of "gold standard", but the methodology seems confusing and possibly filled with errors.

For Washington, Gonzaga is #79, Seattle U is #139 and and WSU is #166 (looks like UW wasn't included for whatever reason).

Curious about what methodology could rank Gonzaga or Seattle U higher than a major research institution? Hard to believe GU's or SU's resources, prestige and recognition are anywhere near the level of a respected member of the Pac-12.

Just using the Metro Spokane as an example, I'd guess WSU gets the largest share of the cream of the crop students with Gonzaga a distant second and then maybe Whitworth? That's probably a better indicator than what a news magazine claims.

These rankings seem too political for parents and students to spend their money and take out student loans for 4 or 5 years.
 
I wasn't familiar with the whole industry, but apparently schools are measured by subjective criteria and then ranked like football or basketball teams.

Apparently U.S. News and World Report's rankings are some sort of "gold standard", but the methodology seems confusing and possibly filled with errors.

For Washington, Gonzaga is #79, Seattle U is #139 and and WSU is #166 (looks like UW wasn't included for whatever reason).

Curious about what methodology could rank Gonzaga or Seattle U higher than a major research institution? Hard to believe GU's or SU's resources, prestige and recognition are anywhere near the level of a respected member of the Pac-12.

Just using the Metro Spokane as an example, I'd guess WSU gets the largest share of the cream of the crop students with Gonzaga a distant second and then maybe Whitworth? That's probably a better indicator than what a news magazine claims.

These rankings seem too political for parents and students to spend their money and take out student loans for 4 or 5 years.

I haven't kept up with the rankings, but I thought they separated research institutions, commuter schools and private liberal arts schools into different categories, so GU and WSU would not be on the same list. In terms of education, a Tier 1 research institute like WSU is not in the same universe with GU.

With the McCarron guy going to UVA, it made me think more about rankings. I have long held the belief that outside of the Ivy League and Stanford and perhaps a few others, all the other schools are pretty much the same. Paying thousands of dollars for a marginal difference in someone's rating scale that could change by the time you graduate isn't worth it. A BA is a BA, and your effort in school, making contacts, and pursuing your future occupation or profession with internships or part time jobs in a related field stand out more than whether you graduated with a 3.34 GPA from the 28th ranked public school or a 3.43 from the 47th ranked public school. But if you're NOT paying your own way, I suppose marginal differences in rankings could have greater sway.
 
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I haven't kept up with the rankings, but I thought they separated research institutions, commuter schools and private liberal arts schools into different categories, so GU and WSU would not be on the same list. In terms of education, a Tier 1 research institute like WSU is not in the same universe with GU.

With the McCarron guy going to UVA, it made me think more about rankings. I have long held the belief that outside of the Ivy League and Stanford and perhaps a few others, all the other schools are pretty much the same. Paying thousands of dollars for a marginal difference in someone's rating scale that could change by the time you graduate isn't worth it. A BA is a BA, and your effort in school, making contacts, and pursuing your future occupation or profession with internships or part time jobs in a related field stand out more than whether you graduated with a 3.34 GPA from the 28th ranked public school or a 3.43 from the 47th ranked public school. But if you're NOT paying your own way cost, I suppose marginal differences in rankings could have greater sway.

I view it in tiers. There is a difference between Harvard and Stanford but not enough to worry about as a student. That's the top tier. I think there is a tier below this with Cal, Northwestern, and other schools with solid reputations. The next tier is the UW, Gonzaga, Seattle U tier. Nationally, I'd place WSU in this tier, though in Washington it doesn't carry the same weight. Then you have the tier for Western, Central, and Eastern. Finally, there are the diploma Mills.

Nothing worth getting bent out of shape over, but definitely something to consider.
 
I view it in tiers. There is a difference between Harvard and Stanford but not enough to worry about as a student. That's the top tier. I think there is a tier below this with Cal, Northwestern, and other schools with solid reputations. The next tier is the UW, Gonzaga, Seattle U tier. Nationally, I'd place WSU in this tier, though in Washington it doesn't carry the same weight. Then you have the tier for Western, Central, and Eastern. Finally, there are the diploma Mills.

Nothing worth getting bent out of shape over, but definitely something to consider.
For a bachelors degree I don’t see any difference in the quality of education you can get between any of those tiers or schools. Basically you are taught the same stuff from the same ( or equivalent) books wherever you go.

What you get for your 50k a year at an Ivy League or other highly rated private school is a bit of prestige. It’s worth it if you can afford it but not worth racking up a bunch of debt. Those schools are in the enviable position of getting to choose from among the brightest of the graduating high school seniors each year. The fact they are still among the brightest after college graduation doesn’t really have much to do with the quality of the education they got.
 
This gives the appearance of you attempting to trash WSU implicitly while maintaining deniability (again), Pete. What's next ... stuff like this? "I'm wondering whether any other universities have had two starting players in just a few seasons die. I'm wondering whether the respected, erudite posters on WazzuWatch have any thoughts on this and whether parents may start to question WSU's generally sterling safe reputation."
 
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Anyone read Bryan Caplan's Case Against Education? I think the name stamped on your degree is similar to that. Get a degree from a prestigious university, and it opens more doors initially in your career. But 20 years in? Your resumé is the determining factor.

In my field (as an electrical engineer), a degree is required for every position I've ever seen. There is no "BSEE or equivalent experience." So, sorry, going into the Navy, working as a radar technician with a 20 year career, you won't even get a glance if you applied even for an entry level EE job. But I don't think that's the case for government positions, law firms, etc. Say you have a JD from UofI, and have a great 20 year career as a lawyer. The only difference between you and that Harvard grad is who you know.

IMO, if there is any ranking, it is on the connections made while at school. And in that case, its basically just a Good ol' Boy club ranking.
 
For a bachelors degree I don’t see any difference in the quality of education you can get between any of those tiers or schools. Basically you are taught the same stuff from the same ( or equivalent) books wherever you go.
Perhaps now. But not 20 years ago. It was obvious which graduates had a strong grounding in theory, and those who were taught equations. They had no way to construct solutions to problems they hadn't already seen. WSU, UW, BYU, and OSU graduates had that strong background. UofI, BSU, and surprisingly, Oregon State, failed miserably. (My field is electrical engineering).

But now, all the graduates are uniformly abysmal. We even had an applicant with a master's from Georgia Tech (was born and raised in Boise and wanted to return closer to home), and he too was shockingly lacking in knowledge. To some extent, I think many universities are more interested in enrollment and graduating people than actually educating them.

I have a story about athletics and eligibility crap I could tell you, but I'll save that for another thread/time.
 
1. I’m not an academician, but I do think WSU is a damn good school. It wouldn’t be in a conference with Stanford, Cal, UCLA and USC if that wasn’t the case. Remember, it was the presidents of those elite universities that due to academic concerns rejected any overtures to Texas Tech, Oklahoma State, BYU and the like when the Pac-10 expanded a few years ago.

2. Don’t believe for a second that WSU and not Gonzaga is the most popular college destination of the elite high school students in the Spokane area. Would like to read anecdotal evidence from some of the Spokaneites on this board because I believe it would say the same.

4. 425, you and Coug Ed are both top-notch posters who make great contributions to the board. Selfishly, wish you posted here more often because you come up with a lot of interesting topics at Brand X. The only downside to Ed as I see it is his tendency to downplay Coach Mike Leach’s success. I don’t get that reasoning.
 
Perhaps now. But not 20 years ago. It was obvious which graduates had a strong grounding in theory, and those who were taught equations. They had no way to construct solutions to problems they hadn't already seen. WSU, UW, BYU, and OSU graduates had that strong background. UofI, BSU, and surprisingly, Oregon State, failed miserably. (My field is electrical engineering).

But now, all the graduates are uniformly abysmal. We even had an applicant with a master's from Georgia Tech (was born and raised in Boise and wanted to return closer to home), and he too was shockingly lacking in knowledge. To some extent, I think many universities are more interested in enrollment and graduating people than actually educating them.

I have a story about athletics and eligibility crap I could tell you, but I'll save that for another thread/time.

HERESY! Universities are paragons of education and altruism!
 
Perhaps now. But not 20 years ago. It was obvious which graduates had a strong grounding in theory, and those who were taught equations. They had no way to construct solutions to problems they hadn't already seen. WSU, UW, BYU, and OSU graduates had that strong background. UofI, BSU, and surprisingly, Oregon State, failed miserably. (My field is electrical engineering).

But now, all the graduates are uniformly abysmal. We even had an applicant with a master's from Georgia Tech (was born and raised in Boise and wanted to return closer to home), and he too was shockingly lacking in knowledge. To some extent, I think many universities are more interested in enrollment and graduating people than actually educating them.

I have a story about athletics and eligibility crap I could tell you, but I'll save that for another thread/time.
My field was engineering and my experience has been that many graduates in the last 20 years or so are limited in their problem solving ability. As you say they can plug numbers in equations and do the math but don’t typically understand why the equations work. I think that’s at least in part due to the reliance on sophisticated computer programs these days. It was a different world when we only had slide rules.

But that being said, I never noticed a difference in problem solving ability based on what school someone went to. There were good ones and bad ones from everywhere.
 
When I graduated from WSU, one of the required 400 level business classes required us to take an exit exam. It was essentially a test to determine the effectiveness of our education. Wasn’t graded but they required us to take it. Not sure which colleges didn’t participate but most public schools did including UW. They provided the results to the class and WSU was like 78th percentile. UW students tested in like the 60th percentile. Granted it was one year, but I think college rankings are mostly BS. UW supposedly has some prestigious business school (yeah graduate but that should trickle down) and they got smoked by lil ol WSU students/UW rejects. It’s all BS if you ask me.
 
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My field was engineering and my experience has been that many graduates in the last 20 years or so are limited in their problem solving ability. As you say they can plug numbers in equations and do the math but don’t typically understand why the equations work. I think that’s at least in part due to the reliance on sophisticated computer programs these days. It was a different world when we only had slide rules.
I'm not so old to have used a slide rule, and we did have programmable calculators, SPICE, Matlab, etc. The available tools now aren't that much different, only their speed and capacity have increased. We still work with SPICE and Matlab, and of course still use our programmable calculators. I really do think the schools think it sufficient to expose students to the background, with only a rudimentary introduction, then moving on to the "interesting stuff."

I remember filling up sheets and sheets doing Fourier expansions, solving boundary differential equations for electric fields, solving wave-guide problems using a Smith chart, and solving huge sets of linear equations for transistor small signal models of op-amps. And that was in undergraduate. We can't even get graduate students even write the basic differential equation for a RLC circuit, draw the small signal model of a BJT or CMOS transistor, or even describe what the "time constant" of a filter is. But give them the standard parallel or series RLC, and they can regurgitate the equation, can tell you the voltage drop across a PN junction, and maybe even tell you what the characteristic equations of the large signal model of a transistor. But apply any of that information? Nope. And none of that needs computer aided solvers.

But that being said, I never noticed a difference in problem solving ability based on what school someone went to. There were good ones and bad ones from everywhere.
This is different from basic theoretical knowledge. Those basic questions were to see what they learned. In interviews, if they didn't know what the small signal model of a CMOS transistor was, we walked them through it, then we can throw them the real problems. From there, we could identify problem solving skills. I think of it rather like trying to hire an accountant (and I'm not one!, so I'm sure I'll butcher this) who has heard of the different types of basis, and maybe could tell you what they are called, but couldn't work through an example problem.

We had a lot of OSU grads apply since our president/founder went there and he was friends with the dean at the time. And being in Idaho, we had WSU, UofI, BSU, and a smattering of UW applicants. Most were people trying to return near to home. And the difference was obvious, at least in terms of basic knowledge.

I'll give one story that I think shined well on WSU when I was an undergraduate. I was taking EE476, the Analog Integrated Circuits class (i.e. designing self-contained analog computer chips, such as op-amps, comparators, etc). It was hands down the hardest course I've ever taken in my career, including graduate school. It was taught by a tough, demanding, and thoroughly unlikeable lady named Dr Terri Fiez (now at Colorado, but she left for OSU when I was in graduate school, and there appears to have been some drama there, which no doubt was attributed to her personality). I knew both bipolar and CMOS transistors backward and forward before even making it halfway through the class. I think I managed to eke an A- out of the class, but it was damn hard work.

That November (I think the fall of '95), I was flown down to Santa Clara to interview for a 6-moth co-op job at Intel. I was given the typical gauntlet of questions related to transistors (I'd be working at that level), and they were absolutely flabbergasted I could answer all their questions. I knew how to calculate the output impedance of just about any circuit they threw at me, I knew how to calculate rise and fall times of outputs, I knew how to determine current flow and drive capability. They then moved to to much harder stuff I've never heard of, but I could work through some of it. After the interview, as I went out for coffee with the hiring manager just before heading back to the airport, he asked me how I knew so much for being an undergraduate. I gave kudos to EE476 and WSU, saying it was that class alone--an analog class no less--that prepared me so well. He was very impressed.

When I wrapped up my co-op, he told me to send as many of my friends that took that class to him, and he'd every every single one of them. He was extremely impressed with WSU, and with what I had done during the co-op, and I have WSU (and Dr Fiez) to thank for that.
 
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Since a lot of this thread has moved toward engineering & WSU, I'll throw in a few thoughts.

I graduated in '80 and went to work for the world's largest air conditioning manufacturer. Twice per year there was a 3 month post-grad class at company HQ for the new hires, 2/3 of whom would be in field positions (sales or service). Probably 20% were from overseas, with our International group. Probably 20% of the class were customers. Roughly 40-45 people per class. I was there with kids from Michigan, Purdue, UNC, NYU, Cal Poly SLO (the historic west coast AC engineering program), Texas Tech and a smattering of others. There was a West Point kid who had separated from the army after his obligation was completed. We had 4 Canadians, an Israeli, a Kuwaiti, two Poles and a hodgepodge of other backgrounds. This is fresh in my mind because I ran onto my grad picture from that class last night while cleaning up a corner of my office at home.

Other than when hung over (there was an informal competition between the Canadians and the Poles; I don't think there was ever a definitive winner, but they both could bury the rest of us), the ability to learn was pretty much equivalent across the board. We were all motivated to learn. We went through what the AC engineers (a subset of ME) from SLO had taken in the course of 9-10 college classes in 11 solid weeks, 8 hours/day. There was no discernable difference based on where one attended school. There WAS a difference based upon individual personality, as there always will be.

We were the next-to-last year to learn all the calculations by hand. Sure, we used hand calculators, but we still matched up various equipment combinations using tally sheets and graph paper. The last of the "pre-computer" folks. We all loved the computer when it came along; a year later we all had Radio Shack Trash 80 model III's and were helping the old people learn to use them. Much like today! It is interesting that in the 40 years since, when we get together to drink and tell war stories there is one almost universal point of agreement. Learning to do stuff by hand often involved graphing something. Understanding what the graph revealed and using it to project beyond the bounds of narrow data points imparted a lot of comprehension regarding how various pieces of equipment and processes worked together. People who have learned to match up stuff using a computer, without ever having used graphics, and with limited ability to think in the analog world, are not well prepared for the job. I did not appreciate while at WSU how important graphical solutions were to understanding what ever process I was grappling with...that was just how it was done. Now that it isn't often done that way any more, I can see where we've lost something. I was doing an in-house class at work recently and started with a graphical representation of what was happening, and it was like a light switch had been flipped for many of the people in the class.

FWIW, my working theory is that since the analog world (and we do live in an analog world, far more than a digital world) is so poorly taught today, a lot of kids getting degrees are handicapped when it comes to understanding how stuff actually works. I'm not sure that WSU is much different than any major research school in that regard. My son got an ME degree from UCSD two years ago, and he certainly lacks graphical visualization background. The engineering kids we hire today are all pretty similar in that regard. Ironically, it is the computer science kids who seem to be able to graphically visualize stuff. There must be a lesson there somewhere...
 
Perhaps now. But not 20 years ago. It was obvious which graduates had a strong grounding in theory, and those who were taught equations. They had no way to construct solutions to problems they hadn't already seen. WSU, UW, BYU, and OSU graduates had that strong background. UofI, BSU, and surprisingly, Oregon State, failed miserably. (My field is electrical engineering).

But now, all the graduates are uniformly abysmal. We even had an applicant with a master's from Georgia Tech (was born and raised in Boise and wanted to return closer to home), and he too was shockingly lacking in knowledge. To some extent, I think many universities are more interested in enrollment and graduating people than actually educating them.

I have a story about athletics and eligibility crap I could tell you, but I'll save that for another thread/time.
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Suudy-you are clearly a very intelligent dude. I don't understand all your EE examples, but I appreciate them. I am a Construction Mgmt grad (actually called Building Theory and Practice back in 1974) from Wazzu, and their program was one of the first in that field and remains one of the top programs today. Their teams consistently place at or near the top in collegiate competitions. I had a 35 year career in Facilities at Boeing, and had the opportunity to work with many engineers during that time. The best engineer (Electrical, and a PE) I ever encountered was a WSU grad, just a few years younger than me. I would put the WSU engineers up against any other schools.

Story about a clueless engineer from the uw. I submitted a Technical Scope of Work for the installation of a large 500 ton hydraulic press. It needed power, air, and a foundation. So the uw engineer comes over to me asks me if it REALLY weighs 500 tons! Holy crap! So I gently explained to him that it did not weigh 500 tons, but that was the amount of pressure the machine was capable of exerting. Of course, had he read the cut sheets first he would have already realized that.

Now for some thoughts on the college rankings. I think they are based on a lot of things other than the real quality of education that an undergraduate receives. For instance, the uw gets big credit because they have a law school and a medical school. That's all fine and good, but it matters little to the quality of education that an undergraduate receives. Having a vet program is seen as much less value than law and medical schools.

I believe another factor in the rankings is how much money the school pulls in for research. Thus, the uw gets pushed up ahead of a school like WSU because they are twice the size, with many more professors, thus are able to pull in a lot more research money. But how much does this affect the undergrad education? Not all that much in my view. Also, from what I saw several years ago, the student/faculty ratio was much better at WSU, plus a lot more of the basic classes were taught by professors at WSU than at the uw, where a large lecture hall is more likely to be taught by a TA. So how much benefit is an undergrad getting from a professor that spends all his/her time doing research and chasing grant money instead of imparting their wisdom to the students?

Here is a bit of an analogy. Anybody seen those ranking of health systems throughout the world? IIRC, one of them had the US health system ranked as somewhere in the 30's worldwide. Are you kidding me? That is just ridiculous to think the US should be ranked that low. Turns out that the key point they used for the rankings is whether or not your system was completely socialistic, which the US is not. Not yet, anyway. And that was the key determinate for the ranking, not doctor/patient ratio, not cure rates for diseases, not quicker times to get access to specialists, etc, etc.

So basically, you can find an interesting basis for discussion with these kinds of rankings, but you must understand the rationale behind them and don't put too much faith in them being infallible/totally accurate.
 
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WSU is #1. I've been saying it for years. #1. There is WSU and then there is everyone else. They suck.
 
A lot of brainpower at this site (certainly excluding a non-college graduate like myself).

Maybe that’s one of reasons CougZone has surpassed Brand X and effectively buried Brand Y (not sure about the Cougar Sports Facebook page, though).
 
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I believe another factor in the rankings is how much money the school pulls in for research. Thus, the uw gets pushed up ahead of a school like WSU because they are twice the size, with many more professors, thus are able to pull in a lot more research money. But how much does this affect the undergrad education? Not all that much in my view. Also, from what I saw several years ago, the student/faculty ratio was much better at WSU, plus a lot more of the basic classes were taught by professors at WSU than at the uw, where a large lecture hall is more likely to be taught by a TA. So how much benefit is an undergrad getting from a professor that spends all his/her time doing research and chasing grant money instead of imparting their wisdom to the students?
It's an interesting point. From the standpoint of ranking graduate schools, certainly research dollars is a factor. After all, paying for research assistants to do real research is a spectacular way to advance. Having a few publications under your belt when you graduate is a huge resumé builder. And if you want to go on and do actual research (perhaps pursue a PhD), then actual research projects are important.

But it's a double-edge sword. As you note, if you get a ton of research dollars, there's no way those principal investigators are going to waste research dollars teaching a class. That was the exact case of the aforementioned Dr Fiez. She clearly did not want to teach. So who gets the work? The TA! Now, this his totally hit or miss. Some TAs (such as who taught my undergraduate statistics and differential equations), were very good. The differential equations guy was great. He definitely knew his stuff, and was very willing to help. And on the other end, I had a gal from China teaching my chemistry lab (which was 5 days a week, on top of lecture--which was worthless when you are in a room with 200+ people), who had such poor English, we could barely understand her. And she didn't want to be there, and we all passed lab basically for just showing up. Bit me hard when I got to my material science class and I was clueless on how crystals are formed and their properties (which is key to semiconductor physics).

But if I were to generalize, I'd say departments (not universities per se) that have large research budgets, will skimp on undergraduate education, but have strong graduate programs. And vice versa, where small research budgets have better undergraduate, but worse graduate programs. Of course this is a generalization and isn't always true. But the folk I've talked to, this is the case.

One other note. Even graduate schools are becoming diploma mills. The young engineers I mentor that want to pursue a master's degree, I push them to do the thesis option. First, it is a clear separator from the "project" options, especially at a younger age. Second, you learn *a lot more* working on a real thesis, than just doing a project. And finally, the first question usually asked when you hire a youngish person with a master's degree: "What was your thesis about?" But sooooo many of them do these online master's degree at Ohio River Valley Polytechnic and Mining (or some other strange name), and all they do is pass classes and do a small project. Some don't even require projects.

I had one engineer who transferred to my team finish his last semester, and ask me "Do I get a raise now?" I held in my laughter and told him, "No." He asked, "Then why did I bother to get my master's degree?" I shrugged and asked him, "Why did you?" He didn't reply, but it was clear he thought it would give him a leg up, either a raise or a promotion. In a one-on-one discussion later, I asked him what particular emphasis he had during his graduate studies. He said "Nothing. Just general electrical engineering." I then asked him what he learned that he could apply at work. He had no answer, and I told him that's why his master's degree didn't warrant a raise.

But so many think, for whatever reason, that they need that master's degree to get ahead. At least for people in my field, generally a master's degree is only worth about 2 years of work experience, unless your did a thesis in something directly related to the company's needs. And that is almost never the case.

So basically, you can find an interesting basis for discussion with these kinds of rankings, but you must understand the rationale behind them and don't put too much faith in them being infallible/totally accurate.
Exactly. I wonder. Do they post their criteria? Or is it a trade-secret? If the latter, then it is worth about as much as the reputation of the author of the study.
 
Other than when hung over (there was an informal competition between the Canadians and the Poles; I don't think there was ever a definitive winner, but they both could bury the rest of us), the ability to learn was pretty much equivalent across the board. We were all motivated to learn. We went through what the AC engineers (a subset of ME) from SLO had taken in the course of 9-10 college classes in 11 solid weeks, 8 hours/day. There was no discernable difference based on where one attended school. There WAS a difference based upon individual personality, as there always will be.
This is the key, isn't it? How do you evaluate people to find those that have that motivation to learn and to work hard, despite any deficiencies in their education? This is what we try to do in our interviews. But if candidates don't even understand the basics, think of the effort required to get them to understand the real problems we are trying to solve. There has been talk of doing "apprentice" style programs, where folk without engineers, but with that strong work ethic and eagerness to learn can move into engineering roles. But ultimately I think it ends up hurting them. As I noted earlier, it is impossible to even get an interview at any company unless you have that degree. And no amount of apprenticeship will be recognized as equivalent experience. It's great for the company--we basically get engineers that can't go anywhere--but I think bad for the individuals.

Now, I want to clarify. In my post I wasn't talking about intelligence, ability, or willingness to work hard. It purely was about no being prepared. It put those candidates at a distinct disadvantage compared to other candidates. And they have their crappy degree programs to blame.
 
It's an interesting point. From the standpoint of ranking graduate schools, certainly research dollars is a factor. After all, paying for research assistants to do real research is a spectacular way to advance. Having a few publications under your belt when you graduate is a huge resumé builder. And if you want to go on and do actual research (perhaps pursue a PhD), then actual research projects are important.

But it's a double-edge sword. As you note, if you get a ton of research dollars, there's no way those principal investigators are going to waste research dollars teaching a class. That was the exact case of the aforementioned Dr Fiez. She clearly did not want to teach. So who gets the work? The TA! Now, this his totally hit or miss. Some TAs (such as who taught my undergraduate statistics and differential equations), were very good. The differential equations guy was great. He definitely knew his stuff, and was very willing to help. And on the other end, I had a gal from China teaching my chemistry lab (which was 5 days a week, on top of lecture--which was worthless when you are in a room with 200+ people), who had such poor English, we could barely understand her. And she didn't want to be there, and we all passed lab basically for just showing up. Bit me hard when I got to my material science class and I was clueless on how crystals are formed and their properties (which is key to semiconductor physics).

But if I were to generalize, I'd say departments (not universities per se) that have large research budgets, will skimp on undergraduate education, but have strong graduate programs. And vice versa, where small research budgets have better undergraduate, but worse graduate programs. Of course this is a generalization and isn't always true. But the folk I've talked to, this is the case.

One other note. Even graduate schools are becoming diploma mills. The young engineers I mentor that want to pursue a master's degree, I push them to do the thesis option. First, it is a clear separator from the "project" options, especially at a younger age. Second, you learn *a lot more* working on a real thesis, than just doing a project. And finally, the first question usually asked when you hire a youngish person with a master's degree: "What was your thesis about?" But sooooo many of them do these online master's degree at Ohio River Valley Polytechnic and Mining (or some other strange name), and all they do is pass classes and do a small project. Some don't even require projects.

I had one engineer who transferred to my team finish his last semester, and ask me "Do I get a raise now?" I held in my laughter and told him, "No." He asked, "Then why did I bother to get my master's degree?" I shrugged and asked him, "Why did you?" He didn't reply, but it was clear he thought it would give him a leg up, either a raise or a promotion. In a one-on-one discussion later, I asked him what particular emphasis he had during his graduate studies. He said "Nothing. Just general electrical engineering." I then asked him what he learned that he could apply at work. He had no answer, and I told him that's why his master's degree didn't warrant a raise.

But so many think, for whatever reason, that they need that master's degree to get ahead. At least for people in my field, generally a master's degree is only worth about 2 years of work experience, unless your did a thesis in something directly related to the company's needs. And that is almost never the case.


Exactly. I wonder. Do they post their criteria? Or is it a trade-secret? If the latter, then it is worth about as much as the reputation of the author of the study.
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I like your story about the guy that expected a raise when he finished his degree. When did that happen? Recently or long ago?

When I graduated in 1974 I was admitted to the Business school at WSU, and also got a "Research Assistant" position there. But after one year I did not go back, went out into the dog eat dog real world. Several years later I finished my MBA doing night and weekend classes at City University. I actually felt that the classes at City U were more valuable, more useful than the ones I took at WSU. And I never expected a raise because I had that advanced degree, and never got one because of that either. I did it for the personal satisfaction and the hope that it may make a difference in the future for some position I wanted. Maybe a tie breaker, if you will. Timing was everything, though, as a few years after I got my MBA the company started giving bonuses to those that completed a degree. Oh, well-never whined about that. Just the way it goes.
 
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I like your story about the guy that expected a raise when he finished his degree. When did that happen? Recently or long ago?
Just about six months ago. And it was one of those degree mill type schools where you take a bunch of classes and do a small project. And Boom! You have a master's degree. Mine required a lengthy thesis and defense. And I've pretty much never used anything in it since.

When I graduated in 1974 I was admitted to the Business school at WSU, and also got a "Research Assistant" position there. But after one year I did not go back, went out into the dog eat dog real world. Several years later I finished my MBA doing night and weekend classes at City University. I actually felt that the classes at City U were more valuable, more useful than the ones I took at WSU. And I never expected a raise because I had that advanced degree, and never got one because of that either. I did it for the personal satisfaction and the hope that it may make a difference in the future for some position I wanted. Maybe a tie breaker, if you will. Timing was everything, though, as a few years after I got my MBA the company started giving bonuses to those that completed a degree. Oh, well-never whined about that. Just the way it goes.
No company I have worked for has provided any benefit to getting a degree other than opening doors to new positions. There's no inherent raise, no bonus, no promotion, nothing. It is, as you say, for the "personal satisfaction." Our company will reimburse people for degree seeking programs relevant to the the company's mission and your position (hence, no degrees in Underwater Basket Weaving). But there is no requirement that the course of study be directly applicable. For example, I do know of one person in our literature department (manual writing) that got a degree in French. Helped her write, proofread, and correspond with French speaking customers (especially the Kay-be-quois ;), apparently I've been pronouncing it wrong all these years). There's even a guy who got his PhD in chemistry.
 
Consistent with some of the stories here, I believe a given student frequently can get better--or, at least, more useful--instruction at "lower prestige" schools.

The profs at schools with less prestige tend to be more practical and focused on preparing people for the real world, as opposed to preparing people for entering academia. They also tend to be better teachers, it seems, since many of them are more focused on teaching and less on the academic side. At places like City University, the profs/instructors probably have real-world experience in the subject matter. I'm not shocked that the classes taught there seem better than those at a major research university, making reasonable assumptions about the criteria used for that judgment. Hell, I'd even expect it.

What "prestige" really does is select the cohort of students, not serve as an indicator of the quality of instruction. In terms of sheer brainpower and education levels, the students at the more prestigious schools tend to be better and more accomplished, honestly. If you take a given student and allow her to go to WSU (particularly in the Honors College) and avail herself of the opportunities at WSU, though, as opposed to going to a place like Virginia or Michigan, I wouldn't expect any material difference in the quality of education received or what that student is able to achieve.

Some professions are obsessed with prestige, though, and would give more than a thumb on the scale to that same person if performing similarly at Michigan vs. WSU. I don't want to get too far into it, but let's just say there indeed are people who would look at a candidate differently even 10, 15, or more years out of college if that student went to Oregon State vs. Michigan, Berkeley, or UVA. I see that in our own recruitment efforts at my firm ... most people here are from the Ivy League, Stanford, very well-regarded public schools like Berkeley, Michigan, etc. Also, prestige definitely matters for competitive grad school admissions. That said, in some fields, it's pretty much irrelevant very shortly after graduation and more about what one achieves on the job, the experience gained, who he or she has learned from, etc.
 
In terms of "tiers", I agree that there are some broad ranges where there isn't much difference between schools and it comes down to preference. Anecdotally, we had a new professor come to WSU from Purdue when I was a student. He was horrified at how laid back and "lazy" we were compared to the students he taught at Purdue. On the other hand, WSU has always been superior to a lot of midwest universities in making sure that students have a well rounded educational experience, Big 12 schools generally don't require any special writing component for graduation but we had to put together a writing portfolio at Wazzu back in the day and when we visited there in January, they said that was still a requirement.
 
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