Realignment - time to get real

[Flatlandcoug]

That is a good link. That WCC agreement is all Expense and Zero Revenue for you guys. You've given up all media rights for both home and away games plus zero Tourney units if you get into the Tourney. The MWC agreement would have had a higher entry fee but I would think you would have earned more than a million dollars in basketball media revenue.

We need to get this Merger into the Pac12 going. We are wasting time and money.

The big issue there is whether or not schools currently in the MWC want to get away from some of the schools at the bottom end of the spectrum. WSU and OSU have no control over that and the contract is very punitive for them to do so in the short term. The fact that WSU and OSU didn't already formally join the conference means one of two things. 1) Both still are holding out hope that further movement happens and that they get invited into the Big 12 or 2) There are back door discussions with some of the MWC schools to pillage the MWC rather than do a full merger.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

That is a good link. That WCC agreement is all Expense and Zero Revenue for you guys. You've given up all media rights for both home and away games plus zero Tourney units if you get into the Tourney. The MWC agreement would have had a higher entry fee but I would think you would have earned more than a million dollars in basketball media revenue.

We need to get this Merger into the Pac12 going. We are wasting time and money.

Yep yep and yep. Gloria and the MW took us to the cleaners on the FB side. HS gym league (aka WCC) reamed us on that Year 2 exit fee. Quackkoff screwed the pooch - should have gone all in with the MW on basketball.

I've been thinking about OSU, and their silence is as deafening as WSU's. So, the hole card is that if they don't go along with the reverse merger, they can leave and WSU geta ALL the pending Pac-12 money. Kinda wonder how that will play out. How do you resolve a 1-1 tie in a vote?

 

[Loyal Coug1]

The big issue there is whether or not schools currently in the MWC want to get away from some of the schools at the bottom end of the spectrum. WSU and OSU have no control over that and the contract is very punitive for them to do so in the short term. The fact that WSU and OSU didn't already formally join the conference means one of two things. 1) Both still are holding out hope that further movement happens and that they get invited into the Big 12 or 2) There are back door discussions with some of the MWC schools to pillage the MWC rather than do a full merger.

Yeah I agree - let's get away from those bottom end schools. Sincerely, the Traitorous 10.

And I get your point. But so what if there are bottom dwellers? Hello Vanderbilt. Put some metrics in the new Pac-12/14 contract. Must sponsor certain sports (Hawaii). Must achieve minimum FB attendance levels. As I stated elsewhere, WSU would have been 4th in the MW in 2023 and 6th in 2022 in attendance. Use the merger to ramp these guys up a little. Look at the MAC. Not one school reached 20K in FB attendance. Conference USA? 1. Barely. MW? 7, Low bar? Sure. This is our new reality.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Yeah I agree - let's get away from those bottom end schools. Sincerely, the Traitorous 10.

And I get your point. But so what if there are bottom dwellers? Hello Vanderbilt. Put some metrics in the new Pac-12/14 contract. Must sponsor certain sports (Hawaii). Must achieve minimum FB attendance levels. As I stated elsewhere, WSU would have been 4th in the MW in 2023 and 6th in 2022 in attendance. Use the merger to ramp these guys up a little. Look at the MAC. Not one school reached 20K in FB attendance. Conference USA? 1. Barely. MW? 7, Low bar? Sure. This is our new reality.

The challenge for everyone right now is the unknowns of the near future. Right now, it's obvious that the SEC and B1G don't view the MWC and the Pac-2 as relevant conferences. Would a rebuilt Pac-12 with the following teams be worthy of being involved in any "Power 5" discussion?

Air Force
Boise State
Colorado State
Fresno State
Oregon State
SDSU
UNLV
Utah State
Wyoming
WSU

At face value...the answer is no. That said, I was talking to a co-worker who went to Kansas State and below is their 2024 football schedule:

UT-Martin
@ Tulane
Arizona
@ BYU
Ok State
@ CU
@ WVU
KU
@ Houston
ASU
Cincinnati
@ Iowa State

Is that a schedule that screams Power 5? They don't play Utah, Baylor, Texas Tech, UCF or TCU. Oklahoma State is the only team on their schedule that's been consistently good at the Power 5 level in recent years. Five teams weren't in a Power 5 conference two years ago. The problem for the Big 12 is that if KSU goes undefeated against that schedule, they'd probably be ranked outside the Top 5 behind one loss teams from the ACC, B1G and SEC. Why should a rebuilt Pac-12 be considered less worthy?

The SEC and B1G's answer is "yes, you are right, they aren't better, let's relegate the Big 12 and gutted ACC to the same status as the other Group of 5 programs". So, does it make sense to merge with the entire MWC and just embrace the mediocrity? As a fan of a school that's already been abandoned, the ACC and Big 12 need to make the realization that they are only losing ground moving forward and start thinking of how to beat the SEC and B1G at their own game. The 90+ teams that aren't in those two conferences are getting screwed and right now, they are saying, "Thank you sir may I have another" and that's not going to change soon. What needs to happen is that they just break away from those two conferences and refuse to play them. The value of the SEC and B1G tanks when 60% of the country quits watching. The networks are going to quickly learn that nobody wants to watch UW play Northwestern or Oklahoma play Kentucky. Of course, we live in a world where Joe Biden and Donald Trump are the only two real choices for President....so we are obviously completely and totally screwed when it comes to logic and common sense.

The asteroid can't come soon enough.

 

[mikalalas]

That is a good link. That WCC agreement is all Expense and Zero Revenue for you guys. You've given up all media rights for both home and away games plus zero Tourney units if you get into the Tourney. The MWC agreement would have had a higher entry fee but I would think you would have earned more than a million dollars in basketball media revenue.

We need to get this Merger into the Pac12 going. We are wasting time and money.

I'm ok with that as long as Top 9 vote to dissolve MWC, and leave bottom 3 behind at worst.

I still prefer the PAC 2 grabbing BSU, SDSU, Fresno State, UNLV, Airforce, either Utah State, or CSU, either one, top 5,6, leave the rest behind, get either Memphis, or Tulane or UTSA or NDSU the best FCS team on the planet, to form the PAC 8+

But if can't, won't do that, then at least only take the top 9(BSU, SDSU, Fresno St, UNLV, Airforce, CSU, Utah St, Wyoming, 1 other, leave 3 worst behind, then add 1 of either Memphis or Tulane or UTSA or NDSU to get to PAC 12+

If the TOP 9 MWC teams are smart, that's what they will do.

If they are dumb, they will try to force, only do a merge whole MWC into PAC.

The take top 9 situation is better, more money, better bowls, better chance at getting a semi guaranteed 1 of 12 CFP spots, spot, where 10-2, 11-1, 12-0 champ can't possibly get left out, replaced by 12-0 AAC, MAC, C-USA champ, like could happen if take whole MWC, the take top 9 is better then take whole MWC.

And if take top 9, and add 1 more from a pool of Memphis, Tulane, UTSA, NDSU, then adding top 9, won't cost anything, and adding 1 more, will cost extremely little comparatively, and will still have about 239 million left over.

The only ones in favor of adding whole MWC to PAC are the extreme minority of fans like Loyal, and the bottom 3 MWC team, programs, fans, and a extreme minority of others, and only way take whole MWC, instead of either top 9, or poaching, is if the Pres, AD are either stupid, an or the top 9 MWC teams, programs, and if their Pres's, AD'S stupid, an or if forced as ultimate last resort

Taking the TOP 9, or poaching the top 4,5,6,7 doesn't have to happen now, this second, but they need to be working on it, and need to have it happen within about 7 to 9 to 11 months. That's plenty of wait time to see what happens in realignment, and avoids a situation where have to pay 35 million per team, instead of 18 mil per team, etc.

 

[moxeecoug]

Thought I edited this thing. Yes I am 100% right. As usual. All-knowing, all-seeing, almost gawd-like in my abilities.

The Pac 2's Contracts with the MWC and WCC

The Pac 2 chose price over quality for a basketball partner.

billfarley.substack.com

And very humble too!!

 

[Loyal Coug1]

The challenge for everyone right now is the unknowns of the near future. Right now, it's obvious that the SEC and B1G don't view the MWC and the Pac-2 as relevant conferences. Would a rebuilt Pac-12 with the following teams be worthy of being involved in any "Power 5" discussion?

Air Force
Boise State
Colorado State
Fresno State
Oregon State
SDSU
UNLV
Utah State
Wyoming
WSU

At face value...the answer is no. That said, I was talking to a co-worker who went to Kansas State and below is their 2024 football schedule:

UT-Martin
@ Tulane
Arizona
@ BYU
Ok State
@ CU
@ WVU
KU
@ Houston
ASU
Cincinnati
@ Iowa State

Is that a schedule that screams Power 5? They don't play Utah, Baylor, Texas Tech, UCF or TCU. Oklahoma State is the only team on their schedule that's been consistently good at the Power 5 level in recent years. Five teams weren't in a Power 5 conference two years ago. The problem for the Big 12 is that if KSU goes undefeated against that schedule, they'd probably be ranked outside the Top 5 behind one loss teams from the ACC, B1G and SEC. Why should a rebuilt Pac-12 be considered less worthy?

The SEC and B1G's answer is "yes, you are right, they aren't better, let's relegate the Big 12 and gutted ACC to the same status as the other Group of 5 programs". So, does it make sense to merge with the entire MWC and just embrace the mediocrity? As a fan of a school that's already been abandoned, the ACC and Big 12 need to make the realization that they are only losing ground moving forward and start thinking of how to beat the SEC and B1G at their own game. The 90+ teams that aren't in those two conferences are getting screwed and right now, they are saying, "Thank you sir may I have another" and that's not going to change soon. What needs to happen is that they just break away from those two conferences and refuse to play them. The value of the SEC and B1G tanks when 60% of the country quits watching. The networks are going to quickly learn that nobody wants to watch UW play Northwestern or Oklahoma play Kentucky. Of course, we live in a world where Joe Biden and Donald Trump are the only two real choices for President....so we are obviously completely and totally screwed when it comes to logic and common sense.

The asteroid can't come soon enough.

They have 9 Conference games?

 

[Loyal Coug1]

I'm ok with that as long as Top 9 vote to dissolve MWC, and leave bottom 3 behind at worst.

I still prefer the PAC 2 grabbing BSU, SDSU, Fresno State, UNLV, Airforce, either Utah State, or CSU, either one, top 5,6, leave the rest behind, get either Memphis, or Tulane or UTSA or NDSU the best FCS team on the planet, to form the PAC 8+

But if can't, won't do that, then at least only take the top 9(BSU, SDSU, Fresno St, UNLV, Airforce, CSU, Utah St, Wyoming, 1 other, leave 3 worst behind, then add 1 of either Memphis or Tulane or UTSA or NDSU to get to PAC 12+

If the TOP 9 MWC teams are smart, that's what they will do.

If they are dumb, they will try to force, only do a merge whole MWC into PAC.

The take top 9 situation is better, more money, better bowls, better chance at getting a semi guaranteed 1 of 12 CFP spots, spot, where 10-2, 11-1, 12-0 champ can't possibly get left out, replaced by 12-0 AAC, MAC, C-USA champ, like could happen if take whole MWC, the take top 9 is better then take whole MWC.

And if take top 9, and add 1 more from a pool of Memphis, Tulane, UTSA, NDSU, then adding top 9, won't cost anything, and adding 1 more, will cost extremely little comparatively, and will still have about 239 million left over.

The only ones in favor of adding whole MWC to PAC are the extreme minority of fans like Loyal, and the bottom 3 MWC team, programs, fans, and a extreme minority of others, and only way take whole MWC, instead of either top 9, or poaching, is if the Pres, AD are either stupid, an or the top 9 MWC teams, programs, and if their Pres's, AD'S stupid, an or if forced as ultimate last resort

Taking the TOP 9, or poaching the top 4,5,6,7 doesn't have to happen now, this second, but they need to be working on it, and need to have it happen within about 7 to 9 to 11 months. That's plenty of wait time to see what happens in realignment, and avoids a situation where have to pay 35 million per team, instead of 18 mil per team, etc.

Mik you have no idea what the vast majority of any fanbase thinks or wishes for. Neither do I. In fact WSU should do a fan poll to find out.

Tulane and Memphis will never join the Pac. You keep dragging them out as if they are panting at the door. They aren't. NDSU? Why not just lure Montana in?

And tell me about these "better bowls". Which ones?

 

[mikalalas]

Mik you have no idea what the vast majority of any fanbase thinks or wishes for. Neither do I. In fact WSU should do a fan poll to find out.

Tulane and Memphis will never join the Pac. You keep dragging them out as if they are panting at the door. They aren't. NDSU? Why not just lure Montana in?

And tell me about these "better bowls". Which ones?

Because NDSU is the best FCS on the planet, and better then University of Idaho, Montana, and should be not only D1, but be in best G5, hybrid G5/semi power 5 esque conference where they belong, and geographically they are in the western half of the country. Montana is nowhere near NDSU, and NDSU is the ONLY FCS level team worth taking.

As far as Memphis, Tulane goes, they wouldn't join if take whole MWC, but if took just BSU, SDSU, Fresno St, UNLV, Airforce, COMBINED with if the ACC being ABSOLUTELY GUTTED, like it probably eventually will and Memphis, Tulane in that kind of situation might semi probably join that kind of PAC, or at least there would be a ok chance of it

And got to at least TRY. IF they(Memphis, or Tulane)say yes, great, and if they say no, then move on, ask UTSA next, if they say yes, great, if say no, then move on to NDSU, who would guaranteed say yes.

 

[Meister_Rebel]

I don't see a lot of options for the Pac2. Pac2 holding out for a P5 invite is like UNLV dreaming of a P5 invite. It's just not going to happen anytime soon. We can hope but hope is not a good strategy.

A reverse merger with the MWC is the easiest solution where you get to keep all your current money and you get to keep all your future NCAA Tourney units. That kind of money doesn't come along very often and to give that up in buying schools to rebuild the Pac12 just doesn't seem smart. At the end of that day you're still a G5 conference.

Sure, the MWC has a few schools we would like to drop. Especially unr . Sure, they may drag our media revenue down. Our current media revenue is just a hair over $4 million per school. Dropping 3 schools isn't going to automatically get us $10 million either. Adding WSU and OSU may not even get us $10 million regardless if we join the Pac12 or stay in the MWC. Remember, even the AAC media contract is $7 million and that was with three of the schools they just lost to the B12. That may sound horrible to the Pac2 but do you want to give up $50 or more million dollars to rebuild for that potential kind of revenue. Be smart and keep your money.

 

[mikalalas]

I don't see a lot of options for the Pac2. Pac2 holding out for a P5 invite is like UNLV dreaming of a P5 invite. It's just not going to happen anytime soon. We can hope but hope is not a good strategy.

A reverse merger with the MWC is the easiest solution where you get to keep all your current money and you get to keep all your future NCAA Tourney units. That kind of money doesn't come along very often and to give that up in buying schools to rebuild the Pac12 just doesn't seem smart. At the end of that day you're still a G5 conference.

Sure, the MWC has a few schools we would like to drop. Especially unr . Sure, they may drag our media revenue down. Our current media revenue is just a hair over $4 million per school. Dropping 3 schools isn't going to automatically get us $10 million either. Adding WSU and OSU may not even get us $10 million regardless if we join the Pac12 or stay in the MWC. Remember, even the AAC media contract is $7 million and that was with three of the schools they just lost to the B12. That may sound horrible to the Pac2 but do you want to give up $50 or more million dollars to rebuild for that potential kind of revenue. Be smart and keep your money.

Then just have the top 9 MWC vote to dissolve MWC, leave the 3 worst behind, and then join PAC, and then pay 9 mil to 18 mil to add ONE of either Memphis, or Tulane or UTSA, or get NDSU for near free, and still have about 233 mil to 239 mil out of 250 mil, get at least 13 mil per year per team + 1 semi guaranteed 1 of 12 CFP spots to 10-2, 11-1, 12-0 PAC champ, 1 January bowl, better bowls then the Idaho potato head bowl, LA BOWL, and get the NCAA tourney units, etc.

That's better then taking the whole entire MWC money wise, etc.

 

[Meister_Rebel]

Then just have the top 9 MWC vote to dissolve MWC, leave the 3 worst behind, and then join PAC, and then pay 9 mil to 18 mil to add ONE of either Memphis, or Tulane or UTSA, or get NDSU for near free, and still have about 233 mil to 239 mil out of 250 mil, get at least 13 mil per year per team + 1 semi guaranteed 1 of 12 CFP spots to 10-2, 11-1, 12-0 PAC champ, 1 January bowl, better bowls then the Idaho potato head bowl, LA BOWL, and get the NCAA tourney units, etc.

That's better then taking the whole entire MWC money wise, etc.

I'll play along. Let's say you go after the 9 schools. One President has to bring this up at a MWC Board meeting. I don't know when their next meeting is scheduled. Your best option is to go all clandestine and meet with the SDSU President. Get her to bring this up for a vote at that next meeting. I would choose her because Gloria, imo, made her look foolish when she attempted a back stroke on giving notice to the MWC of their intent to join the Pac12. She did this before the Pac12 even accepted SDSU. After they gave notice, and the Pac12 went silent on their intentions, she scrambled to say her intent wasn't to give notice but, to just explore. Well, Gloria had none of that and told SDSU that you will pay the full $17 million dollar exit fee and we accept your exit notice. To shorten the story SDSU came back to the MWC after having paid the MWC nearly $100,000 in lawyer fees. The SDSU President, imo, has the greatest motivation to try and stick it to Gloria and the MWC.

Now we have to wait on that vote and we don't even know when they will meet for that vote. You would have to hope that the SDSU President is smart enough to line up her ducks in a row and get a feel for who would be in favor of voting to dissolve the MWC. There will be fear in at least 3 schools and maybe one or two more who would be afraid to vote yes as they may be the ones left out.

I think this is too much of an ask in my opinion.

 

[mikalalas]

I'll play along. Let's say you go after the 9 schools. One President has to bring this up at a MWC Board meeting. I don't know when their next meeting is scheduled. Your best option is to go all clandestine and meet with the SDSU President. Get her to bring this up for a vote at that next meeting. I would choose her because Gloria, imo, made her look foolish when she attempted a back stroke on giving notice to the MWC of their intent to join the Pac12. She did this before the Pac12 even accepted SDSU. After they gave notice, and the Pac12 went silent on their intentions, she scrambled to say her intent wasn't to give notice but, to just explore. Well, Gloria had none of that and told SDSU that you will pay the full $17 million dollar exit fee and we accept your exit notice. To shorten the story SDSU came back to the MWC after having paid the MWC nearly $100,000 in lawyer fees. The SDSU President, imo, has the greatest motivation to try and stick it to Gloria and the MWC.

Now we have to wait on that vote and we don't even know when they will meet for that vote. You would have to hope that the SDSU President is smart enough to line up her ducks in a row and get a feel for who would be in favor of voting to dissolve the MWC. There will be fear in at least 3 schools and maybe one or two more who would be afraid to vote yes as they may be the ones left out.

I think this is too much of an ask in my opinion.

Taking top 9 isn't, or shouldn't be hard, assuming reasonable, logical, etc leaders, etc.

If I was in charge, either if I was Schultz, or if I was PAC 2 commish, here is what I would do.

1. I would start, talk with SDSU first, then Fresno St, then UNLV, then Airforce, then BSU(to be able to say to BSU the top programs are on board, you should join too, here why), then CSU, then Utah St, then Wyoming, then lastly 1 more. Then after all 9 in my camp, I would goto Gloria and say "Gloria here is proof that all top 9 of MWC in my camp. They will vote to dissolve conference. Then they will join PAC, and you will be out of a conference, job, unless you help facilitate this and become the new commish of the PAC 11/12/2 conference"

 

[Stretch 74]

I'll play along. Let's say you go after the 9 schools. One President has to bring this up at a MWC Board meeting. I don't know when their next meeting is scheduled. Your best option is to go all clandestine and meet with the SDSU President. Get her to bring this up for a vote at that next meeting. I would choose her because Gloria, imo, made her look foolish when she attempted a back stroke on giving notice to the MWC of their intent to join the Pac12. She did this before the Pac12 even accepted SDSU. After they gave notice, and the Pac12 went silent on their intentions, she scrambled to say her intent wasn't to give notice but, to just explore. Well, Gloria had none of that and told SDSU that you will pay the full $17 million dollar exit fee and we accept your exit notice. To shorten the story SDSU came back to the MWC after having paid the MWC nearly $100,000 in lawyer fees. The SDSU President, imo, has the greatest motivation to try and stick it to Gloria and the MWC.

Now we have to wait on that vote and we don't even know when they will meet for that vote. You would have to hope that the SDSU President is smart enough to line up her ducks in a row and get a feel for who would be in favor of voting to dissolve the MWC. There will be fear in at least 3 schools and maybe one or two more who would be afraid to vote yes as they may be the ones left out.

I think this is too much of an ask in my opinion.

Let's assume (for discussion only) that 9-10 MWC schools will actually vote to dissolve the conference in order to establish the new PAC as a stronger conference that it would be if all MWC teams come in. So what about the teams left behind? Do we care about the teams left behind? Is there any empathy towards them as a result of what has happened to WSU/OSU is it an "every man for himself" situation? Would we work with other conferences to encourage them to accept the leftovers from the MWC, probably with $$$?

Again for discussion purposes, what would be the likely landing spots for the MWC teams that get left behind?

 

[Meister_Rebel]

Let's assume (for discussion only) that 9-10 MWC schools will actually vote to dissolve the conference in order to establish the new PAC as a stronger conference that it would be if all MWC teams come in. So what about the teams left behind? Do we care about the teams left behind? Is there any empathy towards them as a result of what has happened to WSU/OSU is it an "every man for himself" situation? Would we work with other conferences to encourage them to accept the leftovers from the MWC, probably with $$$?

Again for discussion purposes, what would be the likely landing spots for the MWC teams that get left behind?

The MWC was formed by 8 schools that in a clandestine meeting at Denver International Airport voted to leave the WAC. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do for your own survival. I wouldn't think the Pac12 is going to feel remorse over leaving anyone in the MWC out. Just the opposite. They don't want them in the first place.

Best guess as a landing spot for the left out schools would be Conference USA.

 

[dgibbons]

Well, several reasons.
1. the MW media contract expires in 2 years. There is already talk about it. Way better for all involved if it is the new Pac-12/14 negotiating than an uncertain MW.
2. The current Pac bowl contracts expire in 2 years. Best to have the new Pac 12/14 in place well in advance of that if we want to try to salvage any of them. Not sure about the MW Bowl agreements (I'll find out), but could be similar if they want to dump the crappiest ones in favor of ours.
3. In our current affiliation agreements, we can't win the league in FB, and are paying through the nose for the privilege of playing the MW. With no media rights except whatever pittance we can get from the CW (for which the FY25 budget is $-0-). I guess we are eligible to win league in the wcc in BB, but we don't get to share in any NCAA money generated by the league - even if our teams generate it. And we are paying to play, although much less than in FB.
4. I would not at all bank on the MW waiting around on us for 2 years. This realignment that you speak of could quite easily stretch over to SDSU and/or UNLV. Or the MW could just say F-you we are just fine as we are if we jack them around for too long.
5. Our cash windfall(s) are already being spent, and it would be stupid to waste one dime of it on luring TBD teams into a new Pac. Which we need to maintain to get our NCAA money (I think $30 million in years 3-6). Not chump change for 2 teams to split.
6. I have yet to hear of any other realignment scenarios that are realistic and/or that don't just suck generally. A Western ACC pod including a handful of MW teams that we pay to have join? What f-ing ever. The Big-12? That ship has sailed and ain't coming back.

I'm sure there are more reasons. Oh yeah - #7. The sooner we reverse merge, the sooner we can close the existing Pac-12 offices and turn the MW's into the Pac-12/14. How many millions is that costing us currently?

For a single guy that enjoys telling us about his personal life, you seem anxious for WSU to commit.

Why do you want to commit to MWC when the dust is far from settled? There is no reason to think that the MWC will not be pleased with WSU and OSU becoming members, a reverse merger, or whatever sometime in the future.

 

[mikalalas]

Let's assume (for discussion only) that 9-10 MWC schools will actually vote to dissolve the conference in order to establish the new PAC as a stronger conference that it would be if all MWC teams come in. So what about the teams left behind? Do we care about the teams left behind? Is there any empathy towards them as a result of what has happened to WSU/OSU is it an "every man for himself" situation? Would we work with other conferences to encourage them to accept the leftovers from the MWC, probably with $$$?

Again for discussion purposes, what would be the likely landing spots for the MWC teams that get left behind?

It's a little tiny bit sad that 3 MWC teams get left behind, but it's what has to be done, and was forced on WSU, fans by the leaving PAC 2 behind.

I would like to think, and think the PAC 2 would help the 3 left behind to join the MAC, C-USA, AAC, Big West, WAC, Big Sky, etc.

And the 3 left behind would probably be able to goto MAC, C-USA, AAC. But even if they had to goto WAC, Big West, Big Sky, that's nowhere even remotely close to PAC 2 being left behind as far as money lost, etc. Idaho voluntarily went from being in either the Sun Belt, MAC, in G5, back to Big Sky. If you ask Idaho, that wasn't a big deal, at least for them at least. And whether the 3 left behind in MWC or MAC, or Sun Belt, or C-USA, AAC, they are pretty much in same position as one of bottom programs, no matter what happens, unless they goto WAC, Big West, Big Sky, etc, instead of to another G5.

As for whether to give them money, no to that, and if give them money, then only give the very little as need as much of thatc250 million as possible.

But if do it like I outlined, each of the top 9 understands that they are not going to be left behind, and will be in PAC, and will vote to dissolve MWC, so no need to give money or a semi lot of money, to secure 9 votes, as each of the top 9 would, should understand that to be in PAC, not be left behind, that they have to vote to dissolve MWC, that the PAC is not going to take whole, all 12 MWC teams, and only take UP TO 9, that could take less then 9, if top 9 don't vote to dissolve MWC in order to join PAC, leave 3 worst behind.

And should the PAC voluntarily give 3 worst MWC teams left behind money? No. And if do, it should only be a little amount of money.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

For a single guy that enjoys telling us about his personal life, you seem anxious for WSU to commit.

Why do you want to commit to MWC when the dust is far from settled? There is no reason to think that the MWC will not be pleased with WSU and OSU becoming members, a reverse merger, or whatever sometime in the future.

WTF Gibby. You ask a question - "why the urgency". I reply with 7 reasons why, none of which have anything to do with my personal life, which I don't believe I have mentioned in a long time. So in addition to that inane and off the wall comment, you simply ask the same question. Feel free to disagree with or pick apart any or all of my 7 reasons, or better yet just scroll on by.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

It's a little tiny bit sad that 3 MWC teams get left behind, but it's what has to be done, and was forced on WSU, fans by the leaving PAC 2 behind.

I would like to think, and think the PAC 2 would help the 3 left behind to join the MAC, C-USA, AAC, Big West, WAC, Big Sky, etc.

And the 3 left behind would probably be able to goto MAC, C-USA, AAC. But even if they had to goto WAC, Big West, Big Sky, that's nowhere even remotely close to PAC 2 being left behind as far as money lost, etc. Idaho voluntarily went from being in either the Sun Belt, MAC, in G5, back to Big Sky. If you ask Idaho, that wasn't a big deal, at least for them at least. And whether the 3 left behind in MWC or MAC, or Sun Belt, or C-USA, AAC, they are pretty much in same position as one of bottom programs, no matter what happens, unless they goto WAC, Big West, Big Sky, etc, instead of to another G5.

As for whether to give them money, no to that, and if give them money, then only give the very little as need as much of thatc250 million as possible.

But if do it like I outlined, each of the top 9 understands that they are not going to be left behind, and will be in PAC, and will vote to dissolve MWC, so no need to give money or a semi lot of money, to secure 9 votes, as each of the top 9 would, should understand that to be in PAC, not be left behind, that they have to vote to dissolve MWC, that the PAC is not going to take whole, all 12 MWC teams, and only take UP TO 9, that could take less then 9, if top 9 don't vote to dissolve MWC in order to join PAC, leave 3 worst behind.

And should the PAC voluntarily give 3 worst MWC teams left behind money? No. And if do, it should only be a little amount of money.

Mik the WAC and Big West do not play Football.

 

[LoveJeffersonFanClub]

There are WAC schools that play football. Mostly the Texas schools and Utah Tech. Last year they partnered with the ASUN for scheduling. Next year they are combining in football to form the United Athletic Conference for football only.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

There are WAC schools that play football. Mostly the Texas schools and Utah Tech. Last year they partnered with the ASUN for scheduling. Next year they are combining in football to form the United Athletic Conference for football only.

Thanks for correcting me. Hey, if WSU sits on its hands long enough maybe that league will be an option for us.

United Athletic Conference - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Wazzubrooz]

Everyone is waiting for the ACC to blow apart. Nothing will happen until then. At that point there will be additional pieces to look at and consider.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

Everyone is waiting for the ACC to blow apart. Nothing will happen until then. At that point there will be additional pieces to look at and consider.

And what would those pieces be? You guys just keep thinking some magic scenario will present itself. It didn't and it won't. They don't want WSU and OSU. And any scenario that they would, fantasy as that is, would be a shitshow of a f-ed up cobbled-together mess.

I have yet to read any cogent post that describes anything that is realistic. Oh, West coast ACC pod? Oh, spend $60+ million to lure the top MW teams into it? What a bunch of shit. NO ONE in the country, except this board, speaks to anything of the sort. And it would be shit if it happened, which it won't.

 

[COUGinNCW]

The big issue there is whether or not schools currently in the MWC want to get away from some of the schools at the bottom end of the spectrum. WSU and OSU have no control over that and the contract is very punitive for them to do so in the short term. The fact that WSU and OSU didn't already formally join the conference means one of two things. 1) Both still are holding out hope that further movement happens and that they get invited into the Big 12 or 2) There are back door discussions with some of the MWC schools to pillage the MWC rather than do a full merger.

Or both are happening.

 

[CougSinceBirth]

And what would those pieces be? You guys just keep thinking some magic scenario will present itself. It didn't and it won't. They don't want WSU and OSU. And any scenario that they would, fantasy as that is, would be a shitshow of a f-ed up cobbled-together mess.

I have yet to read any cogent post that describes anything that is realistic. Oh, West coast ACC pod? Oh, spend $60+ million to lure the top MW teams into it? What a bunch of shit. NO ONE in the country, except this board, speaks to anything of the sort. And it would be shit if it happened, which it won't.

This is also assuming WSU and OSU want the MWC...

That may be the reality, but patience gives a better shot at getting closer to what they're looking for. The MWC option will be always available.

 

[UberCougars]

As is the Big Sky.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

This is also assuming WSU and OSU want the MWC...

That may be the reality, but patience gives a better shot at getting closer to what they're looking for. The MWC option will be always available.

And what might "they" (we) be looking for? And at what cost/benefit?

Also, how do you know that the MW will always be available? Before or after the allegedly soon to be broken ACC takes in SDSU and UNLV?

 

[dgibbons]

WTF Gibby. You ask a question - "why the urgency". I reply with 7 reasons why, none of which have anything to do with my personal life, which I don't believe I have mentioned in a long time. So in addition to that inane and off the wall comment, you simply ask the same question. Feel free to disagree with or pick apart any or all of my 7 reasons, or better yet just scroll on by.

Because none of them are germane to the conversation. Why are any of those urgent? Why would they preclude OSU and WSU from joining the MWC? The ACC is the brink of collapse. The Big XII gets poached constantly.

So again, WHY THE URGENCY to commit WSU to a group of 5 conference? You're basically saying that WSU should settle for the gal at the end of the bar two hours before closing time because it's easy and convenient. Are you really that enamored with the MWC commissioner?

 

[dgibbons]

And what might "they" (we) be looking for? And at what cost/benefit?

Also, how do you know that the MW will always be available? Before or after the allegedly soon to be broken ACC takes in SDSU and UNLV?

Where are the MWC schools going to go, since they haven't already gone there? They are schools others don't want. There's been several rounds of realignment. Why would that change?

 

[CougSinceBirth]

And what might "they" (we) be looking for? And at what cost/benefit?

Also, how do you know that the MW will always be available? Before or after the allegedly soon to be broken ACC takes in SDSU and UNLV?

WSU/OSU is looking to stay P4 wherever they get in with the most money. Can't imagine there's any other long-term goal except that.

If that doesn't happen, the MWC will still be around, and the money joining is likely the same whether WSU/OSU joined now or then.

 

[mikalalas]

And what might "they" (we) be looking for? And at what cost/benefit?

Also, how do you know that the MW will always be available? Before or after the allegedly soon to be broken ACC takes in SDSU and UNLV?

The ACC won't take SDSU, UNLV. They would take Memphis, Tulane. Also the ACC is at great risk of the Big 10, SEC, Big 12, taking everybody in ACC, but Boston College, Syracuse, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest, NC State, GUTTING the ACC

And SDSU, Fresno St, BSU would probably choose PAC X, over a GUTTED ACC

And even if the ACC would take SDSU, etc, it would probably be in about 6 to 9 to 12+ months from now, IF it happened.

Also the PAC 2 has probably already been talking with SDSU, probably telling them things like, we'll take you in about 1 year to 18 months, and here is why it will take that long.

Also SDSU has tried 2 times to join PAC, and got shut down by MWC conference, so SDSU really wants to join the PAC 2, rebuild the PAC

Your seeing monsters under the bed. WSU, PAC 2 needs to wait at least 4 to 6 to 8 months , before it does anything.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

Because none of them are germane to the conversation. Why are any of those urgent? Why would they preclude OSU and WSU from joining the MWC? The ACC is the brink of collapse. The Big XII gets poached constantly.

So again, WHY THE URGENCY to commit WSU to a group of 5 conference? You're basically saying that WSU should settle for the gal at the end of the bar two hours before closing time because it's easy and convenient. Are you really that enamored with the MWC commissioner?

Oh c'mon. ALL of my 7 reasons are germane to the conversation. Financial considerations, media monies, lack of revenue sharing under either affiliation agreement. Etc.

You just want to sit there and spew out insults rather than have an adult discussion or offer any intelligent feedback.

And the ACC is not on the brink of collapse. Read the sports news (hint - there is nothing recent of substance). And how is Gloria being cute for her age germane to the conversation?

F-it. You bring nothing to the table. I'm done wasting my keystrokes.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

The ACC won't take SDSU, UNLV. They would take Memphis, Tulane. Also the ACC is at great risk of the Big 10, SEC, Big 12, taking everybody in ACC, but Boston College, Syracuse, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest, NC State, GUTTING the ACC

And SDSU, Fresno St, BSU would probably choose PAC X, over a GUTTED ACC

And even if the ACC would take SDSU, etc, it would probably be in about 6 to 9 to 12+ months from now, IF it happened.

Also the PAC 2 has probably already been talking with SDSU, probably telling them things like, we'll take you in about 1 year to 18 months, and here is why it will take that long.

Also SDSU has tried 2 times to join PAC, and got shut down by MWC conference, so SDSU really wants to join the PAC 2, rebuild the PAC

Your seeing monsters under the bed. WSU, PAC 2 needs to wait at least 4 to 6 to 8 months , before it does anything.

Four ACC expansion candidates the conference could target if Florida State leaves

The ACC may be in the market for new programs if they end up losing Florida State

www.si.com

 

[dgibbons]

Oh c'mon. ALL of my 7 reasons are germane to the conversation. Financial considerations, media monies, lack of revenue sharing under either affiliation agreement. Etc.

You just want to sit there and spew out insults rather than have an adult discussion or offer any intelligent feedback.

And the ACC is not on the brink of collapse. Read the sports news (hint - there is nothing recent of substance). And how is Gloria being cute for her age germane to the conversation?

F-it. You bring nothing to the table. I'm done wasting my keystrokes.

Not really.

1. the MW media contract expires in 2 years. There is already talk about it. Way better for all involved if it is the new Pac-12/14 negotiating than an uncertain MW.

The contract can be written to provide for new entrants. That's what has occurred with contracts for other conferences. The current deal can be extended. A new contract could be voided or renegotiated upon entry of new members. All kinds of possibilities.


2. The current Pac bowl contracts expire in 2 years. Best to have the new Pac 12/14 in place well in advance of that if we want to try to salvage any of them. Not sure about the MW Bowl agreements (I'll find out), but could be similar if they want to dump the crappiest ones in favor of ours.

There is no shortage of bowls. I don't know why, I guess some cities enjoy losing money, ESPN needs programming in mid-December, or whatever. We're not keeping the Rose Bowl, or Alamo or Vegas no matter what happens. So we're talking about retaining 3rd tier bowls like the Holiday and the Sun.

3. In our current affiliation agreements, we can't win the league in FB, and are paying through the nose for the privilege of playing the MW. With no media rights except whatever pittance we can get from the CW (for which the FY25 budget is $-0-). I guess we are eligible to win league in the wcc in BB, but we don't get to share in any NCAA money generated by the league - even if our teams generate it. And we are paying to play, although much less than in FB.

So what? Sunk cost. Joining the MWC now to commence after the 2025 season doesn't change any of that.

4. I would not at all bank on the MW waiting around on us for 2 years. This realignment that you speak of could quite easily stretch over to SDSU and/or UNLV. Or the MW could just say F-you we are just fine as we are if we jack them around for too long.

Again, wrong. There have been several rounds of realignment. If another conference wanted a current MWC that school would already be gone. Like Utah.


5. Our cash windfall(s) are already being spent, and it would be stupid to waste one dime of it on luring TBD teams into a new Pac. Which we need to maintain to get our NCAA money (I think $30 million in years 3-6). Not chump change for 2 teams to split.

Wonderful bean counting. And a completely false dichotomy. A merger or other arrangement with the MWC or reconstituting the Pac are not the only options.

6. I have yet to hear of any other realignment scenarios that are realistic and/or that don't just suck generally. A Western ACC pod including a handful of MW teams that we pay to have join? What f-ing ever. The Big-12? That ship has sailed and ain't coming back.

Pay attention. The ACC is on the verge of collapse. The Big XII is already in survival mode. Chaos is opportunity. And again- the MWC isn't going anywhere.

I'm sure there are more reasons. Oh yeah - #7. The sooner we reverse merge, the sooner we can close the existing Pac-12 offices and turn the MW's into the Pac-12/14. How many millions is that costing us currently?

Again, lovely bean counting. Throwing in the towel while there are genuine possibilities to remain in/join a power conference don't justify that. And why do the existing Pac-12 offices need to be completely closed, rather than just scaled down? The wind up of the Pac-12 networks has to be done by someone not named Kirk Schulz or Interim AD Anne McCoy. But I guess you and Gloria could ride off into the sunset in Mazda Miata.

I took less than ten minutes to write this.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

Not really.

1. the MW media contract expires in 2 years. There is already talk about it. Way better for all involved if it is the new Pac-12/14 negotiating than an uncertain MW.

The contract can be written to provide for new entrants. That's what has occurred with contracts for other conferences. The current deal can be extended. A new contract could be voided or renegotiated upon entry of new members. All kinds of possibilities.


2. The current Pac bowl contracts expire in 2 years. Best to have the new Pac 12/14 in place well in advance of that if we want to try to salvage any of them. Not sure about the MW Bowl agreements (I'll find out), but could be similar if they want to dump the crappiest ones in favor of ours.

There is no shortage of bowls. I don't know why, I guess some cities enjoy losing money, ESPN needs programming in mid-December, or whatever. We're not keeping the Rose Bowl, or Alamo or Vegas no matter what happens. So we're talking about retaining 3rd tier bowls like the Holiday and the Sun.

3. In our current affiliation agreements, we can't win the league in FB, and are paying through the nose for the privilege of playing the MW. With no media rights except whatever pittance we can get from the CW (for which the FY25 budget is $-0-). I guess we are eligible to win league in the wcc in BB, but we don't get to share in any NCAA money generated by the league - even if our teams generate it. And we are paying to play, although much less than in FB.

So what? Sunk cost. Joining the MWC now to commence after the 2025 season doesn't change any of that.

4. I would not at all bank on the MW waiting around on us for 2 years. This realignment that you speak of could quite easily stretch over to SDSU and/or UNLV. Or the MW could just say F-you we are just fine as we are if we jack them around for too long.

Again, wrong. There have been several rounds of realignment. If another conference wanted a current MWC that school would already be gone. Like Utah.


5. Our cash windfall(s) are already being spent, and it would be stupid to waste one dime of it on luring TBD teams into a new Pac. Which we need to maintain to get our NCAA money (I think $30 million in years 3-6). Not chump change for 2 teams to split.

Wonderful bean counting. And a completely false dichotomy. A merger or other arrangement with the MWC or reconstituting the Pac are not the only options.

6. I have yet to hear of any other realignment scenarios that are realistic and/or that don't just suck generally. A Western ACC pod including a handful of MW teams that we pay to have join? What f-ing ever. The Big-12? That ship has sailed and ain't coming back.

Pay attention. The ACC is on the verge of collapse. The Big XII is already in survival mode. Chaos is opportunity. And again- the MWC isn't going anywhere.

I'm sure there are more reasons. Oh yeah - #7. The sooner we reverse merge, the sooner we can close the existing Pac-12 offices and turn the MW's into the Pac-12/14. How many millions is that costing us currently?

Again, lovely bean counting. Throwing in the towel while there are genuine possibilities to remain in/join a power conference don't justify that. And why do the existing Pac-12 offices need to be completely closed, rather than just scaled down? The wind up of the Pac-12 networks has to be done by someone not named Kirk Schulz or Interim AD Anne McCoy. But I guess you and Gloria could ride off into the sunset in Mazda Miata.

I took less than ten minutes to write this.

Well look at this. That's more like it, and some good counterpoints. I'll keep my counter-counters brief.
1. Media rights - I'd argue that having the two best draws in the mix from the getgo would be better
2. The Holiday pays 6.5M. Sun, 4.5 mil. Vegas, 2.9M. Hardly 3rd tier. If any are 3rd tier it's Vegas but we need that one.
3. Year 2 of those agreements (if cancelled) are not sunk costs yet, although the WCC exit penalty is stiff
4. See the semi-recent link that identifies SDSU as a potential add for the ACC. WSU? Not
5. Your counterpoint makes no sense
6 & 7. The ACC is not on the verge of collapse. The Big-12 just poached 4 of our schools. Not sure how translates into survival mode. That said, I keep asking this board (not just you and I don't need to hear Mik's opinion a fiftieth time) to present these other options (with revenue/costs) for consideration. Have yet to see one.

Good reply(s) though. I suppppppose I might give you another chance.

 

[dgibbons]

Well look at this. That's more like it, and some good counterpoints. I'll keep my counter-counters brief.
1. Media rights - I'd argue that having the two best draws in the mix from the getgo would be better
2. The Holiday pays 6.5M. Sun, 4.5 mil. Vegas, 2.9M. Hardly 3rd tier. If any are 3rd tier it's Vegas but we need that one.
3. Year 2 of those agreements (if cancelled) are not sunk costs yet, although the WCC exit penalty is stiff
4. See the semi-recent link that identifies SDSU as a potential add for the ACC. WSU? Not
5. Your counterpoint makes no sense
6 & 7. The ACC is not on the verge of collapse. The Big-12 just poached 4 of our schools. Not sure how translates into survival mode. That said, I keep asking this board (not just you and I don't need to hear Mik's opinion a fiftieth time) to present these other options (with revenue/costs) for consideration. Have yet to see one.

Good reply(s) though. I suppppppose I might give you another chance.

You seem to be worried more about the MWC than WSU, and what exactly in this post relates to urgency?

The Holiday Bowl had the fourth selection, and the Sun Bowl the fifth selection. Those are third tier bowls. The conferences receive the distribution not the participating schools.

For #5, you are attempting to present a false dichotomy. Look it up if you don't know what that means.

The Big XII poached FORMER PAC-12 SCHOOLS, NOT MWC SCHOOLS (if all caps, bold and italics don't emphasize this enough, pretend Gloria asked you nicely to read that three times and think about it for five minutes). If the current MWC schools brought enough to the table to be poached, they would no longer be MWC schools. They would have been poached already.

 

[CougSinceBirth]

The Vegas Bowl payout is low right now, but it's a free agent and assuming it picks up another B1G/SEC-type matchup, that bowl game will be a big one and the payout will go way up.

 

[95coug]

Possible I'm reading too much into this, but on the WSU Presidential search FAQ page, there's a question asking what Schulz will be focused on during his last year. There are 4 items. The 4th one is:

Stabilizing Athletics: Ensuring WSU student-athletes play competitively on the West Coast securing our place in an ever-changing athletic environment. (my emphasis)

The literal read of this - and again, maybe I shouldn't take it so literally - is that we wouldn't be interested in an ACC option, and probably not even a Big 12 one. Unless someone puts together enough western teams to form a west coast division (which would look pretty similar to the Pac-10/12), I think this suggests we're looking MWC.

Well, this, and basically every bit of sensible analysis of anything that appears remotely likely.

 

[ttowncoug]

The Beavs and Cougs will hold tight for a few months, maybe all the way through the end of the year. Then we will start hearing rumors of "Pac-12 expansion" when the Beavs/Cougs have a better sense of the ACC situation (which is frankly the other realistic option in the near term).

If we do expand, I don't see a scenario where any of the current Big-12 schools crawl back to the new look Pac-12...like ever.

The only scenario in the future would be the Big-12 adding WSU or OSU (unlikely) or the ACC west idea taking shape at a later date.

The biggest homerun at this point is the ACC-west. Doesn't' mean it will happen, but that is the best play. WSU/OSU are the two best properties out there and if the ACC loses members, we are in a good position to get scooped up.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

You seem to be worried more about the MWC than WSU, and what exactly in this post relates to urgency?

The Holiday Bowl had the fourth selection, and the Sun Bowl the fifth selection. Those are third tier bowls. The conferences receive the distribution not the participating schools.

For #5, you are attempting to present a false dichotomy. Look it up if you don't know what that means.

The Big XII poached FORMER PAC-12 SCHOOLS, NOT MWC SCHOOLS (if all caps, bold and italics don't emphasize this enough, pretend Gloria asked you nicely to read that three times and think about it for five minutes). If the current MWC schools brought enough to the table to be poached, they would no longer be MWC schools. They would have been poached already.

I did have to look false dichotomy up. A bit of a blow to my all-knowing stature. I'll give you that one grudgingly. In 2023, 30 bowls had smaller (most of them much smaller) payouts than the Holiday Bowl. But no matter. It is a bowl that would be nice to keep in the Pac (not much chance but not zero IMHO).