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New Big-12 expansion ideas (ACC schools)

ttowncoug

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Now the PAC-12 schools are getting replaced by Louisville and Pitt delusions.

 
Don't sell people short for being excessively stupid in the face of perceived danger.

This is classic scarcity mentality, in which everyone is now forced/ chosing to play by the rule that the SEC has set forth. Nobody HAS to play by these rules, but since all the money is seemingly directed towards the SEC they figure that if they want a cut they had better go along.

Again, I know its radical thinking, but I feel like the P12 should do their own thing. It might hurt at first, but in the long run we'll be better off. We'll never be competitive with the SEC playing by their rules.
 
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Don't sell people short for being excessively stupid in the face of perceived danger.

This is classic scarcity mentality, in which everyone is now forced/ chosing to play by the rule that the SEC has set forth. Nobody HAS to play by these rules, but since all the money is seemingly directed towards the SEC they figure that if they want a cut they had better go along.

Again, I know its radical thinking, but I feel like the P12 should do their own thing. It might hurt at first, but in the long run we'll be better off. We'll never be compe

I agree that the P10 should do what they wanna do. Exit the race, do what’s best for West Coast schools, call it good. It’s already fixed so the league won’t get into the playoff. Keep the Rose Bowl and other tie ins, go about your business.
 
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It'll be interesting to see what the Big 12 looks like after a few more years. Cincinnati, Houston, BYU and UCF are generally good additions.....but......West Virginia looked like a good addition back in the day and they went 18-20 in their first three years in the league. They hadn't won less than 9 games in their last seven seasons in the Big East. They've had only one 10 win season in their time in the Big 12 conference. Things are moving pretty fast these days, but the Big 12 could end up being a big bowl of meh in the near future. Dreaming about castoffs from other leagues isn't going to help them.

I do hope that the Pac-12 leadership moves pretty quickly to get us back to 12 teams by adding SDSU and whomever they deem to be the best other option. Any kind of change will bring a sense of action that is better than just sitting around with the wolves circling, even if those wolves can't actually touch you.
 
It'll be interesting to see if the Pac-12 expands to the midwest.

I kind of wonder why the Big-12 propaganda machine has suddenly gone silent. Could it be certain teams are considering what the ESPN/PAC-12/ACC platform might have to offer? If you are a responsible President and AD you certainly have an obligation to listen.

Fox has essentially "boxed out" ESPN on all Big-10 content, so ESPN has an vested incentive to make sure that the conferences it partners with do well on the field, so it showcases the best match-ups week in and out. The other thing, I think the 730pm window could open up on ABC as well. Think about a SEC 4pm game with the Pac-12 game of the week pairing. Kind of like the rare Monday Night Football double header.
 
I would assume expansion would be UNLV (Vegas market + likely spot for new HQ?) and then I would assume Oklahoma State, Kansas, Houston, Tech/Kansas State/Iowa State would be who they would target?

SDSU isn't a T1 and I've been seeing some reaffirmation from presidents about academic institutions.
 
SDSU is on a path for tier 1. I think they could get a lesser distribution or some other means to make up for this. UNLV didn't get tier 1 until a few years ago.

I see the So Cal market as "good attractive" to not have a team. SDSU's new stadium is going to be pretty top notch.

If 16 is the magic number, I would personally add SDSU and UNLV, plus 4 schools from the Big-12 that round out the midwest TV markets that will bring viewers.
 
A Pac-12 distributing $35m to its schools while the SEC and Big Ten are distributing $70m - 85m per school, or more, has obvious implications for both the Pac-12 and its member schools.
 
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As discussed earlier, the biggest distribution GAP is the Pac-12 networks in comparison to the Big-10 network and the SEC network. We aren't in enough homes.

If we close that GAP, then we are in a pretty similar position to the other conferences. Again, it's all about TV and viewership.
 
There are some reasons to like SDSU - chief among them being the continued presence in SoCal. Some of the other G5 options mentioned before (UNLV, Nevada, SMU, Fresno) have various things going for them. But, in the area that really matters ($$$) none of them are even close. Even the ones that are in big TV markets don't draw viewers. None of them even reliably sell tickets. The Pac-12 already has a pretty low revenue distribution, and none of those alternatives even come close to bringing what they'd take.

It's been suggested that some of them - SDSU & UNLV in particular - would draw better if they were P5 teams. That may be true....but they'd have to draw a lot better to financially pull their weight. And...when the other conference schools are already in a position where they're falling behind, why would we bring in anyone who's going to water down the distribution further?

I'm not even sure that any of the remaining Big 12 teams would be very certain to bring enough value to prevent reducing everyone else's share.
 
SDSU is on a path for tier 1. I think they could get a lesser distribution or some other means to make up for this. UNLV didn't get tier 1 until a few years ago.

I see the So Cal market as "good attractive" to not have a team. SDSU's new stadium is going to be pretty top notch.

If 16 is the magic number, I would personally add SDSU and UNLV, plus 4 schools from the Big-12 that round out the midwest TV markets that will bring viewers.
I think if SDSU is on the pathway, they'll be in. I thought I had heard that but wasn't able to confirm that.

Agree on those other points.
 
I would enter the markets with pro sports teams. Vegas and San Diego. If I am thinking even bigger, I try and get San Diego St. some "south of the border" following and open up the Mexico market.

I've said many times that I think UNLV is a sleeping giant. With NIL and the transfer portal, Vegas could "buy" a great basketball and football team overnight. I think the Pac-12 schools will travel to Vegas. Makes for fun road trips.

Pac-12 will be built on "west coast culture" and we need to highlight that as our differentiator.
 
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I don't think it’s fair to deny a team because they dont sell enough tickets when 9/10 teams in the league don't sell much for tickets.

If you wanna say that a particular school doesn't bring enough tv sets because of their local, fair. Where is the line? Where do the already rural schools get off pointing the finger at others? Where to the urban schools that don’t draw jack shit for fans get off pointing fingers either?

Im at the point now where 9 of 10 schools in the league already don’t do a good job at some aspect. When does the P10 as a whole make a decision to push their chips in? Do these presidents not see how much $$$ the B10 and SEC are gonna take down? F’ing hell. Would you be surprised if the SEC schools got $75,000,000 per year in their next tv deal? I wouldn’t be. Over ten years a school like Mississippi State could take down almost a billion dollars. Wtf does that do for the entire university?

Meanwhile, in the P10, the presidents are completely ignorant. They pissed away a decade with Michael Scott as commish. Now they lose 2 big members and they’re dumbfounded as to what should happen next.

How about the league offers every West Coast school with the academics required and just grow them? How about making a commitment to West Coast schools and just getting better?

Stop crying about what other leagues get and start working to put out a better product.
 
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There are some reasons to like SDSU - chief among them being the continued presence in SoCal. Some of the other G5 options mentioned before (UNLV, Nevada, SMU, Fresno) have various things going for them. But, in the area that really matters ($$$) none of them are even close. Even the ones that are in big TV markets don't draw viewers. None of them even reliably sell tickets. The Pac-12 already has a pretty low revenue distribution, and none of those alternatives even come close to bringing what they'd take.

It's been suggested that some of them - SDSU & UNLV in particular - would draw better if they were P5 teams. That may be true....but they'd have to draw a lot better to financially pull their weight. And...when the other conference schools are already in a position where they're falling behind, why would we bring in anyone who's going to water down the distribution further?

I'm not even sure that any of the remaining Big 12 teams would be very certain to bring enough value to prevent reducing everyone else's share.

The Pac 12 needs to at minimum expand to 14 teams.

The Pac 12's failure to expand to 14 teams is why they are now the Pac 10 in this mess.

The Pac 12, has to be doing action, expansion, because it will stabilize the Pac 12 because:

1. Even if it's smoke and mirrors illusion, it at least gives the appearance that the Pac 12 is stabilizing, growing,etc.

2. Point 1 above, can lead to bigger, better media deals, with more money to be split between Pac 12 colleges.

3. Because of points 1 and 2, it can make the Pac 12 more Palatable to a Pac 12/ACC Alliance, joint media deal, merger, etc.

4. The Pac 10 is more VULNERABLE to be cherry picked by the other conferences then a Pac 14.

5. If the Pac 10 does get cherry picked, going from 10 down to 8 or down to 6, is WORSE then going from Pac 14 down to PAC 12 or down to PAC 10.

6. The Pac 12 can survive Cherry Picking better.

7. It can make it easier to Cherry Pick the Big 12, instead of the Big 12 cherry picking, killing the Pac 12.

8. As already been said, SDSU, etc, CAN GROW IN VALUE to the Pac 12

9. It's not any one of the points all by itself. It's ALL of these points COMBINED TOGETHER.

10. Expansion can lead to interesting match ups, and can make the conference tougher, which can lead to play off appearances, better bowl games, better media deals, more prestige, more popularity, more research grants, more student enrollment, etc, which CAN LEAD TO MORE MONEY.
 
I don't think it’s fair to deny a team because they dont sell enough tickets when 9/10 teams in the league don't sell much for tickets.

If you wanna say that a particular school doesn't bring enough tv sets because of their local, fair. Where is the line? Where do the already rural schools get off pointing the finger at others? Where to the urban schools that don’t draw jack shit for fans get off pointing fingers either?

Im at the point now where 9 of 10 schools in the league already don’t do a good job at some aspect. When does the P10 as a whole make a decision to push their chips in? Do these presidents not see how much $$$ the B10 and SEC are gonna take down? F’ing hell. Would you be surprised if the SEC schools got $75,000,000 per year in their next tv deal? I wouldn’t be. Over ten years a school like Mississippi State could take down almost a billion dollars. Wtf does that do for the entire university?

Meanwhile, in the P10, the presidents are completely ignorant. They pissed away a decade with Michael Scott as commish. Now they lose 2 big members and they’re dumbfounded as to what should happen next.

How about the league offers every West Coast school with the academics required and just grow them? How about making a commitment to West Coast schools and just getting better?

Stop crying about what other leagues get and start working to put out a better product.
Well, also in-person attendance across most of CFB has been declining for years. It’s not really a strong measure of a program taken by itself. But…SDSU and UNLV are both in major metro areas and still don’t garner enough local interest to regularly get above the mid 20s in their stadiums. Add their low TV numbers to that, and it seems to equal a pretty dismal demand, so they won’t add value to a broadcast deal, which means by adding them the other members get even less money.

I agree the conference needs to improve the product. But right now, I think they need to do that with 10 schools, rather than adding others that aren’t up to par.
 
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SDSU is a long play and a defensive move. SoCal is too valuable to abandon and if the PAC doesn’t come calling, the Big12 very well will. With the Chargers in LA and a better conference to play in I’d expect fan interest and recruiting to really pick up.

UNLV, meh.
 
Well, also in-person attendance across most of CFB has been declining for years. It’s not really a strong measure of a program taken by itself. But…SDSU and UNLV are both in major metro areas and still don’t garner enough local interest to regularly get above the mid 20s in their stadiums. Add their low TV numbers to that, and it seems to equal a pretty dismal demand, so they won’t add value to a broadcast deal, which means by adding them the other members get even less money.

I agree the conference needs to improve the product. But right now, I think they need to do that with 10 schools, rather than adding others that aren’t up to par.

Fair enough.

If they play 9 league games do the get 4 home, 4 away and 1 in LA? Play in the new stadium down there every week?
 
Some years ago UNLV was a powerhouse in basketball. They were the team. I don't think it's far fetched for them to get to that level, quickly, if they had the cash and NIL support to get their. They could also play in the new NBA Vegas arena. I think Vegas would embrace their team if they were a) better and b) played decent Pac-12 teams weekly. (namely in football).

If the Pac-12 doesn't scoop up the Vegas and San Diego markets, the Big-12 will. They will be trying to compete for the late windows and will need a few other teams in their fold to do that.
 
Some years ago UNLV was a powerhouse in basketball. They were the team. I don't think it's far fetched for them to get to that level, quickly, if they had the cash and NIL support to get their. They could also play in the new NBA Vegas arena. I think Vegas would embrace their team if they were a) better and b) played decent Pac-12 teams weekly. (namely in football).

If the Pac-12 doesn't scoop up the Vegas and San Diego markets, the Big-12 will. They will be trying to compete for the late windows and will need a few other teams in their fold to do that.

I have 0 faith in the P10 presidents to make quality business decisions. You can be a league of similar academic universities or you can be a league of tv market universities making millions. Tough to be both. Choose.

My gut tells me they choose nothing lol.
 
Biggs - my only hope is they allow the commish to do his job (lessons learned from USC and UCLA leaving). You saw that USC blocked George from exploring expansion last year. Now they've allowed him to look at all options.

I think they will look VERY VERY foolish if they tell him "NO THANKS" after giving him the green light on expanding.
 
Biggs - my only hope is they allow the commish to do his job (lessons learned from USC and UCLA leaving). You saw that USC blocked George from exploring expansion last year. Now they've allowed him to look at all options.

I think they will look VERY VERY foolish if they tell him "NO THANKS" after giving him the green light on expanding.
I wish George would've told Carol to go f*** herself, and just continued presenting.
 
Biggs - my only hope is they allow the commish to do his job (lessons learned from USC and UCLA leaving). You saw that USC blocked George from exploring expansion last year. Now they've allowed him to look at all options.

I think they will look VERY VERY foolish if they tell him "NO THANKS" after giving him the green light on expanding.

Agree. Aside from the tv $, the league needs to get better. Make some decisions on what you are gonna be and then go be it. If that means more schools, get more schools. If that means mandating teams to shove $ into their programs, do it. This isnt 1982 where you could do whatever. There is a billion dollars to be had over time in tv $. You cant punt on it.

If we were to give schools a ranking on their commitment…. call it 1-4….. 4 being the best, 1 being the worst…. Let’s say Alabama is a 4 for perspective. What would you give each P10 school? Imo, until the league has moved the majority of its schools into being a 3 or 4, there is only gonna be so much tv $ out there for you.
 
The other reality is ALL this money is for FOOTBALL. It's in the conferences best interest to have many good football programs. Which means investments. Which means more type of NIL support. ETC>
 
Las Vegas and San Diego would easily be the top two conference road destinations.
 
Fair enough.

If they play 9 league games do the get 4 home, 4 away and 1 in LA? Play in the new stadium down there every week?
That’s an interesting idea. And how about a sort of “kickoff classic” game in the new stadium in Vegas every year?

Or…everybody plays a neutral site game every year, alternating between Vegas and LA. Conference games in LA. Games against the ACC/Big 12 in Vegas.
 
That’s an interesting idea. And how about a sort of “kickoff classic” game in the new stadium in Vegas every year?

Or…everybody plays a neutral site game every year, alternating between Vegas and LA. Conference games in LA. Games against the ACC/Big 12 in Vegas.

Interesting idea. I like the idea of a league game in LA and a non con game in Vegas. Honestly I’d focus on building up LA first. That is the heartbeat of the P10’s tvs and talent. You HAVE to win there. Vegas is cherry on top. If they could figure out the scheduling for both, Im in. But I’d prefer not to see teams lose home games.
 
Some years ago UNLV was a powerhouse in basketball. They were the team. I don't think it's far fetched for them to get to that level, quickly, if they had the cash and NIL support to get their. They could also play in the new NBA Vegas arena. I think Vegas would embrace their team if they were a) better and b) played decent Pac-12 teams weekly. (namely in football).

If the Pac-12 doesn't scoop up the Vegas and San Diego markets, the Big-12 will. They will be trying to compete for the late windows and will need a few other teams in their fold to do that.
The Big 12 will not move on SDSU or Nevada for the simple reason that these schools do not bring in nearly enough money. It would cause each current Big 12 school to make less money if they brought these two into their conference. Population means nothing if few people are watching.
 
It depends. If the goal is to bring more TV revenue to the conference, the "late" window inventory is going to be important. If ESPN goes "all in" with Pac-12, then likely Fox and FS1 will be looking for inventory for their later games.
 
Interesting idea. I like the idea of a league game in LA and a non con game in Vegas. Honestly I’d focus on building up LA first. That is the heartbeat of the P10’s tvs and talent. You HAVE to win there. Vegas is cherry on top. If they could figure out the scheduling for both, Im in. But I’d prefer not to see teams lose home games.
Well, and if everyone is alternating between Vegas & LA, that ends up only being 2-3 games in each per season. Probably makes sense to emphasize LA more - at least at first - and have 5 conference matchups there through the season. With 2 rules:
  • WSU plays in LA on either Labor Day weekend or the Saturday before THanksgiving
  • No Pac-10 team plays against USC or UCLA in LA. Ever.
 
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I think USC and UCLA will schedule non-conference games with their former Pac-12 conference mates. It's already been suggested that Stanford and USC keep their series. USC will keep ND. That gives them one "cupcake" per year, based on a 12 game schedule.

UCLA vs. Oregon has had good games. Huskies will want a piece of the action. Cougs could get the game, only if we agree to play down there.

I think a Pac-12 kick off game in LA might be in the cards. You could have say Oregon vs. Arizona St, labor day weekend, Sunday night, and get a big national TV crowd. Every team has to "lose" one home game every few years to play in the game.
 
I think USC and UCLA will schedule non-conference games with their former Pac-12 conference mates. It's already been suggested that Stanford and USC keep their series. USC will keep ND. That gives them one "cupcake" per year, based on a 12 game schedule.

UCLA vs. Oregon has had good games. Huskies will want a piece of the action. Cougs could get the game, only if we agree to play down there.

I think a Pac-12 kick off game in LA might be in the cards. You could have say Oregon vs. Arizona St, labor day weekend, Sunday night, and get a big national TV crowd. Every team has to "lose" one home game every few years to play in the game.
If there’s a scheduling alliance with the ACC Alternating between LA and Atlanta for good out of conference Labor Day matchups would be good for both conferences IMO.
 
Well, and if everyone is alternating between Vegas & LA, that ends up only being 2-3 games in each per season. Probably makes sense to emphasize LA more - at least at first - and have 5 conference matchups there through the season. With 2 rules:
  • WSU plays in LA on either Labor Day weekend or the Saturday before THanksgiving
  • No Pac-10 team plays against USC or UCLA in LA. Ever.

Lets be honest. How many people show up? SC and UCLA arent getting packed out crowds. What will WSU vs Colorado get? Also, if it is just about TV sets, does anyone care about butts in seats anymore?

I believe WSU having the smallest stadium in the conference is a bad thing. If it’s just about tv sets, just have people bring their own lawn chairs. F it.
 
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I think USC and UCLA will schedule non-conference games with their former Pac-12 conference mates. It's already been suggested that Stanford and USC keep their series. USC will keep ND. That gives them one "cupcake" per year, based on a 12 game schedule.

UCLA vs. Oregon has had good games. Huskies will want a piece of the action. Cougs could get the game, only if we agree to play down there.

I think a Pac-12 kick off game in LA might be in the cards. You could have say Oregon vs. Arizona St, labor day weekend, Sunday night, and get a big national TV crowd. Every team has to "lose" one home game every few years to play in the game.
shut them out, they chose to leave
 
If the Big 10 closes the books, then the PAC 10 will be fine. Irrelevant, but surviving. Same with the Big 12. The media dollars will F college football beyond all recognition. Ain't dat America. Don't let USC and USLA have their cake, and eat it too. Don't play them. They left everyone else in a terrible, near catastrophic position. Let them travel to Nebraska, or Illinois to get their dollars.
 
It'll be interesting to see if the Pac-12 expands to the midwest.

I kind of wonder why the Big-12 propaganda machine has suddenly gone silent. Could it be certain teams are considering what the ESPN/PAC-12/ACC platform might have to offer? If you are a responsible President and AD you certainly have an obligation to listen.

Fox has essentially "boxed out" ESPN on all Big-10 content, so ESPN has an vested incentive to make sure that the conferences it partners with do well on the field, so it showcases the best match-ups week in and out. The other thing, I think the 730pm window could open up on ABC as well. Think about a SEC 4pm game with the Pac-12 game of the week pairing. Kind of like the rare Monday Night Football double header.

The snobby corrupt left wing Pac12 school administrators won't dirty their hands by adding any Midwest schools that don't buy into their "values." Of course, some of these same schools would jump at the chance to join the B10 if they see enough Benjamins waved in front of them (see USC and UCLA).
 
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