What is it going to take to get Pullman residents in the stands?

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

And or Colfax/ Spokane/ Tri-Cities?

Don't tell me winning, because I've had all out thread wars with posters during the TB years and people STILL not showing up.

Just watched a video from the game yesterday and outside of the sidelines, Beasley looked to be deserted. Butch getting a "GO COUGS" answer and reply and it was "GO" "cougs" "GO" "cougs". I'll give you one guess who was doing their part, but you won't need it.

I just don't get it - why isn't picking up a basketball game or two just part of the culture of residents of Pullman/ Colfax county? WTF else are they doing, watching Wapner? (RIP) Its cheap, accessible entertainment, I just don't get it.

 

[COUGinNCW]

you haven't watched much WSU basketball this year. That was by far the best crowd for both students and fans. The students only started showing up for the Az schools so hopefully they'll carry that into next year. The crowds in december were non existent. Maybe SJSU and NO games are different outcomes?

1st thing is to get the students out. If iI go to a college basketball game it's going to be the atmosphere the students create that makes me want to go.

 

[ElComanche]

I only saw the videos and that is the most enthusiasm i have seen for basketball in Pullman in a long time. Perhaps Ernie Kent has turned the corner with his program?

 

[ElComanche]

i have noticed the change in many posters. They are now talking basketball and seeing the potential of the underclassmen on the team. There is hope and the naysayers are both boards are muted for the time being. Listening to EK,it sounds like he is very hopeful of bringing in more quality "bigs" for next season. There a few protected posters on the other board who cannot admit they are wrong but they are either monitors or relatives protected by the nerds in control. But the pendulum has swung and posters are talking basketball with hope for the future.

 

[Loyal Coug]

you haven't watched much WSU basketball this year. That was by far the best crowd for both students and fans. The students only started showing up for the Az schools so hopefully they'll carry that into next year. The crowds in december were non existent. Maybe SJSU and NO games are different outcomes?

1st thing is to get the students out. If iI go to a college basketball game it's going to be the atmosphere the students create that makes me want to go.

The WSU Athletics site has a picture of Hawk shooting with the reserved side in the background. Lower level was less than half full, upper level had -0- fans. Pretty sad for Sr. night against the mutts.

When the Bennetts started the rebuild, they a) won some big games early (Kelati against AZ), and b) brought a blue-collar, tenacious attitude with them. The fans responded and it kept the attendance climbing, even in the first three years. I had season tickets for several years back then. When we got really good, the place was packed. Tony's last game against ASU, when Rochestie hit the 3 to win it at the end, was bedlam, even in that off-year. I was there. Video:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...AD36C09C8F7738CA703AAD36C09C8F7738C&FORM=VIRE

Edit - this fan video is better. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...C00398377DED82AC36D5C00398377DED8&FORM=VRDGAR

Since then it has been ratball and declining wins. No identity to identify with. Kent may have brought a name, but he is no fan favorite with his past. Start winning 20 games? Yeah the place will fill up. Not until then.

 

[longtimecoug]

The WSU Athletics site has a picture of Hawk shooting with the reserved side in the background. Lower level was less than half full, upper level had -0- fans. Pretty sad for Sr. night against the mutts.

When the Bennetts started the rebuild, they a) won some big games early (Kelati against AZ), and b) brought a blue-collar, tenacious attitude with them. The fans responded and it kept the attendance climbing, even in the first three years. I had season tickets for several years back then. When we got really good, the place was packed. Tony's last game against ASU, when Rochestie hit the 3 to win it at the end, was bedlam, even in that off-year. I was there. Video:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...AD36C09C8F7738CA703AAD36C09C8F7738C&FORM=VIRE

Edit - this fan video is better. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...C00398377DED82AC36D5C00398377DED8&FORM=VRDGAR
this was the biggest crowd I have seen al season, by far. since the upper half of the coliseum is dark how do you know there were 0 fans?

Since then it has been ratball and declining wins. No identity to identify with. Kent may have brought a name, but he is no fan favorite with his past. Start winning 20 games? Yeah the place will fill up. Not until then.

 

[avabob1]

Same old answers. Its unwatchable rat ball. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but the bottom line is we dont have very many people who really like college hoops for the sake of the game. We hsve a lot of people who will jump on the band wagon for an NCAA run. Crowds picked up a ton for Tonys teams but dropped off a bunch for a final 4 NIT team lead by a future NBA allstar. The argument was that it was unwatchable because it wasnt Bennett ball defense.

I dont even argue with these guys any more. I enjoy watching guys like Ike develop over the years and I am going to like watching Flynn lead the young guys as they develop. When we have a real good year and make post season it is a pleasant surprise.

I have followed the Cougs for 50 years. There have been a lot more poor teams than good ones. However there have been very few teams that didnt have a player or two who were worth the price of admission.
Poudakis, Quinnett, Seltzer, Moore, and Kelati all played on some horrible teams at some point in their careers at WSU. I saw some great games by those guys even in bad seasons.

 

[SaveFerris]

The WSU Athletics site has a picture of Hawk shooting with the reserved side in the background. Lower level was less than half full, upper level had -0- fans. Pretty sad for Sr. night against the mutts.

When the Bennetts started the rebuild, they a) won some big games early (Kelati against AZ), and b) brought a blue-collar, tenacious attitude with them. The fans responded and it kept the attendance climbing, even in the first three years. I had season tickets for several years back then. When we got really good, the place was packed. Tony's last game against ASU, when Rochestie hit the 3 to win it at the end, was bedlam, even in that off-year. I was there. Video:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...AD36C09C8F7738CA703AAD36C09C8F7738C&FORM=VIRE

Edit - this fan video is better. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...C00398377DED82AC36D5C00398377DED8&FORM=VRDGAR

Since then it has been ratball and declining wins. No identity to identify with. Kent may have brought a name, but he is no fan favorite with his past. Start winning 20 games? Yeah the place will fill up. Not until then.

Fans and students connected with Dick and then Tony from day 1. They started to compete, played hard, and Dick had a way of communicating where things were headed like no other that I have listened to before or since. That first year when #1 Stanford came in and on a Thursday there must have been 9 or 10,000 in attendance and if not for a circus 3 and 5 second call we knock them off. I remember shots of Montgomery on the bench with a knowing smile and shake of his head knowing his players had looked past us to the game against UW.

I think WSU fans will come out if we see consistent energy, players working hard and making good decision, and a clear objective and philosophy in place. I think Flynn is a great step in that direction and in the mold of a Taylor Rotchestie but we need more. Nice seeing that ASU video again especially the end with Rotchestie, Baynes, and Harmeling heading off the court. All great Coug's!

Great way to end the regular season. I'll never look down beating UW in anything even though we definitely should have won that game.

 

[avabob1]

I have often said that Dick was one of the best hires in WSU history. He also benefited from the incredibly low bar set during Grahams tenure. Tony was even better as a young coach. Then came Bone but the bar was set considerably higher than when Dick came to town. So much so that nobody seemed to notice Bone inherited the youngest team in the league with only one top tier talent returning. Bone wasnt half way through his first season before the unwatchable rat ball posts started. Forget that Tony was only able to win a couple more games the prior season with three senior starters including an NBA post and and a very good pg.

Then came Ernie. Before his first game guys were complaining that he didnt play defense and he couldnt win because he couldnt get up and down the court 4 star kids. Ernie can win if he keeps bringing in kids like he got in the last two classes. And, a funny thing about defense. When you dont have good offensive talent you probably dont have good defensive talent either. The old argument that defense is just about hard work is wrong. Examples, compare Cowgill to Junior Longrus. Both smart guys and both hard workers. However Cowgill was both faster and longer making him one of the best defenders I have seen. Longrus just couldn't d up guys without fouling, no matter how hard he worked. Another example. Compare Weaver to Capers. Again nobody worked harder than Capers but he wasnt quick enough to be more than a good defender. Weaver, again was long and quick making him a total lock down defender. Were the Bennetts great defensive coaches? Absolutely, but it was the athleticism of Cowgill and Weaver that made them special. Look at his last season.With Cowgill and Weaver gone we got lit up by both GU and the Huskies. We blew a 10 point lead to lose to a mediocre LSU team. Plus arguably our best win came in a shootout against UCLA thanks to Rochestie having a career shooting night.

 

[SaveFerris]

I have often said that Dick was one of the best hires in WSU history. He also benefited from the incredibly low bar set during Grahams tenure. Tony was even better as a young coach. Then came Bone but the bar was set considerably higher than when Dick came to town. So much so that nobody seemed to notice Bone inherited the youngest team in the league with only one top tier talent returning. Bone wasnt half way through his first season before the unwatchable rat ball posts started. Forget that Tony was only able to win a couple more games the prior season with three senior starters including an NBA post and and a very good pg.

Then came Ernie. Before his first game guys were complaining that he didnt play defense and he couldnt win because he couldnt get up and down the court 4 star kids. Ernie can win if he keeps bringing in kids like he got in the last two classes. And, a funny thing about defense. When you dont have good offensive talent you probably dont have good defensive talent either. The old argument that defense is just about hard work is wrong. Examples, compare Cowgill to Junior Longrus. Both smart guys and both hard workers. However Cowgill was both faster and longer making him one of the best defenders I have seen. Longrus just couldn't d up guys without fouling, no matter how hard he worked. Another example. Compare Weaver to Capers. Again nobody worked harder than Capers but he wasnt quick enough to be more than a good defender. Weaver, again was long and quick making him a total lock down defender. Were the Bennetts great defensive coaches? Absolutely, but it was the athleticism of Cowgill and Weaver that made them special. Look at his last season.With Cowgill and Weaver gone we got lit up by both GU and the Huskies. We blew a 10 point lead to lose to a mediocre LSU team. Plus arguably our best win came in a shootout against UCLA thanks to Rochestie having a career shooting night.

Talent evaluation is a crucial. Something Tony struggled with early, Bone really struggled with as the years went on, Kent struggled with year 1 and 2 and remains to be seen moving forward. Dick was probably the best talent evaluator for WSU we have seen although Sampson late was pretty good as well. Eastman, Graham, and Bone were awful. Bone totally bailed on his philosophy because he simply couldn't recruit to it.

 

[avabob1]

Hard telling about talent evaluation. It doesnt always translate to landing the kid. The further you go down in the star line the bigger chance you are taking. Even Dick once said that was the only time he ever landed all his targets when he got the Cowgill class. That was great talent evaluation, and great work in landing them.

It doesnt always work that way. Tony had more misses than hits. Not like he was a bad evaluator of talent, there just wasnt much upside in the available pool that he could get to Pullman for a couple of years. Makes no difference how great an evaluator of talent you are if the kid wont sign. Conversely coaches usually know how big a risk they are taking on a kid but slso know they have no choice.

 

[ElComanche]

Kent said they were after some quality big men , The only one i remember is 6'10 prep Malik Ondigo. I remember something about a 6'8 juco player. Last year, they did offer 6'11 250 Jacob Hughes but do not know if they are currently recruiting him. Only Ondigo ,as far as i know,is being hotly recruited by many schools.

 

[COUGinNCW]

Fans and students connected with Dick and then Tony from day 1. They started to compete, played hard, and Dick had a way of communicating where things were headed like no other that I have listened to before or since. That first year when #1 Stanford came in and on a Thursday there must have been 9 or 10,000 in attendance and if not for a circus 3 and 5 second call we knock them off. I remember shots of Montgomery on the bench with a knowing smile and shake of his head knowing his players had looked past us to the game against UW.

I think WSU fans will come out if we see consistent energy, players working hard and making good decision, and a clear objective and philosophy in place. I think Flynn is a great step in that direction and in the mold of a Taylor Rotchestie but we need more. Nice seeing that ASU video again especially the end with Rotchestie, Baynes, and Harmeling heading off the court. All great Coug's!

Great way to end the regular season. I'll never look down beating UW in anything even though we definitely should have won that game.

Big difference between Dick's first year and today is every game is on HDTV. I probably would have made the drive yesterday in the snow, after watching my kids play AAU tournaments all weekend if i had to watch it i
on my old crappy 21" tv or listen to Bud Namek on the radio. instead i plopped down in front of my 70" tv while i smoked ribs.

Beasley needs to hold about 8500. The big crowds are likely gone forever.

 

[SaveFerris]

Hard telling about talent evaluation. It doesnt always translate to landing the kid. The further you go down in the star line the bigger chance you are taking. Even Dick once said that was the only time he ever landed all his targets when he got the Cowgill class. That was great talent evaluation, and great work in landing them.

It doesnt always work that way. Tony had more misses than hits. Not like he was a bad evaluator of talent, there just wasnt much upside in the available pool that he could get to Pullman for a couple of years. Makes no difference how great an evaluator of talent you are if the kid wont sign. Conversely coaches usually know how big a risk they are taking on a kid but slso know they have no choice.

Signing is of course important but thought that was obvious. You have to spot them first though. Finishing second as Bone did on a few (and mostly to UW as well) is meaningless. Finding kids that are going to develop, signing them, and then developing (Low, Weaver, Cowgill, Baynes) is key. We haven't had that since Tony. Tony reached early and it was obvious Dad was making the decisions on that first class. I think he would have continued to improve in that area and after some early misses things were turning in terms of recruiting.

Bone essentially went to Bennett-ball the last few years. That's a colossal failure to evaluate, sign, develop, and there's no excuse no matter how hard you try to find one. Bone had the mind for sure but he simply was in over his head leading a program in the Pac 10/12 especially in Pullman in every area that is important. He's lucky there's a Graham, Stevens, Greenwood in our past because he turned the program into the walking dead.

 

[avabob1]

I wont defend Bones last two seasons but people were wanting him fired whle he was still making post season and they abandoned the team before the bad seasons

 

[SaveFerris]

I wont defend Bones last two seasons but people were wanting him fired whle he was still making post season and they abandoned the team before the bad seasons

I don't know what it was but he didn't seem to connect with the fans and obviously at least a few players as well. Style may have played into it on the court but he wasn't exactly the most charismatic guy out there.

 

[M-I-Coug]

I'm agreeing with COUGinNCW, regarding his theory on HDTV. No question. Sure, if I lived in Pullman, absolutely, I would be there. The color, the dance cheers, the band, Butch, you name it, nothing like being there live. However, today, we've got ESPNU, ESPN, and P12N.

When you've got a good system, good room, or even a dedicated room at home, why trek it out? In addition, today, we've got smart phones, mobile devices, tablets, big screens, projectors, kitchen TVs, let alone all the additional distractions with social media, and our message boards.

People like to nest at home. Sit in their pajamas (which we don't own, or wear), be on the internet, and watching the game on High-Def. If you're a student, that's one thing, but if you live outside Pullman, chances are, you're sittin' in your pajamas.

 

[avabob1]

Nobody supports the Cougs more than me but as an aging Spokanite the roads look worse the bigger my tv gets. I agree that is a bigger part of dwindling attendance than people think. For years I drove through some abysmal conditions to get to games. Just havent been doing it for several years. Not related to the caliber of the team

 

[12375CAT]

Keep beating the Doggies

 

[How_did_this_happen?]

I don't know what it was but he didn't seem to connect with the fans and obviously at least a few players as well. Style may have played into it on the court but he wasn't exactly the most charismatic guy out there.

And you could tell he had no real belief in what he was doing. Does anyone recall him ever articulating a vision of where he wanted to take the program? I don't. It's important to communicate a vision which fans can support. Bone is a nice guy. He is no P5 head coach. He made the most bizarre substitutions I've seen a coach make. Whenever a player got a hot hand, you could be sure Bone would pull him from the game. Also, every time we had a close game, Bone's timeouts at the end would invariably result in the opponent prevailing.

 

[avabob1]

Bone is a really good guy and I think his cosching was under rated. He had some great game plans against superior opponents. However his low key personality just didnt work in Pullman where it takes a little more showmanship from a coach to sell the product to fans and recruits alike. Raveling couldn't coach a lick compared to Bone when he came to Pullman but his larger than life personality revived the program. I think Kents high profile is a definite plus and trumps arguments about his coaching. Recruiting is still 80% and Kent has a better chance than most to have success over a 5 year period. He can win with a couple of solid freshmen each year and a jc or two. He struck out on his first class and that set him for the quick jc fix that turned in to a disaster. Better to lose while giving Franks and Daniels bigger minutes last season.

 

[SaveFerris]

However his low key personality just didnt work in Pullman where it takes a little more showmanship from a coach to sell the product to fans and recruits alike.

As How posted though did Bone ever really communicate any sort of plan? He just didn't connect well. Dick Bennett didn't have Raveling's personality but he was able to connect from day 1. I wouldn't call Kelvin personable but people seemed to relate to his approach of toughness and a sort of blue-collar mentality. Going much further back was Harshman a charismatic coach?

There is never going to be another George Raveling but others have still succeeded. Bone's a good guy and he has a good mind. He's a really good assistant at the P5 level but he's not equipped to lead a program. Raveling might not have had Bone's chops in terms of game planning etc., but he was a program leader. Price might not have been as good a gameday coach as Erickson but he could lead a program.

You can tick off the things Bone didn't have at WSU but Bone was his own worst enemy. That's always been the main reason coaches fail at WSU.

 

[YakiCoug]

I only saw the videos and that is the most enthusiasm i have seen for basketball in Pullman in a long time. Perhaps Ernie Kent has turned the corner with his program?

We just beat a bottom feeder playing without its best player, but don't let me interrupt your delirium.

 

[YakiCoug]

Nobody supports the Cougs more than me but as an aging Spokanite the roads look worse the bigger my tv gets. I agree that is a bigger part of dwindling attendance than people think. For years I drove through some abysmal conditions to get to games. Just havent been doing it for several years. Not related to the caliber of the team

But as a Spokane Coug, you still get to the Zag games, right? j/k

 

[ElComanche]

I think that the cougs beat that same "bottom feeder"in Seattle with their best player. Perhaps a touch of reality is a good thing.

 

[YakiCoug]

I think that the cougs beat that same "bottom feeder"in Seattle with their best player. Perhaps a touch of reality is a good thing.

And if WSU loses to USC and UCLA to finish 6-12 and, thus, a 14-40 Pac-12 record under Kent? That's miserably bad - and a reality you continue leg humping.

 

[ElComanche]

You are a funny man Of course.people want a better team and record. However,the cougs will have to continue to improve. When Flynn plays like a freshman the cougs will not look good. The cougs are not yet athletic enough to compete on the road against athletic teams.

 

[Cougsocal]

And or Colfax/ Spokane/ Tri-Cities?

Don't tell me winning, because I've had all out thread wars with posters during the TB years and people STILL not showing up.

Just watched a video from the game yesterday and outside of the sidelines, Beasley looked to be deserted. Butch getting a "GO COUGS" answer and reply and it was "GO" "cougs" "GO" "cougs". I'll give you one guess who was doing their part, but you won't need it.

I just don't get it - why isn't picking up a basketball game or two just part of the culture of residents of Pullman/ Colfax county? WTF else are they doing, watching Wapner? (RIP) Its cheap, accessible entertainment, I just don't get it.

And or Colfax/ Spokane/ Tri-Cities?

Don't tell me winning, because I've had all out thread wars with posters during the TB years and people STILL not showing up.

Just watched a video from the game yesterday and outside of the sidelines, Beasley looked to be deserted. Butch getting a "GO COUGS" answer and reply and it was "GO" "cougs" "GO" "cougs". I'll give you one guess who was doing their part, but you won't need it.

I just don't get it - why isn't picking up a basketball game or two just part of the culture of residents of Pullman/ Colfax county? WTF else are they doing, watching Wapner? (RIP) Its cheap, accessible entertainment, I just don't get it.

First, 10-8 in Pac-12 play and beating a dozen cup cakes, isn't winning, it is being average. If I'm not mistaken, that is the best the Cougs have done since George left. People forget that Arizona was a BB wasteland prior to Lute. To build a fan base he hade to win consistently, you need to have a must see product.

George didn't win consistently. In 81-82 we weren't good. 82-83 started off slow. We even lost to teams we had no business losing to ... Montana, Idaho. No one showed up for games. Then the wins started, 5-0 in Pac-10. Crowds start to build. Guy goes down .. the horror. But we keep winning 7-0, meeting the Rocket Rod led Bruins in Pauley ... the curse. Haskins misses the game winner, a put back from 6 inches, we lose in by 2 in OT. 13-3 ... the rematch for all the marbles in Beasley. Crowd control before the game becomes an issue. Fans are let in early fearing for the safety to those up front, as panick sets in that many realize they will be left out in cold. An over capacity crowd watching... the clock delay ... the Pollard tip in at the buzzer ... pandemonium. Building on that is how you gets butt in the seats. We couldn't.

With all due respect to the Bennetts and Kelvin, what they managed to give us was significantly less. They gave us the "Little train" that "could," undermanned teams trying to compete with the big boys. Williams, Harriel, Haskins, Ehlo and Winkler, as well as Pollard, Brown, Morrison could match up with anyone and played liked it. A talent level and level of play we haven't seen since George moved to Iowa.

 

[SaveFerris]

First, 10-8 in Pac-12 play and beating a dozen cup cakes, isn't winning, it is being average. If I'm not mistaken, that is the best the Cougs have done since George left. People forget that Arizona was a BB wasteland prior to Lute. To build a fan base he hade to win consistently, you need to have a must see product.

George didn't win consistently. In 81-82 we weren't good. 82-83 started off slow. We even lost to teams we had no business losing to ... Montana, Idaho. No one showed up for games. Then the wins started, 5-0 in Pac-10. Crowds start to build. Guy goes down .. the horror. But we keep winning 7-0, meeting the Rocket Rod led Bruins in Pauley ... the curse. Haskins misses the game winner, a put back from 6 inches, we lose in by 2 in OT. 13-3 ... the rematch for all the marbles in Beasley. Crowd control before the game becomes an issue. Fans are let in early fearing for the safety to those up front, as panick sets in that many realize they will be left out in cold. An over capacity crowd watching... the clock delay ... the Pollard tip in at the buzzer ... pandemonium. Building on that is how you gets butt in the seats. We couldn't.

With all due respect to the Bennetts and Kelvin, what they managed to give us was significantly less. They gave us the "Little train" that "could," undermanned teams trying to compete with the big boys. Williams, Harriel, Haskins, Ehlo and Winkler, as well as Pollard, Brown, Morrison could match up with anyone and played liked it. A talent level and level of play we haven't seen since George moved to Iowa.

Raveling left a lot of talent but I think we were getting there with Kelvin. If he stays so does Erdmann and Abercrombie and a pretty competitive overall roster. Who knows what he would have been able to do moving forward. The Sweet 16 team was pretty talented as well. They dismantled a good Notre Dame.

 

[avabob1]

Rav only had a couple of teams that could go toe to toe with the big boys. The 80 team was one and the 83 team with Williams and Ehlo. Both totally senior laden. His teams in most of the other years of his tenure were no better than Tonys teams and Sampsons better teams.

Sampson clearly left the program in better shape than than any departing coach despite taking Erdman and Abercrombie. Hendrickson Fontaine Ellison Daniels and Mack was a better group than what Stevens inherited from Rav or Bone got from Tony.

 

[Loyal Coug]

First, 10-8 in Pac-12 play and beating a dozen cup cakes, isn't winning, it is being average. If I'm not mistaken, that is the best the Cougs have done since George left. People forget that Arizona was a BB wasteland prior to Lute. To build a fan base he hade to win consistently, you need to have a must see product.

George didn't win consistently. In 81-82 we weren't good. 82-83 started off slow. We even lost to teams we had no business losing to ... Montana, Idaho. No one showed up for games. Then the wins started, 5-0 in Pac-10. Crowds start to build. Guy goes down .. the horror. But we keep winning 7-0, meeting the Rocket Rod led Bruins in Pauley ... the curse. Haskins misses the game winner, a put back from 6 inches, we lose in by 2 in OT. 13-3 ... the rematch for all the marbles in Beasley. Crowd control before the game becomes an issue. Fans are let in early fearing for the safety to those up front, as panick sets in that many realize they will be left out in cold. An over capacity crowd watching... the clock delay ... the Pollard tip in at the buzzer ... pandemonium. Building on that is how you gets butt in the seats. We couldn't.

With all due respect to the Bennetts and Kelvin, what they managed to give us was significantly less. They gave us the "Little train" that "could," undermanned teams trying to compete with the big boys. Williams, Harriel, Haskins, Ehlo and Winkler, as well as Pollard, Brown, Morrison could match up with anyone and played liked it. A talent level and level of play we haven't seen since George moved to Iowa.

The record books and I had a good laugh at this post.
Raveling had winning records, and .500 or better Pac-8/10 records, 7 out of his 11 years. I would call that consistent winning (for WSU). His overall win % was .551.

Tony's teams finished 13-5 (2nd) and 11-7 (3rd) in the Pac in his first two years. He and Dick had a combined win % of .561. So yes we have done better than 10-8. And Baynes and Klay laugh at being characterized as a little train that could.

 

[Cougsocal]

The record books and I had a good laugh at this post.
Raveling had winning records, and .500 or better Pac-8/10 records, 7 out of his 11 years. I would call that consistent winning (for WSU). His overall win % was .551.

Tony's teams finished 13-5 (2nd) and 11-7 (3rd) in the Pac in his first two years. He and Dick had a combined win % of .561. So yes we have done better than 10-8. And Baynes and Klay laugh at being characterized as a little train that could.

Forgot about the 13-5 season. That is winning any way you cut it. However, the question was and remains how do you get butts in the seats? If you are being honest winning in college ball is measured by getting to the NCAA's, not a 16-14 record, 6-12 in conference, hoping for an NIT berth. You aren't going to get people out on a cold icy night, if that is what you are offering as "success." With 350 teams, you can alway schedule 12 cup cakes to start. As good as the Bennetts were, they were 50-58 in conference, offering playing a style of play that wasn't promotion friendly. George was better his last 8 years, but only 2 NCAA bids (due to small fields), hurt him/us. Today, it would have been good enough for 6 NCAAs in 8 years, and that would have changed the outlook and increase attendance dramatically.

 

[Cougsocal]

Raveling left a lot of talent but I think we were getting there with Kelvin. If he stays so does Erdmann and Abercrombie and a pretty competitive overall roster. Who knows what he would have been able to do moving forward. The Sweet 16 team was pretty talented as well. They dismantled a good Notre Dame.

Was everything Kelvin doing at WSU recruiting-wise on the up and up? Based on his history you have to wonder, and would it have caught up with him/us had he stayed? The calibre of his recruits changed so dramatically -- Did signing Bennie alone do all that? I have to wonder if Derrick and Lewis received a little extra... Why would they come all the way from Texas to a struggling program, and thing just got better from there.

 

[SaveFerris]

Was everything Kelvin doing at WSU recruiting-wise on the up and up? Based on his history you have to wonder, and would it have caught up with him/us had he stayed? The calibre of his recruits changed so dramatically -- Did signing Bennie alone do all that? I have to wonder if Derrick and Lewis received a little extra... Why would they come all the way from Texas to a struggling program, and thing just got better from there.

There was talk with the Terrance Lewis JC group Donnie Newman pulled out of Texas but I never saw that talk with high school recruits like Fontaine, Hendrickson, Mack, etc.

Still, Kelvin was destined to get in trouble at some point.

 

[avabob11]

There had to be some reason nobody would touch Newman with a 10 ft pole despite his success in a temporary stint at ASU. It wasn't just his lack of success at Sac State. He should have been a slam dunk hire when Dickson brought in Graham. Dickson was a horrible AD, but I think he probably had a pretty good handle on some things that were going on with Kelvin and Donny.

Also I don't think Kelvin just happened to learn some of the tricks that got him in trouble at Indiana and OK after he left WSU.

 

[avabob1]

Just had to comment on Lute. Guy was a great coach but it didnt hurt that he had the only game in town in a city of half a million plus very few years when there werent at least 2 or 3 4 star kids within 100 miles of campus.

ASU is the sleeping giant that befuddles me. Great climate. Nice campus. Tremendous recruiting location. They always look like they are on the verge of breaking through with a good recruiting class, and yet they never get over the hump.

 

[ElComanche]

Well all of the posting pundits thought that the hiring of Hurley will get them over the "hump" Hurley seems to always be on the verge of signing 5 star players but always falls short. It will be interesting to see if he can pull it off. ASU is in a better city, then Rival Arizona, but seems to be on the outside looking in.

 

[SaveFerris]

There had to be some reason nobody would touch Newman with a 10 ft pole despite his success in a temporary stint at ASU. It wasn't just his lack of success at Sac State. He should have been a slam dunk hire when Dickson brought in Graham. Dickson was a horrible AD, but I think he probably had a pretty good handle on some things that were going on with Kelvin and Donny.

Also I don't think Kelvin just happened to learn some of the tricks that got him in trouble at Indiana and OK after he left WSU.

I can't remember our President at the time (Smith?) but there was death penalty talk and they seemed to want to insulate WSU athletics from any appearance of wrongdoing. I remember hearing at some point that Dickson's orders were to not hire anyone who had any association with Sampson. That would have put Donny Newman at the top of the list.

 

[avabob11]

I remember that too, but I was never sure whether that was Dicksons marching orders or his own decision. He is most remembered by me for his comments on a Spokane talk show with Paul Sorenson. He said that he didn't think any hoops coach had been successful at WSU since Harshman by doing it "the right way". Pretty clear that such a statement can only refer to Sampson and Raveling. However things were different during the Raveling era. Hard to fault Rav for anything he was doing when Wooden had his San Diego sugar daddy bankrolling his recruiting.

 

[SaveFerris]

I remember that too, but I was never sure whether that was Dicksons marching orders or his own decision. He is most remembered by me for his comments on a Spokane talk show with Paul Sorenson. He said that he didn't think any hoops coach had been successful at WSU since Harshman by doing it "the right way". Pretty clear that such a statement can only refer to Sampson and Raveling. However things were different during the Raveling era. Hard to fault Rav for anything he was doing when Wooden had his San Diego sugar daddy bankrolling his recruiting.

Didn't Dickson also say a Big 12 coach (maybe Roy Williams?) told him they were now doing it the right way? The Big 12 coach immediately came out and said he didn't know who Dickson was, had never spoke to him before, and didn't know what he was talking about. Something along those lines anyway.

Dickson was our death penalty. It's fine if you want to go squeaky clean but that doesn't mean you hire incompetent coaches that have no business leading a program of any kind.