Aaron Hernandez of the NE Patriots and a Florida Gator under Urban Meyer
- Thread starter Coug1990
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Lawrence Phillips under Tom Osborne is in prison for 31 years and
is now accused of kicking his cellmate.
I think there needs to be a discussion about at some point not making an athlete accountable simply because they are an athlete, or in some cases boys will be boys. Jeremy Stevens mother did him no favors by not making him accountable. Rick Neuheisel and Mike Holmgren didn't help the cause. Same with Tom Osborne with Lawrence Phillips.
Maybe Leach saved CJ Mizel's life by saying there is an accountability factor. He may have shown him that talent alone does not cut it in the long term with him.
But it is kind of understandable the athletes have a feeling of invincibility. People go gaga over 4 star recruit this, that player is a must have. I am sure it is intoxicating for some, and for some they find that there talent is a get out of jail free card. While the athletes are ultimately responsible, I think parents, coaches and even the fans have some part in all of this.
is now accused of kicking his cellmate.
I think there needs to be a discussion about at some point not making an athlete accountable simply because they are an athlete, or in some cases boys will be boys. Jeremy Stevens mother did him no favors by not making him accountable. Rick Neuheisel and Mike Holmgren didn't help the cause. Same with Tom Osborne with Lawrence Phillips.
Maybe Leach saved CJ Mizel's life by saying there is an accountability factor. He may have shown him that talent alone does not cut it in the long term with him.
But it is kind of understandable the athletes have a feeling of invincibility. People go gaga over 4 star recruit this, that player is a must have. I am sure it is intoxicating for some, and for some they find that there talent is a get out of jail free card. While the athletes are ultimately responsible, I think parents, coaches and even the fans have some part in all of this.
Re: Lawrence Phillips under Tom Osborne is in prison for 31 years and
I especially remember the Seahawks drafting Stevens and from day one knew it was not going to end well. Holmgren definitely enabled him. All coaches think they will be the one to turn the player around and unlock all that potential. Remember left-handed pitcher Steve Howe? He was suspended for drug use 6-7 times and there were always teams reading to sign him once his suspension was over.
It is true that some athletes have had people telling them how great they are their entire lives. Heck, we see it in the recruiting season when we see high school players more interested in themselves than the team.
Yes, good post Ed.
Phillips is another bad dude. He never should have been let back onto the Nebraska team after what he did to his girlfriend. Yet, he was immensley talented and all Osborne cared about was if he could help them win the national championship, which he did.
I especially remember the Seahawks drafting Stevens and from day one knew it was not going to end well. Holmgren definitely enabled him. All coaches think they will be the one to turn the player around and unlock all that potential. Remember left-handed pitcher Steve Howe? He was suspended for drug use 6-7 times and there were always teams reading to sign him once his suspension was over.
It is true that some athletes have had people telling them how great they are their entire lives. Heck, we see it in the recruiting season when we see high school players more interested in themselves than the team.
Yes, good post Ed.
Re: Lawrence Phillips under Tom Osborne is in prison for 31 years and
Isn't that what the judicial system is for? Hernandez committed a crime, was arrested for it, put on trial, found guilty and now will spend the rest of his days in prison.
What do the New England Patriots have to do with it? Does their employing Hernandez have something to do with the crime he committed? Had NE never drafted him, and he never played a down in the NFL, would he not have killed the guy?
Isn't that what the judicial system is for? Hernandez committed a crime, was arrested for it, put on trial, found guilty and now will spend the rest of his days in prison.
What do the New England Patriots have to do with it? Does their employing Hernandez have something to do with the crime he committed? Had NE never drafted him, and he never played a down in the NFL, would he not have killed the guy?
Re: Lawrence Phillips under Tom Osborne is in prison for 31 years and
There's a certain small percentage of our population that are going to commit these crimes no matter what their circumstance. This is not a race, class, entitlement or parent issue and certainly not a football discussion.
This post was edited on 4/16 10:42 AM by froropmkr72
There's a certain small percentage of our population that are going to commit these crimes no matter what their circumstance. This is not a race, class, entitlement or parent issue and certainly not a football discussion.
This post was edited on 4/16 10:42 AM by froropmkr72
Do you think Stevens if he didn't have his athletic ability
would be given chance after chance after chance. They are enabling him.
New England knew Hernadez was a problem. They knew he was hanging out with the wrong people. Yet, they drafted him, then signed him to a large contract. So the lesson Stevens and Hernadez have learned isn't "don't do the crime if you can't do th etime", but rather you can do whatever you want without consequences as long as you have talent that they have.
This post was edited on 4/16 11:56 AM by CougEd
would be given chance after chance after chance. They are enabling him.
New England knew Hernadez was a problem. They knew he was hanging out with the wrong people. Yet, they drafted him, then signed him to a large contract. So the lesson Stevens and Hernadez have learned isn't "don't do the crime if you can't do th etime", but rather you can do whatever you want without consequences as long as you have talent that they have.
This post was edited on 4/16 11:56 AM by CougEd
Re: Your right, they are born this way, and at some point
"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit." -Oscar Wilde
"Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit." -Oscar Wilde
Re: Do you think Stevens if he didn't have his athletic ability
Because NE looked the other way on some marijuana possessions and bar fights, he figured he may just go ahead and kill a guy?
Kind of a logic leap, isn't it?
So, Hernandez wouldn't have killed a guy had the Patriots not drafted him?
Because NE looked the other way on some marijuana possessions and bar fights, he figured he may just go ahead and kill a guy?
Kind of a logic leap, isn't it?
Re: The Patriots did what every other person did as he was growing up
I've written, I don't know how many responses and deleted all of them. This continues to turn away from sports and I see all of it sliding into the morass of politics or religion or morals. None of which I want to talk about here. Suffice it to say, I don't see how a man's choice to murder someone is anyones fault but their own. 100%. Details become individualized but regardless, at some point in an individuals life, there was a crossroads and it seems these guys chose to go down the wrong path. That's on them, not anyone else.
I've written, I don't know how many responses and deleted all of them. This continues to turn away from sports and I see all of it sliding into the morass of politics or religion or morals. None of which I want to talk about here. Suffice it to say, I don't see how a man's choice to murder someone is anyones fault but their own. 100%. Details become individualized but regardless, at some point in an individuals life, there was a crossroads and it seems these guys chose to go down the wrong path. That's on them, not anyone else.
Re: The Patriots did what every other person did as he was growing up
I've read a lot of suggestions that the Patriots should be punished for this. I just can't make the connection that their employment of Hernandez somehow had something to do with him committing murder.
If he wasn't in the NFL, he'd be some guy who worked at Foot Locker that killed a guy. What's the difference? A crime is a crime, regardless of where you work.
Good point.
I've read a lot of suggestions that the Patriots should be punished for this. I just can't make the connection that their employment of Hernandez somehow had something to do with him committing murder.
If he wasn't in the NFL, he'd be some guy who worked at Foot Locker that killed a guy. What's the difference? A crime is a crime, regardless of where you work.
Re: The Patriots did what every other person did as he was growing up
I think the idea is that, the surrounding environment has nurtured a mentality of entitlement, of "I can get away with whatever I want, because I'm so-and-so. Coach turned away back in Florida when I beat the holy crap out of my girlfriend so I can do whatever I want, even murder. I won't get caught or if I do, I'll get a slap on the wrist. Nothing big".
If they were working at Foot Locker, they wouldn't be surrounded by hundreds of thousands of rabid fans, coaches that enable them to think they are invincible, they wouldn't have women falling all over them, money being thrown at them, etc. etc. I think most here believe that this nurtures a mentality of "I'm different than the rest of society. I can get away with crap normal people can't."
We can get into it pretty heavily, but IMHO, at some point these individuals allowed this odd mentality to infiltrate their heads. Ego overtook. It seems to be some weird leap, as Ed and others believe, "Since coach looked the other way, I can do this wrong stuff." Who wants to get away with things that all of society know is wrong, like murder?! It isn't like they didn't know murder was wrong People have, or should have, control of what they allow to enter their head, their mentality, their morals. They abandon societal norms, their morals, their life ideals because of ego, that is completely on them, IMHO. I get how intoxicating fame can be. Doesn't mean the act and mentality of murder is anyone else's fault but the murderer for abandoning societal norms, morals or life ideals. They "got away" with this or that for a while but not for long. That's still on them.
I think the idea is that, the surrounding environment has nurtured a mentality of entitlement, of "I can get away with whatever I want, because I'm so-and-so. Coach turned away back in Florida when I beat the holy crap out of my girlfriend so I can do whatever I want, even murder. I won't get caught or if I do, I'll get a slap on the wrist. Nothing big".
If they were working at Foot Locker, they wouldn't be surrounded by hundreds of thousands of rabid fans, coaches that enable them to think they are invincible, they wouldn't have women falling all over them, money being thrown at them, etc. etc. I think most here believe that this nurtures a mentality of "I'm different than the rest of society. I can get away with crap normal people can't."
We can get into it pretty heavily, but IMHO, at some point these individuals allowed this odd mentality to infiltrate their heads. Ego overtook. It seems to be some weird leap, as Ed and others believe, "Since coach looked the other way, I can do this wrong stuff." Who wants to get away with things that all of society know is wrong, like murder?! It isn't like they didn't know murder was wrong People have, or should have, control of what they allow to enter their head, their mentality, their morals. They abandon societal norms, their morals, their life ideals because of ego, that is completely on them, IMHO. I get how intoxicating fame can be. Doesn't mean the act and mentality of murder is anyone else's fault but the murderer for abandoning societal norms, morals or life ideals. They "got away" with this or that for a while but not for long. That's still on them.
Re: The Patriots did what every other person did as he was growing up
Football is not to blame here, it enabled him to get more publicity, had he not made it in football he would have been working the streets having people killed and we never would have heard about. Unfortunately there are bad people in all walks of life they can be construction workers, Doctors, Policemen, Politicians, Lawyers, ect, and in this case a football player.
In addition to Hernandez, that Florida team had Tebow, Riley Cooper, Percy Harvin, just to name a few, here is a comment from Tom Brady to Tebow in regards to his teammates.
This post was edited on 4/17 11:32 AM by 405 Coug
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/22784964/tom-brady-to-tim-tebow-in-2011-florida-teammates-a-lot-to-handle
Football is not to blame here, it enabled him to get more publicity, had he not made it in football he would have been working the streets having people killed and we never would have heard about. Unfortunately there are bad people in all walks of life they can be construction workers, Doctors, Policemen, Politicians, Lawyers, ect, and in this case a football player.
In addition to Hernandez, that Florida team had Tebow, Riley Cooper, Percy Harvin, just to name a few, here is a comment from Tom Brady to Tebow in regards to his teammates.
This post was edited on 4/17 11:32 AM by 405 Coug
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/22784964/tom-brady-to-tim-tebow-in-2011-florida-teammates-a-lot-to-handle
Re: Lawrence Phillips under Tom Osborne is in prison for 31 years and
I agree that after awhile the "enabling" mantra just doesn't fit. Hernandez is an adult. He used to make millions of dollars. He pissed it away. He chose to piss it away.
Stated differently, did his football ability keep him away from crime longer than if he wasn't a big time TE recruit coming out of HS?
I agree that after awhile the "enabling" mantra just doesn't fit. Hernandez is an adult. He used to make millions of dollars. He pissed it away. He chose to piss it away.
Re: The Patriots did what every other person did as he was growing up
This is how things like this relate to sports.
It may or may not. What I don't want is a team that I root for to recruit or draft a player with huge red flags. I don't care how good they are. I love the Seahawks as well. I did not like when they drafted Jeremy Stevens. If I were a team that was in position to draft Jameis Winston, I would not. I didn't want the Seahawks to sign DE Greg Hardy. I do no want the Seahawks to draft Frank Clark of Michigan.
This is how things like this relate to sports.
Re: Lawrence Phillips under Tom Osborne is in prison for 31 years and
I have also read that when his father unexpectedly died, something snapped within him. He never got into trouble before his dad was alive. Apparently, after he passed away is when Hernandez routinely caused trouble. However, I think what has troubled him was always inside.
Re: Do you think Stevens if he didn't have his athletic ability
I'd love to see a presser where the coach/GM/owner says "We're not pleased with [Insert name of top 5 player at his position] so we're going to let his contract expire knowing that some other team will pick him up the guy will produce like a top 5 player at this position and not even bother trading him to get anything we can before we tell him goodbye."
Re: The Patriots did what every other person did as he was growing up
I would point out that all of that are decisions, choices, events, etc. that the player in question made or allowed to transpire the way they did. Like you said, it's on them.
Re: The Patriots did what every other person did as he was growing up
I will agree whole heartedly with this.
I will agree whole heartedly with this.
Why are you only pointing the finger at the Patriots?
What about the Patriots fans that bought his jersey and tickets that helped fund that contract? What about his high school football coach or guidance counselor? What about Urban Meyer? What about the Florida fans that cheered for him, and bought tickets, and donated to cover his scholarship? What about Roger Goodell? What about the millions of Americans that watched a Patriots game and generated the eyeballs necessary for the NFL TV contracts?
What about the Patriots fans that bought his jersey and tickets that helped fund that contract? What about his high school football coach or guidance counselor? What about Urban Meyer? What about the Florida fans that cheered for him, and bought tickets, and donated to cover his scholarship? What about Roger Goodell? What about the millions of Americans that watched a Patriots game and generated the eyeballs necessary for the NFL TV contracts?
Re: The Patriots did what every other person did as he was growing up
The numbers vary, but from what I've read, NFL players are far less likely to commit crimes than the average US male in their age range.
You could argue being a professional athlete actually effectively incentivises them to NOT commit crimes.
Also, if it was football ability related entitlement that led to the crime, wouldn't there be a higher crime rate among NFL football players than the general population?
The numbers vary, but from what I've read, NFL players are far less likely to commit crimes than the average US male in their age range.
You could argue being a professional athlete actually effectively incentivises them to NOT commit crimes.
Re: Do you think Stevens if he didn't have his athletic ability
Actually, the way you phrased it, it's not a leap of logic. Hernandez would not have been in that place with those people at that time, so no, he would not have killed "that" guy at least. He clearly is a morally bankrupt person, so he likely would have gotten in serious trouble with the law...just not THAT serious trouble. If I have learned one thing during my time on earth, it's that one little thing has immense ramifications and ripple effects beyond that. Real life Butterfly Effects.
Actually, the way you phrased it, it's not a leap of logic. Hernandez would not have been in that place with those people at that time, so no, he would not have killed "that" guy at least. He clearly is a morally bankrupt person, so he likely would have gotten in serious trouble with the law...just not THAT serious trouble. If I have learned one thing during my time on earth, it's that one little thing has immense ramifications and ripple effects beyond that. Real life Butterfly Effects.
Hernandez's has serious mental health issues. His particular pathology would probably have resulted in him being in other different serious situations even if he was not a professional football player. He would have best been served by being placed in treatment long before and during his collegiate career.It is most probable that his personal problems were overlooked because of his performance on the football fleld.In not addressing his problems ,they felt that they were doing him a favor but in retrospect they were not doing him any favors.
There's a saying that "cheaters never prosper." I've never found that to be true. Cheaters and win-at-all-costs programs do a hell of a lot of winning in college football, and they go on to achieve great glory for their schools. Even the stain of cheating starts to wear off after some years, while the hardware, and the memory of that glory, goes on indefinitely.
People talk about running a clean program, which Mike Leach does. Going to Georgia, this always frustrates/d me about Mark Richt -- when Alabama (etc.) fans would come up and say they Richt is a "real good guy," you know they're saying, "hey, thanks for making your 13-win team a 10-win team by holding key players accountable." They're happy to start swinging on you when you've got one hand behind your back -- doing the wrong thing is a big part of what helps them get where they are, and teams doing the right thing routinely take themselves out of the equation and make it easier for them.
I almost always would rather be the winning team that gets real victories instead of moral victories. But the Hernandez case is sobering. Imagine yourself (as one of a couple victims of Hernandez!) on your knees in a field somewhere with a pistol pressed up against your temple, knowing you're going to die. And if you have the presence of mind, knowing that if somebody--his mom, his dad, his teachers, Urban freaking Meyer--would have just held him accountable for a period, maybe none of this would be happening.
Makes you realize how much bigger life is than cheating your way to 13 wins every year.
Oh, and also validates the feeling I have when I wake up everyday, rolling over and realizing Urban Meyer is still drawing breath, and knowing my day--and Odin Lloyd's, potentially--is just a little bit worse because of that.
People talk about running a clean program, which Mike Leach does. Going to Georgia, this always frustrates/d me about Mark Richt -- when Alabama (etc.) fans would come up and say they Richt is a "real good guy," you know they're saying, "hey, thanks for making your 13-win team a 10-win team by holding key players accountable." They're happy to start swinging on you when you've got one hand behind your back -- doing the wrong thing is a big part of what helps them get where they are, and teams doing the right thing routinely take themselves out of the equation and make it easier for them.
I almost always would rather be the winning team that gets real victories instead of moral victories. But the Hernandez case is sobering. Imagine yourself (as one of a couple victims of Hernandez!) on your knees in a field somewhere with a pistol pressed up against your temple, knowing you're going to die. And if you have the presence of mind, knowing that if somebody--his mom, his dad, his teachers, Urban freaking Meyer--would have just held him accountable for a period, maybe none of this would be happening.
Makes you realize how much bigger life is than cheating your way to 13 wins every year.
Oh, and also validates the feeling I have when I wake up everyday, rolling over and realizing Urban Meyer is still drawing breath, and knowing my day--and Odin Lloyd's, potentially--is just a little bit worse because of that.
Interesting...but the Bobby Jones of the sports world have always been rare birds. There was a time when MLB was even worse, in terms of how their morals stacked up against society's than it is now! I've always more or less believed that athletes are mostly a reflection of the society around them.
I generally detest the overuse of word "empowered," as it tends to shift responsibility away from the moral actor and onto 100% of the social forces that produced him. But modern society and culture have created the "athlete-worship" culture, so, in a way we are partly responsible for creating the culture that makes a Hernandez possible.
Here's a question.....If pro sports had NEVER come into being, or, had remain locked in the poverty wages of their early years, would minority populations and groups such as African Americans be better off or worse off??
I generally detest the overuse of word "empowered," as it tends to shift responsibility away from the moral actor and onto 100% of the social forces that produced him. But modern society and culture have created the "athlete-worship" culture, so, in a way we are partly responsible for creating the culture that makes a Hernandez possible.
Here's a question.....If pro sports had NEVER come into being, or, had remain locked in the poverty wages of their early years, would minority populations and groups such as African Americans be better off or worse off??
As if this subject hadn't veered into a politically correct/incorrect area, now you're going to inject race into this
Boy this should be a fun filled thread.
Re: Your right, they are born this way, and at some point
Born this way? How so?
This post was edited on 4/20 8:09 AM by How_did_this_happen?
Born this way? How so?
This post was edited on 4/20 8:09 AM by How_did_this_happen?
But that's what it is, right? Hernandez is now a political as well as an athletic figure. And I think we have to admit that we are more or less a "bread and circuses" society now anyway, right? There is no doubt that for some minority athletes, athletics has been their ticket out and up. But for the majority, the promises of the NFL, NBA, and MLB are illusions. They're not getting in. So we are deliberately setting up a mirage and peddling it as attainable. I suppose we could say that it is the athletic variety of the American Dream, where "everyone can grow up to be President." etc.
But if there were no highly paid pro sports would the African American community have shifted its goals into other, more attainable goals? Business, etc. We all know that the 4 and 5 star guys largely get special treatment from an early age. And that has not helped them. So I don't know.
