New Depth Chart

[Flatlandcoug]

Didn't know if you saw that the new depth chart is out.

A few observations.

1) Our offensive line averages well over 300 lbs

2) We have 10 different guys listed in the OL two deep for the first time in years

3) Defense is switching to a 3-3-5.

I'm happy that we have a bunch of upperclassmen on the lines in particular.

 

[Coug95man2]

Didn't know if you saw that the new depth chart is out.

A few observations.

1) Our offensive line averages well over 300 lbs

2) We have 10 different guys listed in the OL two deep for the first time in years

3) Defense is switching to a 3-3-5.

I'm happy that we have a bunch of upperclassmen on the lines in particular.

Dovetails nicely with something I saw.
1 and 2) CML's first season, he had 6 scholarship OL to play through the season, total. Not on the 2 deep, but total. We didn't even HAVE a 3 deep. We were redshirting 4 players. Spitz started the season but was injured the second week leaving Bosch, Fullington, Goetz, Jacobson, Meighen and Rodgers. At that time, they averaged 265 lb. We've come a long way, baby.

 

[dgibbons]

Didn't know if you saw that the new depth chart is out.

A few observations.

1) Our offensive line averages well over 300 lbs

2) We have 10 different guys listed in the OL two deep for the first time in years

3) Defense is switching to a 3-3-5.

I'm happy that we have a bunch of upperclassmen on the lines in particular.

Not sure I'd call it a 3-3-5 just yet. I saw lots of four down linemen in the spring game, but there was no blitzing. Other than the SAM now being called a nickel, what is the difference? The SAM position under Breske was a hybrid LB/S.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Not sure I'd call it a 3-3-5 just yet. I saw lots of four down linemen in the spring game, but there was no blitzing. Other than the SAM now being called a nickel, what is the difference? The SAM position under Breske was a hybrid LB/S.

3 down linemen, 3 linebackers, 5 defensive backs? Call it what you want I guess. I'm sure that there will be times when we have a 4-2-5 and I'm sure that we'll see situations where we are running more of a 4-3 or 3-4. I like the idea that the DC is changing it up.

 

[ttowncoug]

Where Bartelone? I haven't heard any new news on him in a while.

 

[Coug1990]

Where Bartelone? I haven't heard any new news on him in a while.

Still injured. He has missed two years and missed this spring practice. I would not expect anything from here on out. If he ever plays again, consider it gravy.

 

[Coug1990]

3 down linemen, 3 linebackers, 5 defensive backs? Call it what you want I guess. I'm sure that there will be times when we have a 4-2-5 and I'm sure that we'll see situations where we are running more of a 4-3 or 3-4. I like the idea that the DC is changing it up.

It is a 3-3-5. There may be a linebacker that comes up to the line of scrimmage, but there is still a lineman (NT) over the center.

 

[wazzupdx]

Defense will be more of a 4-2-5 actually. Almost always have 4 guys on the line, 2 Middle backers 1 Rover/Nickel and the 4 regular DBs. A switch that makes complete sense when looking at our conference.

 

[Coug90]

Here we go again...3-3 or 4-2?? Makes absolutely zero difference folks. Sometimes 3 guys will have a hand in the dirt and sometimes 4 will. Guess what...on 3rd and 26 I bet all 6 guys will be standing up like half the teams in football do now. Give me the best front 6 we got. This conversation is so old and outdated it's ridiculous.

Defense will be more of a 4-2-5 actually. Almost always have 4 guys on the line, 2 Middle backers 1 Rover/Nickel and the 4 regular DBs. A switch that makes complete sense when looking at our conference.

 

[BiggsCoug]

Still injured. He has missed two years and missed this spring practice. I would not expect anything from here on out. If he ever plays again, consider it gravy.

What happened???

 

[wazzupdx]

Here we go again...3-3 or 4-2?? Makes absolutely zero difference folks. Sometimes 3 guys will have a hand in the dirt and sometimes 4 will. Guess what...on 3rd and 26 I bet all 6 guys will be standing up like half the teams in football do now. Give me the best front 6 we got. This conversation is so old and outdated it's ridiculous.

whoa, sorry for being so outlandish and offensive, i'll keep my defensive formation opinions to myself from here on out.

 

[Coug1990]

What happened???

Unfortunately, we are not entirely sure. Leach never discloses injuries. The beat writers have said he was injured. I think they said he was on crutches at times. Not sure if knee, foot, etc.

 

[Coug1990]

whoa, sorry for being so outlandish and offensive, i'll keep my defensive formation opinions to myself from here on out.

Don't worry about this. People do not quite understand what a 3-4 or 4-3 really is. People mistakenly think if you count the number of defensive lineman on line of scrimmage, you can tell whether it is a 3-4 or 4-3. Actually, you have to see if there is a defensive lineman over the center (NT). If there is, it is a 3-?)

Defenses today are multiple. In the past, a 4-3 had four defensive lineman that lined up in the gaps between the offensive lineman. Each one would be responsible for one gap, the one in front of them. In a 3-4, it was known as a two gap defense, as each lineman would be in front of an offensive lineman and be responsible for the gaps on each side.

Today, there are combinations of some players responsible for one gap and another responsible for two gaps.

 

[YakiCoug]

Don't worry about this. People do not quite understand what a 3-4 or 4-3 really is. People mistakenly think if you count the number of defensive lineman on line of scrimmage, you can tell whether it is a 3-4 or 4-3. Actually, you have to see if there is a defensive lineman over the center (NT). If there is, it is a 3-?)

Defenses today are multiple. In the past, a 4-3 had four defensive lineman that lined up in the gaps between the offensive lineman. Each one would be responsible for one gap, the one in front of them. In a 3-4, it was known as a two gap defense, as each lineman would be in front of an offensive lineman and be responsible for the gaps on each side.

Today, there are combinations of some players responsible for one gap and another responsible for two gaps.

Mitchell didn't play in the spring game but had shown good explosiveness in prior scrimmages. The arrival of Luani and Broughton in the d-backfield, and Porter at linebacker could be huge. Mitchell and Luani were rated as 4 stars by some recruiting analysts, with one rating Luani the No. 1 JC safety in the country.

 

[Coug1990]

t there

Mitchell didn't play in the spring game but had shown good explosiveness in prior scrimmages. The arrival of Luani and Broughton in the d-backfield, and Porter at linebacker could be huge. Mitchell and Luani were rated as 4 stars by some recruiting analysts, with one rating Luani the No. 1 JC safety in the country.

I believe that the defense will be mediocre or even average if the team can stay relatively injury free. The first team will be kind of OK, but the second string is not nearly as good. When the second string has played in the last few years, there has been a big drop in play.

Also, statistically the teams lack of turnovers defensively was an anomaly. If things go back to normal, it will help the defense and offense immensely.

 

[Coug303]

Tend to agree with folks who see the flexibility in defensive options but understand the base personnel configurations. Although I do not believe we boast above average talent, particularly in the secondary, execution is what matters. Being a fundamentally sound, cohesive unit covers up any slight disadvantage in talent you might have.

Too bad this is DC Grinch's first year.

 

[kayak15]

t there

I believe that the defense will be mediocre or even average if the team can stay relatively injury free. The first team will be kind of OK, but the second string is not nearly as good. When the second string has played in the last few years, there has been a big drop in play.

Also, statistically the teams lack of turnovers defensively was an anomaly. If things go back to normal, it will help the defense and offense immensely.

That is pretty much how I see it too. Mediocrity would be an upgrade. Lack of depth is worrisome. Hopefully not the decline we have seen recently.

Lack of turnovers may have been an anomaly but was also at least partially due to coaching. Grinch seems to be emphasizing this now and we should see an improvement this
Fall.

If we can move up from horrible to mediocre overall play on defense with an increase in turnovers it should be reflected on the scoreboard.

ST performance is still a black hole and will be so until the new recruits show up this Summer. I'm thinking of the new kicker and the preferred walk-on punter from Idaho. We should be getting rumors through the grapevine during preseason training but won't know for sure until the season starts.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

The biggest issue with our defense has been consistency. Some of that is probably due to thin talent. We held Stanford to one TD in a 36 minute stretch of the game last year but gave up 17 points in the final 18 minutes to lose big. We gave up 21 points in 9 1/2 minutes against Utah but only gave up two field goals the rest of the way. Two broken plays were the difference between a 21-7 WSU lead against Oregon and a tied ball game. When you look at the AC stats, two broken plays were the reason it wasn't a 7-0 game in the third quarter. Blown punt coverage and one big pass play changed a potential 17-10 3rd quarter game against USC into a 31-10 laugher. We don't have the talent to make it easy, but avoiding the big mistake will give us the chance. Mike Leach preaches it and our team hasn't been able to do it consistently yet. As someone said above, gambling defenses that give up big plays usually get a few turnovers that mitigate the damage. We didn't get those turnovers last year. A little bit of both (turnovers and consistent tackling and coverage) would go a long ways.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

Two completely different thoughts, triggered by this thread.

First, I ran into Bartelone's uncle at the grocery store at the end of his second year at WSU (a year after he got hurt). I saw his Coug hat and it started a conversation; I don't know him. He didn't tell me what the injury was (I didn't ask), but at that time the family expected him to fully recover and possibly be able to play at 100% the next year. As we know, that didn't happen. But it suggests that the injury, or injuries, were something that would respond to time and healing. So it may not be over yet. Unfortunately, that is all that I can offer on that subject.

Second, I'll throw in my $0.02 on the D formation. I'm used to thinking of any front that puts a DL directly on the center as an odd man front. So for me it will be a 3 man front, even if you throw a LB up against a TE or where ever you put that 4th (small) guy on the line. And while it is easy fan shorthand to talk of a 4 man front even if it is an odd man front, it is good to understand that the offense treats a DL formation differently if there is a guy head-up on the center as opposed to if there is not. A guy on the center forces the OL blocking scheme to change, because a good nose guard/tackle will require a double team in a lot of situations, which then means that the OL has to somehow account for the LB's differently than if it were an even man front. One more related thought. It has been a very long time since we had a center who was able to handle a nose without the assistance of a guard. In short, we've had to double team nose tackles even if some other teams did not. That really messes with your run game, and it also makes you more vulnerable to a blitz. For me personally, a significant measure of how far our O line has come will be how often we need to double team a nose when we are playing an odd front defense. At least in passing situations, I'm hoping that we will be able to avoid the double team most of the time this year. If that proves to be the case, and our tackles can stay with outside speed rushers for 2.5 - 3 seconds, we will cut our sacks way down. And while I'm not sure how much our Oline improvement will help our rushing game, I suspect that our pass protection at least will be better. And a lot of that is is built around the assumption that our play at center (where we actually have competition between two relatively PAC-level guys) will be better.

 

[Coug1990]

Two completely different thoughts, triggered by this thread.

First, I ran into Bartelone's uncle at the grocery store at the end of his second year at WSU (a year after he got hurt). I saw his Coug hat and it started a conversation; I don't know him. He didn't tell me what the injury was (I didn't ask), but at that time the family expected him to fully recover and possibly be able to play at 100% the next year. As we know, that didn't happen. But it suggests that the injury, or injuries, were something that would respond to time and healing. So it may not be over yet. Unfortunately, that is all that I can offer on that subject.

Second, I'll throw in my $0.02 on the D formation. I'm used to thinking of any front that puts a DL directly on the center as an odd man front. So for me it will be a 3 man front, even if you throw a LB up against a TE or where ever you put that 4th (small) guy on the line. And while it is easy fan shorthand to talk of a 4 man front even if it is an odd man front, it is good to understand that the offense treats a DL formation differently if there is a guy head-up on the center as opposed to if there is not. A guy on the center forces the OL blocking scheme to change, because a good nose guard/tackle will require a double team in a lot of situations, which then means that the OL has to somehow account for the LB's differently than if it were an even man front. One more related thought. It has been a very long time since we had a center who was able to handle a nose without the assistance of a guard. In short, we've had to double team nose tackles even if some other teams did not. That really messes with your run game, and it also makes you more vulnerable to a blitz. For me personally, a significant measure of how far our O line has come will be how often we need to double team a nose when we are playing an odd front defense. At least in passing situations, I'm hoping that we will be able to avoid the double team most of the time this year. If that proves to be the case, and our tackles can stay with outside speed rushers for 2.5 - 3 seconds, we will cut our sacks way down. And while I'm not sure how much our Oline improvement will help our rushing game, I suspect that our pass protection at least will be better. And a lot of that is is built around the assumption that our play at center (where we actually have competition between two relatively PAC-level guys) will be better.

Yes, good follow up to what I wrote. I think what will also help is that the line is getting to where Leach wants them physically. These really are big men we are talking about now. Plus, because they are experienced, they should be able to play faster as it becomes automatic and they are not slowing down to think.

Plus, I believe there are three individual lineman that are very good and better than we have seen in a while: Dahl, Sorenson and Madison.

 

[95coug]

Here we go again...3-3 or 4-2?? Makes absolutely zero difference folks. Sometimes 3 guys will have a hand in the dirt and sometimes 4 will. Guess what...on 3rd and 26 I bet all 6 guys will be standing up like half the teams in football do now. Give me the best front 6 we got. This conversation is so old and outdated it's ridiculous.

Forget the front 6, I'm wondering about the back 5. We couldn't consistently find even 3-4 DBs who could actually play the pass last season, now we're going to try to play 5 of them?

 

[wulffui]

Forget the front 6, I'm wondering about the back 5. We couldn't consistently find even 3-4 DBs who could actually play the pass last season, now we're going to try to play 5 of them?

Actually, I like this- it feels like your fifth will be a bit bigger guy, maybe if there's some extra personnel back there, the corners won't be afraid to look back on a ball, or jump a route without worrying about it going 80 yards.

 

[BiggsCoug]

Pick your poison. If you run an even man front you need pass rushing ends. Which are a huge commodity in football. If you run an odd man front you need a nose guard. Which is a huge commodity.

You'd like to think that if you add numbers to the back end of your defense you'll add bodies to your special teams as well.

You'd like to think that your defense sees so many routes in practice because your offense throws the ball so much that pass defense would actually be a strength with all the reps they get. Maybe they get beat by DNA but they won't get beat by TNT. TNT = takes no talent... to line up, know where you're going, know who you're defending, be in shape....

I hate multiple front defenses. Pick what you're gonna do and do it. Don't muddy the water with different schemes for different situations. The only perfect scheme is the one you've coached up and recruited to. Don't find yourself with a mish mash of bodies and drill work and no way to make it cohesive and playable.

 

[95coug]

Looking at the chart, I'm still not sold.

I think the front 6 looks serviceable, although I wish Paulo was either 20 lbs heavier or quicker, and I'm not sure if Ekuale can be an effective NT. I like the LB corps. We'll lose a lot of seniors (4 of 6 starters) after this season, but should have depth returning for 2016.

The back 5 continues to be a concern. White has potential to be a solid corner, the others are question marks. Dotson might make a decent safety, but right now it's just potential. Taliulu is shown as the starting SS, and while he's not bad in run support, he's always struggled in coverage. It looks like another season of crossing our fingers whenever the opponent's QB releases the ball.

Offense looks solid. We should be better on the OL, with a lot of experience returning and some depth developing. We lose the left side this year, but should be able to shuffle in new bodies for 2016. QB is obviously a bit of a question. I'm actually looking at the WR corps a bit...we've got some solid kids there this season, but it's becoming an older group. We'll lose 3 from the 2 deep this year, and 3 more next year. With the guys coming back (especially Marks), I'd be tempted to redshirt Cracraft this year...save the proven player to be the leader of the unit in '16-17. Of course, there's always something to be said for playing your best players...but when you've got decent talent returning already, it hurts less to save some for later.

 

[95coug]

Pick what you're gonna do and do it. Don't muddy the water with different schemes for different situations. The only perfect scheme is the one you've coached up and recruited to. Don't find yourself with a mish mash of bodies and drill work and no way to make it cohesive and playable.

This. Based on the thread/article about how Leach runs offensive practices, the defensive scheme seems contradictory.

 

[CougEd]

Pick your poison. If you run an even man front you need pass rushing ends. Which are a huge commodity in football. If you run an odd man front you need a nose guard. Which is a huge commodity.

You'd like to think that if you add numbers to the back end of your defense you'll add bodies to your special teams as well.

You'd like to think that your defense sees so many routes in practice because your offense throws the ball so much that pass defense would actually be a strength with all the reps they get. Maybe they get beat by DNA but they won't get beat by TNT. TNT = takes no talent... to line up, know where you're going, know who you're defending, be in shape....

I hate multiple front defenses. Pick what you're gonna do and do it. Don't muddy the water with different schemes for different situations. The only perfect scheme is the one you've coached up and recruited to. Don't find yourself with a mish mash of bodies and drill work and no way to make it cohesive and playable.

You know Doba use to say I need two big DT's and two corners and he could make the defense work. The problem was getting those two big active DT's. A huge commodity and if I were a coach and was going to cheat and pay the big bucks, that is my first investment. The problem with the 3-4, or moving from a 3-4 to 4-3 multiple fronts is you now need three big bodies, plus at least two more because of depth. Mike Leach has the cache to get more true Dlineman in the program, but he is sure asking a lot because those big active defensive players are a premium. Plus you need that OLB who has a singular focus, putting the QB on the ground.
I too wish they would pick one and stay with it. And I think a 4-3 is more workable in the Palouse.

 

[CougEd]

Looking at the chart, I'm still not sold.

I think the front 6 looks serviceable, although I wish Paulo was either 20 lbs heavier or quicker, and I'm not sure if Ekuale can be an effective NT. I like the LB corps. We'll lose a lot of seniors (4 of 6 starters) after this season, but should have depth returning for 2016.

The back 5 continues to be a concern. White has potential to be a solid corner, the others are question marks. Dotson might make a decent safety, but right now it's just potential. Taliulu is shown as the starting SS, and while he's not bad in run support, he's always struggled in coverage. It looks like another season of crossing our fingers whenever the opponent's QB releases the ball.

Offense looks solid. We should be better on the OL, with a lot of experience returning and some depth developing. We lose the left side this year, but should be able to shuffle in new bodies for 2016. QB is obviously a bit of a question. I'm actually looking at the WR corps a bit...we've got some solid kids there this season, but it's becoming an older group. We'll lose 3 from the 2 deep this year, and 3 more next year. With the guys coming back (especially Marks), I'd be tempted to redshirt Cracraft this year...save the proven player to be the leader of the unit in '16-17. Of course, there's always something to be said for playing your best players...but when you've got decent talent returning already, it hurts less to save some for later.

Mike Leach will never have a shortage of productive receivers, they are Oregon's version of their running backs that they just plug and play.

 

[CougEd]

Don't worry about this. People do not quite understand what a 3-4 or 4-3 really is. People mistakenly think if you count the number of defensive lineman on line of scrimmage, you can tell whether it is a 3-4 or 4-3. Actually, you have to see if there is a defensive lineman over the center (NT). If there is, it is a 3-?)

Defenses today are multiple. In the past, a 4-3 had four defensive lineman that lined up in the gaps between the offensive lineman. Each one would be responsible for one gap, the one in front of them. In a 3-4, it was known as a two gap defense, as each lineman would be in front of an offensive lineman and be responsible for the gaps on each side.

Today, there are combinations of some players responsible for one gap and another responsible for two gaps.

1990....are you saying if there is a body over the center that is what makes it a 3-4? That is the determining factor?

 

[95coug]

You know Doba use to say I need two big DT's and two corners and he could make the defense work. The problem was getting those two big active DT's. A huge commodity and if I were a coach and was going to cheat and pay the big bucks, that is my first investment. The problem with the 3-4, or moving from a 3-4 to 4-3 multiple fronts is you now need three big bodies, plus at least two more because of depth. Mike Leach has the cache to get more true Dlineman in the program, but he is sure asking a lot because those big active defensive players are a premium. Plus you need that OLB who has a singular focus, putting the QB on the ground.
I too wish they would pick one and stay with it. And I think a 4-3 is more workable in the Palouse.

Doba did a great job of that as a DC, but I think that with number of teams now playing read-option variants, teams now need to have a couple of athletic LBs who can correctly and consistently diagnose the play. In the 4-3, you need DEs who can do it, and LBs who can react. In the 3-4, you need LBs who can do it all, and enough mass in front of them to move the play outside. Doba built great defenses against the pro style/west coast offenses, but he'd be a step behind in the current era.

The other problem now is the teams who play up-tempo on offense force the defense to have more depth to rotate into the game. Doba's two big DTs would be gassed in the 2nd half, opening up the middle.

Loved the Doba defenses, but the game has moved on. Of his best defenses, I think the POsse would be fine, just because they had so much overall talent and instinct...although depth would be a concern...and the 2002 unit (which Akey coached, but was really Doba's) would probably hold their own. Most of the rest I think would struggle against up tempo and read option offenses.