Wait, what? Wulff is CPW. Coach Paul Wulff = CPW. I must be missing something here.
Do recruiting rankings matter?
- Thread starter PeteTheChop
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Wait, what? Wulff is CPW. Coach Paul Wulff = CPW. I must be missing something here.
Actually it could on several accounts. First, the “technical” aspect of the post when comparing my love for Paul Wulff and my hate for cpw... that can’t be more inaccurate... unless I have split personalities .
Second it is inaccurate simply stating the truth he had a bad recruiting class by comparison not only to his own but the 91 st ranked recruiting class (which was Wulff best) is crapping on him then so be it. The I crapped on who I think was WSU’s best coach in Mike Price as well. And I sat through in the rain a 51-3 manhandling in the 2000 Apple Cup believing Price was going to get it turned around .
Price had a disaster in 1994. It was his highest ranked class and on PAPER it even surpassed 99. But when things fell apart in 98 it was because what should have been a senior class was all gone . In hindsight that class sucked. Every great coach has dealt with this . Sorry you don’t read that I feel 12/13 were A plus classes . And 2015 not sure of.
Coach Leach will be here a long time unless he and Schultz can’t coexist . And if they can’t one of them will be gone .
Leach even in an interview while down at tech none of his players were offered by Texas or a and m. He does more with less. He will run a more even program than Price but not sure we will see the highs out of him but probably won’t see the lows. I think 2018 will be his lowest mark moving forward . If that is crappy on the coach then so be it.
Fixed my errorWait, what? Wulff is CPW. Coach Paul Wulff = CPW. I must be missing something here.
You could have talked about Leach's recruiting, or anything else for that matter, without bring up and lauding your hero CPW, but you chose not to. As per usual.
Why is Paul Wulff my hero. He coached here .
Talking about “recruiting rankings “ I simply mentioned Doba rankings Wulff rankings and leach. Doba had the highest and his recruiting struggled . Wulff was 90’s and he had a few players that turned out. Leach has classes 45-60. He did very well in 12/13 and struggled in 14. And IF they struggle this year it will because lack of players from the 14 class.
Would u feel better if I said the 14 class was good ?
Need someone to pop your shoulder back in? You reached so far that it might not be possible to get that shoulder fixed. Holy f#ck you are delusional.
Peyton.......f'ing......Bender? Really? Calvin Green's 3 tackles are meaningful? Kingston Fernandez's single career tackle? Tapa with 3 and Hoyd with 3? You listed four guys that have 10 career tackles between them and call that meaningful?
Jesus Christ.......when are you going to realize how stupid you sound when you try to sell up that class? What makes it worse is that you sell up the 10 tackles amongst those four guys, but take a giant dump on players who made it to the NFL.
The great thing about the Peyton Bender argument is he was been unable to keep the starting job at the one power 5 school which might dethrone Wulff for worst 4 year run.
Less division in the 2016 Presidential election than with the Walden-Wulff conundrum here at CougZone.
Digging in on one side, we have the results-oriented Yaki, Tron, Loyal, Bleed et al who wanted CPW escorted in shackles and stuffed into the luggage compartment on Pullman's next Greyhound departure at some point during the 69-0 loss to USC in 2008.
On the other side, perhaps priding themselves on taking a more nuanced view, we have Ed, Flatland, Brand X leadership, Bud Withers, etc. They saw a roster gutted by the previous staff's lackluster (or worse?) recruiting and inattention to discipline and believed the first-year coach had a massive rebuild on his hands.
Never, it seems, the twain shall meet.
One question for both sides:
CPW went 2-11 in 2008.
How many games does CML win at WSU in '08?
Digging in on one side, we have the results-oriented Yaki, Tron, Loyal, Bleed et al who wanted CPW escorted in shackles and stuffed into the luggage compartment on Pullman's next Greyhound departure at some point during the 69-0 loss to USC in 2008.
On the other side, perhaps priding themselves on taking a more nuanced view, we have Ed, Flatland, Brand X leadership, Bud Withers, etc. They saw a roster gutted by the previous staff's lackluster (or worse?) recruiting and inattention to discipline and believed the first-year coach had a massive rebuild on his hands.
Never, it seems, the twain shall meet.
One question for both sides:
CPW went 2-11 in 2008.
How many games does CML win at WSU in '08?
Leach would of "ran" several more players than were "ran" in 2008'. However, he would of gave more players something to hang their hats on for the future and after having been named...would of received a handful of better players in the freshman class. Ed and I debated this scenario on paid board back in 2012'. When a recruiting class goes from 25-35 DI offers per class to 125 plus offers..there's at least a consensus among fellow DI coaches that they appear to be future Pac12 players coming in.
Good post Fro.
What did you and Ed come up with?
I really think CML finds a way to get at least 4 wins in 2008 due to his comfort level with big-time college football as well as (like you mentioned) increased contributions from his higher rated recruiting glass.
WSU went 3-9 Leach's first season. We got boatraced in our opener against a middling BYU team that went 6-5 against the rest of their regular season schedule. He gacked against 1-11 CU and handed the game away to them with terrible coaching decisions. We found a way to lose by 43 points to a Utah team that didn't make a bowl game. A mediocre ASU team thumped us late in the season as some of the team was giving up. We struggled to beat a bad UNLV team/ We needed a miraculous finish to beat UW to avoid an 0-9 conference finish.
Given the results of that 2012 season, I don't see CML doing well in 2008. We played 5 teams that won 9+ games that year. We played 7 bowl teams. We weren't going to beat Stanford or ASU on the road with that team. WSU might have won 3 or 4 games in 2008 with CML on the sidelines, and we wouldn't have set school and conference records for futility, but that was a badly flawed roster that needed to be cleaned up. Wulff did a bad job in 2008 and deserves a lot of the criticism that he receives, but that doesn't mean that some people aren't irrational in their hate of the man.
I'm glad that Wulff is gone because he didn't get us to a bowl game in four years. If he, and anyone who supports him, didn't like him getting fired, they just need to get over it because results do matter and he didn't get them when it mattered in year 4. Letting SDSU boatrace us in the second half and failing to get an extra 6" against Utah cost him. It didn't help that the refs screwed us against UCLA and it sucked that Tuel got hurt, but at the end of the day, a coach is responsible for the results in year 4 and Wulff failed. If WSU had gone 4-8 in 2015, people would have been talking about firing Leach, and deservedly so. So, I don't blindly support Wulff and think he got screwed, I just feel that some of our fans lack any objectivity.
Now that everything is in the rear view mirror why would anyone think the end results in wins and losses would be greatly different . Would we still have got boat raced by usc ? Yep. Would it have been more like 69-10? Probably . I just don’t know how with the qbs on campus , the okine injuries and one PAC 10 dt in ahmu how they stop anyone .
Very different circumstances.
Before Wulff we were 5-7 in 2007
Beat UCLA, Beat Stanford, Beat San Diego State, beat UW
We were 25.7 ppg
And allowed 32.4 ppg
Wulff in 2008...
2-11
12.7 ppg
And allowed 43.8 ppg.
We scored half as much and opponents averaged 10 points more from a 5-7 season.
Now let’s look at 2011
29.8 ppg scored
31.8 ppg scored
Record 4-8
2012
20.4 ppg scored
33.7 ppg allowed
Wulff year 4 to Leach year 1
about 10 on offense less
Allowed 2 points on defense more
Doba to Wulff year 1.
13 points less on offense
Allowed 11 points more on defense.
But when the strength of schedule is what tells the complete story.
Doba in 2007 faced the 16th ranked strength of schedule
Wulff faced the 25th.
So Wulff had an easier schedule than his predecessor had in his last year and produced dramatically worse performance.
Wulff faced the 61st ranked Strength of schedule in 2011 and Leach the 35th in 2012.
So despite playing a harder schedule than his predecessor where Wulff played an easier one Leach still had a vastly better performance in year 1.
(This is also why the “Doba screwed over Wulff” lie was created was to hide just how out of his league Wulff was. He was dramatically out of his league and the only excuse to try and conceal it was “Blame Doba”)
Once Leach cleared out the horrible Wulff roster management and recruiting in year 4 Leach posted the following
9-4 Record
31.5 ppg
27.7 ppg allowed
Against the 56th ranked strength of schedule
Again here is year 4 Wulff
4-8
29.8 ppg
31.8 ppg
Against the 61st strength of schedule.
Leach scored 2 points more per game
And also defensively allowed 5 fewer points per game against a stronger schedule.
Wulff wasn’t screwed over. He tanked the program and still did about as well as Doba did his last year with fewer wins and playing a much easier schedule after 4 years.
So if you think Doba should have been let go because of his last year...Wulff should have too because he produced about the same losing 1 more game against an easier schedule.
He was out of his league from the very beginning and even at year 4 wasn’t any better than Doba’s last year.
His Legacy is cemented as one the worst coaches we’ve ever had, and I can tell you from watching those games in 08 from watching the team in 07 it was like an atom bomb hit the program. The stink you could smell it. Wulff stink had hit. It was some of the most embarrassing football I have ever seen in my entire life.
Some people rank the 2008/2009 teams as some of the worst in the history of BCS and after seeing it live in 08 I would have to agree.
Was there any player loss between 2007 and 2008? Take a peek at the numbers between 97 and 98. Tell me the relevance.
Ed every year there is loss from graduation and attrition. Every year.
The fact is Paul Wulff screwed up really bad Ed. He had players he recruited running grow houses
He also booted players like Chris Ivory
https://web.archive.org/web/2011062...ource.com/html/cougars/2009636366_coug11.html
The guy had an NFL pro bowl running back leading rusher for the AFC handed to him ED... and I don’t want to hear about his injuries... Walkosky took him because Wulff didn’t want him. Wulff had HORRIBLE S&C and it showed. He had HORRIBLE roster management and it showed.
Everybody could tell Ivory was a great player except Wulff who burried him on the depth chart till he just wanted to leave.
And Tardy was good too. But he wasn’t Ivory. He could of played both but instead opted for Mitz (who was slow as dirt) Mitz ran a 4.71 40 at his pro day.
Ivory was a solid 4.5 40 at 6’ 215 pounds and ran like Marshawn Lynch. A Pro Bowl caliber running back....HANDED to Wulff and he f*cked it up
Wulff had players Ed he just didn’t know what to do with them and basically hosed the program. Blamed Doba (and dumb people like yourself believed him that he was “doing it the right way”)
The Doba left me no players is a myth.
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If Wulff was just so damned terrible and Leach is so freakin' awesome, how do you explain us going to a bowl game in 2013 and then going 3-9 in 2014? If Leach is so great, why did WSU finish with a worse record in 2012 than 2011 under Wulff? Why the regression? I do think that Leach is a better coach than Wulff (duh?) but your hatred of Wulff clouds your judgement on the situation. The WSU job is a tough job.
And for the record......I didn't say that Wulff was screwed over. You saying that just proves that you can't read and that you don't really care about intelligent conversation. You routinely ignore what others say and then twist everything to your angle. I said that WSU got screwed by the referees in the UCLA game......Us means WSU......not Wulff. If you read the whole paragraph, I said that it didn't matter because Wulff, at the end of the day, was responsible for the team not making a bowl game.
If you want to make up shi!t and argue incessantly about whether or not Wulff should have kept his job.....respond to Ed.....not me. I think he should have been fired at the end of the 2011 season and have always said that.
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Why? Because Leach is trying to teach 85 kids all his new stuff and those 85 kids are mostly not at a Pac 12 level.
So you try as hard as you can to get them up to speed as quickly as you can. It wasn’t some fall off a cliff change in the program it was just still bad, but the repetition and training was important for the next year that went 6-6.
Most first year is regression because it’s all new. Coaches, scheme. It’s all new. With Wulff it was like we were new to football the sport. Or like a division 2 team playing in the bcs. I never had seen anything like it.
So why the drop in 2014?
Because there were no DBs on the roster because Chris Ball didn’t recruit any DBs 1 year. Like zero, and Breske was weak on recruiting. So I blame him too.
We lost Rutgers barely and if you remember that game Tracy Clark opening play burned for a TD.
The Cal game was all kinds of stupid. Nevada just made us look soft. We were maybe a 6-6 team again if we were playing a little smarter and didn’t have the secondary gaps. And our special teams were terrible with so many missed kicks and blocks and just total shit from Coach Russell.
Despite the step back I thought Leach did great upgrading hires. Mele, Grinch, Manning were great upgrades and the secondary got shored up and defense improved.
Falk was calmer than Halliday (who I think was frustrated in 2014 season because he was ready to go but the rest of the units weren’t quite there and let him down)
So it was kind of like a 6-6 team that under performed and was missing secondary people. Staff was changed a boat load of DBs were recruited including people like Luani and the greatest dB of all time Pippins, and with the solid DB coaching and improved scheme, holes filled and Falk taking the reigns with a mature o line it all came together in 2015.
Really if Leach had started with the 2015 staff in 2012 I think there wouldn’t have been a lul. I think we probably would have gone 3-5 wins in 2012 6-8 in 2013 and in 2014 hit 7-9.
I think the biggest things that hurt us was the lack of DBs, Russell special teams, and Breske’s blitz or bust defense with no DBs.
Got it sorted the talent clicked/matured and 9 wins in year 4.
So you try as hard as you can to get them up to speed as quickly as you can. It wasn’t some fall off a cliff change in the program it was just still bad, but the repetition and training was important for the next year that went 6-6.
Most first year is regression because it’s all new. Coaches, scheme. It’s all new. With Wulff it was like we were new to football the sport. Or like a division 2 team playing in the bcs. I never had seen anything like it.
So why the drop in 2014?
Because there were no DBs on the roster because Chris Ball didn’t recruit any DBs 1 year. Like zero, and Breske was weak on recruiting. So I blame him too.
We lost Rutgers barely and if you remember that game Tracy Clark opening play burned for a TD.
The Cal game was all kinds of stupid. Nevada just made us look soft. We were maybe a 6-6 team again if we were playing a little smarter and didn’t have the secondary gaps. And our special teams were terrible with so many missed kicks and blocks and just total shit from Coach Russell.
Despite the step back I thought Leach did great upgrading hires. Mele, Grinch, Manning were great upgrades and the secondary got shored up and defense improved.
Falk was calmer than Halliday (who I think was frustrated in 2014 season because he was ready to go but the rest of the units weren’t quite there and let him down)
So it was kind of like a 6-6 team that under performed and was missing secondary people. Staff was changed a boat load of DBs were recruited including people like Luani and the greatest dB of all time Pippins, and with the solid DB coaching and improved scheme, holes filled and Falk taking the reigns with a mature o line it all came together in 2015.
Really if Leach had started with the 2015 staff in 2012 I think there wouldn’t have been a lul. I think we probably would have gone 3-5 wins in 2012 6-8 in 2013 and in 2014 hit 7-9.
I think the biggest things that hurt us was the lack of DBs, Russell special teams, and Breske’s blitz or bust defense with no DBs.
Got it sorted the talent clicked/matured and 9 wins in year 4.
So.......it's ok for you to make excuses for Leach but when Ed or someone else tries to make excuses it's not ok? Duly noted.
The truth is that Wulff had built the team up to the point where we would have been a borderline bowl team every year. In 2012, Leach brought in a different attitude and there were games where the guys didn't show up......much like 2008 (only Leach is a better coach than Wulff so the dropoff wasn't as bad). The team dropped off. That 2013 team, consisting of a bunch of pretty decent players from the 2010 class and Leach's new guys made it to a bowl game, was a good indicator of what might have been if we kept Wulff.
Here's the deal.....and it's where you and I agree, even if you don't want to admit it.......finishing 6-7 isn't why WSU has a football program and it's not why we pay our coaches the salaries we do. Wulff was unlikely to ever do better than that so it doesn't matter if he's the worst coach ever or just the 5th worst.....he wasn't good enough. I think you guys are irrational in your hate of him, but the vast majority of us agree that we are better off with him gone.
Do you consider Logan Mayes a pac 10 player ? Was he a “contributor”?
I think Flat nailed it. It is hard to have a discussion with you because on one hand if we struggle this year it will be because lack of experience and breaking in a new dline qb and coaching staff. In 2008 we had zero experience at qb and one dt that had missed considerable time in 2008. Would I rather have long Paulo Cooper and pole to play dline and add a jc or would I rather have ahmu Matt e mullinix ? I would rather have the 2012 line. Would I rather have Tuel and Halliday at qb or lopina and Rogers ?
At receiver would I rather have Wilson Williams William Barton Myers and galvin? I probably would rather that group than the 2008 group.
No doubt ivory was a talented kid. But before we say he was a wasted talent at WSU he was always hurt or in trouble. He would have never played for leach. Ever . His last year he had less than 500 yards . And I would take the 2008 rbs over 2012.
Would I take 2008 line over fullingtin nfl Rodgers drafted , Jacobson Forbes spitz Goetz with Bosch and ecklund in the waiting . Then add flor Middleton and I think I would probably pick that group.
Is there a question in secondary ? I would probably take the 2008 linebackers but I would listen to an argument why I should take the 2012 linebackers .
57.5 average for top linebackers in 08' and 65.5 average tackles for 2012'......I'll take the higher number.
Ed + Flat,
CPW = solid to slightly below average Pac-12 coach
CML = great to above average Pac-12 coach
Would that be a fairly encompassing range for how each of you assess WSU's previous and current Head Football Coaches?
CPW = solid to slightly below average Pac-12 coach
CML = great to above average Pac-12 coach
Would that be a fairly encompassing range for how each of you assess WSU's previous and current Head Football Coaches?
CMP - above average Pac-12 coach.......but knew how to put together a great team once every three years.
CBD - average Pac-12 coach
CPW - below average Pac-12 coach
CML - above average Pac-12 coach
For CML to reach the status of "great", we need to win a conference title. For Wulff, I think he's firmly below average.....I just disagree with the sentiment that he was the worst ever. I do agree that the mess that he made of 2008 and 2009 was a disaster of the highest magnitude. He put himself in a hole that he was never going to get out of.
Wulff was the worst coach in school history, and one of the worst in conference history. Willingham and Gilbertson had better winning percentages at uw even though they both stunk.
There really isn't a debate. There are few dissenters that are disconnected from reality.
Can't believe I'm chiming in on this never ending train wreck, but maybe I can save the board 40 or 50 Tron and Ed volleys.
Agree on Price, and frankly he may have been a great or superior coach - but he had to dump WSU to go find his destiny before we were able to find out.
Doba, I'm going to agree here too. Maybe below average - but if he had not been let down by his lazy "Coug" staff we probably would have done just fine. Great, no. But maybe sustained solidness. He did bring us the Texas win - the biggest WSU Bowl victory since 1916.
Wulff - no. He was at best a poor Pac-12 coach, but I would say he was not a Pac-12 quality coach at all. Worst ever? Don't know, don't care. Ty going 0-12 at uw has to rank as one of the alltime worst jobs of coaching in the Pac-12 or anywhere.
Leach - good to very good Pac-12 coach. Superb, fantastic, great? Maybe. Hopefully we shall see over the next few years........
Oh, and a couple more:
Erickson - good pac-12 coach (and carpetbagging so and so). OSU might say great.
Walden - average to good Pac 12 coach. Rememberm, this was his first head coaching gig too and he was the 4th HC in 4 years. Record wasn't that great, but he had some good years and good teams and won some games we had no business winning in a period where we were soooo overmatched in talent and resources. Wonder how good the rump turn option offense would have been with USC-caliber backs and linemen.
Ok - thread over? Please?
Can't believe I'm chiming in on this never ending train wreck, but maybe I can save the board 40 or 50 Tron and Ed volleys.
Agree on Price, and frankly he may have been a great or superior coach - but he had to dump WSU to go find his destiny before we were able to find out.
Doba, I'm going to agree here too. Maybe below average - but if he had not been let down by his lazy "Coug" staff we probably would have done just fine. Great, no. But maybe sustained solidness. He did bring us the Texas win - the biggest WSU Bowl victory since 1916.
Wulff - no. He was at best a poor Pac-12 coach, but I would say he was not a Pac-12 quality coach at all. Worst ever? Don't know, don't care. Ty going 0-12 at uw has to rank as one of the alltime worst jobs of coaching in the Pac-12 or anywhere.
Leach - good to very good Pac-12 coach. Superb, fantastic, great? Maybe. Hopefully we shall see over the next few years........
Oh, and a couple more:
Erickson - good pac-12 coach (and carpetbagging so and so). OSU might say great.
Walden - average to good Pac 12 coach. Rememberm, this was his first head coaching gig too and he was the 4th HC in 4 years. Record wasn't that great, but he had some good years and good teams and won some games we had no business winning in a period where we were soooo overmatched in talent and resources. Wonder how good the rump turn option offense would have been with USC-caliber backs and linemen.
Ok - thread over? Please?
I'm fine with calling Wulff a "poor" Pac-12 coach. I would definitely not consider him good or average. I do believe that he could have made us a 5 to 6 win program and get us to bowl games every 2-3 years but frankly......that kind of sucks pretty fast. Look how quick 9-4 became a letdown.
Can't believe I'm chiming in on this never ending train wreck, but maybe I can save the board 40 or 50 Tron and Ed volleys.
Agree on Price, and frankly he may have been a great or superior coach - but he had to dump WSU to go find his destiny before we were able to find out.
Doba, I'm going to agree here too. Maybe below average - but if he had not been let down by his lazy "Coug" staff we probably would have done just fine. Great, no. But maybe sustained solidness. He did bring us the Texas win - the biggest WSU Bowl victory since 1916.
Wulff - no. He was at best a poor Pac-12 coach, but I would say he was not a Pac-12 quality coach at all. Worst ever? Don't know, don't care. Ty going 0-12 at uw has to rank as one of the alltime worst jobs of coaching in the Pac-12 or anywhere.
Leach - good to very good Pac-12 coach. Superb, fantastic, great? Maybe. Hopefully we shall see over the next few years........
Oh, and a couple more:
Erickson - good pac-12 coach (and carpetbagging so and so). OSU might say great.
Walden - average to good Pac 12 coach. Rememberm, this was his first head coaching gig too and he was the 4th HC in 4 years. Record wasn't that great, but he had some good years and good teams and won some games we had no business winning in a period where we were soooo overmatched in talent and resources. Wonder how good the rump turn option offense would have been with USC-caliber backs and linemen.
Ok - thread over? Please?
Read for comprehension. "Wulff was the worst coach in school history, and one of the worst in conference history."
For anyone that thinks Wulff was not the worst in school history, who was? Someone has to the be the worst.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_State_Cougars_football
One thing about attorneys - they think they are the smartest person in the room on any subject matter.
And re-read my post for comprehension before you quote it and disparage it.
Loyal said: "Worst ever? Don't know, don't care."
I'd argue that a guy like Al Kircher was a crappier coach than Wulff. His overall record wasn't as bad but when you look at how his team performed in year four, you have to give him credit for trying to make 2008 look good. We were shut out four times, gave up 50 points twice and gave up almost four times as many points as we scored. Seven of the ten teams we played had losing records or were within one loss of 0.500. Mediocrity all the way around and we managed to look bad against that schedule. The man took a bad program and made it worse in his time at WSU.
Sweeney went 2-19 in years 2 and 3 and had only 9 wins through his fourth year. He was fortunate that we didn't play 9 conference games and 12 game schedules without ties back then........because he would have had a very Wulffian schedule if we had. We had one good season in 1972 before gradually spiraling into the toilet. Sweeney is actually the reason why we absolutely had to dump Wulff. The parallels are strong enough that we didn't need to watch the team flounder with the hopes of getting one decent season.
You see guys like Gilbertson and Neuheisal at UW that could coach other people's players but the programs were dogsh!t when they left because they didn't know how to recruit and develop players. If you look at Oregon State, Dee Andros took a program that had been playing 0.500 or better football for a decade before he got there but went 7-25 in his last three seasons as he slowly buried the Beaver program. Joe Avezeeno went 6-47-2 in five years at OSU and is fortunate again that they didn't play modern schedules. You see guys like Walt Harris who got fired after two years because the program was collapsing so fast that they didn't get to year three and he followed up Buddy Teevens who managed to find mediocrity in what little that Ty Willingham had left for him to coach.
Wulff did badly enough as a coach that he deserves to be in the conversation for worst coach amongst those guys. He might be the worst, he might not be. Every school has a coach or coaches that sucked at their jobs. Given that every situation is unique, it's difficult to say who was the absolute worst. Regardless of where Wulff really falls, we're lucky that he's gone.
Wulff compliled the worst winning percentage in school history and the worst single season in school history. The only season his teams did not finish last in the conference or the North division was 2008, thanks to a winless Washington team.
As stated above, there are some dissenters that at not connected to reality.
"Borderline Bowl team" No. It was never a borderline bowl team it never reached a bowl ever.
I'm not making excuses for Leach. There is a difference between take the program and throw it off a cliff year 1 and build it up to a 4 win team.
And take a 4 win team and go 3 wins 6 wins 3 wins 9 wins.
Gigantic difference.
What did Wulff do his second year? 1 ****ing win. 1 win.
He averaged 12 points per game and allowed 38.5 ppg in year 2.
Leach in year 2? 31 ppg and allowed 32.5.
That's how big of a change Leach was able to get in year 2. And how Wulff went even FURTHER backwards in year 2.
Here's Doba ppg / allowed in 2007 and then Wulff in 2008/2009
2007 - ppg 25.7 / allowed 32.4
2008 - ppg 12.7 / allowed 43.8
2009 - ppg 12.0 / allowed 38.5
That's Doba then Wulff first 2 years.
Now Here's Wulff then Leach first 2 years.
2011 - 29.8 ppg / allowed 31.8
2012 - 20.4 ppg / allowed 33.7
2013 - 31 ppg / allowed 32.5 ppg
Now compare apples to apples
Wulff 2nd year - 12 ppg / allowed 38.5
Leach 2nd year - 31 ppg / allowed 32.5 ppg
That is the difference.
You are saying Wulff was going to take us to a bowl game WHICH HE NEVER DID. HE NEVER accomplished that. EVER. He didn't even win 5 games in a season. Not even 5 games once.
And no he wouldn't have taken us to a bowl game because Leach brought in better caliber players of which Wulff NEVER would have gotten. Gabe Marks / Vince Mayle etc. aren't coming to play for Paul Wulff.
In fact in 2012 when Mora, Todd Graham, Rich Rod, Kiffin, Sark, Shaw, Tedford etc. how would Wulff out recruit any of them? How? A bunch of hyped up new coaches or you can go to the ole 9-40 to go play. PLEASE.
Nobody was going to come to WSU because I can tell you exactly what those coaches would say to a recruit considering WSU.
WHY GO PLAY FOR A GUY WHO HAS BEEN THERE 4 YEARS AND NOT TAKE YOU TO A BOWL GAME. YOUR COLLEGE CAREER IS SHORT DON'T WASTE IT ON A NO BOWL SINKHOLE.
And that's ALL it would take.
Wulff dug himself a grave, and only really really dumb people would ignore that fact. There was no "future bowl game" with Wulff. There was no way for him to compete in recruiting because he painted himself as a no bowl 4 win maximum Pac-12 coach there were way better exciting options in 2012.
Leach with his pedigree and the updated facilities saved our recruiting reputation, and now we are pulling in better and better players as we build.
There was none of that happening with Wulff no matter how much you want to try and convince yourself.
No competitive prospect is going to go play up in Pullman for a 4 win 9-40 4 year coach, period.
This may not go well.
WALDEN WAS TRASH!
IN WHAT DELUDED WORLD DO YOU LIVE IN WHERE A GUY WHO WENT 69-112 IN HIS CAREER AND WON ONLY A LITTLE OVER A THIRD OF HIS GAMES IS SOME "GOOD COACH".
HE IS THE WORST COACH IN THE HISTORY OF THE PROGRAM. PERIOD. THAT'S HIS LEGACY.
Yay! I rest your case. I for one will now agree that Wulff was our worst coach ever, I was surprised that the "Smilin' Irishman" was as bad as the record shows. Funny that he went on to do pretty well at Fresno State.
Perhaps that illustrates the Peter Principle that we spoke of in another thread. In sports you don't rise to that highest level of incompetency and stay there. No, you get fired. Wulff should have stayed at Eastern. Sweeney went back to the level that he should have (stayed?) at.
Walden was only the 8th worst WSU coach ever. or 11th best.
Speaking of Peter, same with Paul Graham and Ken Bone on the BB side. Graham, Mr. "I wear Armani suits because I can (he actually said that)" never should have been a major college coach. In hindsight we probably should have kept Bone for awhile, but his lack of chances since then says that he should have stayed at PSU.
So, this will end any future posts, threads, references, avatars or footer pictures that mention CPW or CJW. I'm quite happy about this.
Tron,
I think the Flat-Loyal-Ed crew gives CJW credit for:
1. Winning multiple Apple Cups at a time when UW was successful.
2. Conceptualizing and executing the transfer of the Apple Cup from Spokane to Pullman.
3. Donating six figures of his own money to WSU
4. Providing a certain “folksy charm” to Cougar Football radio broadcasts.
Those things, both individually and as a group, mean quite a bit to a lot of people who love WSU.
I think the Flat-Loyal-Ed crew gives CJW credit for:
1. Winning multiple Apple Cups at a time when UW was successful.
2. Conceptualizing and executing the transfer of the Apple Cup from Spokane to Pullman.
3. Donating six figures of his own money to WSU
4. Providing a certain “folksy charm” to Cougar Football radio broadcasts.
Those things, both individually and as a group, mean quite a bit to a lot of people who love WSU.
You can get that from other people plenty of people do those things and aren’t blowhards who tell us who to hire and try to prop up the worst coach in the history of the program.
Every single thing you listed except for his 3-6 Apple Cup Record has NOTHING to do with coaching. NOTHING.
He was 0-4 his first 4 Apple Cups and 2-4 his first six years. Leach is 1-5.
100k donation is a donation anyone can donate. And as I said the guy OWES us money for paying him for so long when his overall results were poor.
Conceptualizing and executing Apple Cup to Pullman from Spokane? The game was always going to end up in Pullman. What did people think it was never going to come to Pullman? As if somehow the University would never grow. We’ve played the Apple Cup in Pullman before Jim Walden and we played it after too. The reality is Jim Walden took credit for crap he didn’t even do. He was just the coach during that time.
Martin Stadium was going to be built. The semester was going to be moved like everyone else.
That’s like Leach taking credit for the FOB building. Well I came here and I told them we needed one and they built it because I said so.
Albi was going to be a temporary place and honestly I believe they intentionally burnt the old fields at Idaho and in Pullman to make it so people had to go to Albi until the stadiums were replaced. Which was the plan all along.
So Walden stamps his feet about Albi and wants the game in Pullman blah blah blah... it was all just an act they were gonna do it anyway.
The semesters synched and then it made no sense to use Albi anymore. Albi was always the temp solution until the new solution was in place on campus. Walden (as typical was just the bullsh*ttee). Again all this has nothing to do with coaching.
“Folksy Charm” - Sarah Palin has “folksy charm” , and that doesn’t mean I need to listen to that dumb ho. If you want “folksy charm” buy the box set of he-haw. Again that has ZERO to do with actual coaching.
So.....according to you......anyone can donate $100k? When are you mailing in your check?
You really believe that WSU and Idaho colluded to burn down their own stadiums?
As far as playing in Pullman, your rant reveals your ignorance of WSU football history. Take a look at this LINK and count the number of times that WSU played in Spokane long before the stadium burned down. Here's a quick list of the number of games in Pullman from 1950 to 1960 with the total number of games in parenthesis:
1950: 3 (9)
1951: 3 (10)
1952: 3 (10)
1953: 2 (10)
1954: 3 (10)
1955: 3 (10)
1956: 3 (10)
1957: 3 (10)
1958: 2 (10)
1959: 2 (10)
1960: 2 (10)
We played 14 games in Spokane in that same stretch. Martin Stadium re-opened in 1972.......here is the list of games in Pullman after that:
1972: 4 (11)
1973: 3 (11)
1974: 3 (11)
1975: 3 (11)
1976: 3 (11)
1977: 3 (11)
1978: 3 (11)
1979: 3 (11)
1980: 4 (11)
1981: 4 (11) - only included regular season games
1982: 4 (11)
1983: 4 (11)
1984: 5 (11)
1985: 5 (11)
1986: 6 (11)
In the decades before Walden, WSU only played 2-3 games per year at home. Outside of 1972.....the year that Martin Stadium reopened, we were only playing 3 games at home with us playing 1-3 games in Spokane. It took Walden several years to convince the powers that be to quit that practice. If you don't think that Walden was instrumental in providing you the opportunity to watch somewhere between 5 and 7 games in Martin Stadium every year.....you aren't paying attention.
Walden is a blowhard who takes too much credit and there are undoubtedly other people who were involved and important in the change as well, but Walden was a huge part of it, whether you like it or not. One other thing about Walden, he led WSU to bowl eligibility 3 out of 4 years at one point. That's pretty good for a guy who couldn't coach.
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One final comment about Wulff and then I'll step away from this thread. First, I've always said that I don't think that Wulff is a "good" coach and I've always said that he needed to be fired. Where you guys fail.....and I know that you don't believe this......is that you obsess about the overall record and can't see the bigger picture.
Wulff really was told by the leadership at WSU to clean up the program. With Doba distracted by his wife's health issues, there was a lack of discipline and serious drug use amongst the players on the team, at least from the perception of the WSU leadership. He felt that the directive from his boss was to purge the team of bad actors regardless of the cost on the win tallies. I know this because I heard it straight from the horse's mouth. Now, did he make it worse than he "needed" to? Probably. Did he have a legitimate plan to make WSU a conference championship contender? I don't believe he did.
When you look at the 2011 team and how it performed......and then contrast it with how the team performed in 2012 and 2014, either Leach is not nearly as good of a gameday coach as you think he is, or Wulff was actually starting to bring the program back up out of the depths and was starting to get a system in place. That 2013 bowl team was loaded with guys recruited by Wulff. I don't believe that Wulff was a "good" coach and he needed to be fired, but looking at his record alone fails to capture what was going on during his tenure. His discipline wasn't good enough and he failed to instill a winning culture in the way that Leach has done, but he was a guy who was hired to do some dirty work and he did it. I don't believe that he was ever going to get us to a championship, but he was a very Sweeney type of coach. I mean that as both a compliment and an insult.
When I see bad coaches at WSU, I see the ones that took a good situation and made it bad and left the program in ruins. Kevin Eastman and Ken Bone are examples on the basketball side. As I mentioned before, Kircher took a program that was running around 0.500 and buried us by year four. I view the guys like that more negatively than I do a guy like Wulff who was given a task and did it, even if he did it poorly at times. Wulff deserves to be considered one of our worst coaches ever for the way 2008-10 played out and he might be our worst coach ever, but when you look at the bigger picture, it isn't a clear as a simpleton like Tron would like to paint it.
Wulff really was told by the leadership at WSU to clean up the program. With Doba distracted by his wife's health issues, there was a lack of discipline and serious drug use amongst the players on the team, at least from the perception of the WSU leadership. He felt that the directive from his boss was to purge the team of bad actors regardless of the cost on the win tallies. I know this because I heard it straight from the horse's mouth. Now, did he make it worse than he "needed" to? Probably. Did he have a legitimate plan to make WSU a conference championship contender? I don't believe he did.
When you look at the 2011 team and how it performed......and then contrast it with how the team performed in 2012 and 2014, either Leach is not nearly as good of a gameday coach as you think he is, or Wulff was actually starting to bring the program back up out of the depths and was starting to get a system in place. That 2013 bowl team was loaded with guys recruited by Wulff. I don't believe that Wulff was a "good" coach and he needed to be fired, but looking at his record alone fails to capture what was going on during his tenure. His discipline wasn't good enough and he failed to instill a winning culture in the way that Leach has done, but he was a guy who was hired to do some dirty work and he did it. I don't believe that he was ever going to get us to a championship, but he was a very Sweeney type of coach. I mean that as both a compliment and an insult.
When I see bad coaches at WSU, I see the ones that took a good situation and made it bad and left the program in ruins. Kevin Eastman and Ken Bone are examples on the basketball side. As I mentioned before, Kircher took a program that was running around 0.500 and buried us by year four. I view the guys like that more negatively than I do a guy like Wulff who was given a task and did it, even if he did it poorly at times. Wulff deserves to be considered one of our worst coaches ever for the way 2008-10 played out and he might be our worst coach ever, but when you look at the bigger picture, it isn't a clear as a simpleton like Tron would like to paint it.
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