He is men's version the Lia Galdeira. She was going to take the lion share of shots, regardless of whether she was on or not. It was amazing or it was brutal. I would love Bonton to, in his final games as a Coug, to take the next step as a player, and recognize when he is feeling it and when the isn't. When he isn't, turn facilitator with that amazing speed. and or generate high percent shots. When his shot is going, go for it. Against UCLA, when asked why she decided to take the critical 3 pt. shot, Leger Walker said what? "My shot felt good all game" You know when have it and when you don't. You won't make them all, but knowing and understanding yourself, can make a difference for your team.
The criticism of Bonton is/was legitimate
- Thread starter Cougsocal
- Start date
Disagree. You all have more of a problem with his play than Coach Smith. Scorers keep shooting, even on off nights because there are times that an off night becomes an on night. Plus, I am not for criticizing any player. You want to write that a player had an off night, fine. You want to say they weren't good in the game, sure. You want to say they should have passed instead of taking a shot, sure. But, criticizing a player for being themselves, no. That would be more on the coach who left him in, not on the player.
I can see a little tiny bit of what your saying about Bonton.
He is like that in a couple, few, some games.
But he is not like that in all games.
Also its one thing to say some of the criticism.
But saying Bonton should be Benched, an or that its suppodedly better with Bonton out of the game, then in it, is a extreme overreaction.
Also others have consistently, logically, rationally, factually, etc, explained why that extreme overreaction is wrong.
Also its one thing to criticize Bonton when WSU was losing earlier in the season.
But then WSU started winning more, and Bonton has improved his game.
But despite that, even when WSU is winning, and Bonton is playing well, the illogical criticism of Bonton continues.
Also another thing, you and others have said that he was forcing wild shots, was out of control, was turning the ball over, etc, CONSISTENTLY.
That was earlier. Part of that was HE HAD TO DO THAT.
NOW Bonton doesnt do that as much.
He doesnt force bad shots, passes as much.
It might not look like it at times, because at times he looks out of control when he is not.
What I mean by that is, during a past game break, the announcers talked about how he Bonton is a GYM RAT PRACTICING wild looking forced looking shots, passes, where it might look like he is out of control, but that he is actually in total complete control, making, completing A LOT of those supposedly wild shots, passes.
They showed video footage of that. And I saw that footage, and he was practicing wild, out of control looking shots, passes, and he was making a extremely high percentage of them.
They said he was doing that because he had to, because nobody else was stepping up, etc.
Also the STATS say that Bonton's scoring has gone up, and rebounds, ASSIST, have gone up, and TURNOVERS HAVE GONE DOWN.
in fact against Ore St, even tho Bonton had a off shooting night, he had EIGHT ASSIST.
That's right he had 8 ASSIST. And low, lower turnovers.
8 Assist isnt common in College Basketball. 8 Assist is VERY HIGH, EXTREMELY GOOD.
He Bonton played extremely hard, played his ass off. Played LOCKDOWN DEFENSE, GOT STEALS, GOT LOTS OF REBOUNDS, GOT 8 ASSIST.
But despite that, all the Bonton Naysayers could see, say is "Bonton is a Ball Hog. He is Wild, Out of control, forces things, doesnt get his teammates involved",etc.
That sounds pretty stupid next to a 8 ASSIST STAT LINE.
Also there was a play where BONTON dribble drived into the middle of the paint, and off the dribble threw up a Alley Oop to a EFE Abogidi FLYING OUT of the HEAVENS for a CRUSHING, THUNDEROUS DUNK.
But OH NO BONTON DOESNT, CANT, WONT, ETC, SET UP HIS FELLOW PLAYERS LIKE THAT.
He is a just too damn selfish, etc, to do that.
But THATS WRONG.
HE DOES DO THAT. HE DOES SET UP TEAMMATES. HE DOES SET UP GOOD SHOTS.
HE IS NOT WILD, OUT OF CONTROL A LOT, ALL THE TIME, ETC.
Like even the best players, they, him, have their off nights, their bad shooting nights.
And wjen, if that happens, they find ways to rebound, play good defense, steal the ball, hustle, vet floor burns, dive, get loose balls, block shots, set picks, screens, set up shots, players, get assist, pass the ball well, be a leader, etc, AND KEEP ON SHOOTING.
Bonton did, does all those things.
Without Bonton, WSU would have lost 3 to 6 to 9 more games.
And Kyle Smith agrees with that.
But you Bonton Critics think you know more then Kyle Smith, and you dont know basketball, even when you watch it, and you dont know what to see, look for. That an or you only see what you want to see, and either dont see, forget the good stuff you do see.
Case in point is that ASSIST FROM BONTON TO EFE ABOGIDI FOR THAT THUNDER DUNK.
AS MR SPOCK WOULD SAY YOU BONTON CRITICS ARE EXTREMELY ILLOGICAL
I’m not exactly sure what basketball you are watching but, in my opinion you couldn’t be more off base. Again no coach would ever tell a scorer/ shooter like Bonton to stop shooting.. You have to play the same every game, be consistent.. if you are a shooter/ scorer that’s what you do.. He could be O for 10 and make his next 5 shots... If he is getting doubled or taking crazy shots that’s one thing, but he has to play his game whether he is 10 for 10 or O for 10... Some games your the hero and some games you may be the goat.. That’s how it works. I have watched too many scorers be 2 for 12 at halftime with 4 points and finish with 30+.. it’s obvious he has earned the right to play this way because the coaches keep him out there.. I am not trying to be rude, but I don’t understand how you can watch the games and not realize that we win or lose based on his ability to put the ball in the basket... Other players do not magically become better when he passes them the ball.. In fact if you watch the game he is a far worse player when he tries to drive and pass. That is where most of his turnovers occurr.. He is what he is and that’s who he needs to be...
Obviously people are remembering the game (don't remember which one) where Bonton was out and we played very well with lots of ball movement and won, as well as other times when Bonton would go out for extended periods and we would play very well.
A coach can't read minds, and he doesn't have a back up who can handle the ball as well as deliver assists.
"Scorers" continue to shoot on weak teams only. How often do "scorers" go 2-14 on good teams? Maybe it is the chicken and the egg, cause clearly if a 2-14 slumping shooter remains the best option for a team, they aren't very good. Now, if Bonton was near the top on the team in field goal percentage, I'd say that he should continue to shoot, regardless, because of the stats, but only Jakimovski has a lower shooting percentage among our starting 5. Among the league's top 10 scorers, Bonton has the worst field goal percentage by more than a point, and only one player in the top 15 shoots worst, Akinjo of Arizona.
If Ike can go his entire career shooting 48.7%, 45.7% from 3, playing guard (the gold standard), it is very fair to ask a kid shooting 39.4%, and only 34% from 3, while taking more shots than anyone in the league by a wide margin, whether he should reconsider his shot count and selection, and getting teammates more involved on offense.
There is a "short slump," and then there's a season of sub par shooting. You guys are acting like Bonton is Curry, Miller or Bird revisited, when in reality he isn't shooting 40% on the season and is 37th in the league in shooting percentage, while taking 36 more shots that anyone else in the league.
What are the stats not telling me?
I agree with almost everything your saying.
What the critics will say in response, is that they are not just only talking about missed shooter shots.
They would say that they are talking about FORCED, CRAZY SHOTS, Wild, Out of Control drives, turnovers.
But they are wrong about that too.
Earlier in the season they were temporarily partly right, but thats because it was early season, and nobody was stepping up to score, so Bonton felt like he had force drives, shots, passes, etc, and thus miss crazy bad shots, and turn the ball over.
But by midseason Bonton was PRACTICING those crazy shots, and not only started hitting them in practice, but started making them in game.
In 1 of the recent wins, Bonton made a lot of crazy looking shots, that if he had not made those crazy looking shots, WSU would have probably lost the game.
And Bonton kind of had to shoot those crazy looking shots, because nobody was scoring, and he was being defended well.
Earlier in the season Bonton had a lot of turnovers.
But that also got better mid season to now.
And your right that a lot of those turnovers were from driving, passing, and that he is not as good as that.
Your right that Bonton is not a PG, and that he is probably better at the 2 guard spot, then the PG spot.
But there hasnt been a PG, that coukd get him, Bonton, other players, in position to score, like what a good PG would do, so because of that, even tho Bonton isnt a good PG, he has had to step into that role to go along with his scorer role.
But where I disagree with you is NOW Bonton is better at driving, passing, getting less turnovers now.
Proof of that is getting 8, EIGHT ASSIST in a single game, where he only had 1,2 turnovers, to go along with 2,3,4 steals, and 4,5,6 rebounds.
And Bonton's drive pass, assist to EFE for EFE's THUNDER DUNK, is also PROOF that he Bonton is capable of driving, passing, getting assist, turning the ball over less often, and that he Bonton is getting better at that.
Your right that the Bonton criticism is WRONG, and that wirhout Bonton, WSU would have lost about 2 to 4 to 6 more games, without him.
Also Kyle Smith disagees with the criticism, and continues to give the most minutes to Bonton and Noah Williams.
But hey the critics stupidly think they know more then Kyle Smith, and stupidly dont see the good, and only see the bad that they wrongly think is there, an or that they want to see.
And they forget about things like Bonton's drive, assist to, for EFE's THUNDER DUNK
My only rebuttal is that his overall season stats don't take into account how much better Bonton has been since conference play began. If you just look at conference play, Bonton is shooting 43.5% FG and 40.3% from 3-point area. That makes him 27th in the conference for shooting percentage.....certainly not great, but a lot of guys ahead of him are front court players who take high percentage shots from short distances.
But here's an even closer look at the stats. Bonton has had 3 horrible shooting games out of 12 games in conference play (a combined 7-40 in those 3 games) and that includes the early OSU game back in December. Take away those 3 games, and Bonton is shooting over 50% (77-153) in conference play. To me, that's an acceptable trade off– 3 bad shooting games vs. 9 games when he's making a majority of his shots overall.
Most times, just looking at overall season stats doesn't tell the whole story and quite often ignores important current trends.
Glad Cougar
Another thing the stats are not telling you is this:
40% Shooting is not as bad as you think.
Why?
1. 40% is just barely above the average joe smoe starting college basketball guard at the D1, mid major, P5 level.
The average to just barely below average % is about 39.5%.
That's because College Basketball Guards typically take a LOT of 3 point shots, long 2 point jumpers, mid rangers, floaters, runners, tear droppers, shots that escape being blocked by 7 footers when the guards dribble drive to the basket. They also do take wild looking shots.(Just like JORDAN took, made a lot of wild looking shots)
That is why their % is typically about 39.5% on about average.
So when compared to that, and since Bonton is also a guard who does those typical guard things, Bonton's 40% is really not as bad as you think.
2. 40% is 2 made shots out of every 5 shots. Think about it a scoring guard who takes the majority of, lots of shots, who only has Noah Williams, and 1 other to help, and thus has to do the scoring into heart of good defenses, 40%, or 2 makes out of every 5 shots isnt that bad, and considering the circumtances, might actually be ok, semi good, etc.
3. Your looking at the stats in a vacuum.
Because WSU is well coached. Because the players play good defense, REBOUND extremely well, have a LOT of size, block shots, steal, etc, then while 40%, 2 makes out of every 5 shots isnt awesome, its still just barely good enough to win, and isnt that bad.
Now if this was a 7 footer only doing 40%, or if Bonton as a guard had more support, an or if there were more, better scorers with higher percentages, that were stepping up, etc, then yeah, 40% not as good.
4. And there is what Glad Cougar said that was right(See what he said, reread, accept, remember what he said) I wont repeat his point, he made it very well.
5. There was a guard that Kent was trying to recruit(forget the guards name, but WSU just barely lost out), that shot 38% overall, and about 33% to 38% from 3 point range who after he chose to transfer somewhere else, instead of transfering to WSU, had a great College Career and was drafted into the NBA at his 38% shooting percentage.
So what does the NBA know that you dont?
They know that for a scoring guard, that a 38% or 40% percentage against good defenses, when have little or no help from other scorers, either isnt a bad percentage, or isnt that bad of a percentage.
They also know like Glad Cougar said that sometimes stats like a 40% sometimes doesnt tell the whole story and sometimes ignores current trends and factors, and mitigating circumstances.
I have the feeling that Bonton was overly aware of the loss of Elleby early in the season and forced many shots in an attempt to fill the void. Settled down and things started to go more smoothly. Still has the occasional off day but who doesn't?
The stats are not telling you that he is still there best we have and widely regarded as one of the best in the conference? Stats never tell the whole story.. Your eyes should tell you..
I did not say he was not a better driver. I said the worst part about his game is driving and dishing.. Lots of turnovers when he penetrates because often it is too deep..
Im no basketball guru, but in a 5 man a side game where everyone has to do everything (unlike FB, baseball), there’s a lot more to the story than just stats. Bonton keeps the offense in motion, organizes and keeps the shape of the defense, and is constantly leading even when his shot isn’t there. He’s every bit what Rochestie and Lowe were to their teams, he’s just got a really young team around him unlike they did.
Bonton is maddening but with virtually no other option to run the point, it’s what we’ve got.
Phelps needs to reel in a tough NYC point guard.
They aren't from NYC, but we've signed a PG out of Georgia and Koulibaly will be ready to go next year.
Glad Cougar
“”Scorers” continue to shoot on weak teams only” are you serious? How much basketball do you watch to make a statement like that? Every single day all across the country shooters on great teams have off nights and continue to shoot! It’s what they are suppose to do and it’s what you should be coaching if you are a coach. As a coach you decide playing time and a player can definitely shoot himself out of playing time but when he is in the game, the player has to to play their game.
On another note our amazing freshman on the women’s team going into this game had lower shooting percentages in both 3pt shooting and overall percentages than Bonton, and I sure hope she keeps shooting!
On another note our amazing freshman on the women’s team going into this game had lower shooting percentages in both 3pt shooting and overall percentages than Bonton, and I sure hope she keeps shooting!
Do
Do not bring up facts or stats. I have been arguing this the past couple weeks and have been getting pushback from the real bball experts...
Actually it was the Montana State game, who had just beaten the Huskies, and without Bonton we whupped 'em by almost 30.
Here some stats for you..Bonton one of the most efficient players in Pac 12
Wrong team. It was Montana who beat the Huskies, not the Montana State team we played. Nonetheless, your point is well taken.
Glad Cougar
That was EARLY SEASON, basically a type of PRESEASON.
Also UW has been BAD, so your putting too much stock into Montana St, beating a BAD UW huskies.
And Montana St is a NON DIVISION 1, FCS, BIG SKY college.
WSU is SUPPOSED to BEAT Montana St, etc.
WSU was going to beat Montana St HANDILY WITH Bonton too.
Also there is a BIG difference between:
1. Montana St.
AND
2. ARIZONA, USC, UCLA, STANFORD, OREGON, etc.
The difference is, yes vs Montana St types, yes WSU can, could CONSISTENTLY win without Bonton, or should be able to do so.
But against Arizona, UCLA, Oregon, USC, Stanford, Colorado, Utah, etc, if Bonton is OUT, that's USUALLY A LOSS.
There are of course limited inconsistent exceptions to that, but that's the way it usually is, will be.
If Bonton was OUT for the whole season, from start to end, suspended, injured, redshirted, etc, WSU would lose 2,3,4 more games.
Yeah sure WSU might get lucky and win 1,2 without, because Bonton out all season, but WSU would lose more then WSU would win if Bonton was out all season.
The Media knows that.
The Experts know that.
The Pundits know that.
The WSU coaches know that.
The other Pac 12 coaches, players know that, etc.
There is a reason why the announcers, media, experts, pundits, coaches, etc, say Bonton is good.
Its couple, few, some knee jerk critics, in the MINORITY, who wrongly think Bonton is bad, dont know what they are talking about, and dont realize that stats dont tell the whole story, and that 1 game(Montana State), early in the season does not make their wrong point
They are just going to ignore your stats, just like they ignored Glad Cougar's extremely good point/Stats, etc.
Glad Cougar rightly pointed out if you take away 3 games, that Bonton was 7 makes out of 40 shots, that Bonton was about 77 makes out of 150 shots, about 51%, if I am remembering what Glad Cougar said right.
But they just either ignored, forgot, dismiss, etc, that.
Glad Cougar, and others have brought up facts, stats.
You, and others just either ignore, forget, dont read, dismiss, etc.
So its Glad Cougar who should be saying that, not you.
Go back and reread what Glad Cougar said.
And people wonder why I CAPITALIZE, HIGHLIGHT, UNDERLINE some of what I say.
Its people like you.
I didnt say you were supposedly saying that Bonton supposedly cant drive.
You are saying that Bonton gets a lot of turnovers when he drives and DISHES.
I am saying that I disagree with that.
EARLIER in the SEASON you were right about that.
If what your saying is right, then Bonton would not be averaging about 3.5,4,4.5 assist per game, and wouldnt have gotten 8, EIGHT ASSIST IN A SINGLE GAME, where he only had 1,2,3 turnovers in that game. The line was:
8 Assist, 2,3,4 steals, 4,5,6 rebounds, GOOD DEFENSE, to go along with his about 10 to 13 to 15 to 17 points in that game.
But you, and others CONTINUE TO OVER LOOK 8 ASSIST.
At least your not one of the critics.
The critics say Bonton should shoot less, have better shot selection, should set up other players, etc.
But they ignore a game where Bonton did exactly that.
He shot less. He had better shot selection. He had less turnovers. He moved without the ball well. He set some picks, screens, he drived, dished, had 8 ASSIST, had 2,3,4 steals, had 4,5,6 rebounds, played good defense, scored about 10 to 13 to 15 to 17 points.
But does he Bonton get credit for that, by the critics?
No.
And when I and others point these facts, stats, etc, out?
It gets ignored, forgotten, dismissed, not read, etc.
Its total BS by the critics.
PS:
And they forget, ignore, dismiss, dont read, etc, where I pointed out Bonton's DRIVE DISH, ASSIST ALLEY OOP TO FOR A EFE THUNDER DUNK
Does Bonton drive me nuts at times, hell ya, but regardless we are a far better team with him on the floor than without him. There are times when he doesn't make the right decisions, but most players are guilty of that. He keeps shooting because he always thinks his shots will fall, that's the mentality of a scorer, you can't take that away from him. I love the guy and get frustrated with him at times, but this team needs him on the floor to be successful.
Problem is... all the fcking kids are shooters now. So its possible to have several kids yarding bricks from the logo because they think they're Dame and just not feeling it yet. I mean, why have a coach at all in that case - just run some playground hoops stuff.
No, you have to manage your players and while yes, you don't bench them or shut them down, you perhaps start running plays for other players first. At some point going 4/20 from 3 becomes a liability, right? Or does it?
Totally agree, but you don’t tell him to stop shooting... I have been saying that we need to run a set or 2 to get specific shots but thats my humble opinion.. I’m not in practice or responsible for building kids into players for down the road, which may be taking precedent.
