Cougs lose

[ElComanche]

Loyola of Chicago 88-79.The ramblers move to 4-1 with the victory. Cougs outscored 21-9 from 3 pt land. They also committed 19 TO 's to LC 13. that was pretty much the ball game. Flynn had 10 pts,4 asts and 4 TO's. Pollard played 33 mins and had 5 pts and 4 rbs.

 

[ElComanche]

In reading the recap.the cougs fell behind early thanks to 11 TO.'s. in the first half They closed to within 5 81-76 with 42 seconds to go.The Ramblers are now 5-1 and are a decent -good team. One can hope that the cougs can solve the TO's and start faster. I would think that Flynn is still adjusting and will get better as the season progresses.

 

[avabob1]

Other stats ( rebounds shooting percentage ) were close. Added turnovers gave them more shots and they were pretty efficient capitalizing. Also we werent able to get Hawk involved in the offense until pretty late. I think he scored 12 of his 16 during the last 10 minutes.

 

[SaveFerris]

Other stats ( rebounds shooting percentage ) were close. Added turnovers gave them more shots and they were pretty efficient capitalizing. Also we werent able to get Hawk involved in the offense until pretty late. I think he scored 12 of his 16 during the last 10 minutes.

We are going to see a lot of Pollard the rest of OOC paired with Hawkinson. As you said in another post you have to feel a bit sorry for Clifford. It's difficult to keep him out their because he has a tough time defending and rebounding. I also don't know how you can expect to get back in games if you totally abandon offensive boards? We are a seriously flawed bunch.

 

[ElComanche]

If EK uses the parts right according to the competition,he will win some games. Pollard, King and Flynn will improve and Clifford will have his moments.

 

[SaveFerris]

If EK uses the parts right according to the competition,he will win some games. Pollard, King and Flynn will improve and Clifford will have his moments.

Appreciate you optimism ElC but as the competition continues to improve we simply don't have the talent or pieces to remain competitive. It's going to be a tough year. King's lack of production lately is really sticking out to me as well.

Instead of going small with this roster I might tinker with going big with Clifford, Hawkinson, and Franks along the front line and slow the game down with Flynn and Ike/Callison in the backcourt. A bad look from a recruiting standpoint but might keep games a bit closer.

 

[avabob1]

Ernie tried the slow down last year and it was a disaster. When you dont have enough guys who can knock down shots it doesnt make much difference if you miss in transition or miss taking a forced shot late in the clock. 60 - 45 doesnt sound as bad as 100-70 but it is just as ugly. King Daniels and Franks will either start to knock down shots or they wont. Flynn is going to be a good one

 

[avabob1]

One other thing. I constantly read posts about not being able to recruit the kind of talent to play Ernies up tempo style. Heres the truth. You dont win at this level with a roster full of blue collar over achievers.

Tony Bennett didnt win at pullman that way. He won with guys like Harmeling Low and Rochestie who could shoot the ball. Even Weaver and Cowgill were scorers who used their length and quickness to become lock down defenders.

Bottom line you win by getting scorers and teaching them defense.

 

[SaveFerris]

What they are currently trying to do is almost guaranteed to fail in conference. I am also the guy who said you shouldn't fundamentally change your philosophy so there is that.

It is what it is.

 

[ElComanche]

It looks like your pessimism will not go away. Of course,one hopes that your extreme pessimism is wrong. These players have been good shooters throughout their careers. Lets hope as they adjust to D 1 competition they settle on and start making their shots. Time will tell

 

[avabob1]

Franks and Daniels both had a reputation as good shooters coming in. They both have a nice stroke and a quick enough release for the college game so some optimism is warranted. Same with King.
Hawks career high 29 points the other day got me to thinking that we havent had a player on the roster with any 30 point games for 2 years now.

 

[StormyCOUG42]

This team has 4-14 written all over it. And hey, that's quite an improvement over last year.

 

[avabob1]

Cant argue too much with that prediction. The sad thing is you could fire Kent tommorrow and not have a 50-50 chance to better that record over the next 3 years.

 

[ElComanche]

If that prediction holds true than EK s record would be 14-16 for the year. That is, if the cougs beat the rest of their non conference foes.One better and they end up at .500 ball. That would be an improvement.

 

[avabob1]

Right now I would take 5-2 over the remainder of non conference. Continued improvement from Flynn and some consistent output from King al9ng with Hawk could get us 5 or 6 conference wins

 

[ElComanche]

I said that 6-7 conference wins are possible but the team has to continue to improve and raise their intensity for a full game

 

[SaveFerris]

There could be 4 wins out there. OSU has started poorly. UW has Romar. If Cal doesn't get players back they could struggle.

I'm still doubting King, Daniels, or Franks are more than rotation guys. King has struggled shooting as the competition has improved. Franks looks like he should make more 3s but rims a lot out. Doesn't do much more than 'stretch' as a 4.

I'm not looking at record because honestly we are going to struggle to compete this year. Next year Flynn and Acquaah give us a viable looking backcourt and not so sure but hopefully Hinson a 3 with King and Daniels to the rotation. No idea on the rest but it's a start.

I don't think I'm a pessimist. More of a realist. I can't help if that's depressing.

 

[StormyCOUG42]

My biggest problem with 4-14 this season is that I still think we are behind the rest of the PAC 12 in talent. If we are okay with beating up on cupcakes in our non conference schedule and then winning 6-8 conference games a year then our current recruiting is fine. If we want to truly be competitive we need to start landing a few better recruits. I'm not saying 5 star guys... but guys who are being offered by numerous other big 5 schools. I stand by my statement that none of our starters would start on any other PAC 12 team. It's a debatable statement but not too far fetched.

 

[avabob1]

The only way to recruit enough good players to Pullman to win is to get very lucky finding under the radar talent. That is how Dick Bennett set the table for Tony. Tony was the best coach in the history of WSU. He didnt win by bringing in 4 star talent but he didnt do it with a bunch of blue collar over achievers either.

I dont know whether Franks and Daniels will develop or not but they are exactly the type of kids who we will always have to depend on to be competitive. I think that if at least 2 of those first 4 kids Kent brought in would have developed we would look different now. It would get us off the merry go round of 2 or more jc kids every year which is even more problematic than finding high schoolers with upside.

 

[SaveFerris]

The only way to recruit enough good players to Pullman to win is to get very lucky finding under the radar talent. That is how Dick Bennett set the table for Tony. Tony was the best coach in the history of WSU. He didnt win by bringing in 4 star talent but he didnt do it with a bunch of blue collar over achievers either.

I dont know whether Franks will develop or not but they are exactly the type of kids who we will always have to depend on to be competitive. I think that if at least 2 of those first 4 kids Kent brought in would have developed we would look different now. It would get us off the merry go round of 2 or more jc kids every year which is even more problematic than finding high schoolers with upside.

Compare a Franks to Carlos Daniels (going way back) or even Ivory Clark. You are correct we aren't going to get a bunch of 5 or 4-star talent but there also is a difference in the 2 and 3-star talent that has ended up Pac 12 starters and transferring downs and it's usually something noticeable early on.

Flynn's from day 1 had a much higher ceiling than Daniels, Redding, or Dunbar. I think/hope Acquaah will as well. It's not easy having that eye but you need it at WSU.

 

[ElComanche]

Hmm i detect a glimmer of optimism there. It is good to see that.

 

[avabob1]

Redding and dunbar couldnt shoot a lick. Whether Daniels makes it or not he has way more potential than those two. I am sure some guys hqve a better eye for diamond in the rough talent but there is at least an equal part luck. I have repeated this several times, but I remember Dick Bennett saying that the first great class he brought to Pullman was the only time he ever landed his top 5 targets

 

[ElComanche]

The recruiting season is young and i hope that EK lands a couple of HS players.I think that King,Flynn and Pollard will continue to improve. Somehow i do not share the pessimism which most posters have, it gets contagious with posters trying to forecast gloom and doom worse than the next person.

 

[bogusto]

The recruiting season is young and i hope that EK lands a couple of HS players.I think that King,Flynn and Pollard will continue to improve. Somehow i do not share the pessimism which most posters have, it gets contagious with posters trying to forecast gloom and doom worse than the next person.

Pie-in-the-sky flufferism only goes so far. Before too long, reality kicks in and rears its ugly head. My contention from the get-go has been that old man Bennett preached a believable scenario day one, and engendered a true belief that things would turn. Kent, not so much.

 

[SaveFerris]

Pie-in-the-sky flufferism only goes so far. Before too long, reality kicks in and rears its ugly head. My contention from the get-go has been that old man Bennett preached a believable scenario day one, and engendered a true belief that things would turn. Kent, not so much.

Best initial press conference I ever heard was Dick Bennett's.

 

[ElComanche]

Old man Bennetts teams teams were horrible. His son had a brief run and things were going to go downhill. He left Dodge before the fight and never looked back. Somehow to try and immortalize the old codger seems misplaced to me.He came in fielded horrible teams and gave his son a head coaching job.That is my summation of his reign.The younger guy made a killing on the Palouse and his wife hated it here. He would have to waited 5-10 years to get a head coaching job if the old man had not given a job he really hated. He really showed hs appreciation didn t he?

 

[avabob11]

Compared to the sewer that Eastman and Graham took the program Dick Bennett could rightfully be called a savior by the standards of WSU. His conference winning percentage in 3 years was better than Ernies over his first two seasons. He also landed a recruiting class in his second year that any of us would envy today. No question he set the table for Tony, and I agree that that Tony would have been hard pressed to ever approach those two magical 26 win seasons had he stayed. Klay Thompson masked the fact that Tony left the cupboard totally green if not bare.

 

[SaveFerris]

Sewer is kind. Without Dick there is no 'brief run'. He really put in the system, foundation, and was responsible for at least some of the players in the Low class. I don't know how many but I really think his eye was crucial. His final year Low went down at the end of ooc, Weaver move over to point, Harmelimg out for the year, Cowgill a year away, and we struggled in conference.

Dick's final wasn't like what we are about to watch this year or Graham level.

 

[avabob1]

My understanding was that Low Weaver Cowgill Harmeling and Henry were all targets Dick wanted. Not sure who carried the load or sealed the deal on them. Only Low had offers from other high D-1 programs

 

[bogusto]

Old man Bennetts teams teams were horrible. His son had a brief run and things were going to go downhill. He left Dodge before the fight and never looked back. Somehow to try and immortalize the old codger seems misplaced to me.He came in fielded horrible teams and gave his son a head coaching job.That is my summation of his reign.The younger guy made a killing on the Palouse and his wife hated it here. He would have to waited 5-10 years to get a head coaching job if the old man had not given a job he really hated. He really showed hs appreciation didn t he?

ElC: I don't know who you are or where your opinions have been formed, but to totally diss the Bennetts and prop up Ernie's- so far- pathetic attempts to field even a decent program, smack of unmitigated, irrational, biased baloney and are completely unworthy of anyone's consideration.

 

[avabob1]

The only thing wrong with Tony is that there is no way we could keep a coach of his caliber for any length of time. Unfortunately it is even more difficult to maintain those standards in Pullman when they leave.

 

[SaveFerris]

My understanding was that Low Weaver Cowgill Harmeling and Henry were all targets Dick wanted. Not sure who carried the load or sealed the deal on them. Only Low had offers from other high D-1 programs

Tony was crucial in getting them to Pullman because he was obviously who they were going to finish with as the head coach. I just look at Tony's initial recruiting as head coach and have to think Dick had a lot of say in the evaluation on that first group. They all fit his high level basic philosophy on players.

Another thing, if anyone doesn't believe what Dick did year 1 was not impressive they are crazy. We went from getting boat raced to taking #1 Stanford to the wire and only losing on a ridiculous 5 second call and circus 3 with mostly the same players. I'm a lot closer to 'immortalizing the old codger' than the other extreme.

 

[avabob1]

I heard Tony and his dad had some disagreements on recruiting. Supposedly Tony wanted a couple of more athletic jc kids early on and his dad wanted to go a different direction.

 

[ElComanche]

You guys can idolize the Bennetts but i would think that getting a reasonable coach in Pullman at that time might have had far better and longer positive consequences.WSU is suffering from the long term negative effects of the Bennetts.I hate "ugly ball and that is what the old codger gave us. Now fans actually think that is the only way to go.

 

[SaveFerris]

You guys can idolize the Bennetts but i would think that getting a reasonable coach in Pullman at that time might have had far better and longer positive consequences.WSU is suffering from the long term negative effects of the Bennetts.I hate "ugly ball and that is what the old codger gave us. Now fans actually think that is the only way to go.

Being competitive and actually winning games is "ugly ball". Ok.

 

[SaveFerris]

I heard Tony and his dad had some disagreements on recruiting. Supposedly Tony wanted a couple of more athletic jc kids early on and his dad wanted to go a different direction.

I heard that as well on the boards and I believe from Tony himself. How they spotted Cowgill was a good story. You can't be as successful as a Dick Bennett at his stops without being able to evaluate talent. If he had the energy and/or desire he would make a good player scout.

 

[ElComanche]

If you want to call DB competitive during his tenure here,go right ahead

 

[avabob1]

The thing you forget is how bad the situation was when Dick was hired. We could have offered 2 million and not lured a decent coach to Pullman. Getting Bennett was the best possible scenario for our situation. The improvement with Bennett was incredible we won 7 conference games the first season with only 3 D-1 caliber players on the team.

Also people forget that Dick had us 12-4 his 3rd year when Low went down with an injury

 

[SaveFerris]

If you want to call DB competitive during his tenure here,go right ahead

I already did go ahead.

 

[SaveFerris]

The thing you forget is how bad the situation was when Dick was hired. We could have offered 2 million and not lured a decent coach to Pullman. Getting Bennett was the best possible scenario for our situation. The improvement with Bennett was incredible we won 7 conference games the first season with only 3 D-1 caliber players on the team.

Also people forget that Dick had us 12-4 his 3rd year when Low went down with an injury

Weaver had to move over to point guard and Harmeling redshirted with an injury. Cowgill was ticketed for a redshirt before the Harmeling injury. Some of us remember. Dick did a good job in his 3 years to set things up. He handed it over to Tony but his last year probably ends differently without the injuries to key players.