just watched the seattle u game.
, no defense a complete joke. kent needs to go, now
, no defense a complete joke. kent needs to go, now
pathetic effort
- Thread starter longtimecoug
- Start date
I did not watch the game. A long day and when i heard that Franks was not going to play i went to bed. Interesting that people s hopes were cautiously high and than attack with a vengeance. I wonder if some people wish that they had taken me up on my bet offer? 
. Since i did not watch the game i will say that one game does not a season make.
. Since i did not watch the game i will say that one game does not a season make.
It was a brutal game to watch except for the first 10 min of the second half. In hindsight, probably not surprising. We have 2 seniors with any experience, and one didnt play. The other had a rough game. I dont like Daniels with the ball in his hands. He is a very good catch and shoot guy, but not explosive enough to become a slasher at this point in his career.
Not really many bright spots. Kunc was a little overwhelmed in his first high energy D-1 game. Elleby reminds me of Mike Bush ad a frosh. No jumper, and has trouble
finishing, but the talent and energy is there.
Wade looked good, just the kind of guy we need. He can finish and has a decent jumper, but not out to 3 point range. Ali looked better, and will be good, but not ready to takeover the way a pg needs to in a game like this.
Skaggs is a liability unless he is knocking down 5 or 6 threes. No offensive flow when he is in the game. He hit two big threes to help us take a 3 point lead, over coming a 9 point deficit, then put up 3 bricks down the stretch and had a turnover.
We probably win this game by close to double digits with Franks presence. Wouldnt even need his scoring, just his stability. Without him for any length of time we are brutally young.
Not really many bright spots. Kunc was a little overwhelmed in his first high energy D-1 game. Elleby reminds me of Mike Bush ad a frosh. No jumper, and has trouble
finishing, but the talent and energy is there.
Wade looked good, just the kind of guy we need. He can finish and has a decent jumper, but not out to 3 point range. Ali looked better, and will be good, but not ready to takeover the way a pg needs to in a game like this.
Skaggs is a liability unless he is knocking down 5 or 6 threes. No offensive flow when he is in the game. He hit two big threes to help us take a 3 point lead, over coming a 9 point deficit, then put up 3 bricks down the stretch and had a turnover.
We probably win this game by close to double digits with Franks presence. Wouldnt even need his scoring, just his stability. Without him for any length of time we are brutally young.
As WSU fans we tend to go all or nothing! I was not overly impressed with the Nichols state win but I’m also not throwing in the towel because of a loss to Seattle U without Franks. We will win most preseason games if Franks is healthy but imo this team will struggle to compete with any PAC 12 team. I have mentioned it before but I’ll say it again if Franks had left or if he is injured this is possibly the worst PAC 12 roster I’ve ever seen for sure the worst in the league this year. Our freshmen are solid and will develope into good players but they are not close to being instant program changers and our JC guys should be being used to fill holes not as a foundation. They simply are not on par with the rest of the league.
Its literally one of the worst losses in school history per RPI. Seattle U is ranked 247!
You and I are probably pretty close in our opinions. We are a woefully inexperienced team without Franks. I do think Wade and Ali are a big cut above any jc kids so far in the Kent era. Elleby is going to be special, but we haven't seen his last abysmal shooting night. Kunc may be a bit further away than I hoped, but he could be really good.
I think your comparison of Elleby to Mike Bush is pretty accurate, I had been struggling to find a comparison and I think you nailed it. I’m very happy with both freshmen I just wish they didn’t have to be thrown to the wolves so early. Ali would have been fine as a back up to Flynn but I don’t see him as a starter and Skaggs so far has allowed his short comings to be pushed to the front instead of being better at hiding them behind the rest of his game.
I was at the game last night. What I saw was a team that enjoyed playing and encouraged one another, but also a team that is not good yet. Part of that is on the coaches, and the other on experience. I don't thing we will ever be great at defense. Kent doesn't emphasize it consistently. His assistants should see through this and emphasize it. Not sure why they don't. Kunc is inexperienced but really looks coachable by his body language. The offense completely broke down with the lack of passing and assists. Lots of one on one game. That won't get you many points. I agree that Elleby, Wade, and Chidom look like potential players.
WSU has its most TALENTED, SKILLED, ATHLETIC JC, Freshman, players in Kent's Tenure EVER so far and COMPARABLE to the TALENT, ATHLETICISM, SKILL of Bones, TB's tenures.
The problem is TB, Bone, could, would, should, probably do better then Kent with these players.
Also another problem is LACK OF EXPERIENCE.
LACK OF CHEMISTRY
NEED TIME TO JELL.
And the biggest problem in the last game vs SU: FRANKS DID NOT PLAY.
FRANKS, along with the 1,2,3 other experienced players is, are THE GLUE.
Franks provides EXPERIENCE, LEADERSHIP, MASSIVE PRODUCTION.
WITH FRANKS WSU wins by about 16 to 33 points against one of the weakest nonconference schedules in WSU history where WSU win 9 to 13 game in Nonconference With Franks.
Without Franks, WSU only win 5 to 8 nonconference games.
In Conference with Franks, WSU win about 5 to 7 conference games, and wins by 7 to 14 in its wins, and loses by 4 to 7 in its losses.
Without Franks, WSU only win 2 to 4 games in conference and only win by 2 to 4 points in its wins, and lose by 16 to 33 in its losses
OVERALL WITH FRANKS, WSU wins 9 to 13 in weak nonconference, and 5 to 7 in conference, wins about 16 games overall, goes to CBI.
Without Franks WSU wins only 5 to 8 in nonconference, and only 2 to 4 in conference and only about 7 to 13 wins, probably about 10 wins overall.
So Franks is the GLUE.
Also with Franks, the rest of the talented, athletic team will eventually play better towards the end of the year.
And NEXT YEAR, with Franks, and JC's to plug holes, the team SHOULD DEFINATELY WIN AT LEAST 17 TO 19, GO TO CBI/NIT.
The problem is thats been the case for MOST of Kents Tenure, and hasnt done what he should have been able to do.
The problem is that Kent should have been able to recruit better.
Develop players better
Coach X O's, players, games better
Do better on both offense, defense.
And because Kent has done such a bad job of that, thats why Kent needs to be fired.
And since Eastman, Bone who were fired, would have done a better job then Kent at recruiting, with Kents recruits, and probably would have won at least 16 to 19 games, and CBI/NITs, with Kent's teams, then thats another reason why Kent should be fired
UNLESS KENT CAN WIN AT LEAST 16 GAMES CBI.
Which Kent will probably do AS LONG AS FRANKS PLAYS ALMOST EVERY GAME.
The problem is TB, Bone, could, would, should, probably do better then Kent with these players.
Also another problem is LACK OF EXPERIENCE.
LACK OF CHEMISTRY
NEED TIME TO JELL.
And the biggest problem in the last game vs SU: FRANKS DID NOT PLAY.
FRANKS, along with the 1,2,3 other experienced players is, are THE GLUE.
Franks provides EXPERIENCE, LEADERSHIP, MASSIVE PRODUCTION.
WITH FRANKS WSU wins by about 16 to 33 points against one of the weakest nonconference schedules in WSU history where WSU win 9 to 13 game in Nonconference With Franks.
Without Franks, WSU only win 5 to 8 nonconference games.
In Conference with Franks, WSU win about 5 to 7 conference games, and wins by 7 to 14 in its wins, and loses by 4 to 7 in its losses.
Without Franks, WSU only win 2 to 4 games in conference and only win by 2 to 4 points in its wins, and lose by 16 to 33 in its losses
OVERALL WITH FRANKS, WSU wins 9 to 13 in weak nonconference, and 5 to 7 in conference, wins about 16 games overall, goes to CBI.
Without Franks WSU wins only 5 to 8 in nonconference, and only 2 to 4 in conference and only about 7 to 13 wins, probably about 10 wins overall.
So Franks is the GLUE.
Also with Franks, the rest of the talented, athletic team will eventually play better towards the end of the year.
And NEXT YEAR, with Franks, and JC's to plug holes, the team SHOULD DEFINATELY WIN AT LEAST 17 TO 19, GO TO CBI/NIT.
The problem is thats been the case for MOST of Kents Tenure, and hasnt done what he should have been able to do.
The problem is that Kent should have been able to recruit better.
Develop players better
Coach X O's, players, games better
Do better on both offense, defense.
And because Kent has done such a bad job of that, thats why Kent needs to be fired.
And since Eastman, Bone who were fired, would have done a better job then Kent at recruiting, with Kents recruits, and probably would have won at least 16 to 19 games, and CBI/NITs, with Kent's teams, then thats another reason why Kent should be fired
UNLESS KENT CAN WIN AT LEAST 16 GAMES CBI.
Which Kent will probably do AS LONG AS FRANKS PLAYS ALMOST EVERY GAME.
During the LAST 1,2,3 years, 1/2, half, of Eastman's Tenure, only Graham recruited worse then Eastman.
BUT During the FIRST HALF of Eastman's Tenure, he Eastman recruited better then Kent.
Your forgetting Shamon Antrum, others who are, were, way better then Kent's Recruits, but not as good as Bone's, Bennet's recruits, but better then Kent's, Graham's recruits.
BUT During the FIRST HALF of Eastman's Tenure, he Eastman recruited better then Kent.
Your forgetting Shamon Antrum, others who are, were, way better then Kent's Recruits, but not as good as Bone's, Bennet's recruits, but better then Kent's, Graham's recruits.
Watching the game yesterday, live and in person, I was extremely disappointed with the result. However, I walked out of the arena feeling we outplayed Seattle U in every area of the game other than shooting.
Sure enough, we tied then on rebounds despite shooting 30% on the night. We grabbed 18 offensive rebounds (when we the last time we did that, let alone in a loss?) Our 14 turnovers were bad, but we forced 17. The energy and effort were great. We simply could make a clutch shot down the stretch. I can think of several occasions where if they simply knock down the wide open jumper, it creates a completely different game down the stretch.
Several takeaways from the game:
1) Team missed Robo something fierce today. He could have taken control of the game early while the team was getting it's sea legs. Malachi Flynn's hero ball would have helped as well.
2) Ahmed Ali is going to be good, but he's playing a little frantic. He's crazy quick. Didn't turn the ball over. Got to the line. But his shots haven't found rhythm and he picked up some dumb fouls. He's going to be the teams second best player this year.
3) Isaiah Wade is a really good rebounder. He got 10 rebounds but at least half were due to superior positioning and effort. Most of his offensive value is going to be due to hustle as his jumper is a work in progress. If he develops this though, look out.
4) Vionte Daniels as second banana probably won't be a thing. Still a great defender, but I don't see him as an effective point guard.
5) 15 minutes a game for Carter Skaggs is just about right. 25 is way too much.
6) Chidom hassles and harasses on the defensive end. No ability to create his own shot. Looks a lot better than last year.
7) Elleby looks special, but is going to make freshman mistakes at times. Most of his offensive value will be hustle.
8) Pollard picked up two quick dumb fouls. I don't see much of a role for him as Wade and Chidom are better on both ends of the floor.
9) I'm surprised Jervae Robinson isn't playing more. I think he could be the true point guard this team needed last night to get everyone going. Too many stretches of the game where neither Ali or Robinson were on the floor.
10) Marvin Cannon looks taller than 6-5. Really raw on offense. Doesnt seem to have a feel for that end of the floor.
11) Kunc didn't look good at all. Ernie was wise to quickly pull him. He'll have better showings.
Sure enough, we tied then on rebounds despite shooting 30% on the night. We grabbed 18 offensive rebounds (when we the last time we did that, let alone in a loss?) Our 14 turnovers were bad, but we forced 17. The energy and effort were great. We simply could make a clutch shot down the stretch. I can think of several occasions where if they simply knock down the wide open jumper, it creates a completely different game down the stretch.
Several takeaways from the game:
1) Team missed Robo something fierce today. He could have taken control of the game early while the team was getting it's sea legs. Malachi Flynn's hero ball would have helped as well.
2) Ahmed Ali is going to be good, but he's playing a little frantic. He's crazy quick. Didn't turn the ball over. Got to the line. But his shots haven't found rhythm and he picked up some dumb fouls. He's going to be the teams second best player this year.
3) Isaiah Wade is a really good rebounder. He got 10 rebounds but at least half were due to superior positioning and effort. Most of his offensive value is going to be due to hustle as his jumper is a work in progress. If he develops this though, look out.
4) Vionte Daniels as second banana probably won't be a thing. Still a great defender, but I don't see him as an effective point guard.
5) 15 minutes a game for Carter Skaggs is just about right. 25 is way too much.
6) Chidom hassles and harasses on the defensive end. No ability to create his own shot. Looks a lot better than last year.
7) Elleby looks special, but is going to make freshman mistakes at times. Most of his offensive value will be hustle.
8) Pollard picked up two quick dumb fouls. I don't see much of a role for him as Wade and Chidom are better on both ends of the floor.
9) I'm surprised Jervae Robinson isn't playing more. I think he could be the true point guard this team needed last night to get everyone going. Too many stretches of the game where neither Ali or Robinson were on the floor.
10) Marvin Cannon looks taller than 6-5. Really raw on offense. Doesnt seem to have a feel for that end of the floor.
11) Kunc didn't look good at all. Ernie was wise to quickly pull him. He'll have better showings.
I think that about 2-7 minutes a game is about right for Skaggs. He is not a D1 player and he hurts the team way more than he helps it. Cannon could use the minutes he is getting.They need to settle down I am sure that Elleby was pressing trying to impress the home folks We will see how they come together after the NMSU game.NMSU has two or three very quick guards . They lost to St Marys but were the better team They are also a very young team.
Skaggs is by far the teams best spot up shooter. His catch and shoot is extremely quick, he makes a high percentage of them, and he passes well enough to force teams to adjust to having him on the court. Defensively, he forces the team to play zone which can work for shorter stretches. But the longer he's in the game, the more time our opponents have to find the right combination of personnel to exploit the weaknesses he has in his game.
No surprise we miss Flynn because we don't have many scorers who can consistently score on their own beyond Franks. They will have to go to Skaggs until others step up or we start to score out of an actual offense. I'm not holding my breath on the latter.
Hoping it's just a case of being early for Ali. He can obviously shoot at minimum and I think he will figure it out. There's also that "banged up" comment so maybe health is an issue. Still surprised Daniels has become the backup point guard. Win or lose these are games we need to get all the new guys minutes.
Elleby's not a good shooter and that probably won't change year 1 but there's so much to like in his game. He should attack the rim at the moment though.
Chidom's starting out a bit like Franks in his sophomore year at least from 3. His shots look like they should fall more consistently IMO.
I don't like the 1-3-1 defense and haven't since last year other than for short stretches. Too many gaps to expose and there were stretches when Ali was the inside 1. Pac 12 offenses will score at will against it although that might end up the case whatever defense we run.
Offensively we miss Flynn and need Franks on the floor. I don't think many on this board are surprised that's the case.
Hoping it's just a case of being early for Ali. He can obviously shoot at minimum and I think he will figure it out. There's also that "banged up" comment so maybe health is an issue. Still surprised Daniels has become the backup point guard. Win or lose these are games we need to get all the new guys minutes.
Elleby's not a good shooter and that probably won't change year 1 but there's so much to like in his game. He should attack the rim at the moment though.
Chidom's starting out a bit like Franks in his sophomore year at least from 3. His shots look like they should fall more consistently IMO.
I don't like the 1-3-1 defense and haven't since last year other than for short stretches. Too many gaps to expose and there were stretches when Ali was the inside 1. Pac 12 offenses will score at will against it although that might end up the case whatever defense we run.
Offensively we miss Flynn and need Franks on the floor. I don't think many on this board are surprised that's the case.
I am hoping that Ali settles down and starts to take control of the team I have always seen the point guard as the guy who sets the tempo both offensively and defensively Kent is relying on guys like Skaggs and Daniels who should see their roles diminishing rather than increasing. They need players who can create their own shots.They are both limited in their games and have physical limitations as well. For the team to grow Kent needs to start to play his newcomers more.
I agree we rely to much on Skaggs and Daniels but that’s not their fault.... is simply a product of terrible recruiting! who is going to play ahead of Daniels???? Skaggs I could see his minutes dropping if others step up but we don’t have players that are better than him right now. Sorry I like Elleby and his up side but he is an average PAC 12 recruit at best. Playing well against lower level competition doesn’t impress me. He is the type of player we need to get, but we need 6 or 7 guys like him just to be an average PAC 12 team. We can’t talk about how great a coach Kent is and then slam players he recruited and playing time he is giving those players. He is 5 years into this it’s all on him now.
At this point I’m not seeing Daniels or even Skaggs minutes going away. We just aren’t there yet. Kunc picking it up would help. Robinson as well. Cannon helps the defense but I don’t think he’s even attempted a shot yet.
I dont see Daniels as a weak spot, but I dont like seeing him handling the ball so much. He is an asset as a catch and shoot guy. Not so much as s ball handler. As much as I love shooters, Skaggs shot selection is so bad that it negates the threes he does hit. Last night after the 2 big threes he did hit, he put up an air ball, and turnover down the stretch.
Elleby may be an average Pac 23 talent, but his energy defense and ability to get others involved is going to mske him special
Elleby may be an average Pac 23 talent, but his energy defense and ability to get others involved is going to mske him special
Agree. We have had players of Franks caliber or better before, and I dont ever remember a team that could lose that player and not be vulnerable to having an outing like Wednesday. Especially bad because most of the rest of the talent was first year players this time. Next years team with Ali, Wade, Elleby, and Kunc probably overcomes a team like SU on the road.
Not giving Ernie a pass here, just pointing out the history of WSU hoops.
Not giving Ernie a pass here, just pointing out the history of WSU hoops.
