Biggs are you out there ? O Line Questions

[GoldenCoug]

Just curious on what you think of our returning O Line since all the starters return.

Will they be an above average Pac 12 O Line or below?
Do you think they will be a bit bigger and stronger this season? Maybe average 315 to 320??

Finally what do you think of the depth/competition that has been developed for this upcoming season?

I know you love those big guys up front and have an opinion so I would be interested in your thoughts.

 

[95coug]

We have bodies, but I don't know if we can really call it depth. There aren't a lot of snaps outside of the top 6, maybe 7 guys.

By my count, we'll have 21 OL on the roster. 5 of those are this year's signees, so odds are that none of them are factors. If true freshman get to play on the OL, one of two things must be true: either you have a really bad OL, or you have a truly special freshman. I won't assume that we have a special freshman, and I don't think our OL is that bad anymore.

Most of our OL snaps went to Eklund, Dahl, Middleton, and Sorenson. Flor was in the mix some, and I think Seydel was too. Salmonson and Madison got time also, but it was sporadic. The other 8 returnees are basically untested, and I think 4 of them will be RS freshmen, so odds are they're not really battle-ready either.

Sadly, this is actually improvement in our depth.

The problem I see is that, yes, all of our starters return - but they weren't very good. Should they be better and stronger? Yes. Will they? Iffy. It's been close to a decade since we had an OL that could keep a QB upright or open a running lane, and it's been more than a decade since we had an OL that could do both. After watching last season, I don't see any reason to expect that the 2015 line will suddenly be in the top half - or even the top 3/4.

Realistically, I think it's 2016 before we start seeing real improvement on the OL, and that assumes that a couple of the kids who were deep backups or redshirts this year turn into players.

 

[BiggsCoug]

Time doesn't make talent. It may create some savvy. It may eliminate a situation being "too big" for a kid. But just because you have or haven't been on the field doesn't mean your better than another player.

I think the OL takes two steps forward. They bring everyone back so they've worked together. You'd like to think there's some value there in knowing the other player and having reps as a unit. Also, they've got numbers. You'd like to think that the competition in the numbers pushes the pile forward another step.

Will those 2 steps be enough? No idea. I'd like to think that the pass protection gets 1 step forward and the run blocking takes a step forward too. That helps the QB and the offense as a whole.

It takes YEARS to build up a 6'6" or taller frame. Leach wasn't left with much on the OL. It's gonna take 6 years to get the OL where you want it, minimum. And then you have the moving parts around them at the perimeter positions.

It took 8 years to get from Roses to turds. It'll take 8 years to turn it back into Roses. So when I read people's posts about 4 years and the team is all Leach's, it's not entirely true. There are more factors in building a culture and program then just having 1 class turn into seniors.

 

[Coug1990]

Madison was the starter at right tackle and played almost every snap. He became sick near the end of the season and did not play the last two games. If not for his sickness, he would have started every game.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

It's important to have the right perspective when you are evaluating a team. As Biggs said, it is a 6 year to 8 year project to take a team that's been as low as WSU has been and convert the into an annual conference title contender. That said, we may end up with a decent OL before that....for a single season. It took Mike Price 12 years to get WSU to the point where we were starting to produce on an annual basis even though he put together some terrific teams together at times.

I believe in Leach and think that he can do it faster than that, but I don't believe that the group of guys on the OL are the ones that are going to strike fear into the hearts of opponents the way that his lines at Texas Tech did. We are still a couple years away from that. In terms of size, they are at least going to be close. Below is the list of starters for the Apple Cup and their class for 2015:

Dahl, 303, Sr
Eklund, 305, Sr
Sorenson, 321, Jr
Middleton, 318, Jr
Seydel, 295, Sr

Other key OL with time on the depth chart:

McClain, 315, Sr
Flor, 306, Jr
Madison, 300, So

The good news is that we have eight guys with a fair amount of experience that will see playing time. The bad news is that half of them will be gone after this season. It is going to be critical for us to get some of the younger players to step up and generate enough excitement amongst the coaches to break into the depth chart. The fact that Eklund and Seydel are on the depth chart twice speaks volumes about what our coaches thought of the younger guys last year. Getting guys in the chart that are up to the task is the issue that will take 6-8 years like Biggs said. Getting big bodies is the easy part.

 

[GoldenCoug]

Thanks Bigg's and others for comments. Basically we can expect progress this season, but still as one said " will not strike fear in the hearts" of opposing teams. I would like to think that Dahl can get a bit bigger/stronger up maybe from 300 to 310 and with a year of experience starting every game will be a plus. Same for Eklund who plays hard every down, but maybe is not the most talented guy in the line. I think Sorenson is pretty good and has good size at center.


In my view the right side while returning both starters in Middleton and Madison is still pretty open to competition in the Spring. I see Seydel, Freeman, and O Connell pushing for those jobs so if the veterans keep them it will be because they have improved. Our overall pass protection was good if not great last season, but our running game was lets face it poor.
Hopefully that we can improve in our run blocking, and start opening holes for Morrow and Wicks. Just a slightly below average running game would do wonders for an already good offense.

 

[Cougsocal]

Originally posted by 95coug:

We have bodies, but I don't know if we can really call it depth. There aren't a lot of snaps outside of the top 6, maybe 7 guys.

By my count, we'll have 21 OL on the roster. 5 of those are this year's signees, so odds are that none of them are factors. If true freshman get to play on the OL, one of two things must be true: either you have a really bad OL, or you have a truly special freshman. I won't assume that we have a special freshman, and I don't think our OL is that bad anymore.

Most of our OL snaps went to Eklund, Dahl, Middleton, and Sorenson. Flor was in the mix some, and I think Seydel was too. Salmonson and Madison got time also, but it was sporadic. The other 8 returnees are basically untested, and I think 4 of them will be RS freshmen, so odds are they're not really battle-ready either.

Sadly, this is actually improvement in our depth.

The problem I see is that, yes, all of our starters return - but they weren't very good. Should they be better and stronger? Yes. Will they? Iffy. It's been close to a decade since we had an OL that could keep a QB upright or open a running lane, and it's been more than a decade since we had an OL that could do both. After watching last season, I don't see any reason to expect that the 2015 line will suddenly be in the top half - or even the top 3/4.

Realistically, I think it's 2016 before we start seeing real improvement on the OL, and that assumes that a couple of the kids who were deep backups or redshirts this year turn into players.

Well said.

When was the last time the Cougs had a quality OL who wasn't in the rotation as a redshirt freshman? High end kids start as true freshmen these days at football powers.

If the recruits from this year and last can't make the two deep, and/or crack OUR starting line up, they instantly fall into the "hopefully they will be serviceable someday" category. They aren't difference makers. They aren't being kept on the bench by quality of the play and depth ahead of them.

 

[froropmkr72]

I'll go out on a limb and predict really good things for 10 Olinemen throughout the season. I think close observers are going to be pleasantly surprised by how "interchangeable" this group of 10 will be. This should be the year Leach demands a second team player in and he may perform as well as the first team player

 

[Coug1990]

Originally posted by Cougsocal:

Originally posted by 95coug:

We have bodies, but I don't know if we can really call it depth. There aren't a lot of snaps outside of the top 6, maybe 7 guys.

By my count, we'll have 21 OL on the roster. 5 of those are this year's signees, so odds are that none of them are factors. If true freshman get to play on the OL, one of two things must be true: either you have a really bad OL, or you have a truly special freshman. I won't assume that we have a special freshman, and I don't think our OL is that bad anymore.

Most of our OL snaps went to Eklund, Dahl, Middleton, and Sorenson. Flor was in the mix some, and I think Seydel was too. Salmonson and Madison got time also, but it was sporadic. The other 8 returnees are basically untested, and I think 4 of them will be RS freshmen, so odds are they're not really battle-ready either.

Sadly, this is actually improvement in our depth.

The problem I see is that, yes, all of our starters return - but they weren't very good. Should they be better and stronger? Yes. Will they? Iffy. It's been close to a decade since we had an OL that could keep a QB upright or open a running lane, and it's been more than a decade since we had an OL that could do both. After watching last season, I don't see any reason to expect that the 2015 line will suddenly be in the top half - or even the top 3/4.

Realistically, I think it's 2016 before we start seeing real improvement on the OL, and that assumes that a couple of the kids who were deep backups or redshirts this year turn into players.

Well said.

When was the last time the Cougs had a quality OL who wasn't in the rotation as a redshirt freshman? High end kids start as true freshmen these days at football powers.

If the recruits from this year and last can't make the two deep, and/or crack OUR starting line up, they instantly fall into the "hopefully they will be serviceable someday" category. They aren't difference makers. They aren't being kept on the bench by quality of the play and depth ahead of them.

Coach McGuire has sad many times that he wants to be able to redshirt all of his lineman. He thinks it takes longer for the lineman to mature and gain the right type of weight. Madison was the starter at right tackle as a redshirt freshman for every game he was healthy, which was every game except the last two (or was it three).

Yes, there are a few true freshman lineman that start right away, but it is not as common as you think. WSU is unlikely to ever get those players anyway. While it would be nice to be able to sign those players, WSU can be successful growing their own.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

This has been a good discussion string. On one of my favorite subjects, too.

Biggs and others are right about the time required to physically and culturally build a team, and an O line unit.

But I think that instead of the 2 steps that Biggs is hoping to get, we'll actually get more like 3 steps. That assumes that we avoid devastating injuries...but if the existing top 8-10 kids remain mostly intact, the major benefits from my perspective are:

1.) Minimal mental mistakes. This is the single biggest deal for next season. All 5 starters are back. We should see very, very few blown assignments. The D will on very rare occasions fake out the O line so that an assignment is not recognized. And there will be occasional communications busts, particularly if a kid simply cannot hear an audible. But for the most part, the assignments will be recognized and it will simply be a case of whether the kid on our O line can do what he needs to do. I expect this to be the cleanest O line season from a mistake perspective since the early Doba years.

2.) Everybody is one year bigger. Only incremental improvement, but improvement none the less.

3.) New QB; more likely to check to a run; and probably a better overall group of RB's now that we aren't playing two freshmen. Both should be better able to take on a tackler, and that is not considering that some of the other RB candidates might emerge. All of that is important to both the O line and the offense as a whole. A more credible run threat makes it a little harder for the D to do its job. And let's also note that there were plenty of blown assignments (especially pass blocking assignments) by those same two freshmen last year...and that should also diminish with a year of experience. All of which simplifies the life of the O line.

4.) The new QB, whether Falk, Bender or someone else, almost has to be more mobile than Connor. As long as he doesn't get happy feet too often, that is also a help to the O line.

 

[BiggsCoug]

Originally posted by cr8zyncalif:

This has been a good discussion string. On one of my favorite subjects, too.

Biggs and others are right about the time required to physically and culturally build a team, and an O line unit.

But I think that instead of the 2 steps that Biggs is hoping to get, we'll actually get more like 3 steps. That assumes that we avoid devastating injuries...but if the existing top 8-10 kids remain mostly intact, the major benefits from my perspective are:

1.) Minimal mental mistakes. This is the single biggest deal for next season. All 5 starters are back. We should see very, very few blown assignments. The D will on very rare occasions fake out the O line so that an assignment is not recognized. And there will be occasional communications busts, particularly if a kid simply cannot hear an audible. But for the most part, the assignments will be recognized and it will simply be a case of whether the kid on our O line can do what he needs to do. I expect this to be the cleanest O line season from a mistake perspective since the early Doba years.

2.) Everybody is one year bigger. Only incremental improvement, but improvement none the less.

3.) New QB; more likely to check to a run; and probably a better overall group of RB's now that we aren't playing two freshmen. Both should be better able to take on a tackler, and that is not considering that some of the other RB candidates might emerge. All of that is important to both the O line and the offense as a whole. A more credible run threat makes it a little harder for the D to do its job. And let's also note that there were plenty of blown assignments (especially pass blocking assignments) by those same two freshmen last year...and that should also diminish with a year of experience. All of which simplifies the life of the O line.

4.) The new QB, whether Falk, Bender or someone else, almost has to be more mobile than Connor. As long as he doesn't get happy feet too often, that is also a help to the O line.

A mobile QB could do wonders for this offense. It would force the defense to leave at least one more player up front. Adding numbers to the front means subtracting numbers from the back. Less defenders for the WR's and the QB.

 

[ElComanche]

The offense will be much better because of the QB's leadership and mobility. The O linemen try just a little harder if they respect the QB and believe in the guy. I see a better offense and a defense which will not be put in bad situations because of turnovers and three and out for the first two quarters of the game.That will be a morale booster for the whole team.

 

[Cougsocal]

Originally posted by Coug1990:

Originally posted by Cougsocal:

Originally posted by 95coug:

We have bodies, but I don't know if we can really call it depth. There aren't a lot of snaps outside of the top 6, maybe 7 guys.

By my count, we'll have 21 OL on the roster. 5 of those are this year's signees, so odds are that none of them are factors. If true freshman get to play on the OL, one of two things must be true: either you have a really bad OL, or you have a truly special freshman. I won't assume that we have a special freshman, and I don't think our OL is that bad anymore.

Most of our OL snaps went to Eklund, Dahl, Middleton, and Sorenson. Flor was in the mix some, and I think Seydel was too. Salmonson and Madison got time also, but it was sporadic. The other 8 returnees are basically untested, and I think 4 of them will be RS freshmen, so odds are they're not really battle-ready either.

Sadly, this is actually improvement in our depth.

The problem I see is that, yes, all of our starters return - but they weren't very good. Should they be better and stronger? Yes. Will they? Iffy. It's been close to a decade since we had an OL that could keep a QB upright or open a running lane, and it's been more than a decade since we had an OL that could do both. After watching last season, I don't see any reason to expect that the 2015 line will suddenly be in the top half - or even the top 3/4.

Realistically, I think it's 2016 before we start seeing real improvement on the OL, and that assumes that a couple of the kids who were deep backups or redshirts this year turn into players.

Well said.

When was the last time the Cougs had a quality OL who wasn't in the rotation as a redshirt freshman? High end kids start as true freshmen these days at football powers.

If the recruits from this year and last can't make the two deep, and/or crack OUR starting line up, they instantly fall into the "hopefully they will be serviceable someday" category. They aren't difference makers. They aren't being kept on the bench by quality of the play and depth ahead of them.

Coach McGuire has sad many times that he wants to be able to redshirt all of his lineman. He thinks it takes longer for the lineman to mature and gain the right type of weight. Madison was the starter at right tackle as a redshirt freshman for every game he was healthy, which was every game except the last two (or was it three).

Yes, there are a few true freshman lineman that start right away, but it is not as common as you think. WSU is unlikely to ever get those players anyway. While it would be nice to be able to sign those players, WSU can be successful growing their own.

I agree with you 100%, but WSU isn't Wisconsin. If we had a number of quality OLs in the pipeline, we'd be a fool not to allow them to grow and mature. However, right now, our starting OL can't run block, and their pass blocking is a big question mark because of Halliday quick reads and release last year. They did give up 16 sack the last three games (64 sacks per season average), despite the air raid scheme and the wide splits because Falk was slower reading and releasing. My point is this. The bar to secure a starting spot on our OL is as low as any Pac-12 team. If you are freshman OL, redshirt freshman or redshirt sophomore and you aren't in the coaches' starter conversation, you probably aren't part of the OL basic talent upgrade that we need. You are in the, "hopefully he will be serviceable some day" category. Ideally, we will have 4-5 kids coming in that the coaches believe could play right away, if we pulled their redshirts.

Biggs' grow the OL theory assumes kids have the talent/skills necessary to be effective, and you make them better. Over the last 10 years, these kids have been few and far between. A freshman stiff, becomes a redshirt senior stiff, not an all-conference player. You have to recruit a level of talent first, before you can grow the kids behind them. What evidence do we have that we have 5-6 effective Pac-12 OLs on campus?

 

[BiggsCoug]

"Biggs' grow the OL theory assumes kids have the talent/skills necessary to be effective, and you make them better. Over the last 10 years, these kids have been few and far between. A freshman stiff, becomes a redshirt senior stiff, not an all-conference player. You have to recruit a level of talent first, before you can grow the kids behind them. What evidence do we have that we have 5-6 effective Pac-12 OLs on campus?"

You recruit kids that grow into the position because the 4 and 5 star OL have yet to come to WSU in any kind of numbers over the last 100 years. You do it because you have to.

Those kids have been far and few between the last 10 years because only now have you ever seen a WSU football coach CHOOSE to put numbers into the OL. Not 1 or 2 or 3, but 4 or 5 per year.

You put numbers into the position to create competition. The WSU has literally had kids playing because there was no one else to play.

Turnover is college football. So no, there probably isn't going to be much evidence that kids can play until their name is called and they're on the field. The same as every other school in the nation.

Your tone in your post is that WSU should just give up. Is that what you're trying to convey?

 

[Cougsocal]

My tone isn't "giving up." It is just honest. It is, we are so low on talent right now on the OL, we don't have the luxury of letting kids "with talent" grow and develop for a couple years. If he is strong, with feet and balance, he is a sure 4 year starter. With the emphasis on the OL now, hopefully in the future we will be able become a OL reloading machine. But right now we are still trying to load the gun.

I've been following Cougar football for 35 years> Even at the best of times for the OL, i.e. the Walden era, kids like Mike Utley just didn't stay on the bench until they were redshirt juniors, they played early and often. So I not holding my breath, that we will become Wisconsin/Nebraska revisted any time soon, though it would be nice.

 

[Coug1990]

Originally posted by Cougsocal:
My tone isn't "giving up." It is just honest. It is, we are so low on talent right now on the OL, we don't have the luxury of letting kids "with talent" grow and develop for a couple years. If he is strong, with feet and balance, he is a sure 4 year starter. With the emphasis on the OL now, hopefully in the future we will be able become a OL reloading machine. But right now we are still trying to load the gun.

I've been following Cougar football for 35 years> Even at the best of times for the OL, i.e. the Walden era, kids like Mike Utley just didn't stay on the bench until they were redshirt juniors, they played early and often. So I not holding my breath, that we will become Wisconsin/Nebraska revisted any time soon, though it would be nice.

There were was a redshirt freshman, a true sophmore and a redshirt sophmore that started last year. I am not sure what you are wanting. There are young players playing. It is not as if Walden or Price won with underclassmen. They grew into winning as upperclassmen. There is likely more good lineman at WSU than at any time. It may not be the heights of the Utley, Dyko lines, but depthwise, 1-15 yes the depth is better.

 

[Cougsocal]

I want the Cougs to have a great OL, just like everyone else. But that isn't the point. Getting back to what 95coug said, we have more bodies than we have had in a long time. But do we have quality and/or depth? My point is you can't build depth until you have a quality OL to begin with, and we haven't reached that point. We don't have the luxury of sitting a quality kid until he is a redshirt junior, because the kids ahead of him haven't proven to be very good. Therefore, we can judge the quality of our OL recruits very early on in their careers. If a kid is buried on our depth chart until he is a redshirt junior, it is safe to assume he is a stop gap player.

Example: Cody O'Connell - he needs to show something this year to be consider something other than a practice body.

Do you agree with this premise? If not, why not.

 

[kayak15]

You people undoubtedly know more about this than I do but thought I would add my two cents. I find OL prospects particularly interesting as do others.

As far as Socal's concerns go, it seems to me glass half full versus half empty. His anxiety is perfectly understandable in light of our recent history. Our front five is fairly well set but who knows how the backups will do until they actually hit the field? Wait and see like all the other positions. At least we have some backups (depth) now not like poor CML's first season.

As far as myself, I like the look we have now. Dahl is doing a good job at LT and Madison was a pleasant surprise at RT. The interior is more in flux but not bad. Nobody is pushing for all-conference there but no one is demonstrably failing on a consistent basis. (RT seemed to be a problem after Madison took ill so this is something to watch.) The current situation strikes me as adequate if not world beating. Gave up a lot of sacks last year but remembering the number of times we were in passing mode it was not too bad. Not bad at all especially since the defense has a good idea of what we are going to do.

The running game is another matter as everyone knows and the interior guys have to start opening some holes. As I mentioned on a previous post, I wish Leach would include some big kid as a back on appropriate occasions. Especially in red zone situations.

It has been mentioned that it takes time to develop size and knowledge on the OL. I agree with the obvious. I think it also takes time for OL players to get used to one another. Understanding the strengths and weaknesses of the guys next to one gives confidence. The OL is unlike any other position in football in the extent that they have to work together and closely as a component of the team. The other positions have to work together as part of the overall team but, it seems to me, not to the extent that the OL does. This takes time and (I hope) we are getting there.

As far as the previously mentioned concerns that Wazzu will never be able to attract top notch linemen, I am not so sure. Leach has made a point of stating that he has put a number of OL into the NFL. While it is probably true that we may never be able to have a recruiting class including numerous four or five star high school OLs I wouldn't be too surprised to find a few or more attracted to the program if the improvement on the field continues. I do not see us with a Wisconsin or Stanford type of crop in the future but would expect that the days of "diamonds in the rough" are now behind us.

Bottom line: The current front five is adequate and we are building depth. Whether the "depth" guys work out remains to be seen. Some will, some will not. At least they are there unlike years past.

 

[BiggsCoug]

I would love to see a battering ram type back in this offense. No run blocking? No problem. Smack. 3 yards.

5'11" 235 should do the trick. Or, why not 5'11" 265???

 

[kayak15]

Absolutely! I mentioned this in a post a month or so ago. Put a DL or LB back there or maybe a walk-on. I'm thinking of a "tweener". A big strong kid with sufficient speed. Not big enough for a D1 scholarship as a lineman or quick enough for a linebacker slot but big enough, strong enough and with sufficient speed to get the job done as an occasional RB. Surely we can find some big farm boy to perform the task. Or just put one of the DL's in. Imagine you were on the defense and you see Barber, Tapa or Vaeao in a fullback slot. This would give an "Oh, crap!" moment for sure to the defensive line and Mike. The kid wouldn't even have to touch the ball, just line up and some of the shorter passing lanes would open up. Right now it's goal to go from within the five and they know Leach will still be passing. You and I can't be the only ones thinking this.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

What you guys are asking for as your power back is a return of Jed Collins. A TE/FB hybrid. In the Air Raid, he could be the occasional inside receiver. He could also start as a back and go in motion to the inside receiver slot. There, he is a legit receiver threat as long as he has hands, but he is also a blocking threat. The D would almost have to start a LB on him at the RB spot and move him as he goes in motion. That should create an opportunity to run up the middle with the other back. Or vice versa; the smaller back could go in motion to the inside receiver spot and leave the FB kid as the remaining RB.

Regardless of how you slice it, it is another headache for the D coordinator.

 

[Coug1990]

Originally posted by Cougsocal:
I want the Cougs to have a great OL, just like everyone else. But that isn't the point. Getting back to what 95coug said, we have more bodies than we have had in a long time. But do we have quality and/or depth? My point is you can't build depth until you have a quality OL to begin with, and we haven't reached that point. We don't have the luxury of sitting a quality kid until he is a redshirt junior, because the kids ahead of him haven't proven to be very good. Therefore, we can judge the quality of our OL recruits very early on in their careers. If a kid is buried on our depth chart until he is a redshirt junior, it is safe to assume he is a stop gap player.

Example: Cody O'Connell - he needs to show something this year to be consider something other than a practice body.

Do you agree with this premise? If not, why not.

I don't. You do not start with an offensive line as good as Ohio State's or Alabama's. You have to start somewhere. In reading what you have written, it seems to me you are being contradictory. You say that WSU doesn't have the luxury of sitting a quality kid until he is a redshirt junior. When have they done that under Leach? McGuire has always started who he thought were the best players. In fact, last season he started a true sophomore, a RS sophomore and a RS Freshman. They beat out two upperclassman JC players in Seydel and McClain. That is not waiting until a players is an upperclassman.

Now, I am not saying the line is ultimately playing at a level where Leach and McGuire want it to be playing. But, it is playing better than any line that we have seen in a while and yardage wise, WSU was very very good. That is with two walk-on starters and three new starters last season. Now, with five returning starters, you have a base to build and improve. Then, the players behind them are allowed to grow at a normal pace.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

I'm with 1990 on this one. The best players have started. And with 5 returners, a new guy is going to have to be a clear improvement to beat one of them out. If somebody does that, then we can all celebrate. If not, the rest are going to get another year to develop in the normal manner, and if somebody gets dinged, the one doing the best who also fits the specific position will get a shot. That is a foundation for the future that puts us in a position to have a solid position group every year to come. The football factory schools typically have a complete 2 deep and sometimes more of kids who at least look the part and could be expected to not embarrass themselves if they were suddenly called upon to replace a starter. Last year was the first time in a long time that we had 5 legit starters and a couple more who could fill the gap without risking disaster. The fact that three of them were quite young by O line standards says that they were clearly the better athletes, and with another year they should make some incremental improvement.

If we were in as good of position at LB and DB as we are at O line and WR, I'd be looking forward to a shot at a mid level bowl. As it is, I think a minor bowl is a realistic possibility. And a lot of that is due to O line development. A solid O line will carry your offense most of the way to a good season.

 

[Cougsocal]

Originally posted by kayak15:

You people undoubtedly know more about this than I do but thought I would add my two cents. I find OL prospects particularly interesting as do others.

As far as Socal's concerns go, it seems to me glass half full versus half empty. His anxiety is perfectly understandable in light of our recent history. Our front five is fairly well set but who knows how the backups will do until they actually hit the field? Wait and see like all the other positions. At least we have some backups (depth) now not like poor CML's first season.

As far as myself, I like the look we have now. Dahl is doing a good job at LT and Madison was a pleasant surprise at RT. The interior is more in flux but not bad. Nobody is pushing for all-conference there but no one is demonstrably failing on a consistent basis. (RT seemed to be a problem after Madison took ill so this is something to watch.) The current situation strikes me as adequate if not world beating. Gave up a lot of sacks last year but remembering the number of times we were in passing mode it was not too bad. Not bad at all especially since the defense has a good idea of what we are going to do.

The running game is another matter as everyone knows and the interior guys have to start opening some holes. As I mentioned on a previous post, I wish Leach would include some big kid as a back on appropriate occasions. Especially in red zone situations.

It has been mentioned that it takes time to develop size and knowledge on the OL. I agree with the obvious. I think it also takes time for OL players to get used to one another. Understanding the strengths and weaknesses of the guys next to one gives confidence. The OL is unlike any other position in football in the extent that they have to work together and closely as a component of the team. The other positions have to work together as part of the overall team but, it seems to me, not to the extent that the OL does. This takes time and (I hope) we are getting there.

As far as the previously mentioned concerns that Wazzu will never be able to attract top notch linemen, I am not so sure. Leach has made a point of stating that he has put a number of OL into the NFL. While it is probably true that we may never be able to have a recruiting class including numerous four or five star high school OLs I wouldn't be too surprised to find a few or more attracted to the program if the improvement on the field continues. I do not see us with a Wisconsin or Stanford type of crop in the future but would expect that the days of "diamonds in the rough" are now behind us.

Bottom line: The current front five is adequate and we are building depth. Whether the "depth" guys work out remains to be seen. Some will, some will not. At least they are there unlike years past.

Considering that we threw the ball 771 times, 36 sacks is damn good. The problem is that nearly half those sacks came in the last three games, with Falk at the helm. That makes one wonder if the low sack total was more a product of Halliday's quick reads and release,than pass protection. We will find out this year. If this OL can keep Falk upright and healthy, they will have proved themselves, because Falk doesn't have Halliday's release, and it is unlikely he will read coverage as quick with only 3 starts under his belt. If it is another year of "chuck and duck," you have to start wondering whether Leach can get it done. On the other hand, if the OL can hold their own, it could be a seminal moment in the Leach era, though I doubt it will show in the win column in 2015.

 

[Coug1990]

Originally posted by Cougsocal:

Considering that we threw the ball 771 times, 36 sacks is damn good. The problem is that nearly half those sacks came in the last three games, with Falk at the helm. That makes one wonder if the low sack total was more a product of Halliday's quick reads and release,than pass protection. We will find out this year. If this OL can keep Falk upright and healthy, they will have proved themselves, because Falk doesn't have Halliday's release, and it is unlikely he will read coverage as quick with only 3 starts under his belt. If it is another year of "chuck and duck," you have to start wondering whether Leach can get it done. On the other hand, if the OL can hold their own, it could be a seminal moment in the Leach era, though I doubt it will show in the win column in 2015.

Ironically, after the OSU game, I argued with several people about Falk's decision making and release. They were somewhat anointing him another Aaron Rogers and I wrote not so fast. WSU would miss Halliday the last few games. Also, don't forget that both Madison and Sorenson both missed the last few games with illness and injuries respectively.

With the players able to go through spring practice and a summer, I do believe that we will see the good offensive line and not the bad. I do believe we will see either Falk or Bender know what they are doing. It is a process.

This post was edited on 3/23 6:54 PM by Coug1990

 

[95coug]

Originally posted by Cougsocal:

Considering that we threw the ball 771 times, 36 sacks is damn good. The problem is that nearly half those sacks came in the last three games, with Falk at the helm. That makes one wonder if the low sack total was more a product of Halliday's quick reads and release,than pass protection. We will find out this year. If this OL can keep Falk upright and healthy, they will have proved themselves, because Falk doesn't have Halliday's release, and it is unlikely he will read coverage as quick with only 3 starts under his belt. If it is another year of "chuck and duck," you have to start wondering whether Leach can get it done. On the other hand, if the OL can hold their own, it could be a seminal moment in the Leach era, though I doubt it will show in the win column in 2015.

Even if the OL was a finished product, and could keep the QB's jersey clean all season, it might not show up in the win column. Until the defense can figure out how to do something - anything - to slow down any offense tougher than Portland State's, it won't matter much what the offense can do.

As for the OL, with the kids we've typically fielded, we have to grow them. Redshirt the freshmen, and start working them into the lineup in their second year in the program. If we're signing 4-5 each year, there should rarely be a need to put an RS frosh on the field, except in mop-up duty. The better players will turn into sophomore backups, then junior and senior starters. The fact that we've had RS freshman and sophomore starters in the past has more frequently due to lack of quality depth, not because we had a great young player. It's hard to understand coaches who try to recruit lower numbers on the OL - it's the only position on the field that you have to have 5 on the field for every snap, so recruiting numbers should really reflect that. Pulling less than 4 per year isn't sustainable.

 

[BiggsCoug]

Im thinking more like Ironhead Heyward. Not a guy that's going to motion anywhere. He lines up and slams into the line of scrimmage or he swings out for a pass. No hybrid at all.

Originally posted by cr8zyncalif:

What you guys are asking for as your power back is a return of Jed Collins. A TE/FB hybrid. In the Air Raid, he could be the occasional inside receiver. He could also start as a back and go in motion to the inside receiver slot. There, he is a legit receiver threat as long as he has hands, but he is also a blocking threat. The D would almost have to start a LB on him at the RB spot and move him as he goes in motion. That should create an opportunity to run up the middle with the other back. Or vice versa; the smaller back could go in motion to the inside receiver spot and leave the FB kid as the remaining RB.

Regardless of how you slice it, it is another headache for the D coordinator.

 

[GoldenCoug]

Im thinking more like Ironhead Heyward. Not a guy that's going to motion
anywhere. He lines up and slams into the line of scrimmage or he swings
out for a pass. No hybrid at all.

Nick Begg, former TE 6'5 260

 

[kayak15]

The same name, Begg, occurred to me after rereading the thread. Would fit the FB/TE thought.

My own thoughts were more in line with those of Biggs. Frankly, I don't care whether the player could catch a cold. Just use him as a battering ram or at least a threat. Maybe send him in motion as a "dummy" receiver to move one of the LBs. Actually being able to catch an underhand lob would be icing on the cake. As cr8zy mentioned it would give the defensive coordinator and his minions a headache/something to think about.

Leach likes to point out that his offensive scheme is fairly simple. Just beat the other guys with precision. But, surely, a bit of uncertainty in the opposition can't hurt.

Putting this into the offensive scheme close to the end zone might well do wonders for our results. Our yardage last year was excellent. Scoring, however, only average. Installation of this would not require any great overhaul. I could see this "big guy in the backfield" only used a few times a game. No inordinate amount of coaching of proper technique required. Secure the ball tightly and ram the line/hole. Do the same without the ball as a fake. Stay back and protect the passer. On rare occasions, go in motion. Four fairly simple options which shouldn't take any time to understand. I would wager that any defensive player would be delighted with the chance to do something different. I think they would get a kick out of it and so would those of us in the stands.

What were we, 7th in yardage nationally and 48th in points resulting from same? Something like that. This idea (and a decent kicking game) might well eliminate most of the discrepancy between the two mentioned stats. It is worth a try and I hope the staff is willing to give it a shot. Sure can't hurt much. Rolling up the yardage with nothing to show for it sucks.
This post was edited on 3/25 10:38 AM by kayak15

 

[CougPatrol]

Originally posted by BiggsCoug:
I would love to see a battering ram type back in this offense. No run blocking? No problem. Smack. 3 yards.

5'11" 235 should do the trick. Or, why not 5'11" 265???

I've never understood why we don't have someone like that on our roster every season. With all of the fliers we take on recruits, you'd think we could consistently find a local, NW kid who would serve as a battering ram running back and headhunter on special teams.

 

[BiggsCoug]

He's too tall. Needs a lower center of gravity.

Originally posted by GoldenCoug:
Im thinking more like Ironhead Heyward. Not a guy that's going to motion
anywhere. He lines up and slams into the line of scrimmage or he swings
out for a pass. No hybrid at all.

Nick Begg, former TE 6'5 260

 

[froropmkr72]

Re: Here's a dude with alow center of gravity

too bad he didn't have all the classes to make it into Div I coming out of high school, but he's being offered by WSU at linebacker this year. AJ looked like the prototypical Nebarska fullback ass-kicker.

AJ