OT: All Washington state colleges dropping SAT/ACT admissions requirement

[Observer11]

Sadly, the group that is going to be hurt most by this trend, in California, are the first generation Asian kids. Living in the San Gabriel Valley, I'm utterly amazed what they have been able to accomplish through commitment and hard work. The UC, the most selective public university system in the country is 35% Asian, the largest demographic by a wide margin, even though Asians make up less than 14% of the state population. Lazy arse white kids, the richest demo, with zero excuses, making up 37% of the population, represent only 21% of the UC demo. I guess they won't have to flee to Eugene and Tempe to attend school anymore. The old system wasn't racist, it was pro hard work. Unfortunately, facts tend to be ignored in current narrative. The private schools like Stanford and the Ivy should be the focus of this misguided ire, where meritorious Asian kids are grossly underrepresented, for no good reason other than they don't fit in these schools ideal demographic model.

Got to have room for the Chinese students paying international tuition instead of in-state.

Money grab just like they did at the UW to the detriment of the taxpayers of this state who actually fund the damned thing. For the last decade, the worth thing to be was a white male with a pretty decent GPA but not quite 4.0 GPA from either the 509, 425 or 360 - get in line behind the party officials' kids.

Fortunately, WSU didn't run and generally doesn't run that scam.

 

[CougEd]

Got to have room for the Chinese students paying international tuition instead of in-state.

Money grab just like they did at the UW to the detriment of the taxpayers of this state who actually fund the damned thing. For the last decade, the worth thing to be was a white male with a pretty decent GPA but not quite 4.0 GPA from either the 509, 425 or 360 - get in line behind the party officials' kids.

Fortunately, WSU didn't run and generally doesn't run that scam.

Bingo....and here is the shortsightedness of it all. And Bill Gates spoke to it, they get a good computer science education at say UW, and granted they pay for it with out-of-state tuition, but once they are done they go back to the countries of origin and don't spend or donate another dime to the school or the community they lived in for four years plus.

 

[95coug]

Got to have room for the Chinese students paying international tuition instead of in-state.

Money grab just like they did at the UW to the detriment of the taxpayers of this state who actually fund the damned thing. For the last decade, the worth thing to be was a white male with a pretty decent GPA but not quite 4.0 GPA from either the 509, 425 or 360 - get in line behind the party officials' kids.

Fortunately, WSU didn't run and generally doesn't run that scam.

The part about international students is true - including at WSU. International students come with money, at a higher cost, and they pay on arrival. In-state kids cost the campus more, and generally require more financial aid.

After the international students comes the kids with guaranteed aid - veterans with GI Bill, privately funded academic full rides, federal/private grants (often this means minority students, especially first generation).

When most of us went to school, there was incentive for the state campuses to accept in-state students. As the state contribution per student has eroded, so has that incentive. An in-state student who's counting on loans and a part-time job to get through school is a bit of a risk - both financially and academically - and is not going to be pursued with much energy.

 

[Cougsocal]

Got to have room for the Chinese students paying international tuition instead of in-state.

Money grab just like they did at the UW to the detriment of the taxpayers of this state who actually fund the damned thing. For the last decade, the worth thing to be was a white male with a pretty decent GPA but not quite 4.0 GPA from either the 509, 425 or 360 - get in line behind the party officials' kids.

Fortunately, WSU didn't run and generally doesn't run that scam.

A white male with a good GPA and SAT score has been a rare commodity the last 20 years. Too interested in on line gaming in their parent's basement to applying themselves. It is a major reason colleges are approach 60% female and skewing heavily Asian. The young, lazy white male is now a major demographic of under achievement.

 

[CougEd]

Okay ... well, I'm trying here. Really, I am. But you are laying out these rambling, desultory streams of random anecdotes without apparent thought given to any particular line of argument. and coming up with these really weird takes regarding what I'm writing -- I certainly didn't say Eastern was better than WSU, and that litany of colleges was in order of increasing prestige (with a big jump) to emphasize implicitly that it wasn't necessary for the fisherman or car lot owner to have attended any of them, with it intentionally getting more ridiculous as one went down the list -- and pretending not to understand, or maybe really not understanding, any of the points I made about the irrelevance of your prior set of anecdotes.

This latest anecdote of a guy who is a CEO of a biotech company is interesting (and a nice story), but it's not clear what it demonstrates. Have you considered any of these?

- For every anecdote you can come up with of a person who was admitted to something despite bad grades, or who went to WSU and wasn't an abject failure despite a bad college GPA, one could come up with myriad examples of failures and misallocated resources. They just aren't spoken of or noteworthy because they are numerous and comport with common sense and experience. That's why the standards exist in the first place. E.g., my roommate freshman year had mediocre credentials, made it in at WSU, and then flunked out. Lots of people in my high school had shitty grades and have done nothing with their lives. So what? What if one of them had turned it around, went to a community college, transferred to WSU, graduated with 2.5 GPA, then parlayed a car sales job into owning multiple car lots and retiring at 50? Does that mean colleges need more people with subpar grades or that WSU needs to prioritize kids from community colleges who can scrape by in college? Does Harvard? What about the kids with good grades who do, in fact, do very well in life? I deal with dozens of them each day. What are you trying to argue?

- What if the biotech CEO, ironically, had a good GRE score offset the poor grades?

- What if the person who wasn't admitted to the grad program, with that guy who now is the biotech CEO taking her spot, would have cured cancer?

- What if this biotech CEO we're talking about wouldn't have had a drug candidate work out and nobody would have heard of him? What does that show?

- Should Harvard just swap classes with WSU because some people at WSU will do OK in life, even as fishermen or something? I mean, seriously, WTF?

I could list about 10,000 other things here ranging from global competition to predictors of success in college, or give you a million anecdotes about people I've dealt with.

Most importantly, and really, this is all you really need to respond to .... what exactly are you arguing for? That the SAT shouldn't be part of an application, even if all this other stuff you are advocating for would still be considered? What is your proposition you're advocating?

Thanks for clearing things up .

The car dealer example, the fisherman example etc was in response to Chips post that Entrepreneurialshio will fade if we minimize SAT scores . I simply said there are other ways to skin a cat.

In regards to the CEO I didn’t consider any other outcome with others may have been pushed out for several reasons .The first is i have hindsight and that is 20/20.

Second if there was a more qualified candidate with Better scores and or grades I believe they were admitted to one of the ten other schools he applied to .
Finally I don’t believe SAT scores necessarily dictate success and that a school like WSU has long made exemptions and I am glad they do so.

I have always believed undergrad I got a better education at WSU than my wife who attended UW. It may have changed at WSU but the people who were hired to be my prof and teach me were the ones in class day after day. I believe profs are met to help you understand and give information and inspire a student. May be naive on my part, but I can tell you the way I learn personally doesn’t react well to a 21 year old grad student reading off notes and doesn’t engage me.

So for WSU I could care less they dropped SAT scores .

 

[BiggsCoug]

Thanks for clearing things up .

The car dealer example, the fisherman example etc was in response to Chips post that Entrepreneurialshio will fade if we minimize SAT scores . I simply said there are other ways to skin a cat.

In regards to the CEO I didn’t consider any other outcome with others may have been pushed out for several reasons .The first is i have hindsight and that is 20/20.

Second if there was a more qualified candidate with Better scores and or grades I believe they were admitted to one of the ten other schools he applied to .
Finally I don’t believe SAT scores necessarily dictate success and that a school like WSU has long made exemptions and I am glad they do so.

I have always believed undergrad I got a better education at WSU than my wife who attended UW. It may have changed at WSU but the people who were hired to be my prof and teach me were the ones in class day after day. I believe profs are met to help you understand and give information and inspire a student. May be naive on my part, but I can tell you the way I learn personally doesn’t react well to a 21 year old grad student reading off notes and doesn’t engage me.

So for WSU I could care less they dropped SAT scores .

When I first met Ed I thought he was a failure. Now I see he married a husky. I was right all along.

 

[CougEd]

When I first met Ed I thought he was a failure. Now I see he married a husky. I was right all along.

She went slumming.

I converted her ... roots for the Cougs

 

[BiggsCoug]

She went slumming.

I converted her ... roots for the Cougs

I guess Jesus died for her sins too. Her penance of being married to you is steep.

 

[chipdouglas]

BTW, re test anxiety, I buy that it may be real, even if much more often, it's just an excuse for someone who isn't all that smart but instead is dedicated or driven (admirable qualities in their own right, but not the same) or, if real, reflects someone cracking under pressure generally.

On that latter point, high-pressure situations are part of many adult professional and personal lives, including in situations like final exams in college or grad school, not to mention numerous aspects of most jobs. It also is hard to believe someone can do well on other tests, certainly in college--well enough to get very good grades in high school and succeed in college--yet just happen to bomb the SAT (multiple times). If that student can't test well or cracks under pressure, perhaps competing against a bunch of gunners at a highly selective university, instead of going to a university that isn't quite so elite, isn't the opportunity we should be going out of our way to accommodate.

Just got back to reading this, and entirely agree.

Even in my early jobs, the pressure I had to perform was unlike ANYTHING I ever experienced in undergrad or grad school. For me, it was being new to revenue and presenting an annual plan for a Fortune 500 company to a roomful of 100+ angry wholesalers who each knew WAY more than I did, without looking like a complete jackass. Or any of a dozen other experiences, you pick.

But for others, it's anything from cold calling to brain surgery and bomb squad. Your boss, or the family of the father on the operating table, cares very little what you're able to do in a zero-pressure environment. They care a LOT about what you're able to do right now under max pressure.

Pressure is part of life and something that must be experienced and defeated as part of any academic training regimen.

 

[95coug]

Just got back to reading this, and entirely agree.

Even in my early jobs, the pressure I had to perform was unlike ANYTHING I ever experienced in undergrad or grad school. For me, it was being new to revenue and presenting an annual plan for a Fortune 500 company to a roomful of 100+ angry wholesalers who each knew WAY more than I did, without looking like a complete jackass. Or any of a dozen other experiences, you pick.

But for others, it's anything from cold calling to brain surgery and bomb squad. Your boss, or the family of the father on the operating table, cares very little what you're able to do in a zero-pressure environment. They care a LOT about what you're able to do right now under max pressure.

Pressure is part of life and something that must be experienced and defeated as part of any academic training regimen.

I think it’s important to remember we’re talking about tests being taken mostly by 16-17 year old kids who’ve never been in any real pressure situation. Add to that the fact that every teacher and guidance counselor has been telling them how important it is that they do well on it. Add to that the number of helicopter parents who’ve never allowed little Timmy or Tammy to fail at anything. It’s really not that hard to imagine some of them psyching themselves out and completely screwing the pooch.

 

[dgibbons]

I think it’s important to remember we’re talking about tests being taken mostly by 16-17 year old kids who’ve never been in any real pressure situation. Add to that the fact that every teacher and guidance counselor has been telling them how important it is that they do well on it. Add to that the number of helicopter parents who’ve never allowed little Timmy or Tammy to fail at anything. It’s really not that hard to imagine some of them psyching themselves out and completely screwing the pooch.

And chip's point is basically that's life, get used to it.

 

[CougPatrol]

I think it’s important to remember we’re talking about tests being taken mostly by 16-17 year old kids who’ve never been in any real pressure situation. Add to that the fact that every teacher and guidance counselor has been telling them how important it is that they do well on it. Add to that the number of helicopter parents who’ve never allowed little Timmy or Tammy to fail at anything. It’s really not that hard to imagine some of them psyching themselves out and completely screwing the pooch.

I wonder how China feels about this topic?