Per FootballScoop, another Cougs asst.coach could be departing

[Coug1990]

He was a running back coach. I think that is where Leach would have preferred him. He had Mastro, so could not put him there. He tried to take care of him at OL. I think with Mastro gone, Leach had an opportunity to move him there. He was paid well at offensive line. I do not know what he would make as the running back. Mastro made less. It was a chance to improve the line coach position. I think it disappointed Leach that he had carried him for five years and then he leave for a job that will last maybe one year.

The Texas Tech coach is on thin ice. When he was hired he was supposed to take TT back to the Leach glory days. The previous TT RB coach is now a head coach at a small Texas college. Maybe he thinks in a year he can get one of the small Texas college jobs.

I think if Leach has a weakness he takes care of coaches, that do not that do not fully appreciate him.

I don't agree. I believe Coach Leach believes that McGuire was doing fine coaching the offense line.

Leach has moved on from coaches at WSU and TTU that weren't pulling their weight. Setencich, Breske and Russell come immediately to mind.

Also, listening to what Leach said tells us he didn't want him to leave.

 

[Tx64]

I don't agree. I believe Coach Leach believes that McGuire was doing fine coaching the offense line.

Leach has moved on from coaches at WSU and TTU that weren't pulling their weight. Setencich, Breske and Russell come immediately to mind.

Also, listening to what Leach said tells us he didn't want him to leave.

I think I said he was disappointed that he was leaving.

 

[froropmkr72]

As long as they are hard working recruiters. Matt Moore has history with Leach. The Toledo guy does not.

Matt's also an OC now and may not want to give his title away.

 

[Tx64]

Matt's also an OC now and may not want to give his title away.

Your right, but Troy is not the big time. PAC 12 and probably more money. I think he coach the OL for 5 successful years under Leach at TT. Titles are overrated.

 

[dgibbons]

You’re wrong. Tell me, when will WSU have another Outland Trophy finalist? Never again is probably the answer. Where was the running game? Where were the ugly yards in the red zone? You wanna take some heat off the pass rush? Why wasn’t there a trap called???

They had 3 kids on the OL that should’ve been able to produce some ground yards and push the offense over the top.

WSU doesn’t have the luxury of missing out on having huge years. WSU doesn’t have so much high end talent that they can afford to let it underachieve.

Not being able to take the next step with your best players on the roster is a disaster. Taking a RB job at another school isn’t a promotion. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was encouraged to move on.

We seem to be on a 15 year cycle. Just sayin.

 

[froropmkr72]

Your right, but Troy is not the big time. PAC 12 and probably more money. I think he coach the OL for 5 successful years under Leach at TT. Titles are overrated.

He's very qualified and only overly qualified if there's a huge difference in opinion. As an OC- Moore ran 412 times and passed 460. He ran 47% of the time. Just saying. Love for it to happen, but....

 

[Tx64]

He's very qualified and only overly qualified if there's a huge difference in opinion. As an OC- Moore ran 412 times and passed 460. He ran 47% of the time. Just saying. Love for it to happen, but....

You run based on two things: 1. How many defenders are in the box. 2. How well can your OL control the line of scrimmage. Leach is not against running. He will do whatever is going to give his team the best chance to win. As the offensive line improves so will the running game.

Hayden Fry ran the ball at SMU and Iowa, but preached the passing game at NTSU. He could not control the line of scrimmage with the players he could get at NTSU.

 

[froropmkr72]

You run based on two things: 1. How many defenders are in the box. 2. How well can your OL control the line of scrimmage. Leach is not against running. He will do whatever is going to give his team the best chance to win. As the offensive line improves so will the running game.

Hayden Fry ran the ball at SMU and Iowa, but preached the passing game at NTSU. He could not control the line of scrimmage with the players he could get at NTSU.

1. did count the number of times there was 8 in the box this year compared to 2016'? 2. didn't we go into the season thinking we had a large Oline that could control the line of scrimmage? Someone was against running the ball as much as we did last season. 3. I don't care about Hayden Fry. In the 1970's...teams threw the ball a whole lot less than they do these days.

Don't want to sound snotty, but coaches do have philosophy differences and the older they get...the less apt they are to changing their minds.

 

[ElComanche]

Interesting i saw one recruiting rank of colleges. WSU s crop was ranked at 44 while TT s ranking was at 71. That is not good news for the Red Raider staff.

 

[Tx64]

Interesting i saw one recruiting rank of colleges. WSU s crop was ranked at 44 while TT s ranking was at 71. That is not good news for the Red Raider staff.

They are certainly not recruiting as well as Leach did there.

 

[Tx64]

1. did count the number of times there was 8 in the box this year compared to 2016'? 2. didn't we go into the season thinking we had a large Oline that could control the line of scrimmage? Someone was against running the ball as much as we did last season. 3. I don't care about Hayden Fry. In the 1970's...teams threw the ball a whole lot less than they do these days.

Don't want to sound snotty, but coaches do have philosophy differences and the older they get...the less apt they are to changing their minds.

If you read the NFL evaluations of the linemen you would know we were weak at least one position. Why someone else could not step up and take that position I do not know. All it takes is one weak link, if your opponents figure it out, for it to be exploited. Coaches are not going to knock their linemen publicly, unless they are trying to run them off, as they are all the got and were recruited by them. Remember when the number of stars did not matter. If you cannot get the stars, you down play it. That being said, I think Leach's team has done a great job of evaluating talent and have guessed right on some project players. They have also done a great job of developing their players to their maximum.

You can make a player quicker, but can you make them quick enough? You can make a player more flexible, but can you make them flexible enough? You cannot make a player fast, they either have it or not. They were getting lower mid and lower level Division 1 players, now they are getting mid-level players and outstanding projects, that other teams do not want to put the time in to develop. This being said, their recruiting coordinator is brilliant. As the winning continues and the coaches stay fresh the recruiting will get better.

 

[425cougfan]

1. did count the number of times there was 8 in the box this year compared to 2016'? 2. didn't we go into the season thinking we had a large Oline that could control the line of scrimmage? Someone was against running the ball as much as we did last season. 3. I don't care about Hayden Fry. In the 1970's...teams threw the ball a whole lot less than they do these days.

Don't want to sound snotty, but coaches do have philosophy differences and the older they get...the less apt they are to changing their minds.

Salmonson and Maiguoia were pretty bad compared to their predecessors. Two weak links out of five made our OL pretty awful this year, even though we still had two NFL candidates and one other pretty solid starter.

 

[froropmkr72]

Salmonson and Maiguoia were pretty bad compared to their predecessors. Two weak links out of five made our OL pretty awful this year, even though we still had two NFL candidates and one other pretty solid starter.

and that was it? Come on now. If the number of oline recruits goes up year after year and then the next year's recruits are better than the previous year's recruits.......what's the explanation?

 

[425cougfan]

and that was it? Come on now. If the number of oline recruits goes up year after year and then the next year's recruits are better than the previous year's recruits.......what's the explanation?

I'm not saying McGuire was a great coach (or wasn't), in case I gave that impression ... just saying that from what I saw, and from what people who played OL told me, the main problem was that the two weak links were getting their butts kicked way too often and that led to most of the problems we saw with the OL last year. It's on Leach and the other coaches to recruit and avoid said weak links, of course, or to try to coach them up and/or to try to prevent the weak links screwing things up. I don't have any strong views on McGuire's OL coaching, and with recruiting, I pretty much feel that OL recruiting, like recruiting at nearly all positions at WSU under Leach, has been up to Pac-12 standards but certainly not elite. It also has suffered a lot of attrition.

 

[Tx64]

and that was it? Come on now. If the number of oline recruits goes up year after year and then the next year's recruits are better than the previous year's recruits.......what's the explanation?

I think they thought the big JC transfer would play right guard he was not ready. One of the hardest things to predict is how the weight training will effect the recruits. What injuries will they have and how much will the injuries hold them back. That is why they take so many linemen. That is why I would take another DL now if they can find one. Recruiting is not an exact science. Look at baseball. How many first round picks fail to make it to the majors? The teams pay those kids millions and they still guess wrong.

 

[Tx64]

and that was it? Come on now. If the number of oline recruits goes up year after year and then the next year's recruits are better than the previous year's recruits.......what's the explanation?

You do realise that every other coach in football knows that games are won in the trenches. Everyone is trying to get the best linemen and the best line coaches they can. From experience once you get above junior high, it is more important to have talent than coaching. If you have the talent and reasonable discipline you usually win, that is true in the trenches also. The higher ranked the prospect the more likely they will make it, because they are already closer to being what is needed than the lesser ranked prospects.

 

[kayak15]

I think they thought the big JC transfer would play right guard he was not ready. One of the hardest things to predict is how the weight training will effect the recruits. What injuries will they have and how much will the injuries hold them back. That is why they take so many linemen. That is why I would take another DL now if they can find one. Recruiting is not an exact science. Look at baseball. How many first round picks fail to make it to the majors? The teams pay those kids millions and they still guess wrong.

That was the plan with regard to Valencia. I think the staff knew what they had with Salmonson and knew that they needed an upgrade. They were right about Salmonson, he struggled. And Valencia still couldn't beat him out so what does that tell you about him?

You are right on about recruiting not being an exact science. Don't have the numbers but it seems that about half of the NFL first round picks fail to reach expectations and the pros have years of tape to look at by entire staffs of scouts. Still a number of disappointments on a regular basis.

I noticed that Mauigoa is listed on the roster as being at 315 lbs. If so and the new mass is muscle then maybe he won't be consistently shoved backwards by NTs this year. And if- and it's a big if- they can upgrade at RG then we may be O.K. No more soft spot in the middle. Cannot remember who the kid was who shared a little time with Cody last year but he did well so I am not overly concerned with LG.

 

[random soul]

Noah Osur-Myers might be who you're thinking of, and I suspect he collects one of the guard spots. Who we get elsewhere is harder to figure.

 

[Coug1990]

I think I said he was disappointed that he was leaving.

Yes. Which

I'm not saying McGuire was a great coach (or wasn't), in case I gave that impression ... just saying that from what I saw, and from what people who played OL told me, the main problem was that the two weak links were getting their butts kicked way too often and that led to most of the problems we saw with the OL last year. It's on Leach and the other coaches to recruit and avoid said weak links, of course, or to try to coach them up and/or to try to prevent the weak links screwing things up. I don't have any strong views on McGuire's OL coaching, and with recruiting, I pretty much feel that OL recruiting, like recruiting at nearly all positions at WSU under Leach, has been up to Pac-12 standards but certainly not elite. It also has suffered a lot of attrition.

I do not think it was coaching, it was talent and or inexperience. Yes, there were two weak spots. One player was not quite good enough, the other was a true sophomore that needed more seasoning. Leach can take his time hiring a new coach with recruiting being complete and spring practice doesn't begin until the end of March. For both the OL and RB coach, he can look for a coach who is both a good recruiter and teacher.

 

[froropmkr72]

You do realise that every other coach in football knows that games are won in the trenches. Everyone is trying to get the best linemen and the best line coaches they can. From experience once you get above junior high, it is more important to have talent than coaching. If you have the talent and reasonable discipline you usually win, that is true in the trenches also. The higher ranked the prospect the more likely they will make it, because they are already closer to being what is needed than the lesser ranked prospects.

I'm not saying McGuire was a great coach (or wasn't), in case I gave that impression ... just saying that from what I saw, and from what people who played OL told me, the main problem was that the two weak links were getting their butts kicked way too often and that led to most of the problems we saw with the OL last year. It's on Leach and the other coaches to recruit and avoid said weak links, of course, or to try to coach them up and/or to try to prevent the weak links screwing things up. I don't have any strong views on McGuire's OL coaching, and with recruiting, I pretty much feel that OL recruiting, like recruiting at nearly all positions at WSU under Leach, has been up to Pac-12 standards but certainly not elite. It also has suffered a lot of attrition.

Isn't the point of carrying 18-20 olinemen because you want to have any 10 ready in any given year with about 8 still developing and learning the hardest position on the field? Keeping the 300 lb plus guys projected to compete for starting job the following year...has proven to be a little tough. I hope all the linemen are on the current roster are there in the fall and throughout 2018'.

 

[BiggsCoug]

Isn't the point of carrying 18-20 olinemen because you want to have any 10 ready in any given year with about 8 still developing and learning the hardest position on the field? Keeping the 300 lb plus guys projected to compete for starting job the following year...has proven to be a little tough. I hope all the linemen are on the current roster are there in the fall and throughout 2018'.

I’d wager there isn’t a program in the nation with a legit two deep.

Some schools can use less scholarships on the OL and get production, some schools need to carry more guys to get the same level of production. I think we’ve all seen what happens when you don’t spend $ on the OL.

 

[Tx64]

Isn't the point of carrying 18-20 olinemen because you want to have any 10 ready in any given year with about 8 still developing and learning the hardest position on the field? Keeping the 300 lb plus guys projected to compete for starting job the following year...has proven to be a little tough. I hope all the linemen are on the current roster are there in the fall and throughout 2018'.

I believe Leach tries to have a 8 man rotation at offensive line. Have 8 PAC-12 quality linemen in any year is tough for a school like WSU. It has gotten better. It takes time. The better the recruits the more the make it to the next level (NFL). The more that make it to the next level the easier it will be to recruit. Remember every other team is trying to win in the trenches as well.

 

[Tx64]

I’d wager there isn’t a program in the nation with a legit two deep.

Some schools can use less scholarships on the OL and get production, some schools need to carry more guys to get the same level of production. I think we’ve all seen what happens when you don’t spend $ on the OL.

I could not have said it better. I was at a school one time where the offensive linemen where huge. They had no athletic ability and spent far to little time in the weight room. They were the type that get a coach fired. To the layperson they think we are loaded. It was are first year, we had not been there to develop them. I do not think most people can really evaluate what goes on at the line of scrimmage or what goes into developing them.

 

[froropmkr72]

I could not have said it better. I was at a school one time where the offensive linemen where huge. They had no athletic ability and spent far to little time in the weight room. They were the type that get a coach fired. To the layperson they think we are loaded. It was are first year, we had not been there to develop them. I do not think most people can really evaluate what goes on at the line of scrimmage or what goes into developing them.

I'm making the case that we're NOT loaded. I know the numbers on the roster. Even though they've recruited more linemen....attrition has taken it's tole. Hopefully, a new oline coach can get kids to stick around longer. I believe we carried 14 scholarships for the offensive line after King and Nathan left. If i were Yost or Handel..I'd stick around. There's some scholarship opportunities here.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

I think anyone who's objective would agree that our offensive line development is the weakest part of our team under Leach's tenure. When you consider the number of scholarships that we've devoted to the OL, it's pretty damned bad that in year 6, we've got people saying that at least we had three good ones. WSU had 20 or so verbal commits from 2013 to 2016. That doesn't include Leach's first class. All BS aside.....it sucks that we don't have a better two deep than we do. I'm not going to even think about saying who's to blame for that, but other than getting a lot bigger, our OL has been underwhelming outside of 2016. That group was ok. Sad that 2017 was such a dropoff in comparison.

 

[froropmkr72]

I think anyone who's objective would agree that our offensive line development is the weakest part of our team under Leach's tenure. When you consider the number of scholarships that we've devoted to the OL, it's pretty damned bad that in year 6, we've got people saying that at least we had three good ones. WSU had 20 or so verbal commits from 2013 to 2016. That doesn't include Leach's first class. All BS aside.....it sucks that we don't have a better two deep than we do. I'm not going to even think about saying who's to blame for that, but other than getting a lot bigger, our OL has been underwhelming outside of 2016. That group was ok. Sad that 2017 was such a dropoff in comparison.

So, we're down to 10 scholarships currently on the roster and another 4 coming in in the fall. I'm not going to compare the current 4 guys coming in. You're right....you'd have to be a fly on the wall to know who's to blame.

 

[Tx64]

I think anyone who's objective would agree that our offensive line development is the weakest part of our team under Leach's tenure. When you consider the number of scholarships that we've devoted to the OL, it's pretty damned bad that in year 6, we've got people saying that at least we had three good ones. WSU had 20 or so verbal commits from 2013 to 2016. That doesn't include Leach's first class. All BS aside.....it sucks that we don't have a better two deep than we do. I'm not going to even think about saying who's to blame for that, but other than getting a lot bigger, our OL has been underwhelming outside of 2016. That group was ok. Sad that 2017 was such a dropoff in comparison.

I think if you would recall the earlier recruit we big 2 star linemen. They were projects. A couple really developed others not so much. This year at least they are all 3 star linemen. A couple rated pretty well. Look at the number of stars the defensive linemen have at Washington. Then tell me how bad a job WSU is do. You have to do the best you can with the what you have. Hopefully with the success WSU has had the last three season it will get better. The next offensive line coach needs to be a great technician and a greater recruiter. Unless of course they are a wizard. Leach has a great strength coach, but again you cannot tell how weights will affect projects. The close you can recruit to the finished product the better your line. I do not know when or if WSU will be able to recruit linemen like Washington, USC, Stanford, or even Oregon. Leach will always have to find a way to well with less. No coach will put more emphasis on the offensive line than Leach. He dong the best he can. Certainly better than the recent past. Maybe will begin to understand why we throw the ball rather than run. If we are running the ball, WSU line is better than the other team defensive front.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

I think if you would recall the earlier recruit we big 2 star linemen. They were projects. A couple really developed others not so much. This year at least they are all 3 star linemen. A couple rated pretty well. Look at the number of stars the defensive linemen have at Washington. Then tell me how bad a job WSU is do. You have to do the best you can with the what you have. Hopefully with the success WSU has had the last three season it will get better. The next offensive line coach needs to be a great technician and a greater recruiter. Unless of course they are a wizard. Leach has a great strength coach, but again you cannot tell how weights will affect projects. The close you can recruit to the finished product the better your line. I do not know when or if WSU will be able to recruit linemen like Washington, USC, Stanford, or even Oregon. Leach will always have to find a way to well with less. No coach will put more emphasis on the offensive line than Leach. He dong the best he can. Certainly better than the recent past. Maybe will begin to understand why we throw the ball rather than run. If we are running the ball, WSU line is better than the other team defensive front.

The problem with excusing our mediocrity by saying it was such a bad job when Leach took over is that it ignores that we are heading into year 7......not 3 or 4. Looking at our rushing averages over the past eight years:

2010: 2.6 ypa
2011: 3.1 ypa
2012: 2.0 ypa
2013: 2.9 ypa
2014: 2.0 ypa
2015: 3.6 ypa
2016: 4.3 ypa
2017: 2.9 ypa

This isn't about wizardry or Wulff or anything but poor recruiting and poor development on the OL. Nobody's going to say that our offense in 2011 under Wulff was dynamic, but our rushing offense regressed in 2017 to the point where it was comparable to 2011.......and that's not a compliment. If we had regressed slightly......it would be understandable because you can't expect it to rise every year. For it to drop so much is damning. I can't help but think that the OL coaching change is going to be a positive.

 

[Loyal Coug]

The problem with excusing our mediocrity by saying it was such a bad job when Leach took over is that it ignores that we are heading into year 7......not 3 or 4. Looking at our rushing averages over the past eight years:

2010: 2.6 ypa
2011: 3.1 ypa
2012: 2.0 ypa
2013: 2.9 ypa
2014: 2.0 ypa
2015: 3.6 ypa
2016: 4.3 ypa
2017: 2.9 ypa

This isn't about wizardry or Wulff or anything but poor recruiting and poor development on the OL. Nobody's going to say that our offense in 2011 under Wulff was dynamic, but our rushing offense regressed in 2017 to the point where it was comparable to 2011.......and that's not a compliment. If we had regressed slightly......it would be understandable because you can't expect it to rise every year. For it to drop so much is damning. I can't help but think that the OL coaching change is going to be a positive.

Do those figures include QB sacks? Pretty sure they do. Although I have no idea what our sack stats were in the CPW years.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Do those figures include QB sacks? Pretty sure they do. Although I have no idea what our sack stats were in the CPW years.

Sacks:

2010: 51 (2.6 ypa)
2011: 39 (3.1 ypa)
2012: 57 (2.0 ypa)
2013: 32 (2.9 ypa)
2014: 36 (2.0 ypa)
2015: 41 (3.6 ypa)
2016: 30 (4.3 ypa)
2017: 44 (2.9 ypa)

So, there's a correlation between sacks and rushing......but it's not the best predictor. We gave up 5 more sacks in 2015 than 2014 but our yards per rush nearly doubled. There's really just no excuse for our OL sucking as bad as it did in 2017. Frankly, I'm not all that surprised that O'Connell wasn't invited to the combine. I paid attention to his play in a couple of the replays and while he is a force of nature when he obliterated someone right in front of him, it wasn't unusual to see him struggle if he had to move much.

 

[Tx64]

Sacks:

2010: 51 (2.6 ypa)
2011: 39 (3.1 ypa)
2012: 57 (2.0 ypa)
2013: 32 (2.9 ypa)
2014: 36 (2.0 ypa)
2015: 41 (3.6 ypa)
2016: 30 (4.3 ypa)
2017: 44 (2.9 ypa)

So, there's a correlation between sacks and rushing......but it's not the best predictor. We gave up 5 more sacks in 2015 than 2014 but our yards per rush nearly doubled. There's really just no excuse for our OL sucking as bad as it did in 2017. Frankly, I'm not all that surprised that O'Connell wasn't invited to the combine. I paid attention to his play in a couple of the replays and while he is a force of nature when he obliterated someone right in front of him, it wasn't unusual to see him struggle if he had to move much.

That is why O'Connell played guard rather than tackle. I read in the NFL they prefer shorter guard, because the quarterback will not be able to see over them. The point I was trying to make was we are able to take fewer projects (higher risk) recruits. The line should continue to get better. Remember too that some of recruits never made it in, get injured or did not pan out. Do I think we could get a better offensive line coach? Yes I do. It will be easier for Leach to find coaches now than when he first came less risk. Any coach hired needs to be a relentless recruiter. Some of the coaches that Leach has hired have not been as productive a recruiter, as they were in their last job. It does no one any good to trash coaches that have left. That said, I do think for the most part he has ungraded the staff with each new hire. Mele has done a surprising job of recruiting. Our receiver coaches have done well. I think our new secondary coaches will be solid recruiters. Wilson is a good recruiter. We lost a couple good recruiters and need those recruiters replaced. It just takes time. Fans are becoming impatient. Assuming we get good quarterback play next year, I think there will be another 8+ season. If the quarterbacks we have stay healthy I think a starter can come from within. They will just be young. Falk was young once also.