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EWU raises tuition...

79COUG

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Beginning this fall tuition in Cheney increases 2.4%. Students are upset. Ballsy move by the admins out there.
 
Until the kids walk away they will do what they want. When the customers leave schools over in person prices for online classes you will see schools scramble and close.

This may be the most influence students have ever had over the price of their education.

As a business you can only offer people the same or less while raising your price for so long. They will shop you against other schools and leave.

Imo, this is not a time to increase revenue by raising prices. If I were the president of a university.... I am getting as many students as possible. This is about customer acquisition. The more customers you have, the more $ you’ll have, the more likely you’ll make it through the pandemic. If you wanna raise prices, offer less for the money, dont be surprised when your customers leave and you’re closing your doors or begging the state for a bailout.

There is not an endless supply of students/customers. You cant afford to lose the ones you have or lose the potential customers out there. Not now anyways.
 
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Until the kids walk away they will do what they want. When the customers leave schools over in person prices for online classes you will see schools scramble and close.

This may be the most influence students have ever had over the price of their education.

As a business you can only offer people the same or less while raising your price for so long. They will shop you against other schools and leave.

Imo, this is not a time to increase revenue by raising prices. If I were the president of a university.... I am getting as many students as possible. This is about customer acquisition. The more customers you have, the more $ you’ll have, the more likely you’ll make it through the pandemic. If you wanna raise prices, offer less for the money, dont be surprised when your customers leave and you’re closing your doors or begging the state for a bailout.

There is not an endless supply of students/customers. You cant afford to lose the ones you have or lose the potential customers out there. Not now anyways.
In an interview the president said "we have bonds coming due and we still have bills to pay. Costs are going up for us. We really have no choice. The students are still getting a quality education."
All of that may be true however timing is everything and their timing is bad on this one. Maybe that little dick alumni Colin Cowherd will give them a nice, fat endowment? Nawwwww........
 
In an interview the president said "we have bonds coming due and we still have bills to pay. Costs are going up for us. We really have no choice. The students are still getting a quality education."
All of that may be true however timing is everything and their timing is bad on this one. Maybe that little dick alumni Colin Cowherd will give them a nice, fat endowment? Nawwwww........

Customers dont care.
 
Until the kids walk away they will do what they want. When the customers leave schools over in person prices for online classes you will see schools scramble and close.

This may be the most influence students have ever had over the price of their education.

As a business you can only offer people the same or less while raising your price for so long. They will shop you against other schools and leave.

Imo, this is not a time to increase revenue by raising prices. If I were the president of a university.... I am getting as many students as possible. This is about customer acquisition. The more customers you have, the more $ you’ll have, the more likely you’ll make it through the pandemic. If you wanna raise prices, offer less for the money, dont be surprised when your customers leave and you’re closing your doors or begging the state for a bailout.

There is not an endless supply of students/customers. You cant afford to lose the ones you have or lose the potential customers out there. Not now anyways.

Agree here.

And I'm pleasantly surprised WSU hasn't done this either.
 
Until the kids walk away they will do what they want. When the customers leave schools over in person prices for online classes you will see schools scramble and close.

This may be the most influence students have ever had over the price of their education.

As a business you can only offer people the same or less while raising your price for so long. They will shop you against other schools and leave.

Imo, this is not a time to increase revenue by raising prices. If I were the president of a university.... I am getting as many students as possible. This is about customer acquisition. The more customers you have, the more $ you’ll have, the more likely you’ll make it through the pandemic. If you wanna raise prices, offer less for the money, dont be surprised when your customers leave and you’re closing your doors or begging the state for a bailout.

There is not an endless supply of students/customers. You cant afford to lose the ones you have or lose the potential customers out there. Not now anyways.

WSU's online tuition is the same as their in-person tuition. I suspect that most of the industry has gone the same route (but too lazy to check) since the degree you walk away with still says "WSU" and not "WSU online", like its Phoenix University or some such.
 
WSU's online tuition is the same as their in-person tuition. I suspect that most of the industry has gone the same route (but too lazy to check) since the degree you walk away with still says "WSU" and not "WSU online", like its Phoenix University or some such.

Did you get to use the library? Were you able to use office hours of your profs?

There are a lot of things that go along with being in person. It isnt the same opportunity. You have limited use of facilities. What you are paying for and what you are getting isnt the same.

There will be a haircut for a lot of schools.
 
Did you get to use the library? Were you able to use office hours of your profs?

There are a lot of things that go along with being in person. It isnt the same opportunity. You have limited use of facilities. What you are paying for and what you are getting isnt the same.

There will be a haircut for a lot of schools.
hey dipshit, I didn't set the policy. I wasn't doing backflips over the fact that I got less resources, I'm just telling it how it is. Simmer down.
 
WSU's online tuition is the same as their in-person tuition. I suspect that most of the industry has gone the same route (but too lazy to check) since the degree you walk away with still says "WSU" and not "WSU online", like its Phoenix University or some such.
WSU is acutely aware of issues around tuition. The increase was discussed at every level before it went forward. It did go forward for a few reasons. One...it’s either 2.5% now, or 5% as soon as Covid passes. Increases are all but pre-programmed to keep up with expenses, and skipping one means catching up later after some deficit spending.
Two, the university is spending huge amounts of money in a very short time to be able to teach online, and to improve the ability to do it. Retraining faculty, buying document cameras, microphones, web cams, and upgrading technology costs a ton. Add to that the expenses incurred to stockpile disinfectants and hand sanitizer, etc. while prepping to return to face to face instruction...which was the plan into August. These were unplanned expenses incurred while cuts were already being made, so the hole is much deeper now. They have to get a little revenue to fill it.

There are a lot more complications and politics, but in the end WSU knows that they haven’t seen the bottom yet - enrollment is going to drop next year, and so is the budget. The truly difficult decisions haven’t even come up yet, they’re a year to three away...and that’s if Covid fades soon. So increases are not only maintained because they’re pre-programmed, but they’re necessary to try and reduce the damage that’s just around the corner.
 
Until the kids walk away they will do what they want. When the customers leave schools over in person prices for online classes you will see schools scramble and close.

This may be the most influence students have ever had over the price of their education.

As a business you can only offer people the same or less while raising your price for so long. They will shop you against other schools and leave.

Imo, this is not a time to increase revenue by raising prices. If I were the president of a university.... I am getting as many students as possible. This is about customer acquisition. The more customers you have, the more $ you’ll have, the more likely you’ll make it through the pandemic. If you wanna raise prices, offer less for the money, dont be surprised when your customers leave and you’re closing your doors or begging the state for a bailout.

There is not an endless supply of students/customers. You cant afford to lose the ones you have or lose the potential customers out there. Not now anyways.
My kids won't graduate HS for another 15 years, but I'm preparing for a future in which college is no longer a required pit stop for people who want desk jobs. University education has jumped the shark for two dozen different reasons and is not sustainable on its current trajectory. As a former hiring manager, the diploma has ceased to be a resume differentiator for me. For our work, I would sooner consider someone who can demonstrate exceptional VBA and math skills than someone with a diploma.

PS I love that the EWU fellow explains that it's "costs" as if they are a charity rather than a business which must sell a service to its customers. Let the Boston Consulting Group comb through their balance sheet and trim some fat...
 
My kids won't graduate HS for another 15 years, but I'm preparing for a future in which college is no longer a required pit stop for people who want desk jobs. University education has jumped the shark for two dozen different reasons and is not sustainable on its current trajectory. As a former hiring manager, the diploma has ceased to be a resume differentiator for me. For our work, I would sooner consider someone who can demonstrate exceptional VBA and math skills than someone with a diploma.

PS I love that the EWU fellow explains that it's "costs" as if they are a charity rather than a business which must sell a service to its customers. Let the Boston Consulting Group comb through their balance sheet and trim some fat...

Higher ed has treated its customers as a way to get fat and happy while their customers go broke or deep into life course crippling debt. Then they raise costs???? **** them. They can take a hair cut on their salaries.

You dont need to be paid $3m to coach football or $500k to be an AD or $200k to do whatever at a university.

Colleges have been a gravy train for a long time on the kids dollars and debt. Things are gonna change in a hurry. We will find out which schools have real business people leading them when it’s time to take colleges in a new direction or get students back on campus.

Why pay for campus fees when your education is online???
 
If my younger self knew what I know now, I would've done things differently, regarding college.

College is basically paying a lot of money for a university's own LinkedIn network.
 
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If my younger self knew what I know now, I would've done things differently, regarding college.

College is basically paying a lot of money for a university's own LinkedIn network.

I would have been an art major. Maybe vet school with an emphasis in lizards. Or even agriculture. Art, lizards, farming are all way cooler than what I got my degree in.
 
I would have been an art major. Maybe vet school with an emphasis in lizards. Or even agriculture. Art, lizards, farming are all way cooler than what I got my degree in.
I would have never broke up with that little hottie I was dating in Bellevue that worked for Greg McCaw when he was developing the first cell phone. She and his other 10 or so employees became instant millionaires when he sold out to Motorola.
 
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If my younger self knew what I know now, I would've done things differently, regarding college.

College is basically paying a lot of money for a university's own LinkedIn network.

There were other, shall we say, 'fringe benefits' of going to college.
 
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Higher ed has treated its customers as a way to get fat and happy while their customers go broke or deep into life course crippling debt. Then they raise costs???? **** them. They can take a hair cut on their salaries.

You dont need to be paid $3m to coach football or $500k to be an AD or $200k to do whatever at a university.

Colleges have been a gravy train for a long time on the kids dollars and debt. Things are gonna change in a hurry. We will find out which schools have real business people leading them when it’s time to take colleges in a new direction or get students back on campus.

Why pay for campus fees when your education is online???
Forgive the long post/quotations, but I think Germany and some other engineering powers provide a great example for what will hopefully come next. This from a recent episode of the EconTalk podcast with guest Robert Lerner:
You have...excellent [apprenticeship] programs that start at relatively young ages, could be 15, 16. And, they combine coursework with on-the-job learning, but the on-the-job learning has what we might call dual production. It's the production of skills along with the production at the workplace. So, they're helping contribute to output at the same time. The apprenticeships in the United States have traditionally been in the trades, especially the building trades, construction; and they start at a much older age. Typically, U.S. apprenticeships start at the age of 26, 27, 28. Whereas in those European countries, where apprenticeship is robust, they start in late high school...

[T]he apprenticeships in Europe last two to four years, sometimes five--depends on the occupation. The wages are often somewhere around 50% of what a skilled worker would make, but in Switzerland, when they start young, it's 20%. So, think of a skilled worker maybe getting $20-$22 an hour, and the apprentice is getting $4 an hour. But, that's more than they would get sitting in a classroom; and they're getting a lot of investment by the company in their skill.
After acknowledging that roughly 10x more Europeans are in apprenticeships than Americans, they add:
[W]hen somebody becomes a Doctor in a small town in Germany, people don't really pay much attention. But if somebody becomes a Meister, which is that next step--you first become a journeyman where you've completed your apprenticeship--but then it's like the Ph.D. of that occupation--when you become a Meister, your picture is in the paper. Everybody in the village knows about it. And, that level of respect is just prominent. So, absolutely, it's something to admire.
And:
[T]here's been...received wisdom in the United States that "everyone should go to college." This strikes me as a really bad idea--for many, many reasons. One of which is: College isn't for everyone. Not everyone is good at what we call college or the skills that one typically acquires in college. As we have pushed more and more people to college through both subsidies in the lending market and in the actual provision of state schooling and so on, we've encouraged people to study things that are not particularly productive. That's not the only reason to go to college, of course, but it is encouraged because the proportion of the population is so much larger.
Seems to beat a bunch of people with online sociology degrees, or kids who studied "business" at a state school but can't read a P&L, can't work with macros and can't write copy to save their lives.

LINK
 
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Forgive the long post/quotations, but I think Germany and some other engineering powers provide a great example for what will hopefully come next. This from a recent episode of the EconTalk podcast with guest Robert Lerner:

After acknowledging that roughly 10x more Europeans are in apprenticeships than Americans, they add:

And:

Seems to beat a bunch of people with online sociology degrees, or kids who studied "business" at a state school but can't read a P&L, can't work with macros and can't write copy to save their lives.

LINK

“Work” in America has changed. Kids dont wanna get their hands dirty or work long hours or work weekends. They have been taught that tech, office work, 9-5 and a college degree is the only way.

I do not need a college degree for what I do. In fact, if I had started my current job right out of high school I would likely be retiring in my mid 40’s. But I didnt. So now I have to work my ass off for 20 years.
 
Forgive the long post/quotations, but I think Germany and some other engineering powers provide a great example for what will hopefully come next. This from a recent episode of the EconTalk podcast with guest Robert Lerner:

After acknowledging that roughly 10x more Europeans are in apprenticeships than Americans, they add:

And:

Seems to beat a bunch of people with online sociology degrees, or kids who studied "business" at a state school but can't read a P&L, can't work with macros and can't write copy to save their lives.

LINK
There's no money to be made from that system. Makes a ton of sense to have it, but yeah...

You can still apprenticeship to be get an architect license in WA. Not sure what other programs may be out there.
 
There's no money to be made from that system. Makes a ton of sense to have it, but yeah...

You can still apprenticeship to be get an architect license in WA. Not sure what other programs may be out there.
Do you mean there is no money if you cut the middle man (college) out of the equation with everyone apprenticing? Certainly there are still trades - esp in the sciences - where it makes sense to focus most or all on classroom time. But clearly the pendulum has swung too far.

Even when I was in college (90s/00s), I was really there "figuring it out." Can you imagine peeling $100 out of your wallet every day for 4 years and handing it to some administrator while you "figure it out" anymore? Every state school grad I know who went in the 70s and 80s was there getting their law or engineering degree; most kids I meet now have BMW-car-payment-level student debt and are thinking about changing their focus...
 
Do you mean there is no money if you cut the middle man (college) out of the equation with everyone apprenticing? Certainly there are still trades - esp in the sciences - where it makes sense to focus most or all on classroom time. But clearly the pendulum has swung too far.

Even when I was in college (90s/00s), I was really there "figuring it out." Can you imagine peeling $100 out of your wallet every day for 4 years and handing it to some administrator while you "figure it out" anymore? Every state school grad I know who went in the 70s and 80s was there getting their law or engineering degree; most kids I meet now have BMW-car-payment-level student debt and are thinking about changing their focus...

I was a little earlier than you, but college still made sense to get the diploma and distinguish yourself from the crowd. Now, unless you're going into some technical field or must have a specific degree to get a job, I'm not so sure. Borrowing 100 Gs to squeak by to get your business degree to sell pharmaceuticals is not a winning proposition when you can get the same magic paper online for far less. My son is a HS senior and (currently) wants to be a music teacher. If he sticks with that, we'll push him to go straight through and get a masters in education and start on the payscale at MA+0, and kick him in the backside to get to MA+90 as soon as possible. But he's one that could be figuring it out for awhile.

When you break it down, the tuition for most online schools is about the same as state schools. It's the fees, room and board where the student saves by living in mom and dad's basement.
 
Do you mean there is no money if you cut the middle man (college) out of the equation with everyone apprenticing? Certainly there are still trades - esp in the sciences - where it makes sense to focus most or all on classroom time. But clearly the pendulum has swung too far.

Even when I was in college (90s/00s), I was really there "figuring it out." Can you imagine peeling $100 out of your wallet every day for 4 years and handing it to some administrator while you "figure it out" anymore? Every state school grad I know who went in the 70s and 80s was there getting their law or engineering degree; most kids I meet now have BMW-car-payment-level student debt and are thinking about changing their focus...

I believe he's saying that the monetary benefit of pushing kids to apprenticeships instead of college isn't there, at least for any clearly defined group, whereas there are thousands of college administrators, professors, and others who benefit from the current system being funded largely by debt and government programs ... even though the savings to individuals, families, and society from a well-thought out focus on apprenticeships would be massive.

Companies don't care. It even helps them to have employees with a lot of debt so they will stick around in jobs for a longer period of time, decreasing turnover.

Not to get political, but I think increasing taxes on high earners might push more people to go down the "no college" route, too. Incurring $500k in debt and going through residency, being an associate in a big law firm, etc., all so you can be considered "rich" for purposes of taxation, ignoring all it took to get there and how demanding the jobs are, makes less sense all the time.
 
I believe he's saying that the monetary benefit of pushing kids to apprenticeships instead of college isn't there, at least for any clearly defined group, whereas there are thousands of college administrators, professors, and others who benefit from the current system being funded largely by debt and government programs ... even though the savings to individuals, families, and society from a well-thought out focus on apprenticeships would be massive.

Companies don't care. It even helps them to have employees with a lot of debt so they will stick around in jobs for a longer period of time, decreasing turnover.

Not to get political, but I think increasing taxes on high earners might push more people to go down the "no college" route, too. Incurring $500k in debt and going through residency, being an associate in a big law firm, etc., all so you can be considered "rich" for purposes of taxation, ignoring all it took to get there and how demanding the jobs are, makes less sense all the time.
Most people can't hack the 3 years of law school or 5 years of med school/ residency, so I don't think its an issue of disincentivising people from pursuing those careers. Further, those careers are in demand and needed. 80k of debt to work retail with a poly sci degree is what is unnecessary.
 
I was a little earlier than you, but college still made sense to get the diploma and distinguish yourself from the crowd. Now, unless you're going into some technical field or must have a specific degree to get a job, I'm not so sure. Borrowing 100 Gs to squeak by to get your business degree to sell pharmaceuticals is not a winning proposition when you can get the same magic paper online for far less. My son is a HS senior and (currently) wants to be a music teacher. If he sticks with that, we'll push him to go straight through and get a masters in education and start on the payscale at MA+0, and kick him in the backside to get to MA+90 as soon as possible. But he's one that could be figuring it out for awhile.

When you break it down, the tuition for most online schools is about the same as state schools. It's the fees, room and board where the student saves by living in mom and dad's basement.
Yeah. Agreed.

I held off talking about this because it was extracurricular, but every paycheck, my wife and I kick a little cash into an index fund ETF for the kids. Dollar cost averaging + compound interest aren't about the money; they're about the TIME - anybody can afford it, from babysitters to baristas. When they're 18, we hand them over low 6 figures and tell them it's not for debt, not for a house, not for starting a business, not for a car etc - it's for you to keep adding to every check. By 45-55, you've got tons of skin in the game and enough to retire and live upper middle class indefinitely. Keep working until 60-65, and you're living a luxury retirement. What we're doing them is saving that 20 years they can't do it themselves, which builds the base.

What this means is that they are free to pursue whatever they want to pursue, whether it's lucrative or not: artist, athlete, desk jockey, whatever. I enjoy what I do, but with no guidance growing up financially or professionally, I got a late start and have to bust ass and live frugal to have a shot at a nice retirement. I wish I could have charted my own path knowing that I was going to be in great shape no matter what I was doing for work.
 
I believe he's saying that the monetary benefit of pushing kids to apprenticeships instead of college isn't there, at least for any clearly defined group, whereas there are thousands of college administrators, professors, and others who benefit from the current system being funded largely by debt and government programs ... even though the savings to individuals, families, and society from a well-thought out focus on apprenticeships would be massive.

Companies don't care. It even helps them to have employees with a lot of debt so they will stick around in jobs for a longer period of time, decreasing turnover.

Not to get political, but I think increasing taxes on high earners might push more people to go down the "no college" route, too. Incurring $500k in debt and going through residency, being an associate in a big law firm, etc., all so you can be considered "rich" for purposes of taxation, ignoring all it took to get there and how demanding the jobs are, makes less sense all the time.
Hmm, my father has been in the trades for decades and I just don't believe that to be true anymore. When I lived in NYC in the mid-2010s, normal people slept on the street for days trying to get union electrical jobs when a roll call came up. My dad has a lot of close tradesman friends and his non-union plumbers are all clearing low six figures; his army-of-one electrician friends are doing even better. And let's not even get started on the civic employees (e.g., transit) in major cities; GED people clearing a few hundred a year. There are massive needs for software engineers who are so specialized that taking 4 years of classes on International Relations and Fine Arts is a complete waste for everyone but the college.

There are surely tradesman routes where you never get beyond $60k/yr, and not every such job is a plumber or electrician, but IMO what we have now is a system where every "tweener" kid (ie, too talented for the trades but not going to be an academic standout) is going to college and bouncing around until he graduates in General Studies in his 6th year with $90k in debt. Plus, I can no longer count on two hands the number of college grads I know who are in Year 10 of their hodgepodge "career" and still aren't clearing $60k (and never will).

It's just no longer an effective signal anymore except in specific cases; and certainly not at current costs. My .02
 
Hmm, my father has been in the trades for decades and I just don't believe that to be true anymore. When I lived in NYC in the mid-2010s, normal people slept on the street for days trying to get union electrical jobs when a roll call came up. My dad has a lot of close tradesman friends and his non-union plumbers are all clearing low six figures; his army-of-one electrician friends are doing even better. And let's not even get started on the civic employees (e.g., transit) in major cities; GED people clearing a few hundred a year. There are massive needs for software engineers who are so specialized that taking 4 years of classes on International Relations and Fine Arts is a complete waste for everyone but the college.

There are surely tradesman routes where you never get beyond $60k/yr, and not every such job is a plumber or electrician, but IMO what we have now is a system where every "tweener" kid (ie, too talented for the trades but not going to be an academic standout) is going to college and bouncing around until he graduates in General Studies in his 6th year with $90k in debt. Plus, I can no longer count on two hands the number of college grads I know who are in Year 10 of their hodgepodge "career" and still aren't clearing $60k (and never will).

It's just no longer an effective signal anymore except in specific cases; and certainly not at current costs. My .02

My point was consistent with this, not in opposition to it. Legions support the college and university monster (administrators, lenders, instructors, other employees of universities, etc.) and it has illogical, reflexive support in society due to the prior significance of having a college degree. On the other hand, few if any interest groups (and, it seems, not any powerful ones) would support college being de-emphasized in favor of apprenticeships. The customers of tradespeople aren't enough of a discernible, powerful group to push for it, even though it might lead to an increase in supply and a decrease in costs. Tradespeople themselves seem unlikely to support expansion of their pool of competition. In fact, those currently with good situations like you describe wouldn't be in favor of disrupting that gravy train, at least from the perspective of a rational economic actor. My point is that the trades are viable paths for many, but there are many more who have an interest in maintaining the status quo.
 
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