Houston defensive coordinator David Gibbs to Texas Tech..
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Fab ..While I don't disagree in principle...has Leach ever been in this
position? Has he ever been a head coach that hadn't won in a decade and asked to build it? Hal Mumme had a winning season at Kentucky while Leach was on the staff. The job specs at tech much different than they were at WSU.
No coach is perfect, nor do they have a perfect eye. Leach clearly has a great eye for slot receivers for example. He would take Brett B over Marquis Wilson if he only had one spot left for a scholie. He knows his system and knows how important that slot guy is to his system. Not the most talented kid, but a kid who makes the offense work.
The question becomes like it was with Torey Hunter, if Lewis or someone like him is a 1000 yard receiver and a 12 TD guy on offense, and a shut down CB on defense, where is Leach likely to play him. I don't know the answer to that. Just a guess, Leach values offense a little over defense (goes to his philosophy) and that he is smart enough to outcoach his team in a 42-38 win, and Lewis to him helps him more on offense.
position? Has he ever been a head coach that hadn't won in a decade and asked to build it? Hal Mumme had a winning season at Kentucky while Leach was on the staff. The job specs at tech much different than they were at WSU.
No coach is perfect, nor do they have a perfect eye. Leach clearly has a great eye for slot receivers for example. He would take Brett B over Marquis Wilson if he only had one spot left for a scholie. He knows his system and knows how important that slot guy is to his system. Not the most talented kid, but a kid who makes the offense work.
The question becomes like it was with Torey Hunter, if Lewis or someone like him is a 1000 yard receiver and a 12 TD guy on offense, and a shut down CB on defense, where is Leach likely to play him. I don't know the answer to that. Just a guess, Leach values offense a little over defense (goes to his philosophy) and that he is smart enough to outcoach his team in a 42-38 win, and Lewis to him helps him more on offense.
Re: Fab ..While I don't disagree in principle...has Leach ever been in this
Give it up, Ed. Find something else to mope about. Claiming that we are gonna lose next year already bc we lost Cooper. Nice faith, man. Do you not think we've recruited the DL position pretty good with Big Joe? Have we not recruited the JC's well this year? I'm sure you want Dahu Green moved to safety or something. I'm pretty sure LaRue transferred to WSU because he thought he'd get the rock at receiver, we moved him to CB. You probably want Gerrard Wicks at linebacker, even though we have 2 running backs on scholarship or Cavin Green at corner. Dgibbons called it years ago under Wulff about you. You're a player fan, while most us cheer for the name on the front of the jersey, we have people like you that cheer for the name on the back. Since that name isn't Wulff anymore, you cheer for whoever plays the Cougs. If you can't see that our program is improving, we are closing the gap in recruiting and talent on the field, then youre hopeless. I suggest that you do what Wulff did, take all your Coug gear, drive down to your local Goodwill, drop it off and then remove WSU as your college on Facebook because you're clearly aren't a fan anymore.
Give it up, Ed. Find something else to mope about. Claiming that we are gonna lose next year already bc we lost Cooper. Nice faith, man. Do you not think we've recruited the DL position pretty good with Big Joe? Have we not recruited the JC's well this year? I'm sure you want Dahu Green moved to safety or something. I'm pretty sure LaRue transferred to WSU because he thought he'd get the rock at receiver, we moved him to CB. You probably want Gerrard Wicks at linebacker, even though we have 2 running backs on scholarship or Cavin Green at corner. Dgibbons called it years ago under Wulff about you. You're a player fan, while most us cheer for the name on the front of the jersey, we have people like you that cheer for the name on the back. Since that name isn't Wulff anymore, you cheer for whoever plays the Cougs. If you can't see that our program is improving, we are closing the gap in recruiting and talent on the field, then youre hopeless. I suggest that you do what Wulff did, take all your Coug gear, drive down to your local Goodwill, drop it off and then remove WSU as your college on Facebook because you're clearly aren't a fan anymore.
BH...Thank you for the morning chuckle...
1) First, I remember numerous meltdowns by you and how the Cougs would never win again, how we are doomed etc.I had more faith than that.
2) You can question many things about me, but don't ever question my loyalty to the Cougs. And I mean ever. When you were pissing and moaning and others were pissing and moaning about our coach at the time, how he didn't do this, or he lost that, or he was a prick to the players, did I ever ONCE question your love for the Cougs? Ever? Did it ever strike you odd that you wanted a guy fired, you and others threatened to withhold funds from the program until they got the hire you wanted and you were a loyal Coug, while a person you don't know supported the program because of who the program was (WSU) and not the coach or the players? This has to be the irony of all irony. You are a loyal solder and a true Coug because you support Leach but not the previous coach.
This Wulff thing has gotten old. How many times have I started a thread about Wulff since he was fired? I may have once, but not more than that. Yes, I have certainly jumped into those threads, but if people never bought up his name I would never have written about him. I don't know the man. I have never met him, texted, talked to him or even seen him.
He was our coach. Period. He was a Coug, and he was brought into an impossible position. I know more people on the current staff than I knew under Wulff. I hate it when a coach gets fired. It is personal to me. I see past the job we either think they did or didn't do. But that doesn't mean getting rid of a coach isn't the right thing to do.
So before you talk about how loyal a fan you are, and how I should take my gear down to the goodwill, remember that I have always had my season tickets, and on top of that, I always made sure three times a year I bought extra tickets and gave them away so more people were in the stands. Yes, a very small gesture, but I didn't do it because Walden, Price, Erickson or Wulff were the coaches, I do it because of what WSU meant and means to me. Can you say the same thing?
This whole discussion was about the DC's and why some may shy away from the job. It is not moping, it is not being negative, it is simply a reality for some. When the new guy is announced, will I be let down or disappointed if it is not a "Name"? Nope. Will it surprise me if they don't get a name? Nope. Will I wait and see what they do? Sure.
Saying a guy is focused on offense or in Rex Ryan's case defense is not a knock. It is who they are. Do you think elite OC's are banging down the door to join either Buddy Ryan's or Rex Ryan's door to be his offensive coordinator? Do you think if you have a huge ego as an OC and you want to score 30 a game your first choice is to coach for Pete Carroll? That is not a knock, but Carroll is going to throttle back his offense a bit in the NFL so he doesn't take unnecessary chances. The same goes for Leach. There are some DC's who will see him going for 4th down on his side of the 50 and say that really puts my defense at a huge disadvantage. None of that means Carroll, Leach, Ryan or whoever is a bad coach, it simply means at times they will be limited to who coordinates on the other side of the ball for them.
As to Cooper, yeah I think it is a huge loss. Yes, I think the numbers on both sides of the ball are way better under Joe and Leach, which will mean when they start winning they will be able to do it on a sustained basis. But do I think in 2015 that what Joe has recruited because of thei rlack of game experience can make up for a secondary that is lost, losing two players up front from their most experienced position (DLINE), having inexperience at QB , no pash rush and his recruiting turns that into a winning season in 2015? My history tells me no. But guess what, I will still enjoy the season and support the Cougs. . Will I want Leach fired after 2015 if he has his fourth straight losing season? Nope.
I have said many times my expectations is for us to win in 2016. Just as I said before I knew who the coach was in 2008 after Doba was let go, we won't win until at least 2012. That is my expectation. Sorry you take my analysis of having zero experience up front, limited experience at QB, a more than shaky secondary and somehow that turns into a sinning season. Was I being negative about 2014 when I said I don't see how Halliday improves enough between 2013 and 2014 to make up for the lack of a pass rush and a whole new secondary. I thought they would be 5-7, and with a break 6-6. And truth be told, as horrible as the defense was, they left three games on the table and could of had two back to back bowl games.
1) First, I remember numerous meltdowns by you and how the Cougs would never win again, how we are doomed etc.I had more faith than that.
2) You can question many things about me, but don't ever question my loyalty to the Cougs. And I mean ever. When you were pissing and moaning and others were pissing and moaning about our coach at the time, how he didn't do this, or he lost that, or he was a prick to the players, did I ever ONCE question your love for the Cougs? Ever? Did it ever strike you odd that you wanted a guy fired, you and others threatened to withhold funds from the program until they got the hire you wanted and you were a loyal Coug, while a person you don't know supported the program because of who the program was (WSU) and not the coach or the players? This has to be the irony of all irony. You are a loyal solder and a true Coug because you support Leach but not the previous coach.
This Wulff thing has gotten old. How many times have I started a thread about Wulff since he was fired? I may have once, but not more than that. Yes, I have certainly jumped into those threads, but if people never bought up his name I would never have written about him. I don't know the man. I have never met him, texted, talked to him or even seen him.
He was our coach. Period. He was a Coug, and he was brought into an impossible position. I know more people on the current staff than I knew under Wulff. I hate it when a coach gets fired. It is personal to me. I see past the job we either think they did or didn't do. But that doesn't mean getting rid of a coach isn't the right thing to do.
So before you talk about how loyal a fan you are, and how I should take my gear down to the goodwill, remember that I have always had my season tickets, and on top of that, I always made sure three times a year I bought extra tickets and gave them away so more people were in the stands. Yes, a very small gesture, but I didn't do it because Walden, Price, Erickson or Wulff were the coaches, I do it because of what WSU meant and means to me. Can you say the same thing?
This whole discussion was about the DC's and why some may shy away from the job. It is not moping, it is not being negative, it is simply a reality for some. When the new guy is announced, will I be let down or disappointed if it is not a "Name"? Nope. Will it surprise me if they don't get a name? Nope. Will I wait and see what they do? Sure.
Saying a guy is focused on offense or in Rex Ryan's case defense is not a knock. It is who they are. Do you think elite OC's are banging down the door to join either Buddy Ryan's or Rex Ryan's door to be his offensive coordinator? Do you think if you have a huge ego as an OC and you want to score 30 a game your first choice is to coach for Pete Carroll? That is not a knock, but Carroll is going to throttle back his offense a bit in the NFL so he doesn't take unnecessary chances. The same goes for Leach. There are some DC's who will see him going for 4th down on his side of the 50 and say that really puts my defense at a huge disadvantage. None of that means Carroll, Leach, Ryan or whoever is a bad coach, it simply means at times they will be limited to who coordinates on the other side of the ball for them.
As to Cooper, yeah I think it is a huge loss. Yes, I think the numbers on both sides of the ball are way better under Joe and Leach, which will mean when they start winning they will be able to do it on a sustained basis. But do I think in 2015 that what Joe has recruited because of thei rlack of game experience can make up for a secondary that is lost, losing two players up front from their most experienced position (DLINE), having inexperience at QB , no pash rush and his recruiting turns that into a winning season in 2015? My history tells me no. But guess what, I will still enjoy the season and support the Cougs. . Will I want Leach fired after 2015 if he has his fourth straight losing season? Nope.
I have said many times my expectations is for us to win in 2016. Just as I said before I knew who the coach was in 2008 after Doba was let go, we won't win until at least 2012. That is my expectation. Sorry you take my analysis of having zero experience up front, limited experience at QB, a more than shaky secondary and somehow that turns into a sinning season. Was I being negative about 2014 when I said I don't see how Halliday improves enough between 2013 and 2014 to make up for the lack of a pass rush and a whole new secondary. I thought they would be 5-7, and with a break 6-6. And truth be told, as horrible as the defense was, they left three games on the table and could of had two back to back bowl games.
Re: BH...Thank you for the morning chuckle...
I read it.
Why would we want to hire a coach who sees impediments in the "perception" issues... when reality shows that to be a false perception? Essentially, why hire any coach who's biggest issue is stuff that he made up?
Oh, and yes- several times during the Wulff era, my Cougliness was called on the carpet (not by you) for having the audacity to question Wulff's idiot decisions- after all, if I knew what I was talking about, I'D be coaching the team, and I shouldn't care so much, anyways. But, 9-40.
This post was edited on 1/7 11:19 AM by wulffui
I read it.
Why would we want to hire a coach who sees impediments in the "perception" issues... when reality shows that to be a false perception? Essentially, why hire any coach who's biggest issue is stuff that he made up?
Oh, and yes- several times during the Wulff era, my Cougliness was called on the carpet (not by you) for having the audacity to question Wulff's idiot decisions- after all, if I knew what I was talking about, I'D be coaching the team, and I shouldn't care so much, anyways. But, 9-40.
This post was edited on 1/7 11:19 AM by wulffui
Why would we...we wouldn't. Perceptions in the coaching world and
actually anywhere else become reality. So you are correct, there is some self weeding out that goes on, on both sides. Can you show me another vacancy in college football in the last five years (this year specifically) where a position has been open for 45 days? Let me ask you about perception vs reality. Lets say Mike Leach said I want to go back to Law School and WSU had to look for another coach. Moos looks to the Seahawks and wants Quinn. Quinn tells Carroll he is interviewing with WSU. You don't think Carroll could and would say "Dan you are a great coordinator and you are ready for a head job, but WSU is a coach killer. Look at doba, Wulff and now Leach". Is that perception or reality, and do you not believe that happens.
How long did it take OSU to get their coordinator? Michigan? Nebraska? It has taken longer. I don't believe he is off in Key West or Mexico just chilling and hoping for the best. It has to be the right fit for him. But it has taken long and the "names" have gone elsewhere.
If I said Wulff didn't have the coaching tree to snag a top flight coordinator is that a horrible thing to say? He was very limited in his search in year three. The best coaches in my opinion are like Dennis Erickson who jumped from here to there, and was able to expand his coaching circle. Wulff was in one place which hurt him. Just like Mike Walker-it hurt him by only being at WSU. He was a very good position coach, but he didn't know enough people in the coaching profession. Not what you know but who you know.
And no, because you complained about what you saw on the field does not make you less a Coug. I would say if you held your support in ransom, yeah, one could make that claim.
actually anywhere else become reality. So you are correct, there is some self weeding out that goes on, on both sides. Can you show me another vacancy in college football in the last five years (this year specifically) where a position has been open for 45 days? Let me ask you about perception vs reality. Lets say Mike Leach said I want to go back to Law School and WSU had to look for another coach. Moos looks to the Seahawks and wants Quinn. Quinn tells Carroll he is interviewing with WSU. You don't think Carroll could and would say "Dan you are a great coordinator and you are ready for a head job, but WSU is a coach killer. Look at doba, Wulff and now Leach". Is that perception or reality, and do you not believe that happens.
How long did it take OSU to get their coordinator? Michigan? Nebraska? It has taken longer. I don't believe he is off in Key West or Mexico just chilling and hoping for the best. It has to be the right fit for him. But it has taken long and the "names" have gone elsewhere.
If I said Wulff didn't have the coaching tree to snag a top flight coordinator is that a horrible thing to say? He was very limited in his search in year three. The best coaches in my opinion are like Dennis Erickson who jumped from here to there, and was able to expand his coaching circle. Wulff was in one place which hurt him. Just like Mike Walker-it hurt him by only being at WSU. He was a very good position coach, but he didn't know enough people in the coaching profession. Not what you know but who you know.
And no, because you complained about what you saw on the field does not make you less a Coug. I would say if you held your support in ransom, yeah, one could make that claim.
Re: Did I say that? Yes, Leach recruited Dockery as a corner,
Why would a name DC (or any other DC) feel like Leach would be resistant to moving athletes to defense as needed, given the evidence everyone has cited for you?
What particular reason is there to believe Leach would be more resistant to this than anyone else? Frankly, I think it's the opposite ... Texas Tech saw offensive players move to defense under Leach as well, and we've given you tons of examples at WSU that cut against whatever point you're trying to make.
Since we're just asking questions here, why not ask whether a name DC might see working under Leach as a distinct advantage in that the Leach offense and name may tend to recruit a surplus of athletes on offense, thereby allowing the DC access to some athletes in addition to those that he can recruit?
Ed, if you're going to "ask questions" like this, why not whether Breske in fact made those exact requests (i.e., that one or more of Jackson, Dockery, or LaRue be moved to defense to give him the athletes he needed at CB)? Why isn't Leach hording a guy like Charleston White at WR? Why did Morrow get reps at CB in practice?
Why would a name DC (or any other DC) feel like Leach would be resistant to moving athletes to defense as needed, given the evidence everyone has cited for you?
What particular reason is there to believe Leach would be more resistant to this than anyone else? Frankly, I think it's the opposite ... Texas Tech saw offensive players move to defense under Leach as well, and we've given you tons of examples at WSU that cut against whatever point you're trying to make.
Since we're just asking questions here, why not ask whether a name DC might see working under Leach as a distinct advantage in that the Leach offense and name may tend to recruit a surplus of athletes on offense, thereby allowing the DC access to some athletes in addition to those that he can recruit?
Re: Why would we...we wouldn't. Perceptions in the coaching world and
All those teams you named replaced their HC, too, and Michigan just got their guy yesterday. We also saw last year, where USC "retained" Pendergast... until the moment the price dropped on Wilcox's buyout, on the 1st of February. When things take time like this, given the bounty of recruits they landed with (position open), I don't think this was a bunch of swings and misses, or a ploy to trick recruits by saying a bigger fish would show up. We can speculate until we know, but I doubt it's "holidays/Geronimo book tour".
And this "perceptions become reality" thing... unless there's some reality to it, no, they don't. Defensive coaches want to play for offenses that score points, and this offense does that at an average level now, and looks to trend upward with everything that returns. D coordinators also want an offense which moves and holds onto the ball, which this offense does at an above average level now. In Reality, John Chavis said as much leaving LSU, who also still doesn't have a DC.
And I think this year, with a kicker you couldn't trust with extra points, exaggerated the worst parts of Riverboat Gambler Leach- he wasn't coaching that way with Furney, so I see it as situational more than something ingrained. The special teams can't possibly be as bad next year.
All those teams you named replaced their HC, too, and Michigan just got their guy yesterday. We also saw last year, where USC "retained" Pendergast... until the moment the price dropped on Wilcox's buyout, on the 1st of February. When things take time like this, given the bounty of recruits they landed with (position open), I don't think this was a bunch of swings and misses, or a ploy to trick recruits by saying a bigger fish would show up. We can speculate until we know, but I doubt it's "holidays/Geronimo book tour".
And this "perceptions become reality" thing... unless there's some reality to it, no, they don't. Defensive coaches want to play for offenses that score points, and this offense does that at an average level now, and looks to trend upward with everything that returns. D coordinators also want an offense which moves and holds onto the ball, which this offense does at an above average level now. In Reality, John Chavis said as much leaving LSU, who also still doesn't have a DC.
And I think this year, with a kicker you couldn't trust with extra points, exaggerated the worst parts of Riverboat Gambler Leach- he wasn't coaching that way with Furney, so I see it as situational more than something ingrained. The special teams can't possibly be as bad next year.
What is the reality in points scored?
How many points do we score against quality opponents? ASU I think was our biggest offensive output this year beside the Oregon game. What's the conference average? Do you believe right now we are above it or below it.
Yes, the Oregon game was perfect. Halliday played the perfect game. But is that representative? Not being negative, I just view it from the Utah/ASU/USC/UW/Arizona/Stanford games in which we were well below average. That I think is the reality. So if DC like Chavis says he wants to give his team the best chance to play winning football, can you say this offense is above average? On top of that you have a coach who isn't afraid to go for 4th down when conventional guys punt.
I am not saying you aren't correct. But to deny Leach has that reputation and that weeded out a potential employed DC's I think is not accurate. Just like I am sure Buddy Ryans perceived reputation did as well.
How many points do we score against quality opponents? ASU I think was our biggest offensive output this year beside the Oregon game. What's the conference average? Do you believe right now we are above it or below it.
Yes, the Oregon game was perfect. Halliday played the perfect game. But is that representative? Not being negative, I just view it from the Utah/ASU/USC/UW/Arizona/Stanford games in which we were well below average. That I think is the reality. So if DC like Chavis says he wants to give his team the best chance to play winning football, can you say this offense is above average? On top of that you have a coach who isn't afraid to go for 4th down when conventional guys punt.
I am not saying you aren't correct. But to deny Leach has that reputation and that weeded out a potential employed DC's I think is not accurate. Just like I am sure Buddy Ryans perceived reputation did as well.
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