Do recruiting rankings matter?

[PeteTheChop]

A lot?

Somewhat?

Very little or nothing at all?

Brand X took a look back at WSU's celebrated 2004 class under Coach Bill Doba that was ranked 25th nationally by Rivals and 21st by Scout, making for arguably the most highly-touted Cougar recruiting haul in school history.

Unfortunately, almost half the class — 12 high school signees — made limited or zero contributions due to a combination of academics, injuries, bad luck, etc.

According to Brand X, the 2005, '06 and '07 classes under CBD were also "equal messes" (which may be that site's method for explaining the ups and downs that would follow under Coach Paul Wulff).

Truth is, there were some big-name prospects in that '04 signing class.

It's hard not to wonder what would've happened had those kids had an opportunity to reach their potential in Pullman.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

Matter to whom? For what purpose?

CML recruiting rankings at TT, 2000-2009:
Natl rank Conf Rank W/L
44 7 7-6
51 6 7-5
34 7 9-5
71 12 8-5
39 8 8-4
38 6 9-3
28 5 8-5
42 8 9-4
75 12 11-2
39 7 9-4

Outside of one class, they were all middling at best and mostly in the bottom half of the B12.

Recruit kids with potential and coach them up. Yes, rankings matter to confirm that you managed to fill your roster with all 5* kids if thats what you do, but other than that its about what the coaches can do with them once their on campus.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

Another thing: I'd be curious to see how the numbers have trended over the past 20 years as to how many 4 and 5 star recruits there are in each recruiting class. My hunch is that we've seen a massive improvement in the quality of football players coming out of high school, thus requiring more of them getting higher rankings.... yeah, thats the reason.

 

[fingerdisco]

A lot?

Somewhat?

Very little or nothing at all?

Brand X took a look back at WSU's celebrated 2004 class under Coach Bill Doba that was ranked 25th nationally by Rivals and 21st by Scout, making for arguably the most highly-touted Cougar recruiting haul in school history.

Unfortunately, almost half the class — 12 high school signees — made limited or zero contributions due to a combination of academics, injuries, bad luck, etc.

According to Brand X, the 2005, '06 and '07 classes under CBD were also "equal messes" (which may be that site's method for explaining the ups and downs that would follow under Coach Paul Wulff).

Truth is, there were some big-name prospects in that '04 signing class.

It's hard not to wonder what would've happened had those kids had an opportunity to reach their potential in Pullman.

Over the long term, its pretty hard to argue that the teams with the highest consistent recruiting rankings tend to always be the best teams--the Alabama's, FSU's, Ohio State's with their consistent 4- and 5-star rosters almost always end up in the top 10-15 in the country. That said, I'd contend that once all the handful of 4/5 star players are divvied up amongst the top 15 or so teams and you start dealing with mostly 3-star players, it becomes more of a crapshoot, which is why you occasionally see teams with overall rankings down in the 40's or even 50's breaking into the top 20 at the end of the season. However, the teams with the lowest ranked recruiting teams generally live up to those expectations. So, I'd finish with saying the rankings are pretty good to predict the really good teams and the really bad teams, and there being much more guessing with that 25-75 team recruit ranking position.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

A lot?

Somewhat?

Very little or nothing at all?

Brand X took a look back at WSU's celebrated 2004 class under Coach Bill Doba that was ranked 25th nationally by Rivals and 21st by Scout, making for arguably the most highly-touted Cougar recruiting haul in school history.

Unfortunately, almost half the class — 12 high school signees — made limited or zero contributions due to a combination of academics, injuries, bad luck, etc.

According to Brand X, the 2005, '06 and '07 classes under CBD were also "equal messes" (which may be that site's method for explaining the ups and downs that would follow under Coach Paul Wulff).

Truth is, there were some big-name prospects in that '04 signing class.

It's hard not to wonder what would've happened had those kids had an opportunity to reach their potential in Pullman.

Recruiting rankings matter, but a great coach can make up some of the talent gap with good schemes and coaching. When Leach understands a run of the mill coach and gets time to game plan them, his teams can be successful. The problem for a team like WSU is when they go up against another well-coached team that has a talent advantage. UW wrecks us every year because Peterson is every bit as good as Leach and has better talent. We struggled in the Holiday Bowl two years in a row because we were facing fundamentally sound, well coached teams. Minnesota was close enough to us in talent that we could have easily won that game without some bad breaks, but Michigan State steamrolled us. Shaw is an excellent coach at Stanford, but his tendency to be ultra-conservative leaves him in a position where WSU is always giving Stanford fits.

The reality is that the rankings between #30 and #60 are pretty subjective and good coaching is more important than the ranking. The rankings aren't wrong, but the gap between teams closes to the point where it really is about the coach, and that's where Leach shines.

 

[CougPatrol]

They matter a lot. Especially at the 4 & 5 star level.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

As Flat suggested, between #30 and #60 there is a pile of subjective stuff. Top 20-30 classes will generally have more raw talent than a #65 class, but it is the nature of the beast that if 1/3 of every class works out very well you will have a good team; possibly top 25. If half of every class works out you will be a top 10-15 team.

All that said, UCLA has never had a poorly ranked class two years in a row over the last 30 years, and what did that mean for them on the field? Mighty Texas filled its class by the end of September every year and went through several years of underperformance.

As our friend Biggs says, Coaching Matters.

 

[WASH ST A&M FAN]

Found this interesting........

These are the Pac12 Teams that landed in the Top 50 Recruiting Class Composite according to last 6-Years of RECRUITING STAR RANKINGS

#6 USC - Replaced Coach
#14 UCLA - Fired Coach
#20 Oregon - Fired Coach
#24 Stanford - Cougs 2 Game win streak
#29 UW -
#31 ASU - Fired Coach
#35 Arizona - Fired Coach
#41 Cal - Fired Coach
#43 Utah - Cougs 3 Game win streak
#47 Oregon St - Fired Coach

 

[Cougatron]

Brand X loves making excuses for Wulff.

Truth is Wulff never could win as many games as those “bad classes” did with Doba.

Wulff brought in Wulff stink to recruiting it took 4 years to wash it off. The result 9 wins.

The result from Wulff after 4 years. 4 wins... less than anything those “bad classes” achieved.

Recruiting rankings matter coaches matter.

If you have poor recruiting but a good coach you can still win six games (Leach 2013)

If you have a bad coach and bad recruiting you can dance with your 4 win ceiling (Wulff)

If you have good recruits and a bad coach you can still win 10 games (Doba)

If you are full of sh*t and try to get by just by talking you can go 0-10-1 in your last year coaching (Walden)

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

Found this interesting........

These are the Pac12 Teams that landed in the Top 50 Recruiting Class Composite according to last 6-Years of RECRUITING STAR RANKINGS

#6 USC - Replaced Coach
#14 UCLA - Fired Coach
#20 Oregon - Fired Coach
#24 Stanford - Cougs 2 Game win streak
#29 UW -
#31 ASU - Fired Coach
#35 Arizona - Fired Coach
#41 Cal - Fired Coach
#43 Utah - Cougs 3 Game win streak
#47 Oregon St - Fired Coach

I take it that we didn't make the cut into the top 50?

 

[etowncoug]

Recruiting rankings matter a lot until the day the kids step on campus, then they don't mean jack diddly. And its not ALL coaching either, at least in the way you are probably thinking.

Scouting services do a good job on measurables and film breakdown but these obviously don't tell the whole story. They don't measure how a player will do when they move away from home, how quickly they adjust to the speed of the college, how they respond to adversity, motivation, perseverance, etc.

Lots of these traits are formed in players before they ever set foot on campus. Good coaching helps filter the talent pool. Structure (provided by coaching) can instill these traits in willing players, but its hard to know which players respond and who quits.

Luke Falk and Tyler Bruggeman is a classic example of this. I suspect Bruggemans character traits that led him to 5 different college stints were present when he was recruited as a 4 star. Same with Falk. He appeared to have learned his lesson from his transfer in high school. Impossible for a scouting service to figure this stuff out though.

 

[BiggsCoug]

You need to start with the best players you can. Once you've got them on campus the infrastructure of your program takes over.

Your strength, speed, conditioning program has to be tip top.

Your academic program has to be tip top.

You have to keep kids out of drugs and alcohol as much as you can.

You need kids with a positive attitude that will grind out 5 years. Which is really hard to do.

You can have a really strong football program with 3 star athletes. You need to consistently find ways to get kids on the field and feeling involved every year. You need to have your kids physically ready to play from their weight room time. You have to have a solid senior class every year.

Coaching matters. Player leadership matters.

I have written for years that the West Coast is the most poorly evaluated and recruited region in the nation.

 

[CougEd]

Matter to whom? For what purpose?

CML recruiting rankings at TT, 2000-2009:
Natl rank Conf Rank W/L
44 7 7-6
51 6 7-5
34 7 9-5
71 12 8-5
39 8 8-4
38 6 9-3
28 5 8-5
42 8 9-4
75 12 11-2
39 7 9-4

Outside of one class, they were all middling at best and mostly in the bottom half of the B12.

Recruit kids with potential and coach them up. Yes, rankings matter to confirm that you managed to fill your roster with all 5* kids if thats what you do, but other than that its about what the coaches can do with them once their on campus.

Rankings matter when you do well in recruiting, and they don't when you have a down year in recruiting. When the numbers suit your interests, the coach uses them.

I do think coaches have to recruit to a scheme. I think offensively we do that. I think they can take a Wes Welker type and make him into an all conference player.

It helps when you can land a player or two up front that is that real impact player. That player last year was Vita Vea. I couldn't tell you what his star ranking was coming out of high school, but he couldn't be blocked in the Apple Cup. And maybe it he was inconsistent all year because I don't watch all their games, but he seemed to be the real deal.

Hercules was an All American, but he wasn't that dominate player for two games last year, UW and Arizona. Stanford couldn't block him. Neither could USC. But there are teams that caused him a match up problem.

If you are in the top ten, rankings do me you are getting really talented players, but making those players maximize their talent is another story.

Bill Doba's 3rd class was ranked like 22nd in the country. Wulff's class was 90th, and Leach's third class was 61st. Surprisingly out of the three classes Wulff's class had the most success. You just never know with 18-22 year kids.

The last thing is these services don't seem to be overly accurate. D'Anthony Thomas was suppose to be the fastest guy in the Pac 12. They listed his as a 4.5 guy coming out of high school. He posted a 4.68 at the NFL combine. That is a pretty big difference. Or Damante Horton was a 4.55 guy. he was a 4.8 guy. The list goes on and on.

 

[PeteTheChop]

Bill Doba's 3rd class was ranked like 22nd in the country. Wulff's class was 90th, and Leach's third class was 61st. Surprisingly out of the three classes Wulff's class had the most success. You just never know with 18-22 year kids.

Amen.

Someone mentioned this before (and it may well have been Ed or Flatland), but CPW's biggest strengths as a Pac-12 Head Football Coach were as a talent evaluator and developer.

In the end, though, he lacked the necessary CEO skills to make the ship run smoothly, sort of like what led the Broncos to firing Patriots wonderboy Josh McDaniels back in 2010.

Perhaps if his staff had been a little more seasoned and well-rounded Coach Wulff would've been more successful at WSU?

Regardless of what happened, though, Bill Moos hit a Grand Slam the day he reeled in CML.

Pretty much every Coug is thankful for that day.

 

[BiggsCoug]

Someone mentioned this before (and it may well have been Ed or Flatland), but CPW's biggest strengths as a Pac-12 Head Football Coach were as a talent evaluator and developer.

lol

In the end, though, he lacked the necessary CEO skills to make the ship run smoothly, sort of like what led the Broncos to firing Patriots wonderboy Josh McDaniels back in 2010.

lol

Perhaps if his staff had been a little more seasoned and well-rounded Coach Wulff would've been more successful at WSU?

lol

Regardless of what happened, though, Bill Moos hit a Grand Slam the day he reeled in CML.

Pretty much every Coug is thankful for that day.[/QUOTE]

 

[etowncoug]

Amen.

Someone mentioned this before (and it may well have been Ed or Flatland), but CPW's biggest strengths as a Pac-12 Head Football Coach were as a talent evaluator and developer.

In the end, though, he lacked the necessary CEO skills to make the ship run smoothly, sort of like what led the Broncos to firing Patriots wonderboy Josh McDaniels back in 2010.

Perhaps if his staff had been a little more seasoned and well-rounded Coach Wulff would've been more successful at WSU?

Regardless of what happened, though, Bill Moos hit a Grand Slam the day he reeled in CML.

Pretty much every Coug is thankful for that day.

Identifying and developing PAC-12 talent might have been his greatest strength. It explains why he was fired and Leach's teams didn't start winning until they had purged Wulff's guys from the roster.

All the 2010 class outperforming 2004 and 2014 shows is Wulff's best class outperformed Leach and Doba's worst. Wulff consistently brought players who weren't PAC-12 talents to Pullman. Even worse, most of these guys werent seen by other coaches as worthy of Mountain West or even Big Sky offers. You can't do much as a coach when you consistently miss on the players you bring in.

Doba is the guy to me who had the ability to coach, motivate, and recruit but lacked the administrative abilities. It appears he learned to gamble from Price but didnt have the same level of competence.

 

[Observer11]

Identifying and developing PAC-12 talent might have been his greatest strength. It explains why he was fired and Leach's teams didn't start winning until they had purged Wulff's guys from the roster.

All the 2010 class outperforming 2004 and 2014 shows is Wulff's best class outperformed Leach and Doba's worst. Wulff consistently brought players who weren't PAC-12 talents to Pullman. Even worse, most of these guys werent seen by other coaches as worthy of Mountain West or even Big Sky offers. You can't do much as a coach when you consistently miss on the players you bring in.

Doba is the guy to me who had the ability to coach, motivate, and recruit but lacked the administrative abilities. It appears he learned to gamble from Price but didnt have the same level of competence.

Doba's downfall was he was a loyal and true husband. If that is a black mark on his record, so be it.

 

[CougEd]

Identifying and developing PAC-12 talent might have been his greatest strength. It explains why he was fired and Leach's teams didn't start winning until they had purged Wulff's guys from the roster.

All the 2010 class outperforming 2004 and 2014 shows is Wulff's best class outperformed Leach and Doba's worst. Wulff consistently brought players who weren't PAC-12 talents to Pullman. Even worse, most of these guys werent seen by other coaches as worthy of Mountain West or even Big Sky offers. You can't do much as a coach when you consistently miss on the players you bring in.

Doba is the guy to me who had the ability to coach, motivate, and recruit but lacked the administrative abilities. It appears he learned to gamble from Price but didnt have the same level of competence.

E-Town...regarding Doba not sure to agree with you or disagree with you. Maybe his administrative talents or lack thereof prevented him and his staff from evaluating the the talent properly. Or maybe handing those duties off to Robin P were a huge mistake. What I do know is their strategy of going head to head with the big boys and not locking up A- talent was a huge mistake. They would wait for a guy like Chris Barrett TE-selected USC) to make a decision and not lock up a Troy Bieneman type.

Going to the recruiting dinners back then it was clear the talent drain had started. Even a guy like Anton Cason a corner for Arizona had a brother on our campus and we didn't offer him. We offered the likes of Bryan Baird instead. Now to be fair we did get a really good corner from JC in Brackenridge, but how do you not evaluate Cason properly.

Also, the advantage that Doba had over any other coach in our history is he was recruiting off three 10 win seasons, and a Rose Bowl in a rear view mirror but not too distant.

What can be said is it did not add to the staff by having so many Cougs trying to sell Pullman. Matter of fact, it could be argued he had too many coaches who couldn't recruit. Levy? Rosie? Greene? I would even say Broussard fell short. Combine all of this and I am not sure Doba was a very good elevator once he got the head coaching gig.

 

[etowncoug]

E-Town...regarding Doba not sure to agree with you or disagree with you. Maybe his administrative talents or lack thereof prevented him and his staff from evaluating the the talent properly. Or maybe handing those duties off to Robin P were a huge mistake. What I do know is their strategy of going head to head with the big boys and not locking up A- talent was a huge mistake. They would wait for a guy like Chris Barrett TE-selected USC) to make a decision and not lock up a Troy Bieneman type.

Going to the recruiting dinners back then it was clear the talent drain had started. Even a guy like Anton Cason a corner for Arizona had a brother on our campus and we didn't offer him. We offered the likes of Bryan Baird instead. Now to be fair we did get a really good corner from JC in Brackenridge, but how do you not evaluate Cason properly.

Also, the advantage that Doba had over any other coach in our history is he was recruiting off three 10 win seasons, and a rose Bowl in a rear view mirror but not too distant.

What can be said is it did not add to the staff by having so many Cougs trying to sell Pullman. Matter of fact, it could be argued he had too many coaches who couldn't recruit. Levy? Rosie? Greene? I would even say Broussard fell short. Combine all of this and I am not sure Doba was a very good elevator once he got the head coaching gig.

I don't think we are miles apart Ed. I tend to think Doba tried to leverage 3 10 wins seasons into phenomenal talent. Mike Price liked to gamble on talented grade/character risks too, and I suspect he tried to follow in this blue print. It just backfired spectacularly. But you could field quite an impressive team with the players who never qualified/had legal issues. What the staff didnt account for is maybe the reason we were able land these players is because they got scared off by these issues.

Regardless, Im happy with Leach's consistency.

 

[Cougatron]

Rankings matter when you do well in recruiting, and they don't when you have a down year in recruiting. When the numbers suit your interests, the coach uses them.

Bill Doba's 3rd class was ranked like 22nd in the country. Wulff's class was 90th, and Leach's third class was 61st. Surprisingly out of the three classes Wulff's class had the most success. You just never know with 18-22 year kids.
.

Ah back to the lies.... .

Wulff's class did not have the most success.

In fact no class from Wulff ever recorded a winning record.

Leach's 3rd class was part of 3 winning seasons in a row. His 3rd class being 2014.
Which was part of the 2015,2016,and 2017 season.


Doba's 3rd class which would be 2005.

Was part of a 6-6 team in 2006 team.
a 5 win team in 2007.

And then of course the Wulff sh*t show came in and well into the turd toilet it goes.

2-11 - 2008
1-11 - 2009
2-10 - 2010

I shall bring back my excellent chart showing the recruiting dumpster fire that Wulff made

If you will note in the chart there were 3 programs at the bottom of such chart in the final year. 2 of which headed on a downward trend will one was trending up.

Those trending down were Colorado and Oregon State, and the one trending up was WSU.

Now looking at those programs

Over that duration, you will note that in 2012 Colorado posted an anomaly class rank of #36.

Now if rankings can be reflective of success then that 2012 class should mature somewhere around 2015-2016 and have success.

And low and behold. In 2016 Colorado had a 10 win season. Exactly in the maturation of that 2012 class.

2012 - Freshmen / (RS)
2013 - Sophmore (RS Fresh)
2014 - Junior (RS Soph)
2015 - Senior (RS Junior)
2016 - RS Seniors

Let's see what the roster of the 2016 team looked like.

13 - 5th year Seniors on the depth chart including NFL players like Chidobe Awuzie and the starting defensive line as well as outside LBs..

And that helps to explain Colorado's 10 win season anomaly.
Good coaches + Good class at maturity = breakout year.

This is why I was adamant that Leach was going to get us to success in year 4. Because I knew that once the horrible classes Wulff put us in were expelled and we had maturity from Leach's improved recruiting... we would have success. And we did.

I wasn't some sort of "wizard prophecy person" I was just someone who understood the dynamics and relationship between recruiting, coaching and results.

To illustrate this with WSU as you can see from the chart

Doba recruited at 2005 / 2006 at a high level.

Those classes are set for the following maturity.

2005 - Fresh (RS)
2006 - Soph (RS Fresh)
2007 - Junior (RS Soph)
2008 - Senior (RS Junior)
2009 - RS Senior

2008/2009 for the 2005 Class

and

2009/2010 for the 2006 class.

So let's take a look at the 2009 depth chart and see how many RS Seniors are on the team.

You have MAYBE 6 of those people in 2009

And in 2010?

1 5th year and 5 seniors again only 6.

So with that incredibly poor retention from from good classes how did the team do with the younger poorer classes taking the load of the roster spots?

Well you know... 5-32 from 2008-2010


The "Blame Doba" is nothing more than a myth.

Doba had great classes... Wulff just burned through them and opted for his "doing it the right way, magic eye for talent BS"

Combine that with poor coaching and you get one of the WORST 4 year spans in Cougar football history.

So now that WSU was on the bottom with poor classes how could it get back to the top?

By recruiting decently again and trying to make filet mignon out of horse scrotum. Time however would be on Leach's side, as every good class he recruits would eat away at the bad classes that Wulff brought in.

While doing so it was important to pick and choose the best players he could get out of the sh*tshow that was Wulff. So every year Leach recruited good players and some of the crap that Wulff brought to the table was cleared out.

To do this in full cycle it takes 4 years. That way the Wulff stink was purged.

And low and behold in year 4 WSU posts a 9 win season.

 

[CougEd]

I don't think we are miles apart Ed. I tend to think Doba tried to leverage 3 10 wins seasons into phenomenal talent. Mike Price liked to gamble on talented grade/character risks too, and I suspect he tried to follow in this blue print. It just backfired spectacularly. But you could field quite an impressive team with the players who never qualified/had legal issues. What the staff didnt account for is maybe the reason we were able land these players is because they got scared off by these issues.

Regardless, Im happy with Leach's consistency.

True, but Price would lock up those talented players that had a small defect. Jason David-height. Marcus Trufant-RB turned CB. Wil Derting -small school. Gary Holmes too light-235. Deron Pointer-too skinny. Ron Child-too small. But they all could play football. Doba forgot these types of recruits, aka Anton Cason.

I do think Doba shot for the moon and unfortunately came up short. Your statement regarding Wulff is not too far off. I think because he was such a small fish he had to go for Big Sky talent. I remember talking to a client who had been an OC at the highest level you can be in college, and I told him my concern about Wulff when he wsu hired in that he didn't know how to recruit Pac 10 players.

His comment back to me was it was his experience coaches in the lower levels do a much better job at evaluating talent. And i think that may have been the case. Look no further than Joe Dahl in terms of pure evaluation. Idaho, Wyoming , CSU never offered him. Montana and WSU. It would be interesting just to compare 2003 through 2012. Those recruiting years are in the books, careers have played out. Would it surprise you if the Big Sky talent was equal to that of "Pac 10 talent?

As to Leach, loved his first two classes, those are classes we can fully evaluate and he hit two grand slams The third year surprises me a bit. Not sure why it didn't turn out nearly as well.

2015 not sure I have a full grasp on it. There are things I really like, but I do wish they hit on more oline and dline. 2016 I have the same thoughts. 17 and 18 waaay too early to tell. I do like his approach about getting oline bodies to camp. If they wash out it is done early and they move on. I think Flat is right, if they hat hit on more of those lineman scholies could have been used in other places.

Food for thought.

 

[CougEd]

Ah back to the lies.... .

Wulff's class did not have the most success.

In fact no class from Wulff ever recorded a winning record.

Leach's 3rd class was part of 3 winning seasons in a row. His 3rd class being 2014.
Which was part of the 2015,2016,and 2017 season.


Doba's 3rd class which would be 2005.

Was part of a 6-6 team in 2006 team.
a 5 win team in 2007.

And then of course the Wulff sh*t show came in and well into the turd toilet it goes.

2-11 - 2008
1-11 - 2009
2-10 - 2010

I shall bring back my excellent chart showing the recruiting dumpster fire that Wulff made

If you will note in the chart there were 3 programs at the bottom of such chart in the final year. 2 of which headed on a downward trend will one was trending up.

Those trending down were Colorado and Oregon State, and the one trending up was WSU.

Now looking at those programs

Over that duration, you will note that in 2012 Colorado posted an anomaly class rank of #36.

Now if rankings can be reflective of success then that 2012 class should mature somewhere around 2015-2016 and have success.

And low and behold. In 2016 Colorado had a 10 win season. Exactly in the maturation of that 2012 class.

2012 - Freshmen / (RS)
2013 - Sophmore (RS Fresh)
2014 - Junior (RS Soph)
2015 - Senior (RS Junior)
2016 - RS Seniors

Let's see what the roster of the 2016 team looked like.

13 - 5th year Seniors on the depth chart including NFL players like Chidobe Awuzie and the starting defensive line as well as outside LBs..

And that helps to explain Colorado's 10 win season anomaly.
Good coaches + Good class at maturity = breakout year.

This is why I was adamant that Leach was going to get us to success in year 4. Because I knew that once the horrible classes Wulff put us in were expelled and we had maturity from Leach's improved recruiting... we would have success. And we did.

I wasn't some sort of "wizard prophecy person" I was just someone who understood the dynamics and relationship between recruiting, coaching and results.

To illustrate this with WSU as you can see from the chart

Doba recruited at 2005 / 2006 at a high level.

Those classes are set for the following maturity.

2005 - Fresh (RS)
2006 - Soph (RS Fresh)
2007 - Junior (RS Soph)
2008 - Senior (RS Junior)
2009 - RS Senior

2008/2009 for the 2005 Class

and

2009/2010 for the 2006 class.

So let's take a look at the 2009 depth chart and see how many RS Seniors are on the team.

You have MAYBE 6 of those people in 2009

And in 2010?

1 5th year and 5 seniors again only 6.

So with that incredibly poor retention from from good classes how did the team do with the younger poorer classes taking the load of the roster spots?

Well you know... 5-32 from 2008-2010


The "Blame Doba" is nothing more than a myth.

Doba had great classes... Wulff just burned through them and opted for his "doing it the right way, magic eye for talent BS"

Combine that with poor coaching and you get one of the WORST 4 year spans in Cougar football history.

So now that WSU was on the bottom with poor classes how could it get back to the top?

By recruiting decently again and trying to make filet mignon out of horse scrotum. Time however would be on Leach's side, as every good class he recruits would eat away at the bad classes that Wulff brought in.

While doing so it was important to pick and choose the best players he could get out of the sh*tshow that was Wulff. So every year Leach recruited good players and some of the crap that Wulff brought to the table was cleared out.

To do this in full cycle it takes 4 years. That way the Wulff stink was purged.

And low and behold in year 4 WSU posts a 9 win season.

Tron, my bad... the 3rd year had more individual success. They had better players comparative for that one year. Did they have the team success. Nope. They sure didn't. Sorry I pulled a Trump and didn't make it clear in my writing. It would have saved you the graph and all the other com parables. You could have two players in one class that are carried by previous classes and that does make that one class a good class or one that was successful.

Are you saying I am lying that 2010 had better players and more of them than in 2014?

 

[Cougatron]

Tron, my bad... the 3rd year had more individual success. They had better players comparative for that one year. Did they have the team success. Nope. They sure didn't. Sorry I pulled a Trump and didn't make it clear in my writing. It would have saved you the graph and all the other com parables. You could have two players in one class that are carried by previous classes and that does make that one class a good class or one that was successful.

Are you saying I am lying that 2010 had better players and more of them than in 2014?

2010 class Ed would have had the following years to contribute with the records beside them.

2010 (Fresh / RS) - 2-10
2011 (Soph / RS Fresh) - 4-8
2012 (Junior / RS Soph) - 3-9
2013 (Senior / RS Junior) -6-7
2014 (RS Senior) 3-9

And here is the 2014 class and the years for it to contribute.

2014 (Fresh / RS) - 3-9
2015 (Soph/ RS Fresh) 9-4
2016 (Junior/RS Soph) 8-5
2017 (Senior/RS Junior) 9-4
2018 RS Senior - TBD

So it should be pretty clear Ed that you are either lying or ignorant and stupid (fairly common for yourself)

When 1 class is never part of a single ending season winning record

and the other class is a part of 3.

It basically is right there for you to look at.

 

[CougEd]

2010 class Ed would have had the following years to contribute with the records beside them.

2010 (Fresh / RS) - 2-10
2011 (Soph / RS Fresh) - 4-8
2012 (Junior / RS Soph) - 3-9
2013 (Senior / RS Junior) -6-7
2014 (RS Senior) 3-9

And here is the 2014 class and the years for it to contribute.

2014 (Fresh / RS) - 3-9
2015 (Soph/ RS Fresh) 9-4
2016 (Junior/RS Soph) 8-5
2017 (Senior/RS Junior) 9-4
2018 RS Senior - TBD

So it should be pretty clear Ed that you are either lying or ignorant and stupid (fairly common for yourself)

When 1 class is never part of a single ending season winning record

and the other class is a part of 3.

It basically is right there for you to look at.

Ummm...so what you are telling me, Leach could have one player, say Tyler Comfort and because 2012 and 2013 classes were so string that made 14 a good class, even though a walkon by the name of comfort was their only good player in my hypothetical? Are you saying the 2014 class had more talent in it that 201o and that it was a better class than one that has Deone Buchanon and M Wilson, both NFL players?

This is a thread about recruiting rankings, and thus talent evaluation and selling and signing skills, correct?

1994 brought us Ryan Leaf, who brought us the Rose Bowl. In no way was that class was considered good despite having good rankings. And that came from Mike Price and the staff.

 

[CougEd]

2010 class Ed would have had the following years to contribute with the records beside them.

2010 (Fresh / RS) - 2-10
2011 (Soph / RS Fresh) - 4-8
2012 (Junior / RS Soph) - 3-9
2013 (Senior / RS Junior) -6-7
2014 (RS Senior) 3-9

And here is the 2014 class and the years for it to contribute.

2014 (Fresh / RS) - 3-9
2015 (Soph/ RS Fresh) 9-4
2016 (Junior/RS Soph) 8-5
2017 (Senior/RS Junior) 9-4
2018 RS Senior - TBD

So it should be pretty clear Ed that you are either lying or ignorant and stupid (fairly common for yourself)

When 1 class is never part of a single ending season winning record

and the other class is a part of 3.

It basically is right there for you to look at.

Good grief....who were the players out of a class of 18 that contributed to that success? Just maybe 12/13 were such strong classes that carried them....

 

[Cougatron]

Ummm...so what you are telling me, Leach could have one player, say Tyler Comfort and because 2012 and 2013 classes were so string that made 14 a good class, even though a walkon by the name of comfort was their only good player in my hypothetical? Are you saying the 2014 class had more talent in it that 201o and that it was a better class than one that has Deone Buchanon and M Wilson, both NFL players?

This is a thread about recruiting rankings, and thus talent evaluation and selling and signing skills, correct?

1994 brought us Ryan Leaf, who brought us the Rose Bowl. In no way was that class was considered good despite having good rankings. And that came from Mike Price and the staff.

Marques Wilson quit on the team and hasn't done anything in the NFL.
Deone Buchanon was developed by the S&C program under Leach and coached by Breske who not only was his coach when he was drafted in the 1st round, but also had other DBs drafted in the NFL.

The 2014 class has produced plenty of talented players that actually contributed to the success of WSU where as the 2010 class did not. That's a fact Ed. The results are the results.

As to Ryan Leaf.

Little is mentioned, but the University of Miami wanted Leaf to play linebacker.

In fact it was Dennis Ericson who wanted to bring him down there so Leaf was no "unknown" he was sought after recruit by Ericson who Price caught wind of and convinced him to stick with QB and play for WSU.

Because of what Price did with Bledsoe Leaf was on board. To think Price wasn't bringing in players is quite a myth. Bledsoe was drafted round 1 #1 by the Patriots and that sold a lot of people to come to WSU in 1994 as Bledsoe was drafted in 1993.

So what you say with Leaf and the miraculous rise of WSU in 1997 was an absolute by product of Bledsoe being drafted and Price being able to reel in quality prospects (Like Leaf) that set the stage... for the Rose Bowl.

 

[CougEd]

Marques Wilson quit on the team and hasn't done anything in the NFL.
Deone Buchanon was developed by the S&C program under Leach and coached by Breske who not only was his coach when he was drafted in the 1st round, but also had other DBs drafted in the NFL.

The 2014 class has produced plenty of talented players that actually contributed to the success of WSU where as the 2010 class did not. That's a fact Ed. The results are the results.

As to Ryan Leaf.

Little is mentioned, but the University of Miami wanted Leaf to play linebacker.

In fact it was Dennis Ericson who wanted to bring him down there so Leaf was no "unknown" he was sought after recruit by Ericson who Price caught wind of and convinced him to stick with QB and play for WSU.

Because of what Price did with Bledsoe Leaf was on board. To think Price wasn't bringing in players is quite a myth. Bledsoe was drafted round 1 #1 by the Patriots and that sold a lot of people to come to WSU in 1994 as Bledsoe was drafted in 1993.

So what you say with Leaf and the miraculous rise of WSU in 1997 was an absolute by product of Bledsoe being drafted and Price being able to reel in quality prospects (Like Leaf) that set the stage... for the Rose Bowl.

Yes, Erickson was an idiot, what is your point. Who said Leaf was not known? One player while important to success. Would you care to tell me what players from the 1994 class were around in 1998 when we were 0 for in the Pac10. On paper that was WSU's best class ever, and it ended up being a dud. Injuries, transfers, malcontents, lack of drive and in some case lack of talent.

 

[CougEd]

Marques Wilson quit on the team and hasn't done anything in the NFL.
Deone Buchanon was developed by the S&C program under Leach and coached by Breske who not only was his coach when he was drafted in the 1st round, but also had other DBs drafted in the NFL.

The 2014 class has produced plenty of talented players that actually contributed to the success of WSU where as the 2010 class did not. That's a fact Ed. The results are the results.

As to Ryan Leaf.

Little is mentioned, but the University of Miami wanted Leaf to play linebacker.

In fact it was Dennis Ericson who wanted to bring him down there so Leaf was no "unknown" he was sought after recruit by Ericson who Price caught wind of and convinced him to stick with QB and play for WSU.

Because of what Price did with Bledsoe Leaf was on board. To think Price wasn't bringing in players is quite a myth. Bledsoe was drafted round 1 #1 by the Patriots and that sold a lot of people to come to WSU in 1994 as Bledsoe was drafted in 1993.

So what you say with Leaf and the miraculous rise of WSU in 1997 was an absolute by product of Bledsoe being drafted and Price being able to reel in quality prospects (Like Leaf) that set the stage... for the Rose Bowl.

Please tell how many from the class of 2014 were talented that you define as plenty.

 

[etowncoug]

Everyone agrees Price could recruit good players. He just took a lot of chances on players from one of three categories.
1) Non-prototypical athletes (Trufant, Mike Bush, Jason Gesser)
2) Grade risks (Prop 48 types and later risks)
3) Character risks (Michael Black etc)

This gave his teams an island of misfit toys quality too them. It was a scrappy bunch, but a two edged sword. When things really clicked, we were a top 10 team. When they didnt, we were the conference doormat. And in years like 1994 we had an awesome defense, the offense didn't come together.

Price seemed to have a gift for taking chances on guys. It worked out more often than not for him. But you still had years like 1999 where your starting running back decides to steal a laptop.

Paul Wulff was a disaster coach. He deserved to get canned and I have no love for the man. Leach is a much better coach and recruiter. Better at talent evaluation yoo. That being said, I cannot call the 2014 class anything other than a disaster. If I were to grade these classes I would say

2012: A-
2013: A+
2014: D- (Hercules, Luvu, and Dillard keep it from an F)
2015: C Disappointing because this group had the potential to be a lot better.
2016: B Very strong Oline Class. Thompson and Woods look like stars. Lots of solid contributors here, too. Bell, Rogers, Patmon etc.
2017: B+ Looks like a class with a lot of star power: Tay Martin, Jamire Calvin, Sean Harper, and Abraham Lucas. Grade might drop in future years if others don't step up as role players.
2018: A This looks like a special group. It'll be interesting to see how many grab PT early.

 

[Cougatron]

Good grief....who were the players out of a class of 18 that contributed to that success? Just maybe 12/13 were such strong classes that carried them....

Who were the players that contributed to the success?

Well to do that we will be looking at the contributions from 2015,2016,2017 seasons by 2014 people..


- Keith Harrington scored 5 touchdowns, 90 plays for 600+ yards
- Andre Dillard started 26+ games named twice all conference
- Frankie Luvu - 69 solo tackles 41 asst 8 sacks 2 interceptions 3 forced fumbles and 3 fumble recoveries
- Hercules Matafa - 83 solo tackles 38 assists 21 sacks 3 forced fumbles and 2 fumble recoveries.
- Peyton Bender despite never being able to supplant Falk, Bender came in the Colorado game and threw 13/22 for 133 yards and 1 TD and 1 INT sealing the Cougs 8th win of the season
- Deion Singleton - in 2017 appeared in 8 games 1 tackle 1 breakup
- Kingston Fernandez - appeared in 11 games 1 tackle 3 assists
- Calvin Green in 2015 believe it or not recorded 3 tackles and 4 assist
- Tapa had 3 tackles and 7 assists in 2016
- Greg Hoyd - 3 tackles in 2016

Maybe just maybe The 12 / 13 class which would be older got more playing time than others in 2014, but still 2014 had players emerge who contributed...

 

[etowncoug]

Who were the players that contributed to the success?

Well to do that we will be looking at the contributions from 2015,2016,2017 seasons by 2014 people..


- Keith Harrington scored 5 touchdowns, 90 plays for 600+ yards
- Andre Dillard started 26+ games named twice all conference
- Frankie Luvu - 69 solo tackles 41 asst 8 sacks 2 interceptions 3 forced fumbles and 3 fumble recoveries
- Hercules Matafa - 83 solo tackles 38 assists 21 sacks 3 forced fumbles and 2 fumble recoveries.
- Peyton Bender despite never being able to supplant Falk, Bender came in the Colorado game and threw 13/22 for 133 yards and 1 TD and 1 INT sealing the Cougs 8th win of the season
- Deion Singleton - in 2017 appeared in 8 games 1 tackle 1 breakup
- Kingston Fernandez - appeared in 11 games 1 tackle 3 assists
- Calvin Green in 2015 believe it or not recorded 3 tackles and 4 assist
- Tapa had 3 tackles and 7 assists in 2016
- Greg Hoyd - 3 tackles in 2016

Maybe just maybe The 12 / 13 class which would be older got more playing time than others in 2014, but still 2014 had players emerge who contributed...

The contributions of the players you mentioned are pretty pathetic. It says something about the quality of the class that they were never able to force their way meaningfully onto the field.
Bender-- passed by Hilinski, didn't focus on school
Green-- got in the dog house.
Harrington-- hurt, passed by Williams.
Singleton-- deep reserve
Fernandez-- deep reserve
Tapa-- rotation guy, lost focus on school
Hoyd-- ST guy, deep reserve. Wasnt invited back once he got his degree.

Not exactly a group I'd tout.

 

[CougEd]

Who were the players that contributed to the success?

Well to do that we will be looking at the contributions from 2015,2016,2017 seasons by 2014 people..


- Keith Harrington scored 5 touchdowns, 90 plays for 600+ yards
- Andre Dillard started 26+ games named twice all conference
- Frankie Luvu - 69 solo tackles 41 asst 8 sacks 2 interceptions 3 forced fumbles and 3 fumble recoveries
- Hercules Matafa - 83 solo tackles 38 assists 21 sacks 3 forced fumbles and 2 fumble recoveries.
- Peyton Bender despite never being able to supplant Falk, Bender came in the Colorado game and threw 13/22 for 133 yards and 1 TD and 1 INT sealing the Cougs 8th win of the season
- Deion Singleton - in 2017 appeared in 8 games 1 tackle 1 breakup
- Kingston Fernandez - appeared in 11 games 1 tackle 3 assists
- Calvin Green in 2015 believe it or not recorded 3 tackles and 4 assist
- Tapa had 3 tackles and 7 assists in 2016
- Greg Hoyd - 3 tackles in 2016

Maybe just maybe The 12 / 13 class which would be older got more playing time than others in 2014, but still 2014 had players emerge who contributed...

Are you serious. You are putting up a guy who has three tackles in his career? Or Fernandez who has one and three assists? And I am giving you the benefit by saying the story is not written on him yet and could completely come out of the woodwork and play well. Heck, why didn't you put me on that list?

There are two things that go against that class in terms of RANKINGS. First the size. They only had seven kids. Then you have three contributors and a fourth in Harrington who is a good football player but may never get the touches.

You have one undersized but outstanding football player in Hercules, Luvu who had a very solid career, and Dillard will get drafted.

Bender and Tapa flunked out. They never got the production out of them that they could have. One career tackle or two career tackles doesn't make that player a "solid" contributor.

 

[CougEd]

The contributions of the players you mentioned are pretty pathetic. It says something about the quality of the class that they were never able to force their way meaningfully onto the field.
Bender-- passed by Hilinski, didn't focus on school
Green-- got in the dog house.
Harrington-- hurt, passed by Williams.
Singleton-- deep reserve
Fernandez-- deep reserve
Tapa-- rotation guy, lost focus on school
Hoyd-- ST guy, deep reserve. Wasnt invited back once he got his degree.

Not exactly a group I'd tout.

Every coach has a class or two like this. If this was 2016 I would say the jury is still out. But we know what we have at this point. Two of the very best players are no longer on the roster in Hercules and Luvu. That leaves one solid contributor moving forward.

 

[PeteTheChop]

2016: B Very strong Oline Class. Thompson and Woods look like stars. Lots of solid contributors here, too. Bell, Rogers, Patmon etc.
2017: B+ Looks like a class with a lot of star power: Tay Martin, Jamire Calvin, Sean Harper, and Abraham Lucas. Grade might drop in future years if others don't step up as role players.
2018: A This looks like a special group. It'll be interesting to see how many grab PT early.

Great post E-Town and one more reason to be optimistic for the coming season provided the QB situation gets squared away and the D-Line stays healthy.

What about those recruiting rankings makes some posters here say they’ll be satisfied simply with a .500 season??

If things break right, this team could once again contend for the North Division title in November.

I guess CML will have to do it 6 or 7 years in a row to get everyone in Coug Nation to finally stop expecting the black cloud to stall over Martin Stadium.

 

[Cougatron]

Are you serious. You are putting up a guy who has three tackles in his career? Or Fernandez who has one and three assists? And I am giving you the benefit by saying the story is not written on him yet and could completely come out of the woodwork and play well. Heck, why didn't you put me on that list?

There are two things that go against that class in terms of RANKINGS. First the size. They only had seven kids. Then you have three contributors and a fourth in Harrington who is a good football player but may never get the touches.

You have one undersized but outstanding football player in Hercules, Luvu who had a very solid career, and Dillard will get drafted.

Bender and Tapa flunked out. They never got the production out of them that they could have. One career tackle or two career tackles doesn't make that player a "solid" contributor.

You are not on the list because you are an idiot and a contribution is a contribution Ed. You obviously don't know how team sports work.

As I explained to you before Ed which is apparently way beyond the comprehension of your small brain, teams are made up of multiple classes. To illustrate this... once again.

Class of 2012 Contribution years

2012 - Fresh (RS)
2013 - Soph (RS Fresh)
2014 - Junior (RS Soph)
2015 - Senior (RS Junior)
2016 - RS Senior

2013 - Fresh (RS)
2014 - Soph (RS Fresh)
2015 - Junior (Rs Soph)
2016 - Senior (RS JR)
2017 - RS Senior

2014 - Fresh (RS)
2015 - Soph (RS Fresh)
2016 - Junior (Rs Soph)
2017 - Senior (RS JR)
2018 - RS Senior

2015 - Fresh (RS)
2016 - Soph (RS Fresh)
2017 - Junior (Rs Soph)
2018 - Senior (RS JR)
2019 - RS Senior

2016 - Fresh (RS)
2017 - Soph (RS Fresh)
2018 - Junior (Rs Soph)
2019 - Senior (RS JR)
2020 - RS Senior

2017 - Fresh (RS)
2018 - Soph (RS Fresh)
2019 - Junior (Rs Soph)
2020 - Senior (RS JR)
2021 - RS Senior

These are all the classes (excluding the 2018 class incoming that could have contributed to the 2015-2017 seasons)

Now Let's take a look at what we have for 2015.

From the 2012 Class = : 2015 - Seniors (RS Junior)
From the 2013 Class = 2015 - Junior (Rs Soph)
From the 2014 Class = 2015 - Soph (RS Fresh)
From the 2015 Class = 2015 - Fresh (RS) ** True Freshmen only

Also from 2011 any ** RS Seniors

So as you can see Ed in 2015 it's not "Just the 2014 class" it's players from all the classes listed above. The 2014 class as far as contributions still will have 2 classes before them that are upper classmen.

So let's take a look at the roster for the 2015 season.

Here's some of the game notes from the Sun Bowl.

Calvin Green (Nickel) made his first career start
• Jamal Morrow caught his fourth TD pass of the season
• Luke Falk tossed two touchdown passes, has 38, most in school history
• Gabe Marks caught five passes, pushing season total to 104, second-most in WSU history
• Gabe Mark’s second-quarter touchdown reception extended his WSU single-season record to 15 and moved him into third place on WSU’s career list with 24.
• Dom Williams’ first catch of the game, a 33-yard reception, pushed the senior receiver over the 1,000-yard mark for the first time in his career.
• Gabe Marks (1,192) and Dom Williams (1,040) become the first Cougar wide receiving duo to surpass the 1,000-yard mark in the same season.
• Peyton Pelluer made three tackles, pushing season total to 101
• Pelluer made his first career interception • Hercules Mata’afa recorded his seventh sack of the season
• Destiny Vaeao recorded his 4.5 sack of the season
• Ivan McLennan recorded his sixth sack of the season
• Darryl Paulo recorded his seventh sack of the season
• Erik Powell’s 30-yard field goal in the second quarter was his 19th of the season, fourth-most in WSU history
• Marcellus Pippins recorded his team-leading third fumble of the season • Robert Barber forced recorded his second forced fumble of the season
• Shalom Luani recorded his team-leading fourth interception of the season

So we have Calvin Green from the 2014 class making his first start
We have Gabe Marks from 2012
We have Dom Williams from 2011
We have Destiny Vaeo from 2012
We have Hercules from the 2014 class - Played in all 13 games, totaling 32 tackles, 11.0 tackles-for-loss and 7.0 sacks
We have Jamal Morrow from 2013 catching his 4th TD pass

It's almost as if in 2015 we could play the best players from each previous class, and with only 44 slots on a two deep....
It shouldn't surprise you that older classes have more players in that two deep as they have more experience AND more strength and conditioning.

Remember that 5 classes make up the 2015 team.

The 2015 True Fresh
the 2014 RS Fresh/ Soph
the 2013 RS Soph / Juniors
the 2012 RS Junior / Seniors
the 2011 RS Seniors

With each class having 25 possible slots that would be 125 players.

But... But... A team is only allowed 85 scholarship players at any given time.

Which means that from those 5 possible contributors 40 players will not be on scholarship by 2015.

And of those 125 only 44 will be in the two deep in 2015.

So if there are only 44 contributor slots out of a possible 125 players that means that some players in each class aren't going to make it. In fact that would be only the top 35% are probably going to see the field..

Meaning that the actual gage for a class to be considered a success only 8-9 contributors per class are required (with obviously some having slightly more or slightly less.

Now I understand if you are an idiot, like yourself, this may be too complicated for you to comprehend.

 

[CougEd]

You are not on the list because you are an idiot and a contribution is a contribution Ed. You obviously don't know how team sports work.

As I explained to you before Ed which is apparently way beyond the comprehension of your small brain, teams are made up of multiple classes. To illustrate this... once again.

Class of 2012 Contribution years

2012 - Fresh (RS)
2013 - Soph (RS Fresh)
2014 - Junior (RS Soph)
2015 - Senior (RS Junior)
2016 - RS Senior

2013 - Fresh (RS)
2014 - Soph (RS Fresh)
2015 - Junior (Rs Soph)
2016 - Senior (RS JR)
2017 - RS Senior

2014 - Fresh (RS)
2015 - Soph (RS Fresh)
2016 - Junior (Rs Soph)
2017 - Senior (RS JR)
2018 - RS Senior

2015 - Fresh (RS)
2016 - Soph (RS Fresh)
2017 - Junior (Rs Soph)
2018 - Senior (RS JR)
2019 - RS Senior

2016 - Fresh (RS)
2017 - Soph (RS Fresh)
2018 - Junior (Rs Soph)
2019 - Senior (RS JR)
2020 - RS Senior

2017 - Fresh (RS)
2018 - Soph (RS Fresh)
2019 - Junior (Rs Soph)
2020 - Senior (RS JR)
2021 - RS Senior

These are all the classes (excluding the 2018 class incoming that could have contributed to the 2015-2017 seasons)

Now Let's take a look at what we have for 2015.

From the 2012 Class = : 2015 - Seniors (RS Junior)
From the 2013 Class = 2015 - Junior (Rs Soph)
From the 2014 Class = 2015 - Soph (RS Fresh)
From the 2015 Class = 2015 - Fresh (RS) ** True Freshmen only

Also from 2011 any ** RS Seniors

So as you can see Ed in 2015 it's not "Just the 2014 class" it's players from all the classes listed above. The 2014 class as far as contributions still will have 2 classes before them that are upper classmen.

So let's take a look at the roster for the 2015 season.

Here's some of the game notes from the Sun Bowl.

Calvin Green (Nickel) made his first career start
• Jamal Morrow caught his fourth TD pass of the season
• Luke Falk tossed two touchdown passes, has 38, most in school history
• Gabe Marks caught five passes, pushing season total to 104, second-most in WSU history
• Gabe Mark’s second-quarter touchdown reception extended his WSU single-season record to 15 and moved him into third place on WSU’s career list with 24.
• Dom Williams’ first catch of the game, a 33-yard reception, pushed the senior receiver over the 1,000-yard mark for the first time in his career.
• Gabe Marks (1,192) and Dom Williams (1,040) become the first Cougar wide receiving duo to surpass the 1,000-yard mark in the same season.
• Peyton Pelluer made three tackles, pushing season total to 101
• Pelluer made his first career interception • Hercules Mata’afa recorded his seventh sack of the season
• Destiny Vaeao recorded his 4.5 sack of the season
• Ivan McLennan recorded his sixth sack of the season
• Darryl Paulo recorded his seventh sack of the season
• Erik Powell’s 30-yard field goal in the second quarter was his 19th of the season, fourth-most in WSU history
• Marcellus Pippins recorded his team-leading third fumble of the season • Robert Barber forced recorded his second forced fumble of the season
• Shalom Luani recorded his team-leading fourth interception of the season

So we have Calvin Green from the 2014 class making his first start
We have Gabe Marks from 2012
We have Dom Williams from 2011
We have Destiny Vaeo from 2012
We have Hercules from the 2014 class - Played in all 13 games, totaling 32 tackles, 11.0 tackles-for-loss and 7.0 sacks
We have Jamal Morrow from 2013 catching his 4th TD pass

It's almost as if in 2015 we could play the best players from each previous class, and with only 44 slots on a two deep....
It shouldn't surprise you that older classes have more players in that two deep as they have more experience AND more strength and conditioning.

Remember that 5 classes make up the 2015 team.

The 2015 True Fresh
the 2014 RS Fresh/ Soph
the 2013 RS Soph / Juniors
the 2012 RS Junior / Seniors
the 2011 RS Seniors

With each class having 25 possible slots that would be 125 players.

But... But... A team is only allowed 85 scholarship players at any given time.

Which means that from those 5 possible contributors 40 players will not be on scholarship by 2015.

And of those 125 only 44 will be in the two deep in 2015.

So if there are only 44 contributor slots out of a possible 125 players that means that some players in each class aren't going to make it. In fact that would be only the top 35% are probably going to see the field..

Meaning that the actual gage for a class to be considered a success only 8-9 contributors per class are required (with obviously some having slightly more or slightly less.

Now I understand if you are an idiot, like yourself, this may be too complicated for you to comprehend.

You can keep posting graphs and the like and it doesn’t make the class any better . If you want contributions Kyle McCartney a walk on for Wulff had more tackles than Singleton green and Hernandez combined and he only played on special teams . If you had one player and it was a punter but he contributed and the team won around him because of talent in other classes make that class successful.

Let’s take a look at each player . Tapa and Fernandez . WSU ran the same three players out there last year cause they had no depth. When they had cooper barber destiny McLennan etc they rotated people in . They could have rotated tapa and Fernandez in and didn’t.

Green —-didn’t he come in at receiver . Wouldn’t he have been able to be in the rotation with two freshman in the slot last year? Why didn’t he?

Should we talk about the lineman that weren’t around and a Paul Wulff recruit that was undersized started because the players who had left from 2014?

Hoyd... why didn’t he play. Dotson was hurt numerous times and he still didnt get on the field.

So now we are in 2018, which there should be redshirt senior leadership and they have one player in Dillard who is an all conference player .

I could suit up at my age and play 20 snaps and fall into the stats hoyd Singleton Fernandez and Green have for their career.

Wilson DID make it to the nfl. He was productive at WSU. Buchanon did make it to the nfl. And I will tell you what.. I will match balls record of putting kids into the nfl with bredkes any day of the week.

Feel free to put up stats when they could or should play, the winning record etc, but there is no question a class of Wilson buchanon fullington butler (nfl players) Rodgers drafted , Halliday is a better class than Dillard herc and Luvu. And that is by any measurement . Call it luck. A blind squirrel finding a nut, taking rejects that are coached up. A multitude of reasons you can give, but they had more impact players .

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

I

You can keep posting graphs and the like and it doesn’t make the class any better . If you want contributions Kyle McCartney a walk on for Wulff had more tackles than Singleton green and Hernandez combined and he only played on special teams . If you had one player and it was a punter but he contributed and the team won around him because of talent in other classes make that class successful.

Let’s take a look at each player . Tapa and Fernandez . WSU ran the same three players out there last year cause they had no depth. When they had cooper barber destiny McLennan etc they rotated people in . They could have rotated tapa and Fernandez in and didn’t.

Green —-didn’t he come in at receiver . Wouldn’t he have been able to be in the rotation with two freshman in the slot last year? Why didn’t he?

Should we talk about the lineman that weren’t around and a Paul Wulff recruit that was undersized started because the players who had left from 2014?

Hoyd... why didn’t he play. Dotson was hurt numerous times and he still didnt get on the field.

So now we are in 2018, which there should be redshirt senior leadership and they have one player in Dillard who is an all conference player .

I could suit up at my age and play 20 snaps and fall into the stats hoyd Singleton Fernandez and Green have for their career.

Wilson DID make it to the nfl. He was productive at WSU. Buchanon did make it to the nfl. And I will tell you what.. I will match balls record of putting kids into the nfl with bredkes any day of the week.

Feel free to put up stats when they could or should play, the winning record etc, but there is no question a class of Wilson buchanon fullington butler (nfl players) Rodgers drafted , Halliday is a better class than Dillard herc and Luvu. And that is by any measurement . Call it luck. A blind squirrel finding a nut, taking rejects that are coached up. A multitude of reasons you can give, but they had more impact players .

I simply call it you gushing over Wulff and shitting on CML any and every chance you can get. Pretty cut and dry.

 

[CougPatrol]

I

I simply call it you gushing over Wulff and shitting on CPW any and every chance you can get. Pretty cut and dry.

Well, it's pretty obvious to most of us that Wulff is superior to CPW.

 

[etowncoug]

You are not on the list because you are an idiot and a contribution is a contribution Ed. You obviously don't know how team sports work.

As I explained to you before Ed which is apparently way beyond the comprehension of your small brain, teams are made up of multiple classes. To illustrate this... once again.

Class of 2012 Contribution years

2012 - Fresh (RS)
2013 - Soph (RS Fresh)
2014 - Junior (RS Soph)
2015 - Senior (RS Junior)
2016 - RS Senior

2013 - Fresh (RS)
2014 - Soph (RS Fresh)
2015 - Junior (Rs Soph)
2016 - Senior (RS JR)
2017 - RS Senior

2014 - Fresh (RS)
2015 - Soph (RS Fresh)
2016 - Junior (Rs Soph)
2017 - Senior (RS JR)
2018 - RS Senior

2015 - Fresh (RS)
2016 - Soph (RS Fresh)
2017 - Junior (Rs Soph)
2018 - Senior (RS JR)
2019 - RS Senior

2016 - Fresh (RS)
2017 - Soph (RS Fresh)
2018 - Junior (Rs Soph)
2019 - Senior (RS JR)
2020 - RS Senior

2017 - Fresh (RS)
2018 - Soph (RS Fresh)
2019 - Junior (Rs Soph)
2020 - Senior (RS JR)
2021 - RS Senior

These are all the classes (excluding the 2018 class incoming that could have contributed to the 2015-2017 seasons)

Now Let's take a look at what we have for 2015.

From the 2012 Class = : 2015 - Seniors (RS Junior)
From the 2013 Class = 2015 - Junior (Rs Soph)
From the 2014 Class = 2015 - Soph (RS Fresh)
From the 2015 Class = 2015 - Fresh (RS) ** True Freshmen only

Also from 2011 any ** RS Seniors

So as you can see Ed in 2015 it's not "Just the 2014 class" it's players from all the classes listed above. The 2014 class as far as contributions still will have 2 classes before them that are upper classmen.

So let's take a look at the roster for the 2015 season.

Here's some of the game notes from the Sun Bowl.

Calvin Green (Nickel) made his first career start
• Jamal Morrow caught his fourth TD pass of the season
• Luke Falk tossed two touchdown passes, has 38, most in school history
• Gabe Marks caught five passes, pushing season total to 104, second-most in WSU history
• Gabe Mark’s second-quarter touchdown reception extended his WSU single-season record to 15 and moved him into third place on WSU’s career list with 24.
• Dom Williams’ first catch of the game, a 33-yard reception, pushed the senior receiver over the 1,000-yard mark for the first time in his career.
• Gabe Marks (1,192) and Dom Williams (1,040) become the first Cougar wide receiving duo to surpass the 1,000-yard mark in the same season.
• Peyton Pelluer made three tackles, pushing season total to 101
• Pelluer made his first career interception • Hercules Mata’afa recorded his seventh sack of the season
• Destiny Vaeao recorded his 4.5 sack of the season
• Ivan McLennan recorded his sixth sack of the season
• Darryl Paulo recorded his seventh sack of the season
• Erik Powell’s 30-yard field goal in the second quarter was his 19th of the season, fourth-most in WSU history
• Marcellus Pippins recorded his team-leading third fumble of the season • Robert Barber forced recorded his second forced fumble of the season
• Shalom Luani recorded his team-leading fourth interception of the season

So we have Calvin Green from the 2014 class making his first start
We have Gabe Marks from 2012
We have Dom Williams from 2011
We have Destiny Vaeo from 2012
We have Hercules from the 2014 class - Played in all 13 games, totaling 32 tackles, 11.0 tackles-for-loss and 7.0 sacks
We have Jamal Morrow from 2013 catching his 4th TD pass

It's almost as if in 2015 we could play the best players from each previous class, and with only 44 slots on a two deep....
It shouldn't surprise you that older classes have more players in that two deep as they have more experience AND more strength and conditioning.

Remember that 5 classes make up the 2015 team.

The 2015 True Fresh
the 2014 RS Fresh/ Soph
the 2013 RS Soph / Juniors
the 2012 RS Junior / Seniors
the 2011 RS Seniors

With each class having 25 possible slots that would be 125 players.

But... But... A team is only allowed 85 scholarship players at any given time.

Which means that from those 5 possible contributors 40 players will not be on scholarship by 2015.

And of those 125 only 44 will be in the two deep in 2015.

So if there are only 44 contributor slots out of a possible 125 players that means that some players in each class aren't going to make it. In fact that would be only the top 35% are probably going to see the field..

Meaning that the actual gage for a class to be considered a success only 8-9 contributors per class are required (with obviously some having slightly more or slightly less.

Now I understand if you are an idiot, like yourself, this may be too complicated for you to comprehend.

Your logic falls apart when you factor in the fact participation is always going to skew towards upperclassman. There is no shame in large portions of the class not participating in the first few seasons, but if a class isn't occupying at least doubt digits on the depth chart in years 4 and 5 you are going to have an incredibly young team. Or you turn to the JC ranks to fill holes.

I

I simply call it you gushing over Wulff and shitting on CPW any and every chance you can get. Pretty cut and dry.

The Wulff debate is weird to me. The era was embarrassing and I don't understand why people keep wanting to put a positive spin on it. Though I dont get Tron's obsession with the era either. Even to the point of excusing performance and aspects he'd crucify Wulff over. I'm grateful we have a real coach now and want to move forward.

Seems a lot of people here are traumatized by the past. Best to seek counseling and move forward.

 

[WASH ST A&M FAN]

I

I simply call it you gushing over Wulff and shitting on CPW any and every chance you can get. Pretty cut and dry.

This can’t be a more accurate post.