Tommy Lloyd

[COUGinNCW]

1. Mark Few has kids in Jr High and HS. He’s in his mid 50s. He’s not going anywhere for 6 years minimum and may stick around another 10. I’m sure he’s paid very well for an assistant but I’m guessing that looks like $5-6k per year. Would be really turn down WSU for $1.5M per year?

2. Would he be a good fit at WSU? His recruiting niche overseas could work in Pullman but I’m not sure about the uptempo gu runs. Would he energize the fan base? Probably more than a top assistant from a school like Villanova since he’s well known in this area. Track record of gu assistants who have moved on is mixed so he may not be the messiah he may appear to be and may primarily be benefitting from the advantageous gu has.

 

[Glad Cougar]

1. Mark Few has kids in Jr High and HS. He’s in his mid 50s. He’s not going anywhere for 6 years minimum and may stick around another 10. I’m sure he’s paid very well for an assistant but I’m guessing that looks like $5-6k per year. Would be really turn down WSU for $1.5M per year?

2. Would he be a good fit at WSU? His recruiting niche overseas could work in Pullman but I’m not sure about the uptempo gu runs. Would he energize the fan base? Probably more than a top assistant from a school like Villanova since he’s well known in this area. Track record of gu assistants who have moved on is mixed so he may not be the messiah he may appear to be and may primarily be benefitting from the advantageous gu has.

I don't want to appear to be against any and all candidates for the job, but I really don't want to see a Gonzaga-connected coach come to WSU. Few, Rice, and Lloyd have reportedly scoffed and mocked Cougar basketball for years...saying unkind (IMO) things about the program and school. Sure, we've been struggling more often than not, but I've felt it was always classless and needless to kick a program when it's down, especially when you are a neighboring school that is clearly a powerhouse. If I'm wrong about the WSU bad-mouthing, I apologize to Gonzaga. But I know I've heard Few say some less than flattering things about the Cougars, I wouldn't be surprised that his assistants have felt/said the same things.

Glad Cougar

 

[Observer11]

1. Mark Few has kids in Jr High and HS. He’s in his mid 50s. He’s not going anywhere for 6 years minimum and may stick around another 10. I’m sure he’s paid very well for an assistant but I’m guessing that looks like $5-6k per year. Would be really turn down WSU for $1.5M per year?

2. Would he be a good fit at WSU? His recruiting niche overseas could work in Pullman but I’m not sure about the uptempo gu runs. Would he energize the fan base? Probably more than a top assistant from a school like Villanova since he’s well known in this area. Track record of gu assistants who have moved on is mixed so he may not be the messiah he may appear to be and may primarily be benefitting from the advantageous gu has.

I'll disagree to the extent that when GU's run started (and Lloyd showed up shortly thereafter), they were playing in a gym roughly the size of Richland High school's, give or take. The old Kennel was straight out of 1965.

There was no Martin Center, there was no charter jets, there was no nothing....Lloyd figured out the benefits of going global sooner than others - if I recall, I believe he played overseas and had some connections.

He's the one who really put that on steroids, not the facilities, not Few. Somehow he developed a pipeline to Canada too -probably through Pangos' dad and later Jay Triano. And who the F snags guys out of Japan?!?! Lloyd did that.

He is a FAR better recruiter than Leon Rice ever was and it's not even close. The dude can get more words out in a minute than an auctioneer though he's kind of toned it down the last couple seasons. But that guy can sell.

Few is a good coach - but what he's really good at is surrounding himself with a GREAT staff. And he knows Lloyd is his meal ticket to continuing to bring in top flight talent. Those two are joined at the hip. I've never seen one out and about in town without the other.

I haven't done the present value calculation - but Lloyd's got to be getting paid a helluva lot more than a mid-major head coach and that's guaranteed - he's not getting fired (see above). Then he's got the bonus kicker of whenever Few retires, he gets the big bucks. In totality, that's got to be big money.

A five year deal with downside risk at a middling to awful P5 school isn't going to overcome that number. It's not a matter of WSU not wanting him or if he's a good or bad fit, he's just not going to come without a massive deal. MASSIVE. Numbers that make Ernie's deal look small. And then factor in the charters and facility upgrade costs. Not gonna happen.

Let alone the ridicule he'd have to put up with at the lake between Few, Monson, Rice and the rest of the GU boys clubs.

He's not even on the list. Either way.

 

[Ffffws]

I’m sure he’s paid very well for an assistant but I’m guessing that looks like $5-6k per year. Would be really turn down WSU for $1.5M per year?

2. Would he be a good fit at WSU?

1. Sure he would...he's making very good money as an assistant and likely getting bonuses for every Dance. He can afford to wait for the dream HC opportunity.
2. Don't know.

 

[ElComanche]

Lloyd will never come to Pullman.

 

[SaveFerris]

I just don't see anything Gonzaga answering the question. They aren't potentially as bad but it's like thinking the hot flavor of the month at UCLA or Kentucky is somehow the answer in Pullman. Agree with what Glad posted but I think we also need someone who's hungry (minus the questionable morals). Lloyd's never been a head coach and appears content waiting it out for Few however long it takes.

 

[7ICoug]

Key to nearly all of this is much more than a system. Its a great staff. Eastman was never smart enough to find one and he couldn't recruit worth a lick. Sampson found one after a while. Same with George. Kent finally way way late put together what is in my opinion a pretty good staff. Only problem was by then those old retreads had dug him a hole so deep he couldn't get out of it.

But clearly there were other things going on as well.

 

[SaveFerris]

Key to nearly all of this is much more than a system. Its a great staff. Eastman was never smart enough to find one and he couldn't recruit worth a lick. Sampson found one after a while. Same with George. Kent finally way way late put together what is in my opinion a pretty good staff. Only problem was by then those old retreads had dug him a hole so deep he couldn't get out of it.

But clearly there were other things going on as well.

Recruiting is a priority for the next staff. I don't know how that's somehow been missed with some of the initial staffs (although with Sampson I remember hearing it was a condition to have Harshman/Motta on his first staff).

 

[7ICoug]

Not sure why the AD lets the Coach make all of the staff decisions. Don't think that was the case with Bone and it certainly shouldn't have been with Ernie.

 

[WACougFan]

Not sure why the AD lets the Coach make all of the staff decisions. Don't think that was the case with Bone and it certainly shouldn't have been with Ernie.

I think that is something you negotiate during the hiring process. If I were a head coach I would have an agreement that my staff choices were up to me, barring any character or NCAA issues. Likewise Chun could negotiate the fact that he wants to have a say in the staff. Chun is a manager not a basketball guru so I think it is best to let the new guy have his own fate in his hands...no micro managing.

 

[SaveFerris]

Not sure why the AD lets the Coach make all of the staff decisions. Don't think that was the case with Bone and it certainly shouldn't have been with Ernie.

Sampson had been a head coach before but at Montana Tech. He was young (early 30’s?) and ambitious. He probably would have agreed to anything but maybe didn’t have the connections at that point to fill out a staff.

I do remember Harshman and Motta being picked for him. They lasted maybe 2 years before he replaced them.

 

[CougEd]

Sampson had been a head coach before but at Montana Tech. He was young (early 30’s?) and ambitious. He probably would have agreed to anything but maybe didn’t have the connections at that point to fill out a staff.

I do remember Harshman and Motta being picked for him. They lasted maybe 2 years before he replaced them.

There were several reasons both Motta and Harshman were picked for Sampson. recruiting ties being one of them, showing him the ropes was another. Having more experience with X's and O's.

 

[SaveFerris]

There were several reasons both Motta and Harshman were picked for Sampson. recruiting ties being one of them, showing him the ropes was another. Having more experience with X's and O's.

Something wasn't working those first few years and it was Sampson getting Seltzer and Donny Newman that turned things around.

 

[CougEd]

Something wasn't working those first few years and it was Sampson getting Seltzer and Donny Newman that turned things around.

You are correct something wasn't working the first few years. I think Kelvin discovered things that would work and used those tools both at Oklahoma and Indiana.

 

[avabob1]

Biggest thing I saw from Sampson teams his entire stint at Pullman was what I would call too much intensity. His teams came out on fire, but couldnt sustain the momentum dow the stretch. Kelvin blew more double digit half time leads than I have seen from any other coach in Pullman

 

[CecilYounger]

Biggest thing I saw from Sampson teams his entire stint at Pullman was what I would call too much intensity. His teams came out on fire, but couldnt sustain the momentum dow the stretch. Kelvin blew more double digit half time leads than I have seen from any other coach in Pullman

That was my impression as well. Not sure if stats would back it up however.

 

[Glad Cougar]

Biggest thing I saw from Sampson teams his entire stint at Pullman was what I would call too much intensity. His teams came out on fire, but couldnt sustain the momentum dow the stretch. Kelvin blew more double digit half time leads than I have seen from any other coach in Pullman

That may be because double digit halftime leads has been pretty rare for the Cougars!

Glad Cougar

 

[avabob1]

Probably true but it was frustrating at the time. It started his 3rd year on that 1-17 team, and went right on to his last game against BC in the tournament.

 

[SaveFerris]

Probably true but it was frustrating at the time. It started his 3rd year on that 1-17 team, and went right on to his last game against BC in the tournament.

He hasn't changed. The announcers in Houston's conference championship said their practices were the most intense they had seen. I haven't watched them enough but he probably has a lot more depth than what he had while at WSU. I don't know if you can practice soft and turn it on for the games. I think it is something that has to constantly be preached and demanded.

 

[avabob1]

I think one of my favorite things sbout Tony was how even keeled he kept the kids over the course of a game.

As for Kelvin, I distinctly remember 3 games furing the 18 game losing streak that we blew double digit leads. I remember 2 UCLA gamesj when Seltzer was there that we blew big leads. Also the Boston College game I already mentioned. Sampson had a reputation in Pullman for not being able to win the big games. Ironically the biggest win of his tenure against Cal to secure an NCAa bid came after a totally horendous start.

 

[FnuLnu]

I think one of my favorite things sbout Tony was how even keeled he kept the kids over the course of a game.

As for Kelvin, I distinctly remember 3 games furing the 18 game losing streak that we blew double digit leads. I remember 2 UCLA gamesj when Seltzer was there that we blew big leads. Also the Boston College game I already mentioned. Sampson had a reputation in Pullman for not being able to win the big games. Ironically the biggest win of his tenure against Cal to secure an NCAa bid came after a totally horendous start.

Ernie Kent actually won the same number of games against Top 25 teams as Kelvin did in Pullman.
Kelvin's end game tactics were pretty poor in Pullman. That 1-17 team was in striking distance quite often with 4 minutes to play.
They played hard though, "no bullpen"

 

[Coug95man2]

I get that Kelvin may not be the best choice. But I also remember that gym being packed with people. Sitting in the upper sections, when he'd rip his tie off, the crowd would go NUTS. It was an atmosphere. The crowd gave the team energy. I'd take that over what we've had over the past decade, in a heartbeat. Obviously there are other choices but I wouldn't down on Sampson too much. Our program has a long road ahead of it to rebuild.

 

[avabob1]

Losing certainly doesnt help, but big crowds at most college hoops venues have gone the way of adoptable dog and swim suit halftime contests.

 

[SaveFerris]

Losing certainly doesnt help, but big crowds at most college hoops venues have gone the way of adoptable dog and swim suit halftime contests.

I assume you have good reason but it’s hard for me to reconcile taking issue with Sampson for being too intense and losing leads but defending Bone when there is criticism.

 

[Glad Cougar]

WSU doesn't need the huge crowds it got during the TB regime, but it's not unreasonable to expect an end to the mausoleum type atmosphere that dominated the Kent reign....and that has nothing to do with the downtrend in attendance nationwide. There is no energy whatsoever at Cougar games now. I hope the next coach will have a personality and a team identity that will attract an enthusiastic crowd no matter how many people are in the stands. Averaging just over 2,000 people (announced attendance, far fewer actually attended) for a Pac-12 school is embarrassing especially when you can hear individual conversations in the stands.

Glad Cougar

 

[avabob1]

Its not the intensity per se but understanding kids. Too many times I saw Sampson teams running off the court at half time with a big lead, jumping and high fiving. Then a team makes a run the second half and guys tense up. Most good teams have the ability to wratchet up the defensive intensity after half time. Tony won a lot of games the first 5 minutes of the second half.

Sampson was young and inexperienced back then. My guess is he learned a lot at WSU that he took to OK.

 

[SaveFerris]

Its not the intensity per se but understanding kids. Too many times I saw Sampson teams running off the court at half time with a big lead, jumping and high fiving. Then a team makes a run the second half and guys tense up. Most good teams have the ability to wratchet up the defensive intensity after half time. Tony won a lot of games the first 5 minutes of the second half.

Sampson was young and inexperienced back then. My guess is he learned a lot at WSU that he took to OK.

It's not the criticism of Sampson and I have actually had similar thoughts. I thought then and now he worked the players too hard and it had a late game and a late season impact at the end of games. A lot of times the players were noticeably dragging. Some of that probably had to do with depth at WSU vs what he probably had moving forward.

It's the contrast in defending Bone and even Kent to an extent.

 

[avabob1]

Nit sure what happened with Bone. I thought he did a good job the first 3 years but was being held to an unattainable standard. The last 2 years the wheels were coming off and a change had to be made. As for Kent I thought it was a gutsy hire, rather than an easy hire. However his teams under achieved based on the talent he had. His contract should never have been rolled over.

 

[Loyal Coug]

Nit sure what happened with Bone. I thought he did a good job the first 3 years but was being held to an unattainable standard. The last 2 years the wheels were coming off and a change had to be made. As for Kent I thought it was a gutsy hire, rather than an easy hire. However his teams under achieved based on the talent he had. His contract should never have been rolled over.

I guess I could see one rollover, maybe after year 2, for recruiting's sake, but 3 of them are just indefensible.

And much as I don't like EK, I also guess he could have looked to many as a sort of wow hire. Or gutsy, as you say.

The thing is, after living through Mr. Armani suit Paul Graham, I just never thought EK and his slick suits would ever be embraced in Pullman, unless he won and won relatively big. They weren't and he didn't.

 

[Glad Cougar]

I guess I could see one rollover, maybe after year 2, for recruiting's sake, but 3 of them are just indefensible.

And much as I don't like EK, I also guess he could have looked to many as a sort of wow hire. Or gutsy, as you say.

The thing is, after living through Mr. Armani suit Paul Graham, I just never thought EK and his slick suits would ever be embraced in Pullman, unless he won and won relatively big. They weren't and he didn't.

Rolling over the contract in year two after a 1-17 conference record sends a bad message about rewarding incompetency. Rollovers are like raises- they should only be given to reward positive results. As it turns out, those rollovers really didn't seem to help recruiting.

To me, Kent was not a wow hire, but an "ow" hire, as in "ow, that hire is going to hurt the program." I thought so when Moos made the decision to bring Ol' Ern aboard.

Glad Cougar