Duck board...
- Thread starter 79COUG
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UO fans learned their arrogance from the best.... the uw fans.
Yea, I saw that too 702. Made me chuckle. I think Dye is still looking for his jockstrap after the overated Borghi juked him out of it last time they were up here...
I dont think Max has scratched the surface of what he can do. I think he could be a 1,000+ PAC 12 yard back. Not a 1,000 yards counting non conference yards against FCS or G5 teams. A legit 1,000+ yards against BCS teams.
Over rated? No. Under used? Yes.
I would love to see MB get 25 carries against the UO.
Over rated? No. Under used? Yes.
I would love to see MB get 25 carries against the UO.
Borghi is out for the year and likely his playing days at WSU are finished. He'll be playing on Sundays next year.
He may be out this year but unless you have some sort of insider knowledge, highly doubtful he’d leave after this year if out with an injury. We saw how that type of decision played out with JW. If he’d been playing this year and tore up the conference, that would be a different discussion.
While he probably has enough film as a pass catcher, what film does he have as a ball carrier????
I feel like he has an enormous amount of potential but has minimal production as a carrier.
And he misses a season but is ready to leave early???? I wouldnt advise it.
The last two guys that left early made poor decisions and vastly over rated their ability.
Not to mention as a pass blocker. In the Air Raid, the back always was the outlet valve. They never stayed in to block. McIntosh had several nice pickups against OSU.
Petros likes the sound of his own voice a bit too much, and he is very uncomfortable with silence. I can't imagine having to live with him. Petros's comments re: the back staying in to block simply show his lack of understanding of both the R&S and the Air Raid.
Have you looked at the skill set required to be an NFL running back? I love Borghi as a collegiate player, but the NFL demands running backs have either between the tackle power or elite speed. Max has neither of those, at the NFL level, anyway.
Of course they stayed in to block, but it was not much and it was not long. Unless it was immediate, they drifted out.
As I’m sure you already know, he did not. Receptions were limited to our four starting wideouts per box score on ESPN.
Morrow, Wicks, Williams, and Borghi seem to be cut from the same cloth - third down backs. For the first time we will see whether Max has more in his repertoire.
According to this air raid analysis, backs do stay in to block in certain blitz situations, but since you blitz against the "air raid" at your peril, it is a rarity in a drop 7 or 8 defensive environment. So Petros is not entirely wrong. But in fairness to him, I don't think he meant "never ever." "Rarely" probably would have been the better word.
Air Raid Offense Series: Understanding Defense and Offensive Line Play
The Air Raid is just like any other offense — it all starts up front.
www.underdogdynasty.com
Borghi is light years better than the other 3. It's really not even close.
I have no insider knowledge. But comparing Borghi to JW is laughable. JW was never a Sunday player. With Borghi, it's been obvious he is since he showed up on campus.
Rolovich kind of handed them the free opportunity to speculate with the 32 player comment. He's also going to "hand" them the opportunity to speculate why they lost to the Cougs after the game this weekend.
I’m not comparing their skillset, I’m comparing the idea of a WSU player (JW was a RB yes) who makes a poor decision to leave school early. Is Max a better NFL prospect than JW was? Yes. Would the result of Max leaving after this year be the same...more than likely. A RB like Max wouldn’t get drafted after being out an entire season with an injury. He’d probably test well and get invited to a camp as a FA but that’s a long shot. He’s not going to leave.
Morrow was a better RB than Williams, he averaged nearly 6.5 a carry from his Soph-Senior year. Even his ypc, receiving was 2+ yards on average better than Williams. He should have been utilized much more. Not saying Morrow was NFL caliber (lacked speed/size), but he was a very good college back that should have been used as the primary back rather than sharing so much time with Williams and Wicks.
James Williams definitely had the talent to play on Sundays. What he didn't have was the overall package of talent, mental acumen, work ethic and will power that it takes to play in the NFL. The thing that makes Borghi different than someone like Williams is attitude and work ethic as much as raw talent. Borghi's running style is something that he has honed by watching others and working at it, not just relying on athleticism. My wife and I are big fans of JW and we were hoping that he would stick someplace and he hasn't. The fact that Williams was signed and cut by Winnipeg says that he never had a shot at the NFL whether he stayed another year or not.
I do agree that getting hurt has probably ensured that we get Borghi next year. He's a smart kid and will look at the big picture and not just the short term.
Agree. He has proven nothing as a ball carrier. He is coming off injury. Those things dont scream NFL pick. He needs either a big year or two big years to really drive his NFL stock.
Also, I think he can do it.
Disagree 100% on his mental aspect. Williams had the mental acumen and work ethic, he overcame a ton just to even get to WSU (injuries/torn ACL senior year and family/homeless). He always worked hard and that determination drove his NFL ambitions.
His problem with the NFL was that he just wasn't that great of a running back. A very good pass catcher, but he wasn't very good as an every down back. He had good open field vision, but never good vision within the tackle box. Jamal Morrow had good vision in the box that made him a good college RB, but he lacked the 40 time for the NFL. Myles Gaskin who came out the same year as Williams also had excellent vision in the box.
In other words, Williams really was an APB, all purpose back who just didn't have an nfl level skill set.
Not to mention RB is the least valued position in the NFL. Supply-There’s tons of good RBs to be had, and they have a shelf life of about 3 years. Aside from physical freaks like AP or Barkley, most teams aren’t looking for a starting caliber back until at least the third round. So for a college guy coming out you’ve got to thread the needle of your performance and draftability vs wear and tear on your body. Ideally whether a Sr or undergrad, you are coming off of a huge year...and then maybe you get drafted 3rd-6th round depending on how well you test.
This is exactly why any RB who will get drafted should leave early. The shelf life is already so short, why waste a year of it in college not making money?
Equal to Morrow, not as good as Williams, way better then Wicks.
The only way Borghi better than Morrow, is Borghi a better blocker.
Morrow is shiftier, slightly better pass catcher.
Borghi has better power, blocking.
No way Borghi either runs thru 11 tacklers, or makes 11 tacklers miss, when caught DEAD to rights, STOPPED BEHIND the line of scrimmage, and gains about 17 to 29 yards, and a TD, on about a 2nd, 3rd down and 13 yards to go, vs the Ducks, like Williams did. Even NFL backs would have a hard time doing that whether in College, NFL.
Williams is better then Borghi.
Only reason why Borghi probably get to NFL, over Williams:
1. Borghi is smart enough to stay.
2. Borghi is a more determined, power back.
3. Borghi is a better blocker.
4. Borghi and williams are both good at pass catching.
Borghi is great, great in College, and will probably get to the NFL, but you are overhyping Borghi, as he isnt as great as you think.
Williams signed initially as an undrafted free agent with the KC Chiefs who thought he could possibly be at least a special teams contributor. But he was one of the first cuts of the training camp allegedly, in part, because he had trouble learning the complex playbook of Andy Reid. But when he failed to stick in a couple of other camps, it became more clear that he wasn't quite talented enough compared to other pro running backs to make the NFL. James worked hard and got himself in position to draw interest by pro teams but it was probably a long shot to begin with....even had he stayed at WSU for another year. By contrast, Borghi seems to have a lot more going for him in terms of projection. I think and hope he needs to play another year to prove it to NFL teams.
Glad Cougar
Glad Cougar
Depends on the back and where you might get drafted. If you are a Barkley or other high projected pick. Absolutely, hell leave after your sophomore year. If you are fringe draftable, no - see if you can throw up a big year to raise your stock and finish your degree. Max is the latter, he isn’t going anywhere.
You are smoking rocks.
That is one play for Williams. One play does not make a career.
His previous yrs he went down by just blowing on him. Never should have taken reps away from Wicks or Morrow.
When I said mental acumen and work ethic, I was thinking of the comments like those above about him struggling with the Chiefs playbook. A guy like JW who leaves early needs to work harder than everyone else, not just as hard as everyone else. Fair or not, when a guy leaves early and it's not expected, the perception that they couldn't handle college classes and weren't willing to put in the time comes into play. I'm a fan of JW and I think he'd be good if he was given the chance, but it's also true that the running back position is saturated with guys like JW who have decent talent, speed and agility. It's hard to be truly "special" at the position. Frankly, Jamal Morrow was a better back overall than Williams and he isn't in the NFL either. It's a tough business.
Not singling out anyone here, particularly since many aren't doing it, but our fans, like many others, overestimate our players' NFL prospects frequently. The NFL is ruthless and places a great deal of emphasis on measurables, only some of which can be improved at all, and even then only in part, with everyone else working to improve them as well. People underestimate how much talent these other programs are churning out. It's a self-perpetuating cycle, where these other programs are loaded with recruits with NFL genes, they get drafted and have some pan out in the NFL, then tout that they "get players to the NFL" in order to help them recruit even more guys with NFL genes. There are a few exceptions out there in which programs have been able to get lower-rated recruits to the NFL disproportionately (like Utah with DBs), but that pretty much is the game.
The vast majority of the time, WSU instead is going to be landing recruits who are not NFL material but helping them maximize their talent and, as a benefit of having them often not NFL-level talents, stick around and produce at a high level as upperclassmen. It sucks when these guys leave school early to play in the NFL when they don't make it. That's what Leach didn't like with Williams' decision, although in fairness to Williams, there isn't much more he could have shown as a senior to change his status, either.
It's pretty simple with Williams: he just isn't quite good enough. If the threshold is a "90" on a variety of metrics to make a 53-man roster as a RB, he's somewhere in the 80s on many of them, with some aspects more in the high 70s. Very good, and right on the cusp -- not to mention being a great kid who worked really hard, and who I don't begrudge for trying to provide for his family -- but just not enough to be a RB in the NFL. There are just too many guys like him pumped out every year. It's tempting to watch apparent stiffs who seem to stick around in the NFL despite not being that good, like some of the recycled backup QBs, etc., but in addition to that sometimes just being a product of circumstances in some cases, those guys usually are better than it seems. We're just used to analyzing them relative to the complete freak athletes in the NFL rather than taking good college players' performances against other college kids and making (flawed) projections about what they can do in the NFL.
The vast majority of the time, WSU instead is going to be landing recruits who are not NFL material but helping them maximize their talent and, as a benefit of having them often not NFL-level talents, stick around and produce at a high level as upperclassmen. It sucks when these guys leave school early to play in the NFL when they don't make it. That's what Leach didn't like with Williams' decision, although in fairness to Williams, there isn't much more he could have shown as a senior to change his status, either.
It's pretty simple with Williams: he just isn't quite good enough. If the threshold is a "90" on a variety of metrics to make a 53-man roster as a RB, he's somewhere in the 80s on many of them, with some aspects more in the high 70s. Very good, and right on the cusp -- not to mention being a great kid who worked really hard, and who I don't begrudge for trying to provide for his family -- but just not enough to be a RB in the NFL. There are just too many guys like him pumped out every year. It's tempting to watch apparent stiffs who seem to stick around in the NFL despite not being that good, like some of the recycled backup QBs, etc., but in addition to that sometimes just being a product of circumstances in some cases, those guys usually are better than it seems. We're just used to analyzing them relative to the complete freak athletes in the NFL rather than taking good college players' performances against other college kids and making (flawed) projections about what they can do in the NFL.
No reason not to love Max Borghi as a college running back, great kid and Coug, but only three Cougar RBs have been drafted in the first 6 rounds of the draft since 1976, Broussard, Mayes and Harrison, i.e. the absolute elite. Before you start talking about the "kids" NFL prospects, I thought you guys needed a cold dose of reality.
I read some preseason website that had Borghi listed at the 8th best RB in college football, but that was before his injury.
Morrow is one of those kids that maxed out what he could do. Look at the improvement between his freshman year and the rest of his time at WSU. He may not have had NFL measureables, but he wasn't THAT far off. His productivity shot up after he decided to attack holes and defenders instead of trying to finesse around them. He just would've had a harder time running through NFL tackles.
