Our woes on D result from a talent evaluation failing

[Cougsocal]

It isn't a recruiting problem, "recruiting" being defined as beating other Pac-12 teams for prized recruits. The Zimmer speed defense concept, like the "air raid" for offense, assumes you aren't going to win many recruiting battles. But you must sign the right type of player. On offense, Leach knows exactly what he wants, and those "overlooked" under recruited kids fits the "air raid" template. On defense we have greatly improved our team speed (at the expense of size). However, there is another aspect to the prefect speed D player we have missed the boat on. What made the Steve Gleason's Chris Hayes', Ron Child's, Tory Hunter's, Jason David's, John Rushing's et al and our other mighty mites, far better at playing speed D?

It is a nose for the football, a high football IQ. The perfect speed defense player is not only fast, he stays in position to utilize his speed. The future perfect speed D player, is the fast undersized kids, who is also in on every play of game film. He is the "who is that kid" kid. Speed without the nose for the ball just makes you a Keystone cop on the field, and we have too many of those. If you play speed D well, your lack of size must replaced by numbers on the ball. You can't get numbers on the ball unless you have the football minds as well.

 

[Observer11]

It isn't a recruiting problem, "recruiting" being defined as beating other Pac-12 teams for prized recruits. The Zimmer speed defense concept, like the "air raid" for offense, assumes you aren't going to win many recruiting battles. But you must sign the right type of player. On offense, Leach knows exactly what he wants, and those "overlooked" under recruited kids fits the "air raid" template. On defense we have greatly improved our team speed (at the expense of size). However, there is another aspect to the prefect speed D player we have missed the boat on. What made the Steve Gleason's Chris Hayes', Ron Child's, Tory Hunter's, Jason David's, John Rushing's et al and our other mighty mites, far better at playing speed D?

It is a nose for the football, a high football IQ. The perfect speed defense player is not only fast, he stays in position to utilize his speed. The future perfect speed D player, is the fast undersized kids, who is also in on every play of game film. He is the "who is that kid" kid. Speed without the nose for the ball just makes you a Keystone cop on the field, and we have too many of those. If you play speed D well, your lack of size must replaced by numbers on the ball. You can't get numbers on the ball unless you have the football minds as well.

Zimmer didn't play too many midgets on the D-LIne either.

Doba/Akey switched up a bit when he had DD and Ike at D-end but Rien Long and Jeremy Williams and the like were not tiny.

Hercules was an exception to the rule which hid a ton of deficiencies on the D-line.

 

[fingerdisco]

Zimmer didn't play too many midgets on the D-LIne either.

Doba/Akey switched up a bit when he had DD and Ike at D-end but Rien Long and Jeremy Williams and the like were not tiny.

Hercules was an exception to the rule which hid a ton of deficiencies on the D-line.

Holmes, Bender, Sasa, Eaton, Long, etc.--we put some big kids in the middle of the D line.

 

[Cougsocal]

Zimmer didn't play too many midgets on the D-LIne either.

Doba/Akey switched up a bit when he had DD and Ike at D-end but Rien Long and Jeremy Williams and the like were not tiny.

Hercules was an exception to the rule which hid a ton of deficiencies on the D-line.

DeWayne Patterson was a Zimmer, light kid, and our all time sack leader. So the small fast DE was also a Zimmer concept. It is much easier to recruit two, two gap, DTs, than four. Granted, I'd give my left nut to have the quality of DLs that Price had, right now. But we'd be 5-1, at least, now if we had Rushing, Mobley, Hunter and Burns in our secondary. You can't say the same if we had Patterson, Shavies, Eaton and Sasa. This defense's problems starts with its back 8. Teams aren't setting season/career high rush totals against us, they are having season/career passing games. We just made DTR, Huntley and Daniels, three highly suspect passing QBs, look like world beaters, to the tune of 1200 yards plus combined.

 

[Glad Cougar]

While I'll agree the back 8 are undertalented/underperforming, the DL isn't helping matters. The lack of a pash rush combined with poor tackling/fighting off blocks is allowing RBs to have big days, too. There really isn't one positive on the defense right now. I'm hoping there is enough talent that can be coached up (i.e. Brown, Kwete, Hobbs) to at least give us an average defense.

Glad Cougar

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

DeWayne Patterson was a Zimmer, light kid, and our all time sack leader. So the small fast DE was also a Zimmer concept. It is much easier to recruit two, two gap, DTs, than four. Granted, I'd give my left nut to have the quality of DLs that Price had, right now. But we'd be 5-1, at least, now if we had Rushing, Mobley, Hunter and Burns in our secondary. You can't say the same if we had Patterson, Shavies, Eaton and Sasa. This defense's problems starts with its back 8. Teams aren't setting season/career high rush totals against us, they are having season/career passing games. We just made DTR, Huntley and Daniels, three highly suspect passing QBs, look like world beaters, to the tune of 1200 yards plus combined.

You're wrong about not rushing on us.

• Northern CO hung 200+ on the ground on the Cougs.
• Season total the D gives up 4.7 yards per attempt.
• Houston, UCLA, Utah and ASU dropped 239,150,192, and 169 respectively.
• We've given up 12 rush TDs compared to 11 through the air.
• Utah and ASU put up 334 and 363 through the air - good/ great games but not "season/career" high games.
• DTR however - the Coug game will go on his sizzle reel for when he declares. In fact, it may be the only thing on his sizzle reel, but man what a reel.

While no doubt the secondary has its issues, the entire defense is down significantly. Whether you want to credit the rushing issues to the DL or the LBs or both, they are certainly culpable as well.

 

[dgibbons]

While I'll agree the back 8 are undertalented/underperforming, the DL isn't helping matters. The lack of a pash rush combined with poor tackling/fighting off blocks is allowing RBs to have big days, too. There really isn't one positive on the defense right now. I'm hoping there is enough talent that can be coached up (i.e. Brown, Kwete, Hobbs) to at least give us an average defense.

Glad Cougar

The positive is there is lots of room for improvement! See how optimistic that was! Exclamation points!!!!

Sacrificing size for speed works at some positions, but not others. You can have undersized LBs, if you have legit DTs. You can have undersized Des, if you have legit DTs. You can have undersized safeties if you have legit DTs.

The common denominator is legit DTs. Quality DTs can mask deficiencies elsewhere. Quality LBs can look like bums when they have to fight off blocks every play. Whoever was in charge of the D had to get Misi off the field. I'm not against loyalty to the seniors and all that, but this wasn't a close call. John Tippins, Colin Henderson, Robert Lewis, Kyle Sweet to some extent, all faced getting their PT reduced because someone younger had more talent.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

The positive is there is lots of room for improvement! See how optimistic that was! Exclamation points!!!!

Sacrificing size for speed works at some positions, but not others. You can have undersized LBs, if you have legit DTs. You can have undersized Des, if you have legit DTs. You can have undersized safeties if you have legit DTs.

The common denominator is legit DTs. Quality DTs can mask deficiencies elsewhere. Quality LBs can look like bums when they have to fight off blocks every play. Whoever was in charge of the D had to get Misi off the field. I'm not against loyalty to the seniors and all that, but this wasn't a close call. John Tippins, Colin Henderson, Robert Lewis, Kyle Sweet to some extent, all faced getting their PT reduced because someone younger had more talent.

The lack of a wide butt, 300lb NT cannot be understated as a reason why the DL is not where they need to be.

They are trying to mask this deficiency by slanting and having (undersized) LBs fill the gaps, which works sometimes depending on what the OL is doing, but sometimes you just need a NT to stand a guy (or two) up and create a traffic jam. He's supposed to have 2 gap responsibility and ours simply can't and don't, so effectively we're playing a man down. That is huge.

 

[avabob1]

I always chuckle when someone suggests it is about talent evaluation. Especially when it is couched on terms of us not being able to recruit many 4 star kids. What you are really talking about is finding the upside in intangibles. Pretty hard to bat over 500 in that category no matter how good you are. Bennetts were the best I have seen in hoops, and if you take the entire 6 years they were less than 500 on under the radar kids.

 

[cougcowboy]

We thought we had one in McDougal. That is the biggest mystery to me. Freshman All american, great reviews from his redshirt year,... Yet no production

 

[froropmkr72]

I always chuckle when someone suggests it is about talent evaluation. Especially when it is couched on terms of us not being able to recruit many 4 star kids. What you are really talking about is finding the upside in intangibles. Pretty hard to bat over 500 in that category no matter how good you are. Bennetts were the best I have seen in hoops, and if you take the entire 6 years they were less than 500 on under the radar kids.

This is definitely a recruiting problem on defense. Identifying the right type of players that we have legit chance in landing. As Shock has said and Boise St. has said for years....get productive players at their position coming out of high school. "Well, here's a 6-3 kid who plays both ways...might be a productive LB at the next level...not too much production on defense, blah, blah, blah". NO! Take the 6-2 kid who had a gazillion tackles and loves defense. Also getting Dallas Hobbs from Massachusetts was good, but players like this with limited offers has to exist west of the Mississippi. There's been a combination of bad luck recruiting on defense with some bad evaluating of personalities.

 

[Glad Cougar]

We thought we had one in McDougal. That is the biggest mystery to me. Freshman All american, great reviews from his redshirt year,... Yet no production

Don't really know the answer, but I suspect a lot of it has to do with how he practices. Leach has never shied away from keeping a guy on the bench in favor of another player at that position who has worked real hard in practice, even when the benched guy is more talented. Notice how little Tay Martin played again this past weekend? I suspect his on-again, off-again effort during practice was switched off, while Calvin Jackson impressed during the week. A motivated, in-shape McDougle would be nice to have. Maybe the light will turn on for him yet this season.

Glad Cougar

p.s.....I also don't discount the possibility of injuries playing a role in who gets on the field. Leach is airtight on injury info....so maybe McDougle (& Tay Martin) have been hampered by physical ailments.

 

[95coug]

This is very simple. When you're not as talented as the guy across from you, you have to execute better than he does. Right now, we have less talent and worse execution than the other guy.

You have to know your job, where you're supposed to be, and how to beat the other guy. The last few years we've had guys who could do that, or we've had a 'coach on the field' who could fix it. Now, we don't have the guys or the leaders, and it shows.

 

[dgibbons]

Don't really know the answer, but I suspect a lot of it has to do with how he practices. Leach has never shied away from keeping a guy on the bench in favor of another player at that position who has worked real hard in practice, even when the benched guy is more talented. Notice how little Tay Martin played again this past weekend? I suspect his on-again, off-again effort during practice was switched off, while Calvin Jackson impressed during the week. A motivated, in-shape McDougle would be nice to have. Maybe the light will turn on for him yet this season.

Glad Cougar

p.s.....I also don't discount the possibility of injuries playing a role in who gets on the field. Leach is airtight on injury info....so maybe McDougle (& Tay Martin) have been hampered by physical ailments.

Pretty sure Tay has a knee injury.

 

[Fab5Coug]

While I'll agree the back 8 are undertalented/underperforming, the DL isn't helping matters. The lack of a pash rush combined with poor tackling/fighting off blocks is allowing RBs to have big days, too. There really isn't one positive on the defense right now. I'm hoping there is enough talent that can be coached up (i.e. Brown, Kwete, Hobbs) to at least give us an average defense.

Glad Cougar

You don't hemorrhage points on D like we have without problems all over the place.

Saying, "We'd be 5-1 if..." is disingenuous.

 

[Cougsocal]

You're wrong about not rushing on us.

• Northern CO hung 200+ on the ground on the Cougs.
• Season total the D gives up 4.7 yards per attempt.
• Houston, UCLA, Utah and ASU dropped 239,150,192, and 169 respectively.
• We've given up 12 rush TDs compared to 11 through the air.
• Utah and ASU put up 334 and 363 through the air - good/ great games but not "season/career" high games.
• DTR however - the Coug game will go on his sizzle reel for when he declares. In fact, it may be the only thing on his sizzle reel, but man what a reel.

While no doubt the secondary has its issues, the entire defense is down significantly. Whether you want to credit the rushing issues to the DL or the LBs or both, they are certainly culpable as well.

Sorry, Daniels and DTR had the best passing games of their short careers against us. We are the only team Huntley has 300+ on all season, 5 yards short of his career best. His next best game was against Idaho State, 281. Saying that the bigger problem is 511 yards rushing, when you have given up 1200+ and only 1 int to 3 QBs who who have trouble throwing is missing the point. We haven't even played a passing team yet. It's like we giving up 300 yards a game rushing to passing teams.

In conference play we are in the middle, 7th, in rush defense, 6th in sacks, 7th in TFLs, having played the #1 and #3 rush offenses and 11th in pass defense, 1 yard better than UCLA, who had to play us, the best pass offense by a country mile.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

Sorry, Daniels and DTR had the best passing games of their short careers against us. We are the only team Huntley has 300+ on all season, 5 yards short of his career best. His next best game was against Idaho State, 281. Saying that the bigger problem is 511 yards rushing, when you have given up 1200+ and only 1 int to 3 QBs who who have trouble throwing is missing the point. We haven't even played a passing team yet. It's like we giving up 300 yards a game rushing to passing teams.

In conference play we are in the middle, 7th, in rush defense, 6th in sacks, 7th in TFLs, having played the #1 and #3 rush offenses and 11th in pass defense, 1 yard better than UCLA, who had to play us, the best pass offense by a country mile.

I concede, you win.

We are definitely a horrible pass D and a mediocre run D.

FWIW, the P12 website has us at #9 pass ypg and #10 rush ypg in conference. But don't let stats or facts slow you down.

P12 stats

 

[dgibbons]

I concede, you win.

We are definitely a horrible pass D and a mediocre run D.

FWIW, the P12 website has us at #9 pass ypg and #10 rush ypg in conference. But don't let stats or facts slow you down.

P12 stats

May I offer an alternative subject for debate?

A Yugo was worse than an Edsel. PROVE ME WRONG.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

May I offer an alternative subject for debate?

A Yugo was worse than an Edsel. PROVE ME WRONG.

Rebecca Black vs William Hong?

 

[PeteTheChop]

Don't really know the answer, but I suspect a lot of it has to do with how he practices.

One of the local radio guys in the Seattle area said his inside sources told him Lamont MacDougal wasn't an ideal fit for WSU's scheme.

The kid was a freshman All-American and probably could've transferred to any program in the country outside of maybe Alabama.

Maybe that all changes these next several games?

 

[M-I-Coug]

One of the local radio guys in the Seattle area said his inside sources told him Lamont MacDougal wasn't an ideal fit for WSU's scheme.

The kid was a freshman All-American and probably could've transferred to any program in the country outside of maybe Alabama.

Maybe that all changes these next several games?

.

 

[fingerdisco]

Not an ideal fit? And take him completely off the roster? No way. I think, (and nobody knows except the staff), I think it was personal issues. Perhaps it was weed, or some other team violation? Who knows what it was. He got kicked off the team.

Where did you see that he got kicked off the team?

 

[PeteTheChop]

He got kicked off the team.

Crap!

When did this happen?!?

 

[etowncoug]

Not an ideal fit? And take him completely off the roster? No way. I think, (and nobody knows except the staff), I think it was personal issues. Perhaps it was weed, or some other team violation? Who knows what it was. He got kicked off the team.

McDougle is still on the roster.

I've heard McDougal struggles aren't physical, and he looks good in practice. This leads me to believe there is something the coaches want out of the position that he's struggling to grasp and at some point it'll click for him and he's going to be very good. He has all the tools to be a success.

 

[cougarhawk1]

I think its fair to say McDougal has some fitness issues, as he gets gassed easily. He needs to work hard in the offseason to get in good shape.

 

[froropmkr72]

McDougle is still on the roster.

I've heard McDougal struggles aren't physical, and he looks good in practice. This leads me to believe there is something the coaches want out of the position that he's struggling to grasp and at some point it'll click for him and he's going to be very good. He has all the tools to be a success.

 

[PeteTheChop]

I've heard McDougal struggles aren't physical.

I think its fair to say McDougal has some fitness issues,

???

 

[425cougfan]

One of the local radio guys in the Seattle area said his inside sources told him Lamont MacDougal wasn't an ideal fit for WSU's scheme.

The kid was a freshman All-American and probably could've transferred to any program in the country outside of maybe Alabama.

Maybe that all changes these next several games?

WSU's scheme that Claeys was trying to put in place, or speed D / Grinch-style principles?

 

[PeteTheChop]

Then WITF are they saying he got kicked?

See M-I’s post above.

He seemed very clear that MacDougal had been sent packing.

 

[PeteTheChop]

WSU's scheme that Claeys was trying to put in place, or speed D / Grinch-style principles?

Good question 425.

I was under the impression DCTC more or less stuck with DCAG's "Speed D" with the thought being "if it ain't broke..."

I didn't sense Claeys was determined to break from what worked for WSU prior to his arrival in 2018. Would that be accurate?

 

[dgibbons]

Not an ideal fit? And take him completely off the roster? No way. I think, (and nobody knows except the staff), I think it was personal issues. Perhaps it was weed, or some other team violation? Who knows what it was. He got kicked off the team.

He played against ASU. Not sure why they took him off the depth chart.

 

[PeteTheChop]

He played against ASU. Not sure why they took him off the depth chart.

So is MacDougal off the team or only off the depth chart?

Hope this gets worked out.

Freshman All-Americans are nice to have.

 

[dgibbons]

So is MacDougal off the team or only off the depth chart?

Hope this gets worked out.

Freshman All-Americans are nice to have.

He played against ASU.

 

[PeteTheChop]

He played against ASU.

Thanks dgibbons.

Hopefully M-I will be back to clarify.

 

[froropmkr72]

See M-I’s post above.

He seemed very clear that MacDougal had been sent packing.

OK, as we whistle past the defensive commit graveyard. All the names of the fallen. There's there's the list of players who have never seen the field. Maybe Leach should delve into free agency. If you can't beat'em ...join'em.

 

[etowncoug]

Thanks dgibbons.

Hopefully M-I will be back to clarify.

McDougle wasn't on the pre-ASU depth chart but played against ASU. He's still listed on the roster.

You'd be surprised how much gossip and drama circulates around a football team over the course of the season. I'd wait for a comment from the SID before panicking based on a rumor.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

McDougle is still on the roster.

I've heard McDougal struggles aren't physical, and he looks good in practice. This leads me to believe there is something the coaches want out of the position that he's struggling to grasp and at some point it'll click for him and he's going to be very good. He has all the tools to be a success.

Thinking outside the box here... maybe try him at DE?

Good question 425.

I was under the impression DCTC more or less stuck with DCAG's "Speed D" with the thought being "if it ain't broke..."

I didn't sense Claeys was determined to break from what worked for WSU prior to his arrival in 2018. Would that be accurate?

You were under that impression because DCTC said as much when he arrived, so that was completely true. Until it wasn't. Which apparently was sometime around fall camp.

 

[PeteTheChop]

You were under that impression because DCTC said as much when he arrived, so that was completely true. Until it wasn't. Which apparently was sometime around fall camp.

Good clarification, Bleed.

Still unfathomable that basically one unfortunate quarter of football against UCLA led to that entire predicament.

Not hard to imagine WSU undefeated right now had there been a different finish against the Bruins.

 

[Cougsocal]

I concede, you win.

We are definitely a horrible pass D and a mediocre run D.

FWIW, the P12 website has us at #9 pass ypg and #10 rush ypg in conference. But don't let stats or facts slow you down.

P12 stats

Double checked -- In conference, 7th against the run, 170.3 per game, better than USC, Cal, UW, UA and OSU, 11th against the pass, 401.3 per game only 1 yard better than UCLA, whose numbers are inflated by giving up 570 yards to us. Sorry BCG, you not me, got it flat wrong. But what the hell, create your own reality, where our rush D is the really problem. If there is an upside to our pass D, we were decent against our non-conference foes. And I will conceded that because we don't have any type of pass defense, teams probably don't see the need to run the ball -- our rush D totals would be higher if weren't giving up 400+ yards per game, in conference, through the air.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

Good clarification, Bleed.

Still unfathomable that basically one unfortunate quarter of football against UCLA led to that entire predicament.

Not hard to imagine WSU undefeated right now had there been a different finish against the Bruins.

Double checked -- In conference, 7th against the run, 170.3 per game, better than USC, Cal, UW, UA and OSU, 11th against the pass, 401.3 per game only 1 yard better than UCLA, whose numbers are inflated by giving up 570 yards to us. Sorry BCG, you not me, got it flat wrong. But what the hell, create your own reality, where our rush D is the really problem. If there is an upside to our pass D, we were decent against our non-conference foes. And I will conceded that because we don't have any type of pass defense, teams probably don't see the need to run the ball -- our rush D totals would be higher if weren't giving up 400+ yards per game, in conference, through the air.

I said "in conference" but I didn't mean conference play, so my mistake. I meant to say compared to the conference, against all teams non-cons included.

Of course my parameters support my argument and yours support yours, but I'll concede AGAIN. You win.