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Gotta say, I'm surprised by the fire Leach messages

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I've been as critical as Leach as anyone on here over the past 3 years. Hell, for a while, the guy could do no wrong in most peoples eyes. Every time someone (like me) would fume about the Colorado home loss, the Colorado State bowl meltdown, the Cal game last year, etc.; most everyone would defend Leach.

Yea, the loss on Saturday to Portland State was awful. It was embarrassing and it never should have happened, but do people honestly think we should fire Leach now? After week 1? Seriously? Apart from that being a horrible football decision, can you imagine how the players would feel who've gutted out Spring and Fall camp?

Nobody is more sick of the "wait til next year" rallying cry than I am. Trust me on that. Still, when you look at the game conditions last Saturday, the fact that we're breaking in a new defensive coordinator, virtually an entirely different defense, a still very inexperienced QB, a new place kicker, punter, kick returner, and a WR group that's settling into a different rotation and having to replace two of it's top-3 pass catchers, it's not THAT surprising we struggled last weekend; particularly given the horrendous weather conditions.

Firing Leach now, or even at the end of the season, would be a huge mistake. We have to let this season play out. As much as we all want a bowl game, what if the season doesn't yield a winning record, but we rally and show a lot of promise in the 2nd half of the season? Next Spring, we'll have 3 returning QB's, our entire WR group, a much more experienced back-7, and the continued development of our scholarship offensive linemen.

There is a lot of football left to be played, and as unlikely as it seems right now, we can still turn things around, even if we lose to Rutgers. Let's not lose sight of the fact that many teams on our schedule didn't exactly look like world beaters last weekend. Oregon State and Colorado? Still winnable games. UW? That wasn't the Boise State of old they lost to. Stanford? Now clearly in a post Harbaugh decline. Wyoming?

I said it when Wulff was the coach, and I'll say it again. There's plenty of time for message board dumpster fires after the season ends. I noticed that BEFORE the games last Saturday, Rutgers was favored by 5.5 points against us, yet the betting line actually dropped to a "pickem" game yesterday before adjusting back to Rutgers being favored by 2 today. Why?

Let's see where we're at after our Stanford game on October 31st.
 
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I've been as critical as Leach as anyone on here over the past 3 years. Hell, for a while, the guy could do no wrong in most peoples eyes. Every time someone (like me) would fume about the Colorado home loss, the Colorado State bowl meltdown, the Cal game last year, etc.; most everyone would defend Leach.

Yea, the loss on Saturday to Portland State was awful. It was embarrassing and it never should have happened, but do people honestly think we should fire Leach now? After week 1? Seriously? Apart from that being a horrible football decision, can you imagine how the players would feel who've gutted out Spring and Fall camp?

Nobody is more sick of the "wait til next year" rallying cry than I am. Trust me on that. Still, when you look at the game conditions last Saturday, the fact that we're breaking in a new defensive coordinator, virtually an entirely different defense, a still very inexperienced QB, a new place kicker, punter, kick returner, and a WR group that's settling into a different rotation and having to replace two of it's top-3 pass catchers, it's not THAT surprising we struggled last weekend; particularly given the horrendous weather conditions.

Firing Leach now, or even at the end of the season, would be a huge mistake. We have to let this season play out. As much as we all want a bowl game, what if the season doesn't yield a winning record, but we rally and show a lot of promise in the 2nd half of the season? Next Spring, we'll have 3 returning QB's, our entire WR group, a much more experienced back-7, and the continued development of our scholarship offensive linemen.

There is a lot of football left to be played, and as unlikely as it seems right now, we can still turn things around, even if we lose to Rutgers. Let's not lose sight of the fact that many teams on our schedule didn't exactly look like world beaters last weekend. Oregon State and Colorado? Still winnable games. UW? That wasn't the Boise State of old they lost to. Stanford? Now clearly in a post Harbaugh decline. Wyoming?

I said it when Wulff was the coach, and I'll say it again. There's plenty of time for message board dumpster fires after the season ends. I noticed that BEFORE the games last Saturday, Rutgers was favored by 5.5 points against us, yet the betting line actually dropped to a "pickem" game yesterday before adjusting back to Rutgers being favored by 2 today. Why?

Let's see where we're at after our Stanford game on October 31st.
First, firing Leach is stupid. I get the frustration. But the solution is let the man coach. He has had enough success to earn his five years. What he has to learn is his job is very different than the Tech job. They knew how to win. So rolling them to make them tougher seems to have worked. This team needs something else. They need a Jason Gesser and Billy Newman. And it is hard when you are young at the QB position.

The other thing that is "gone" are the days when you roll from one QB to the next and get the same production. They may get to that point, but they are not there yet. And one thing is clear, there are very few teams getting QB's ready for the NFL. Mike Price got QB's because back in teh day he was instramental getting JAck Thompson, and then Bledsoe. The air raid, the Oregon O and virtually every other offense in the country does not get these qb's ready for the next level. We may need somehow incorporate that into the air raid and create that niche.
 
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I've been as critical as Leach as anyone on here over the past 3 years. Hell, for a while, the guy could do no wrong in most peoples eyes. Every time someone (like me) would fume about the Colorado home loss, the Colorado State bowl meltdown, the Cal game last year, etc.; most everyone would defend Leach.

Yea, the loss on Saturday to Portland State was awful. It was embarrassing and it never should have happened, but do people honestly think we should fire Leach now? After week 1? Seriously? Apart from that being a horrible football decision, can you imagine how the players would feel who've gutted out Spring and Fall camp?

Nobody is more sick of the "wait til next year" rallying cry than I am. Trust me on that. Still, when you look at the game conditions last Saturday, the fact that we're breaking in a new defensive coordinator, virtually an entirely different defense, a still very inexperienced QB, a new place kicker, punter, kick returner, and a WR group that's settling into a different rotation and having to replace two of it's top-3 pass catchers, it's not THAT surprising we struggled last weekend; particularly given the horrendous weather conditions.

Firing Leach now, or even at the end of the season, would be a huge mistake. We have to let this season play out. As much as we all want a bowl game, what if the season doesn't yield a winning record, but we rally and show a lot of promise in the 2nd half of the season? Next Spring, we'll have 3 returning QB's, our entire WR group, a much more experienced back-7, and the continued development of our scholarship offensive linemen.

There is a lot of football left to be played, and as unlikely as it seems right now, we can still turn things around, even if we lose to Rutgers. Let's not lose sight of the fact that many teams on our schedule didn't exactly look like world beaters last weekend. Oregon State and Colorado? Still winnable games. UW? That wasn't the Boise State of old they lost to. Stanford? Now clearly in a post Harbaugh decline. Wyoming?

I said it when Wulff was the coach, and I'll say it again. There's plenty of time for message board dumpster fires after the season ends. I noticed that BEFORE the games last Saturday, Rutgers was favored by 5.5 points against us, yet the betting line actually dropped to a "pickem" game yesterday before adjusting back to Rutgers being favored by 2 today. Why?

Let's see where we're at after our Stanford game on October 31st.
You are correct. You don't fire him after week 1.

I do think Moos needs to have that little piece of paper with some names on it, though.

I feel bad for Moos. He went all in on what we all thought was a sure fire hire, and got a Fugazi.
 
I don't think anyone -- or, at least anyone reasonable -- seriously wants to fire Leach right here and right now. If they do, that's nuts. As for future implications, that's something else entirely. I've been a Leach fan / defender for a long time, but you can't get around that game being in the conversation for the worst loss in the last six or seven decades, and it's not the single game so much as the (potentially) deeper implications. On that latter note, I'm holding off until we see the team perform at Rutgers.
 
You are correct. You don't fire him after week 1.

I do think Moos needs to have that little piece of paper with some names on it, though.

I feel bad for Moos. He went all in on what we all thought was a sure fire hire, and got a Fugazi.
Sponge, people who have his records are not a fraud. Did he forget how to coach? Nope. How did Dennis do at Miami once he was in charge of recruiting MIami?

There are three teams on our schedule I don't believe we stand a chance to beat. And one of them last week I thought we could beat. UCLA, ASU and Oregon. I think every other game is winnable.

How good is that defensive line? That is the question. What losing to PSU does is tighten the noose. It doesn't give you leeway.
 
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I've been as critical as Leach as anyone on here over the past 3 years. Hell, for a while, the guy could do no wrong in most peoples eyes. Every time someone (like me) would fume about the Colorado home loss, the Colorado State bowl meltdown, the Cal game last year, etc.; most everyone would defend Leach.

Yea, the loss on Saturday to Portland State was awful. It was embarrassing and it never should have happened, but do people honestly think we should fire Leach now? After week 1? Seriously? Apart from that being a horrible football decision, can you imagine how the players would feel who've gutted out Spring and Fall camp?

Nobody is more sick of the "wait til next year" rallying cry than I am. Trust me on that. Still, when you look at the game conditions last Saturday, the fact that we're breaking in a new defensive coordinator, virtually an entirely different defense, a still very inexperienced QB, a new place kicker, punter, kick returner, and a WR group that's settling into a different rotation and having to replace two of it's top-3 pass catchers, it's not THAT surprising we struggled last weekend; particularly given the horrendous weather conditions.

Firing Leach now, or even at the end of the season, would be a huge mistake. We have to let this season play out. As much as we all want a bowl game, what if the season doesn't yield a winning record, but we rally and show a lot of promise in the 2nd half of the season? Next Spring, we'll have 3 returning QB's, our entire WR group, a much more experienced back-7, and the continued development of our scholarship offensive linemen.

There is a lot of football left to be played, and as unlikely as it seems right now, we can still turn things around, even if we lose to Rutgers. Let's not lose sight of the fact that many teams on our schedule didn't exactly look like world beaters last weekend. Oregon State and Colorado? Still winnable games. UW? That wasn't the Boise State of old they lost to. Stanford? Now clearly in a post Harbaugh decline. Wyoming?

I said it when Wulff was the coach, and I'll say it again. There's plenty of time for message board dumpster fires after the season ends. I noticed that BEFORE the games last Saturday, Rutgers was favored by 5.5 points against us, yet the betting line actually dropped to a "pickem" game yesterday before adjusting back to Rutgers being favored by 2 today. Why?

Let's see where we're at after our Stanford game on October 31st.

It's emotional, so I understand. Last season was brutal/disappointing.

Having said that, I have not promoted the idea of firing him. I prefer to not be emotional in my thought processes.
 
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Sponge, people who have his records are not a fraud. Did he forget how to coach? Nope. How did Dennis do at Miami once he was in charge of recruiting MIami?

There are three teams on our schedule I don't believe we stand a chance to beat. And one of them last week I thought we could beat. UCLA, ASU and Oregon. I think every other game is winnable.

How good is that defensive line? That is the question. What losing to PSU does is tighten the noose. It doesn't give you leeway.
I think the game has passed him by...and I have to wonder is the fire there. Seems he is more interested in Geronimo books.

Also, we don't need 20 freaking receivers rotating in and out.

Worry about the secondary first. Receiver has never been a problem here at WSU.
 
You are correct. You don't fire him after week 1.

I do think Moos needs to have that little piece of paper with some names on it, though.

I feel bad for Moos. He went all in on what we all thought was a sure fire hire, and got a Fugazi.

If Leach deserves to be shown the door, then so does Moos. For better or worse, their fates are the same.
 
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First of all, I agree with CougEd. I don't think Leach has forgotten how to coach. He has too many disciples doing good things around the Nation to suggest that he's a fraud. What we can question are his staff hiring decisions and the continued ineptitude of our special teams.
 
I've been as critical as Leach as anyone on here over the past 3 years. Hell, for a while, the guy could do no wrong in most peoples eyes. Every time someone (like me) would fume about the Colorado home loss, the Colorado State bowl meltdown, the Cal game last year, etc.; most everyone would defend Leach.

Yea, the loss on Saturday to Portland State was awful. It was embarrassing and it never should have happened, but do people honestly think we should fire Leach now? After week 1? Seriously? Apart from that being a horrible football decision, can you imagine how the players would feel who've gutted out Spring and Fall camp?

Nobody is more sick of the "wait til next year" rallying cry than I am. Trust me on that. Still, when you look at the game conditions last Saturday, the fact that we're breaking in a new defensive coordinator, virtually an entirely different defense, a still very inexperienced QB, a new place kicker, punter, kick returner, and a WR group that's settling into a different rotation and having to replace two of it's top-3 pass catchers, it's not THAT surprising we struggled last weekend; particularly given the horrendous weather conditions.

Firing Leach now, or even at the end of the season, would be a huge mistake. We have to let this season play out. As much as we all want a bowl game, what if the season doesn't yield a winning record, but we rally and show a lot of promise in the 2nd half of the season? Next Spring, we'll have 3 returning QB's, our entire WR group, a much more experienced back-7, and the continued development of our scholarship offensive linemen.

There is a lot of football left to be played, and as unlikely as it seems right now, we can still turn things around, even if we lose to Rutgers. Let's not lose sight of the fact that many teams on our schedule didn't exactly look like world beaters last weekend. Oregon State and Colorado? Still winnable games. UW? That wasn't the Boise State of old they lost to. Stanford? Now clearly in a post Harbaugh decline. Wyoming?

I said it when Wulff was the coach, and I'll say it again. There's plenty of time for message board dumpster fires after the season ends. I noticed that BEFORE the games last Saturday, Rutgers was favored by 5.5 points against us, yet the betting line actually dropped to a "pickem" game yesterday before adjusting back to Rutgers being favored by 2 today. Why?

Let's see where we're at after our Stanford game on October 31st.

Feel free to note that I haven't called for Leach's head based on the one loss. A loss like this should put an AD in the spot where he has to think about expectations moving forward though. I stick by my earlier posts this summer. Leach has until the end of next year to get us to a bowl game. Past that, and it's time to find a new captain. He's got time. Frankly, the schedule is still favorable. Rutgers, Cal, OSU, UW, Wyoming and CU are still winnable games. Stanford looked ordinary and Arizona wasn't a worldbeater. I'm not sure how many games we can win this year, but there is still opportunity to be had.
 
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Calling for Leach's firing is dumb in that the contract makes it financially unviable.

Moos got sucked into the equivalent of the housing bubble. He assumed that by paying top dollar on an adjustable rate mortgage the market would just keeping skyrocketing.

His balloon payment is whatever he may be forced to eat to get out of the deal.
 
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I agree with the comment that Leach has until the end of next year to show significant improvement. Otherwise, a change will have to be made.

As far as Moos being sucked in, WSU being sold a bill of goods, etc, etc, etc....I don't think that's the case. Even if Leach does flame out after next year, the surge of momentum that he brought to our University is what enabled our facilities upgrades to become a reality. The next coach, whomever it is, will interview at Power-5 program with great facilities and an improving stadium. That wasn't the case in 2011.
 
What worries me is that the team was poorly coached on Saturday, weather should not be enough for a team of PSUs caliber to beat us. It was a lack of adjustments... I don't think we fire leach right now. But if we end up going 2-10 with close wins against Wyoming and Colorado then the conversation needs to had. That's just not good enough. At some point I have to stop looking at the success he had at Tech. It was a totally different situation.
 
Calling for Leach's firing is dumb in that the contract makes it financially unviable.

Moos got sucked into the equivalent of the housing bubble. He assumed that by paying top dollar on an adjustable rate mortgage the market would just keeping skyrocketing.

His balloon payment is whatever he may be forced to eat to get out of the deal.

So, you're saying Moos is the Alan Greenspan of the Palouse...
 
I said it when Wulff was the coach, and I'll say it again. There's plenty of time for message board dumpster fires after the season ends. I noticed that BEFORE the games last Saturday, Rutgers was favored by 5.5 points against us, yet the betting line actually dropped to a "pickem" game yesterday before adjusting back to Rutgers being favored by 2 today. Why?

Let's see where we're at after our Stanford game on October 31st.
I'm surprised you are surprised. If you remember these boards in '98 or '99 2 seasons removed from the'98 Rose Bowl nobody saw coming there were many calling for Price's head. Some saying "the game had passed him by" or the offense wouldn't work without a Leaf or Bledsoe. So why not with Leach?

I am generally patient knowing we aren't $C who can pull the plug over and over again until they get it right. I also have seen the talent improve. Until they are at the point they are so pissed off with losing individually and collectively we will continue to see them fall apart when it counts. Maybe that's not quite it and someone else can express it better but it's something along those lines. I'm as angry/disappointed/sick of it about PSU as anyone (I think I am anyway). Firing Leach won't solve the problem. Firing Leach even at the end of the season without taking into account where we are against where we were is about emotion (as someone already posted). Firing coach #3 after season 4 when the current coach is finally closing the talent gap would almost certainly be a bad decision.

That's message boards though.
 
I don't think anyone -- or, at least anyone reasonable -- seriously wants to fire Leach right here and right now. If they do, that's nuts...On that latter note, I'm holding off until we see the team perform at Rutgers.

Well, if you head over to Brand Y, they're certainly finished with him. Their mantra over there is, "Just give up!"

It's a long season. Saturday sucked. Plenty of room for improvement.
 
Calling for Leach's firing is dumb in that the contract makes it financially unviable.

Moos got sucked into the equivalent of the housing bubble. He assumed that by paying top dollar on an adjustable rate mortgage the market would just keeping skyrocketing.

His balloon payment is whatever he may be forced to eat to get out of the deal.

I'd say it was more like he bought REO on the most expensive street in town, because the house appeared to be in great condition, only to discover after closing that the place has major structural issues that were not inherently obvious.
 
I agree with the comment that Leach has until the end of next year to show significant improvement. Otherwise, a change will have to be made.

As far as Moos being sucked in, WSU being sold a bill of goods, etc, etc, etc....I don't think that's the case. Even if Leach does flame out after next year, the surge of momentum that he brought to our University is what enabled our facilities upgrades to become a reality. The next coach, whomever it is, will interview at Power-5 program with great facilities and an improving stadium. That wasn't the case in 2011.

TV money built the facilities. Our regent may not be the brightest bulbs ever but they understand paying off bonds. Leach didn't bring in the TV money - that was coming regardless.
 
Or his athletic department is the Lehman Brothers of the Palouse.

Or maybe we're the junk bond program of the Pac. While everybody wants to point fingers outward...We were bad before Moos got here or Leach. Now they are trying to pull us out of it, but at the same time...we weren't good before they showed up and it looks as though we still might be stuck doing poorly.
 
What worries me is that the team was poorly coached on Saturday, weather should not be enough for a team of PSUs caliber to beat us. It was a lack of adjustments... I don't think we fire leach right now. But if we end up going 2-10 with close wins against Wyoming and Colorado then the conversation needs to had. That's just not good enough. At some point I have to stop looking at the success he had at Tech. It was a totally different situation.
Here's my thing… And I use your statement as an example without really meaning to call you out, specifically. And it's just one portion of your statement that I'm pulling out. "...with close wins against Wyoming and Colorado." No more than a month ago, it was said it was the "W" column that mattered. Stars didn't matter, recruitment didn't matter, it was the W/L column. Now you are saying HOW we win influences? Come on guys. If we just barely win at Rutgers, if we barely beat Wyoming, if we barely win, WHOMEVER, does it matter now? Not upset here but perspective, unemotional, is a good thing. And I get your overall point being 2 wins, 10 losses being the real point but it sure seems like emotion is getting away with everyone. Just seems like a bit of Chicken LIttle is playing on the board since Saturday. And I understand why… emotion runs hot after something like that. But man, we are all Cougs, we always will be.

We are all on notice, to be sure. This season will always come down to, "What if we would have won the PSU game?" Even if we go to a bowl! Then we'll lament that we should have been to a better bowl. Think what will be said if we get 5 wins!!?? Holy sky is falling… So I agree with all… This was a horrible outing. There are more than one spoke that came lose to make the wheels fall off Saturday, to be sure but the Chicken Little aspect can/should be tempered, IMHO.
 
Calling for Leach's firing is dumb in that the contract makes it financially unviable.

Moos got sucked into the equivalent of the housing bubble. He assumed that by paying top dollar on an adjustable rate mortgage the market would just keeping skyrocketing.

His balloon payment is whatever he may be forced to eat to get out of the deal.

And this is where things could get ugly. I believe Moos will have to decline the rollover clause in his contract once, maybe even twice, before he can afford to buy him out. Not sure how Leach will react to that.

Essentially, the firing is going to take a long time to complete, unless someone has a truck load of cash they can throw at Leach to make him go away.
 
You are correct. You don't fire him after week 1.

I do think Moos needs to have that little piece of paper with some names on it, though.

I feel bad for Moos. He went all in on what we all thought was a sure fire hire, and got a Fugazi.

I agree. I have a hard time pointing the finger at Moos for this, simply because I thought it was such a brilliant hire at the time. I think it may be a case of good process, bad results. The fact Leach isn't working out doesn't mean it was a bad decision at the time.
 
Not yet ready to throw in the towel on this season or Leach. Still hitting the KoolAid but sipping it now instead of chugging it. Let's wait to see how things unfold instead of leaping to a conclusion we may well regret later.
 
I agree. I have a hard time pointing the finger at Moos for this, simply because I thought it was such a brilliant hire at the time. I think it may be a case of good process, bad results. The fact Leach isn't working out doesn't mean it was a bad decision at the time.

The decision to hire Leach wasn't a bad one. The bad decision was giving Leach a rollover contract to appease the insecurities of the WSU pollyana fanbase.
 
The decision to hire Leach wasn't a bad one. The bad decision was giving Leach a rollover contract to appease the insecurities of the WSU pollyana fanbase.

I don't think he gave Leach a rollover contract to appease WSU fans. I think he gave it to him because that was the only way to get him.
 
I don't think he gave Leach a rollover contract to appease WSU fans. I think he gave it to him because that was the only way to get him.

We weren't competing against anyone for his services. If Leach gave Moos a take it or leave it proposition while he was vacationing in Key West, then Moos got completely abused at the negotiating table.
 
We weren't competing against anyone for his services. If Leach gave Moos a take it or leave it proposition while he was vacationing in Key West, then Moos got completely abused at the negotiating table.

Actually, if Moos had not landed Leach sooner, KU was ready to make a big run at him. One could argue that we'd both be better off at this point. Their dumpster fire is much larger than ours at the moment. I personally would have never offered a rolling contract to a coach that hasn't proven anything at my school.

The good news is that at the end of the day, even if everything goes to hell in a handbasket, we will only owe Leach $1.2 million per year (60% of his base salary). Given that we will probably land a coach in the $2 million per year range in total compensation (a savings of $750k over what we pay Leach now), the reality is that we will need to find "only" $500k per year to buy out Leach. If it looks like we are going to lose 2,000 season ticket holders......we are money ahead to fire Leach if things don't improve.

I appreciate everything that Leach has done to raise our overall profile, and I do think we have better athletes than we did when he started, but we need to start winning games in a big way.
 
I don't think he gave Leach a rollover contract to appease WSU fans. I think he gave it to him because that was the only way to get him.

I'm having a tough time dredging up authoritative quotes to this effect, but my understanding is that Moos' standard for all revenue sport (and, perhaps, non-revenue sport) coaches is a five-year deal with automatic rollover. I can recall him discussing this when Leach was hired, and you can see an article on Kent's contract not getting the usual automatic one-year extension here. The theory behind the five year rolling renewal is that when coaches are out recruiting, they can always say they're under contract for the next five years (unless they get non-renewed).

I can understand that theory, but from my outsider's perspective, it seems like a huge risk to the school -- especially a smaller school -- with what seems like little to gain. If the coach does really well, the five years remaining isn't going to be a large hindrance to an Oklahoma that wants to hire him away, particularly since the cost of another school to buy out the contract is less than what WSU's buyout is to fire him. If the coach does poorly, though, you're stuck always having a pretty big five-year buyout unless you don't renew. It seems very likely that non-renewing with someone like Leach, in particular, would poison the well given what Texas Tech fans have reported about Leach purportedly interviewing at other schools, including UW, when he thought he was underpaid.

Contrast this with the usual five-year deal. If the coach does well, yes, there's pressure to extend him after a couple years, but his recruiting should be fine anyway and, as we've seen with Leach, there's going to be pressure to give him a raise even under the rolling five-year model. If the coach clearly bombs after a couple years, though, you can get rid of him while minimizing the buyout. If things aren't clear yet, you can give him a short extension, and can do so negotiating from a position of strength.
 
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