How is it Mike Leach gets and sells WSU better than those who

[CougEd]

played here? Rosie, Greene, Yarno, Wulff, Broussard, Levy, (I wont include Walker) Roberson etc? I do understand he has a cache, but whenever he speaks he is a master in communicating WSU's uniqueness.

Heck, even Jim Walden sold WSU better than the players I mentioned.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

I think the ability to communicate your vision and your sense of place effectively the way that Walden did and Leach does is the difference between a head coach and assistant coaches....... I'm looking at you Paul.

 

[M-I-Coug]

Because he's a genius.

Also, you don't get profiled on CBS's 60 Minutes, unless you're rare, a genius, or have a special talent or gift.

 

[CPtheCoug]

Did you read Swing Your Sword? There are a few stories in there on how he recruits and I doubt it has changed that much since he came to Pullman.

Also the brand new dorms next to the women's soccer field (stadium now?), new football athletic facilities, and renovated stadium (and I suppose the new jerseys too) probably help.

 

[M-I-Coug]

Noticed how he made reference on ESPN when talking about Cougar Gold and it's Ice Cream?

..."it's not open now, but I'm sure they'll open it for you".

Think about it. It's crazy that Fernanand's has such tight hours. Never open after a football game. Of course, midnight is a little late...but it's a suggestion, perhaps....to the powers who control Ferninand's store hours.

My point? Smart guy. "Darnald is not ready for the NFL". What does that mean? Hey, NFL Scouts, Darnald is not ready, but our guy is!

He has a way of getting a message across to folks like no other.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

Most people are not fully competent at their job. That doesn't mean that they are incompetent; rather, that they probably don't have the skill set to do all that they are expected to do in all phases of their job. The list of players that you noted are not known for the sorts of communication or other skills that someone needs in order to sell something. A few of them could not even sell themselves a few times, so it is unrealistic to think that they could effectively sell something to a recruit, even if it was something that they lived themselves.

And as noted by another poster, it is pretty hard to succeed as a HC without those skills. As an assistant, maybe...if you were strong enough in other categories. Still, an assistant who can't recruit is a boat anchor in today's P5 football.

 

[CougPatrol]

I attribute it to his Wyoming upbringing. He gets it.

 

[MRICoug]

I think part of it is that he seems to truly enjoy Pullman overall. I think it helps sell when the person foing so came by choice as well. Leach had no connection here, and chose it anyway....that feels real in a conversation. I also think je embraces the true college town theme and can speak about what that means to the player, and the parents. The other guys lived it, but most were here because it was their highest level offer...they chose it because it was better than alternatives. Leach could chose many places, and chose here. Facilities obviously help as well.

 

[Cougsocal]

Typical CougEd conflating things. Mike leach is a great coach who wins with less. He is winnning by and large with recruits that want to play P-12 ball, and we are their last hope or nearly so, i.e. top 50 classes. He and his staff have done a great job of picking the real talent from this group. He isn't selling kids on Pullman over USC, UCLA, Stanford, UW, Oregon, Cal or even ASU by and large. His recruiting has improved some, but how much of that is winning, than "destination Pullman?"

As for Levy, Yarno, Steve and Rosie etc. Levy has always had that "put offing" snot snorting habit. Despite that, he coached for teams in Pullman that were far more talented than what we have now. He coached on the deepest, most talented, team we've ever had, including the most talented receiving corps. But then Mike Price left .... As for Steve, he had the misfortune of having to recruiting under Wulff. A dumpster fire is a tough tough sell. No assistant recruited worth a damn under numb nuts. Timm coached under Doba. Doba's recruits were at least as good as we have now, he had several NFL players, but Bill wasn't a head coach by nature, his claim to fame was the 1994 defense, AKA the defense that Mike Zimmer built. His three near bowl teams, however, would have been with Leach at the helm. George coached under Price and Doba, He had success with the OL under Doba, but not under Price and was effectively fired. Here the thing, George was canned not because of recruiting, but because the1994 offense was dreadful. Regardless, Price's problems recruiting consistently, particularly the OL occurred with and without George. And let's not forget that the bulk of the 97 Rose Bowl team was recruited while George was in Pullman.

Ultimately, CougEd's premise fails at every turn.

 

[avabob11]

I think the overall 2 deep depth under Leach is surpassing anything we have seen in the past.

 

[Fab5Coug]

played here? Rosie, Greene, Yarno, Wulff, Broussard, Levy, (I wont include Walker) Roberson etc? I do understand he has a cache, but whenever he speaks he is a master in communicating WSU's uniqueness.

Heck, even Jim Walden sold WSU better than the players I mentioned.

That's a pretty lousy group of recruiters, minus maybe Broussard. Has nothing to do with being alums.

And, FWIW, I don't know that Leach, himself is a tremendous recruiter. Manning, Mastro, Wilson & Mele are.

 

[Loyal Coug]

Typical CougEd conflating things. Mike leach is a great coach who wins with less. He is winnning by and large with recruits that want to play P-12 ball, and we are their last hope or nearly so, i.e. top 50 classes. He and his staff have done a great job of picking the real talent from this group. He isn't selling kids on Pullman over USC, UCLA, Stanford, UW, Oregon, Cal or even ASU by and large. His recruiting has improved some, but how much of that is winning, than "destination Pullman?"

As for Levy, Yarno, Steve and Rosie etc. Levy has always had that "put offing" snot snorting habit. Despite that, he coached for teams in Pullman that were far more talented than what we have now. He coached on the deepest, most talented, team we've ever had, including the most talented receiving corps. But then Mike Price left .... As for Steve, he had the misfortune of having to recruiting under Wulff. A dumpster fire is a tough tough sell. No assistant recruited worth a damn under numb nuts. Timm coached under Doba. Doba's recruits were at least as good as we have now, he had several NFL players, but Bill wasn't a head coach by nature, his claim to fame was the 1994 defense, AKA the defense that Mike Zimmer built. His three near bowl teams, however, would have been with Leach at the helm. George coached under Price and Doba, He had success with the OL under Doba, but not under Price and was effectively fired. Here the thing, George was canned not because of recruiting, but because the1994 offense was dreadful. Regardless, Price's problems recruiting consistently, particularly the OL occurred with and without George. And let's not forget that the bulk of the 97 Rose Bowl team was recruited while George was in Pullman.

Ultimately, CougEd's premise fails at every turn.

I thought Ed made a better point than you, SoCal. That point was that CML does a better job of highlighting the good things about Pullman and WSU than a bunch of former coaches that actually played here. I think that point is right on. Rare for our friend Ed, but even a broken watch is right twice a day.

 

[kayak15]

Sorry, SoCal, I've got to go with Loyal. Ed's point that Leach and staff are doing a better job of selling the attraction of a college town environment than some former Cougs who spent time in that college town is a fair one. Price tried his best but without adequate facilities. Moos gave Leach those facilities and the results show. Fab's post regarding CML's recruiting abilities may be true but he is the "CEO" of the program and has set the tone. Some pretty good recruiters have been added to his staff by him and he has turned them loose selling that college experience without the side effects of a major metropolitan area. Obviously it has resonated with some prospects and their parents.

 

[Cougsocal]

Sorry, SoCal, I've got to go with Loyal. Ed's point that Leach and staff are doing a better job of selling the attraction of a college town environment than some former Cougs who spent time in that college town is a fair one. Price tried his best but without adequate facilities. Moos gave Leach those facilities and the results show. Fab's post regarding CML's recruiting abilities may be true but he is the "CEO" of the program and has set the tone. Some pretty good recruiters have been added to his staff by him and he has turned them loose selling that college experience without the side effects of a major metropolitan area. Obviously it has resonated with some prospects and their parents.

Leach and Co. selling of Pullman has not resulted in a single recruiting class that has broken the top 50, according to rivals. How do you reconcile that with what you are saying? It tells me that Leach and Co. can evaluate the hell out of 2 and 3 star talent, talent that is available by mere P-12 membership, but they haven't sold many blue chippers on Pullman. Price's pre Rose Bowl class was ranked 28 (#6 in conference), with 5, 4 and 5 star recruits with crap facilities and 1 bowl in 5 years. That is selling Pullman in my book. Great facilities, 3 bowls in 4 years and a #51 ( #11 in conference; Colorado #7, OSU #9) recruiting class says Mike Leach and co. are far better coaches (elite) than salesmen. What am I missing here?

In my ideal world you have coaches who can sell Pullman like Price & co but who can coach like Leach & co. The 2002 talent with Leach at the helm beats tOSU in Columbus and runs the table, I believe.

 

[roses04]

Along with a good staff of recruiters there is one big difference between Leach and all the other coaches. Leach sees Pullman as an asset, and a great place to live. All other coaches perceived Pullman to be a liability, and tried to convince people living in Pullman would be OK, it's only 4 years of your life.

 

[dgibbons]

Leach and Co. selling of Pullman has not resulted in a single recruiting class that has broken the top 50, according to rivals. How do you reconcile that with what you are saying? It tells me that Leach and Co. can evaluate the hell out of 2 and 3 star talent, talent that is available by mere P-12 membership, but they haven't sold many blue chippers on Pullman. Price's pre Rose Bowl class was ranked 28 (#6 in conference), with 5, 4 and 5 star recruits with crap facilities and 1 bowl in 5 years. That is selling Pullman in my book. Great facilities, 3 bowls in 4 years and a #51 ( #11 in conference; Colorado #7, OSU #9) recruiting class says Mike Leach and co. are far better coaches (elite) than salesmen. What am I missing here?

In my ideal world you have coaches who can sell Pullman like Price & co but who can coach like Leach & co. The 2002 talent with Leach at the helm beats tOSU in Columbus and runs the table, I believe.

The strength and conditioning program is top notch. And unheralded guys (Cracraft, Sweet) that fit this system can really excel.

 

[CougEd]

That's a pretty lousy group of recruiters, minus maybe Broussard. Has nothing to do with being alums.

And, FWIW, I don't know that Leach, himself is a tremendous recruiter. Manning, Mastro, Wilson & Mele are.

Why do you believe Broussard wasn't lousy?

 

[Loyal Coug]

Leach and Co. selling of Pullman has not resulted in a single recruiting class that has broken the top 50, according to rivals. How do you reconcile that with what you are saying? It tells me that Leach and Co. can evaluate the hell out of 2 and 3 star talent, talent that is available by mere P-12 membership, but they haven't sold many blue chippers on Pullman. Price's pre Rose Bowl class was ranked 28 (#6 in conference), with 5, 4 and 5 star recruits with crap facilities and 1 bowl in 5 years. That is selling Pullman in my book. Great facilities, 3 bowls in 4 years and a #51 ( #11 in conference; Colorado #7, OSU #9) recruiting class says Mike Leach and co. are far better coaches (elite) than salesmen. What am I missing here?

In my ideal world you have coaches who can sell Pullman like Price & co but who can coach like Leach & co. The 2002 talent with Leach at the helm beats tOSU in Columbus and runs the table, I believe.

Just to argue, since that's what we do here on Cougzone, ED referred to:
"played here? Rosie, Greene, Yarno, Wulff, Broussard, Levy, (I wont include Walker) Roberson"

Pretty sure the only one of those guys that were around in 1997 and 2002 was Levy. The Doba/Wulff years are what we are talking about. Get your decades straight please.

 

[Cougsocal]

The strength and conditioning program is top notch. And unheralded guys (Cracraft, Sweet) that fit this system can really excel.

Whatever Leach is doing is working. Geez when was the last time that USC players were dropping like flies when we played them? He may be among the best pure coaches of football, ever. He took Wulff recruits, i.e. the lowest level D1 talent 90 + ranked, to a bowl. That is crazy good. But as a recruiter, when you can't break the top 50 with brand new facilities, 3 bowls in 4 years, and great name recognition, "Mr. Recruiting" you are not. Look at Colorado, one winning season in forever, and bam, they out recruit ASU, UA Cal, OSU, and US. We can muse about Leach's many great qualities and abilities. Hell he is even great at marketing himself, but good at recruiting to Pullman isn't on his resume, yet. If that ever really happens, watch the F___ out, championship game here we come.

 

[CougEd]

Typical CougEd conflating things. Mike leach is a great coach who wins with less. He is winnning by and large with recruits that want to play P-12 ball, and we are their last hope or nearly so, i.e. top 50 classes. He and his staff have done a great job of picking the real talent from this group. He isn't selling kids on Pullman over USC, UCLA, Stanford, UW, Oregon, Cal or even ASU by and large. His recruiting has improved some, but how much of that is winning, than "destination Pullman?"

As for Levy, Yarno, Steve and Rosie etc. Levy has always had that "put offing" snot snorting habit. Despite that, he coached for teams in Pullman that were far more talented than what we have now. He coached on the deepest, most talented, team we've ever had, including the most talented receiving corps. But then Mike Price left .... As for Steve, he had the misfortune of having to recruiting under Wulff. A dumpster fire is a tough tough sell. No assistant recruited worth a damn under numb nuts. Timm coached under Doba. Doba's recruits were at least as good as we have now, he had several NFL players, but Bill wasn't a head coach by nature, his claim to fame was the 1994 defense, AKA the defense that Mike Zimmer built. His three near bowl teams, however, would have been with Leach at the helm. George coached under Price and Doba, He had success with the OL under Doba, but not under Price and was effectively fired. Here the thing, George was canned not because of recruiting, but because the1994 offense was dreadful. Regardless, Price's problems recruiting consistently, particularly the OL occurred with and without George. And let's not forget that the bulk of the 97 Rose Bowl team was recruited while George was in Pullman.

Ultimately, CougEd's premise fails at every turn.

Guilty. I am a conflator. Leach is a marginal recruiter and hasn't figured out how to recruit kids to Pullman.

Rosie, Broussard, Levy all had the advantage of recruiting off the most successful time in WSU's history. Take a peek at the 04 class. Alex Hamel? Bluhm? Baird? Cole Morgan? Even Gary Rogers.

I can go on and on. I could make an argument even "numbnuts" classes were at least equal if not better. They were certainly at the QB position.

While Leach isnt getting classes in the top 50, he is getting the A- players Doba with the aid of Pflugrad forgot to get locked up.

I have heard it on more than one occasion those recruiters were lazy. I find that hard to believe but the All Coug staff clearly did not work. They could sell or didnt sell the Trufants, Coleman's, Jason David's of the world.

Broussard didn't do anything in LA, and Walker even struggled. Yarno was fired by Saban at LSU cause he couldnt recruit. Levy wouldn't go outside of Tacoma. Rosie- what was he going to sell. Yarno didn't play well with others. Ken Greene- well he had other interests. But the fact of the matter is Walden sold WSU better than those who went there. And so does Leach even if he is not in the top 50 of recruiting classes.

The Qb that verballed was on TV last night on ESPN for the elite 11. Who knows if the kid will turn out to be the next Luke Falk or QB Big Back who was going to BBQ the Pac 10.

But you are right, Leach's sales skills are average at best. At least on par with Levy, Greene, Yarno, Rosie and Greene.

 

[Fab5Coug]

Why do you believe Broussard wasn't lousy?

I don't know, was he? I remember the rap on him was that he was a pretty good recruiter. I know he had a couple Pac12 gigs after WSU, including UCLA. Generally, you don't get hired at UCLA if you're a recruiting liability.

I guess I don't know for sure though, and I honestly don't really care to go back and look specifically who he recruited. It doesn't really change the point I was trying to make anyway.

 

[dgibbons]

Whatever Leach is doing is working. Geez when was the last time that USC players were dropping like flies when we played them? He may be among the best pure coaches of football, ever. He took Wulff recruits, i.e. the lowest level D1 talent 90 + ranked, to a bowl. That is crazy good. But as a recruiter, when you can't break the top 50 with brand new facilities, 3 bowls in 4 years, and great name recognition, "Mr. Recruiting" you are not. Look at Colorado, one winning season in forever, and bam, they out recruit ASU, UA Cal, OSU, and US. We can muse about Leach's many great qualities and abilities. Hell he is even great at marketing himself, but good at recruiting to Pullman isn't on his resume, yet. If that ever really happens, watch the F___ out, championship game here we come.

There is validity to your point.

However, when you take the number of OLs Leach does, all of which are two or three star, combined with a few nobodies like Cracraft and Sweet and guys from the islands that no one has really evaluated, it doesn't help your recruiting ranking. The four star skill guys have an undue impact on the rankings.

 

[Fab5Coug]

Guilty. I am a conflator. Leach is a marginal recruiter and hasn't figured out how to recruit kids to Pullman.

Rosie, Broussard, Levy all had the advantage of recruiting off the most successful time in WSU's history. Take a peek at the 04 class. Alex Hamel? Bluhm? Baird? Cole Morgan? Even Gary Rogers.

I can go on and on. I could make an argument even "numbnuts" classes were at least equal if not better. They were certainly at the QB position.

While Leach isnt getting classes in the top 50, he is getting the A- players Doba with the aid of Pflugrad forgot to get locked up.

I have heard it on more than one occasion those recruiters were lazy. I find that hard to believe but the All Coug staff clearly did not work. They could sell or didnt sell the Trufants, Coleman's, Jason David's of the world.

Broussard didn't do anything in LA, and Walker even struggled. Yarno was fired by Saban at LSU cause he couldnt recruit. Levy wouldn't go outside of Tacoma. Rosie- what was he going to sell. Yarno didn't play well with others. Ken Greene. well he had other interests. But the fact of the matter is Walden sold WSU better than those who went there. And so does Leach even if he is not in the top 50 of recruiting classes.

The Qb that verballed was on TV last night on ESPN for the elite 11. Who knows if teh kid will turn out to be the next Luke Falk or QB Big Back who was going to BBQ the Pac 10.

But you are right, Leach's sales skills are average at best. At least on par with Levy, Greene, Yarno, Rosie and Greene.

No, if Leach is an "average" recruiter, that still puts him head & shoulders above those guys.

 

[Cougsocal]

Just to argue, since that's what we do here on Cougzone, ED referred to:
"played here? Rosie, Greene, Yarno, Wulff, Broussard, Levy, (I wont include Walker) Roberson"

Pretty sure the only one of those guys that were around in 1997 and 2002 was Levy. The Doba/Wulff years are what we are talking about. Get your decades straight please.

Yarno was here during the Price and Doba eras. Also the Doba era recruiting on paper was very similar to Leach if you throw out 2003 i.e. #25 #52 #45 and #62. Doba's "poor recruiting" is a myth that CougEd and the Wulff apologists trot out. Only Steve and Roberson was here during the douche bag era, as I recall, when recruiting utterly sucked. Can you really blame them.for poor recruiting to a dumpster fire? So guess what, CougEd premise is full of horshit! Leach hasn't demonstrated that he and his staff can recruit well to Pullman, and there is is little evidence that the former Cougs were crap recruiters, when not chained to the Wulff millstone.

 

[gazooks2]

Leach is an above average recruiter. However leach and his staff are great evaluators of talent and are able to look at 3 star talent who will fit into his system.I have watched videos of some of his recruits and cannot figure out why they are not rated higher. Perhaps they are underrated because of lazy recruiters who rely on 4 and five star ratings by people who do not know what they are looking at.? It seems like every year, players are offered with no other offers. Then after,the cougs offer,they are offered by many other P5 colleges and they are assigned more stars. Coincidence?,i think not.

 

[Fab5Coug]

Wulff really only had, what I would consider an acceptable class 1 time out of his 4 efforts.

The '08 class was a complete disaster, but I guess it's what you'd expect when a coach needs to fill 20+ spots in 2 months and doesn't really have the connections to do so with Pac12 caliber players. The best contributor was probably Karstetter, and he was recruited by Doba.

In '09, he actually won some Pac12 recruiting battles over a coachless UW. Now why, with the numbers they had on the roster, they decided to only enroll 17 guys in that class, I don't know.

The '10 class was by far his best, and actually fairly good by Pac12 standards. 3 NFL players in that class in Bucannon, Wilson & Cooper (4 if you include Davontae Booker), plus Halliday, and a handful of other solid contributors.

In '11, it was pretty much dead man walking. Wulff wasn't going to be winning any legitimate recruiting battles at that point. Dom Williams, Darryl Paulo and that was about it, unless you want to count Darryl Monroe as a positive influence on the program.

'12 was shaping up to look very similar to '11. Thank goodness Leach gutted it (but kept the linemen), so he could add Marks, Allison, Lewis, Destiny, Barber & Palacio.

 

[Fab5Coug]

Leach is an above average recruiter. However leach and his staff are great evaporators of talent and are able to look at 3 star talent who will fit into his system.I have watched videos of some of his recruits and cannot figure out why they are not rated higher. Perhaps they are underrated because of lazy recruiters who rely on 4 and five star ratings by people who do not know what they are looking at.? It seems like every year, players are offered with no other offers. Then after,the cougs offer,they are offered by many other P5 colleges and they are assigned more stars. Coincidence?,i think not.

Hey, no one evaporated talent like Wulff.

 

[CougEd]

I don't know, was he? I remember the rap on him was that he was a pretty good recruiter. I know he had a couple Pac12 gigs after WSU, including UCLA. Generally, you don't get hired at UCLA if you're a recruiting liability.

I guess I don't know for sure though, and I honestly don't really care to go back and look specifically who he recruited. It doesn't really change the point I was trying to make anyway.

Well if you go by the letter of the law you posted something that was factually incorrect even if it didn't have any bearing on your point. : )

He was fired from the gig before the head coach who hired him was fired. I think people expected his connections to LA would be a big boon. Wasn't the case.

Could be that they couldn't sell beer to Frank Gallagher. But Leach is very strategic and may not trying to be when he talks about Pullman in public. Even the home spun talk about Ferdinands makes it sound friendly and inviting.

 

[gazooks2]

Yup spell check did it again to me. i had already changed before i read your posts. leach is not evaporating talent but letting it rain down on the opposition.

 

[CougEd]

Wulff really only had, what I would consider an acceptable class 1 time out of his 4 efforts.

The '08 class was a complete disaster, but I guess it's what you'd expect when a coach needs to fill 20+ spots in 2 months and doesn't really have the connections to do so with Pac12 caliber players. The best contributor was probably Karstetter, and he was recruited by Doba.

In '09, he actually won some Pac12 recruiting battles over a coachless UW. Now why, with the numbers they had on the roster, they decided to only enroll 17 guys in that class, I don't know.

The '10 class was by far his best, and actually fairly good by Pac12 standards. 3 NFL players in that class in Bucannon, Wilson & Cooper (4 if you include Davontae Booker), plus Halliday, and a handful of other solid contributors.

In '11, it was pretty much dead man walking. Wulff wasn't going to be winning any legitimate recruiting battles at that point. Dom Williams, Darryl Paulo and that was about it, unless you want to count Darryl Monroe as a positive influence on the program.

'12 was shaping up to look very similar to '11. Thank goodness Leach gutted it (but kept the linemen), so he could add Marks, Allison, Lewis, Destiny, Barber & Palacio.

It was told to me by someone on this board that in 08 they didn't even have kids evaluated. The coach had to start from scratch. Compare that to 12 when they had 20 kids committed by November and Leach could get rid of the kids he wanted to get rid of. But I agree 2008 was a bad class but fully expected to be. The best kids in that class both broke their necks. Cory McKay was going to be really special. LeAndre Daniels was Buchanon before Buchanon. Certainly a low point. But were 04-07 classes ripe with talent, when they should have been?

I will take Daryl Monroe over Alex Hamel and Stephan Bluhm any day of the week. I would take Tuel and Haliday, Clements and even Apodoca over QB Big Back, Cole Morgan and Gary Rogers. And no I don't need to be reminded that Ark Hall was an elite 11 QB.

 

[Fab5Coug]

It was told to me by someone on this board that in 08 they didn't even have kids evaluated. The coach had to start from scratch. Compare that to 12 when they had 20 kids committed by November and Leach could get rid of the kids he wanted to get rid of. But I agree 2008 was a bad class but fully expected to be. The best kids in that class both broke their necks. Cory McKay was going to be really special. LeAndre Daniels was Buchanon before Buchanon. Certainly a low point. But were 04-07 classes ripe with talent, when they should have been?

I will take Daryl Monroe over Alex Hamel and Stephan Bluhm any day of the week. I would take Tuel and Haliday, Clements and even Apodoca over QB Big Back, Cole Morgan and Gary Rogers. And no I don't need to be reminded that Ark Hall was an elite 11 QB.

Yea, looking back at '08 now is even more amazing. That staff had 3 guys committed in like November. That's unheard of. I wonder if there was a school in the entire country this year that didn't have 3 guys by August 1st.

Doba's & Wulff's staffs failed at recruiting for very different reasons. The thing with Wulff & his staff, I will never criticizing them of not trying. They hustled on the recruiting trail, they were just lousy coaches with a lousy program. Who would commit to them over OSU, Utah, ASU, or even Boise or Fresno at that time?

 

[CougEd]

Yea, looking back at '08 now is even more amazing. That staff had 3 guys committed in like November. That's unheard of. I wonder if there was a school in the entire country this year that didn't have 3 guys by August 1st.

Doba's & Wulff's staffs failed at recruiting for very different reasons. The thing with Wulff & his staff, I will never criticizing them of not trying. They hustled on the recruiting trail, they were just lousy coaches with a lousy program. Who would commit to them over OSU, Utah, ASU, or even Boise or Fresno at that time?

Kids who didn't have Pac 12 offers. The answer was right in front of Moos, Sterk and Rawlins. Price had cred when it came to WSU. That was your answer. He was the king of Poop Island, he knew how to strip it down and win five years later.

You don't hire a coach who has a limited coaching tree to go toe to toe with Pete Carroll, Jeff Tedford and others who were in the conference.

They made three mistakes in a row. The first was letting Price sniff around because of really small stuff he and his staff were not getting. Second, they hired Bill Doba. Then they fixed that problem with Paul Wulff. They need to have a big personality in Pullman.

Look at Dick Bennett. While he was a crusty old guy, that was his big personality. Jim Walden. Mike Price. Mike Leach. Doba and Wulff were the wrong guys at the wrong time.

 

[Loyal Coug]

Yarno was here during the Price and Doba eras. Also the Doba era recruiting on paper was very similar to Leach if you throw out 2003 i.e. #25 #52 #45 and #62. Doba's "poor recruiting" is a myth that CougEd and the Wulff apologists trot out. Only Steve and Roberson was here during the douche bag era, as I recall, when recruiting utterly sucked. Can you really blame them.for poor recruiting to a dumpster fire? So guess what, CougEd premise is full of horshit! Leach hasn't demonstrated that he and his staff can recruit well to Pullman, and there is is little evidence that the former Cougs were crap recruiters, when not chained to the Wulff millstone.

Actually, Socal, as I recall the Wulff apologists included Bill Moos who trotted out stats of how few D-1 offers most of our team had as a way of excusing our 1 and 2 win seasons under Wulff. If you want to argue that fact I will google it and prove it. There is your evidence.

So maybe Doba's Coug-heavy staff wasn't that great.

And if you think CML "hasn't demonstrated" that he can recruit well to Pullman then you must not read the Sunday papers after our games.

I'm done with this stupid thread

 

[Cougsocal]

There is validity to your point.

However, when you take the number of OLs Leach does, all of which are two or three star, combined with a few nobodies like Cracraft and Sweet and guys from the islands that no one has really evaluated, it doesn't help your recruiting ranking. The four star skill guys have an undue impact on the rankings.

Agree 100%. Leach & co has done an excellent job evaluating talent. Ultimately, that is what matters. There are 5 star busts(Sparks/Shavies/Sanders) and 2 star studs (Falk). Recruiting, like the draft, is not a hard science that is why evaluation is so important. But, by and large, the percentage of 4 and 5 star studs is far higher than 2 star studs. There is no evidence that Leach & co. has made greater inroads into the signing the 4 and 5 star guys than Doba & co, including the former Cougs. CougEd is just flat wrong on that. There is evidence that he has signed more 3-4 star guys than douche bag, but douche had us battling Big Sky schools for recruits. There solid evidence, ignored by CougEd, that Leach & co. is kicking Walden, Erickson, Price, Doba and Wulff's butts on the talent evaluation, techincal and the X and Os fronts. Mike Leach beat USC and took Big Sky talent to a bowl, and he resurrected a program that was a pube away from being Oregon State revisited- enough said.

 

[Fab5Coug]

Yarno was here during the Price and Doba eras. Also the Doba era recruiting on paper was very similar to Leach if you throw out 2003 i.e. #25 #52 #45 and #62. Doba's "poor recruiting" is a myth that CougEd and the Wulff apologists trot out. Only Steve and Roberson was here during the douche bag era, as I recall, when recruiting utterly sucked. Can you really blame them.for poor recruiting to a dumpster fire? So guess what, CougEd premise is full of horshit! Leach hasn't demonstrated that he and his staff can recruit well to Pullman, and there is is little evidence that the former Cougs were crap recruiters, when not chained to the Wulff millstone.

I wonder what the adjusted rankings are if you remove the non qualifiers. That #25 class in '04 wasn't all that impressive after you took Estes, Diedrichs & Willis out.

I mean, any coach could go out and have a top 25 class if they just filled it with all the 4 star guys who would end up at a JUCO. Leach is actually enrolling the classes he's getting.

 

[Loyal Coug]

Agree 100%. Leach & co has done an excellent job evaluating talent. Ultimately, that is what matters. There are 5 star busts(Sparks/Shavies/Sanders) and 2 star studs (Falk). Recruiting, like the draft, is not a hard science that is why evaluation is so important. But, by and large, the percentage of 4 and 5 star studs is far higher than 2 star studs. There is no evidence that Leach & co. has made greater inroads into the signing the 4 and 5 star guys than Doba & co, including the former Cougs. CougEd is just flat wrong on that. There is evidence that he has signed more 3-4 star guys than douche bag, but douche had us battling Big Sky schools for recruits. There solid evidence, ignored by CougEd, that Leach & co. is kicking Walden, Erickson, Price, Doba and Wulff's butts on the talent evaluation, techincal and the X and Os fronts. Mike Leach beat USC and took Big Sky talent to a bowl, and he resurrected a program that was a pube away from being Oregon State revisited- enough said.

Stop it SoCal! Ed never said anything about 4 and 5 star guys! How can he be flat wrong about something that he never said?

WTH is wrong with you - can you not read?

ED - why am I continuing to defend you? I am losing my mind!

 

[CougEd]

Stop it SoCal! Ed never said anything about 4 and 5 star guys! How can he be flat wrong about something that he never said?

WTH is wrong with you - can you not read?

ED - why am I continuing to defend you? I am losing my mind!

\

You see social injustice : ) . Also, not my jeep. My plates say Wulff 1

 

[CougEd]

Leach and Co. selling of Pullman has not resulted in a single recruiting class that has broken the top 50, according to rivals. How do you reconcile that with what you are saying? It tells me that Leach and Co. can evaluate the hell out of 2 and 3 star talent, talent that is available by mere P-12 membership, but they haven't sold many blue chippers on Pullman. Price's pre Rose Bowl class was ranked 28 (#6 in conference), with 5, 4 and 5 star recruits with crap facilities and 1 bowl in 5 years. That is selling Pullman in my book. Great facilities, 3 bowls in 4 years and a #51 ( #11 in conference; Colorado #7, OSU #9) recruiting class says Mike Leach and co. are far better coaches (elite) than salesmen. What am I missing here?

In my ideal world you have coaches who can sell Pullman like Price & co but who can coach like Leach & co. The 2002 talent with Leach at the helm beats tOSU in Columbus and runs the table, I believe.

Socal...you sure are hung up on Rivals rankings. But I will use that as your measurement. First, Doba admitted not selling the right kid. He abandoned Prices's philosophy of going after the A- kid like Trufant, David, Coleman and went fo rthe A-listers. Swung, missed and now they were force to sell kids who weren't Pac 10 material.

2) The kids they sold that brought the score up were kids who didn't qualify- Estes, Dietrich, kids who were on campus for two years Harrison, Dillion, Brackenridge, and Myers, or holdovers from a previous class and get ranked twice in Eppelle, Dietrich etc. The ranking system were highly flawed and you don't help sustain a program when you three and four star kids that you are all excited about are gone in two years or never step foot on the campus.

3) It didn't take long to watch highlights at the Doba dinners and say "that looks nothing like the kids Price was bringing in despite the stars you read about.

4) If they were doing such a great job of selling WSU then why did the old man of teh staff need to go to Texas for midnight runs to pick up players?

That staff for coming off three ten win seasons and you look at the kids they sold to come to WSU it tells me what I need to know. And let me know who Rosie and Levy or even Ken Greene sold to come to WSU?

 

[fingerdisco]

Socal...you sure are hung up on Rivals rankings. But I will use that as your measurement. First, Doba admitted not selling the right kid. He abandoned Prices's philosophy of going after the A- kid like Trufant, David, Coleman and went fo rthe A-listers. Swung, missed and now they were force to sell kids who weren't Pac 10 material.

2) The kids they sold that brought the score up were kids who didn't qualify- Estes, Dietrich, kids who were on campus for two years Harrison, Dillion, Brackenridge, and Myers, or holdovers from a previous class and get ranked twice in Eppelle, Dietrich etc. The ranking system were highly flawed and you don't help sustain a program when you three and four star kids that you are all excited about are gone in two years or never step foot on the campus.

3) It didn't take long to watch highlights at the Doba dinners and say "that looks nothing like the kids Price was bringing in despite the stars you read about.

4) If they were doing such a great job of selling WSU then why did the old man of teh staff need to go to Texas for midnight runs to pick up players?

That staff for coming off three ten win seasons and you look at the kids they sold to come to WSU it tells me what I need to know. And let me know who Rosie and Levy or even Ken Greene sold to come to WSU?

My only question is: what's the difference between an A- kid and an A-lister?

 

[Fab5Coug]

Doba's classes were definitely top heavy.

'03: Byrd, Abdullah, Aaron Johnson, Brink, Ropati, Hill
'04: Harrison, Brackenridge, Jed Collins, Bumpus and...whole lot of nothing.
'05: Gibson, Ahmu, Alfred, Trent, Tardy, and...?
'06: Mattingly, Ivory, uhhhhhhh.
'07: Yeesh

You can't sustain a program with 4-5 contributors per class.

Now, look at Leach's classes...

'13: Mayle, McLennan, Pelleur, Dotson, Sorenson, Pippins, Cracraft, Wicks, O'Connell, Ekuale, Morrow, Madison, Falk, Powell
'14: Luvu, Dillard, Mata'afa
'15: Luani, Martin, Dale, Hillinski, Molton, Williams, Sweet, Tago, Oguayo
'16: Johnson-Mack, Mauigoa, Renard Bell, Patmon, Woods, Strong, Moore, Taylor, McBroom

Heck, even his '12 class that he had to throw together quickly: Vaeao, Barber, Marks, Allison, Lewis, Middleton, Salmonson, Gauta

With the exception of what looks like a hiccup in 2014, every one of those classes had more contributors than any of Doba's. Doba's staff could land some stars (Harrison, Bumpus, Gibson, Brink), but it lacked any kind of depth. So yes, Doba was on par with the 4 stars, but where were the Dotsons, the Sorensons, the Cracrafts, the Luvus, the Moltons.

Doba's classes were also dangerously trending in the wrong direction.