Iowa State should be WSU's role model

[COCoug]

Whenever we are going through these coaching changes, and wondering what the realistic ceiling is for WSU athletics, we need to look at ISU. They are clearly one of our peers- the first land grant school in the nation, remote from any major urban center in the rural midwest, playing in a power 5 conference. Like us their alumni and donors are heavily based in agriculture- no law or medical school. This year they were pretty much our equal in football (ended up in the same bowl and lost by 2), won the Big 12 Mens BBall Tournament, finished second in the Big 12 Woman's Tournament, on their way to the NCAA wrestling tournament, with several other very respectable non-revenue programs sprinkled in. Like us they are pretty lean, with just 16 varsity sports (Stanford has 37). No men's soccer (but they do have wrestling), no women's lacrosse or sand volleyball (but they do have gymnastics). When the brackets come out tomorrow, there will not be too many schools with teams in both tournaments who also had a football team in a bowl game....

Just something to think about while waiting for football and women's soccer to start. And realistically, as an athletic department they are SO FAR ahead of Nebraska it isn't even a conversation (for anyone living in the present and not in the late 1980's), so they are a blueprint for Moos to shoot for too.

 

[79COUG]

Excellent points all. I noticed their men's BB team has won 4 of the last 6 Big 12 tournament titles as well.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Whenever we are going through these coaching changes, and wondering what the realistic ceiling is for WSU athletics, we need to look at ISU. They are clearly one of our peers- the first land grant school in the nation, remote from any major urban center in the rural midwest, playing in a power 5 conference. Like us their alumni and donors are heavily based in agriculture- no law or medical school. This year they were pretty much our equal in football (ended up in the same bowl and lost by 2), won the Big 12 Mens BBall Tournament, finished second in the Big 12 Woman's Tournament, on their way to the NCAA wrestling tournament, with several other very respectable non-revenue programs sprinkled in. Like us they are pretty lean, with just 16 varsity sports (Stanford has 37). No men's soccer (but they do have wrestling), no women's lacrosse or sand volleyball (but they do have gymnastics). When the brackets come out tomorrow, there will not be too many schools with teams in both tournaments who also had a football team in a bowl game....

Just something to think about while waiting for football and women's soccer to start. And realistically, as an athletic department they are SO FAR ahead of Nebraska it isn't even a conversation (for anyone living in the present and not in the late 1980's), so they are a blueprint for Moos to shoot for too.

I get what you are saying and Iowa State has done an excellent job of nurturing a rabid fan base. A key difference between WSU fans and ISU fans is that if you ask a WSU fan if they are going to make it to a game, you will start hearing excuses about why we can't make it. If you look at the core group of die hard ISU fans, they don't think that way. They aren't as remote as WSU and that's a factor, but ISU fans actively seek to prove that they are the most dedicated fans in college sports. Coug fans look for ways to prove that nobody has it worse than us.

As far as modeling ourselves after ISU.......you might want to take a deeper dive into ISU football before you get too pumped about it. They have NEVER, EVER, EVER won 10 games in a single season. They've only been ranked in the final AP Top 25 twice in their school history. They fired the only coach that had ever been able to get them to bowl games because it had become obvious that he was typically going to get around 7 wins in any given year with a down year every once in a while and that was determined to be not good enough. In the next 10 seasons, they failed to reach 7 wins nine times and the one season they reached the target....they finished 6-6 and had to win the bowl game to get to 7 wins. Jim Walden won 46% of his games in Pullman (not including ties) but he only won 33% of his games in Ames. Matt Campbell is doing a good job there and they might be starting to become relevant (if he doesn't leave for greener pastures) but Washington State University is a football power when compared to Iowa State.

We need to emulate their ability to cultivate dedicated fans.....but not their athletic success. For them, the Alamo Bowl was the greatest bowl game in their school's history. For us.....it was a letdown.

 

[BiggsCoug]

If you dont have the funds to build Taj Mahal facilities you have to spend your funds on coaching. Specifically the ability to hire strong coaches consecutively.

 

[Observer11]

But but both got rid of Walden and both are finding success with him far away from the programs... imagine that... maybe the man sold people a whole lot of horesh*t and when they woke up and started to compete and build and abandoned a narcissistic blowhard bulsh*tter philosophy the learned that in order to win you must focus on substance over sweet talk’n.

FISH ON!!!

 

[Cougatron]

FISH ON!!!

Ah so you’ve finally come to accept that you are a troll. Nice.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolling_(fishing)

 

[Observer11]

Ah so you’ve finally come to accept that you are a troll. Nice.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolling_(fishing)

I've trolled you for months - that's no secret. Yet you keep taking the bait.

Kudos on toning it down to less than a 14 paragraph reply.

Now about Bill Moos and his non-CAF donation history....

 

[cr8zyncalif]

ISU has done a number of things well, and the comparison in terms of rural college town, land grant school, etc, are inevitable and not unreasonable. They also have a great deal of experience in doing more with less.

 

[79COUG]

I was impressed with their fan base at the Alamo Bowl.

 

[taf88]

I was impressed with their fan base at the Alamo Bowl.

They were everywhere in San Antonio.

 

[COCoug]

That is an interesting stat that they have never had a 10 win season in football. One factor may be that their rival game (Iowa) is a non-conference matchup against the Big10, and a pretty tough way to start each season. Like WSU, they lack the depth to make it through the conference season year in and year out, but every season one of the Big 12 elite comes wandering into Ames on a Friday or Saturday night and either gets their hat handed to them or barely escapes with their lives. While they might not have put together a massive six 10-win seasons over the past 125 years, there were also seasons not too long ago when we were flirting with 10 losses and they would have cleaned our clock.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

That is an interesting stat that they have never had a 10 win season in football. One factor may be that their rival game (Iowa) is a non-conference matchup against the Big10, and a pretty tough way to start each season. Like WSU, they lack the depth to make it through the conference season year in and year out, but every season one of the Big 12 elite comes wandering into Ames on a Friday or Saturday night and either gets their hat handed to them or barely escapes with their lives. While they might not have put together a massive six 10-win seasons over the past 125 years, there were also seasons not too long ago when we were flirting with 10 losses and they would have cleaned our clock.

They do suffer from being caught right between Big 8 and Big 10 country back in the day. Limited elite athletes in the area to start with and football powers all around to snipe away any good ones that come along. Below is a link to the google street view of the "scenic views" west of Ames Iowa. The area around Pullman is a plethora of scenic vistas in comparison.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.023...w=203&h=100&yaw=357.9508&pitch=0&thumbfov=100

A couple criticisms of Iowa State administration in particular.

1) What kind of place hires Jim Walden from WSU and really thinks he's going to be "great"? While I appreciate what Walden did at WSU from 1981 to 1984 and think that some give him too much grief, how in the hell did they delude themselves into thinking that a coach who had bookended his career at WSU with a string of losing seasons was suddenly going to be the answer in Ames? I know Walden talks a good game, but come on!

2) When they finally found a coach in McCarney who wasn't going to bolt because he went 9-3, they forced him out six years later when they decided that finishing with 7 wins in 4 out of 6 seasons wasn't good enough.

The current administration may be better than the groups that made those decisions, but Iowa State has a feeble history in football because they made those decisions in particular.

 

[M-I-Coug]

One thing they don't have is......the logo.

Only two campuses (that I know of) where the school logo dominates the culture and the town. Washington State and Clemson.

Iowa State will always be a Cyclone.

 

[BiggsCoug]

I was impressed with their fan base at the Alamo Bowl.

They traveled well.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

One thing they don't have is......the logo.

Only two campuses (that I know of) where the school logo dominates the culture and the town. Washington State and Clemson.

Iowa State will always be a Cyclone.

I'd throw Manhattan, Kansas on the list but they are clearly a step below Pullman and WSU in terms of total immersion.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

They were everywhere in San Antonio.

If you watched the Big 12 basketball tournament this weekend, they called the Sprint Center "Hilton South". They brought so many fans to Kansas City that Bill Self (head coach of KU) complained that they were gaming the ticket market.

 

[Observer11]

They do suffer from being caught right between Big 8 and Big 10 country back in the day. Limited elite athletes in the area to start with and football powers all around to snipe away any good ones that come along. Below is a link to the google street view of the "scenic views" west of Ames Iowa. The area around Pullman is a plethora of scenic vistas in comparison.

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0234886,-93.7615973,3a,75y,354.23h,74.78t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1stJQALGU4K4Z7w15fBsQ9ng!2e0!6s//geo1.ggpht.com/cbk?panoid=tJQALGU4K4Z7w15fBsQ9ng&output=thumbnail&cb_client=maps_sv.tactile.gps&thumb=2&w=203&h=100&yaw=357.9508&pitch=0&thumbfov=100

A couple criticisms of Iowa State administration in particular.

1) What kind of place hires Jim Walden from WSU and really thinks he's going to be "great"? While I appreciate what Walden did at WSU from 1981 to 1984 and think that some give him too much grief, how in the hell did they delude themselves into thinking that a coach who had bookended his career at WSU with a string of losing seasons was suddenly going to be the answer in Ames? I know Walden talks a good game, but come on!

2) When they finally found a coach in McCarney who wasn't going to bolt because he went 9-3, they forced him out six years later when they decided that finishing with 7 wins in 4 out of 6 seasons wasn't good enough.

The current administration may be better than the groups that made those decisions, but Iowa State has a feeble history in football because they made those decisions in particular.

As per usual, you had to be there.

Walden took WSU to a bowl game when that meant something for the first time in 51 years! Plus he was pretty damned good at punking the much larger, more prestigious, nationally ranked rival.

His last season at WSU definitely sucked - but the four or five year run up to that, Walden was going toe to toe with the USCs and Washingtons and picking them off with as much regularity as anyone on the West Coast.

Plus his AD and President left - he was ready to move on and it was time for him to move on.

Monday morning quarterbacking based on his record therafter in Ames is just that - but when he was hired, Walden was as solid a candidate as anyone out there. Plus he had Big 8 roots and association with the legendary Bob Devaney at Nebraska. That was big at the time - Barry Alvarez, Warren Powers, lots of other Devaney assistants became head coaches during that phase.

Here's where tron goes to town on google....blah blah blah. He was 4 years old.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

As per usual, you had to be there.

Walden took WSU to a bowl game when that meant something for the first time in 51 years! Plus he was pretty damned good at punking the much larger, more prestigious, nationally ranked rival.

His last season at WSU definitely sucked - but the four or five year run up to that, Walden was going toe to toe with the USCs and Washingtons and picking them off with as much regularity as anyone on the West Coast.

Plus his AD and President left - he was ready to move on and it was time for him to move on.

Monday morning quarterbacking based on his record therafter in Ames is just that - but when he was hired, Walden was as solid a candidate as anyone out there. Plus he had Big 8 roots and association with the legendary Bob Devaney at Nebraska. That was big at the time - Barry Alvarez, Warren Powers, lots of other Devaney assistants became head coaches during that phase.

Here's where tron goes to town on google....blah blah blah. He was 4 years old.

Don't get me wrong.......I've always said that I appreciate the good things that Walden did for WSU. However, his slide at WSU wasn't a one year thing. The 1985 team was competitive, but if not for an upset over the mutts in the Apple Cup, it would have been considered a disaster. That 1986 team was just a wreck. I still don't see how we tied ASU that year after letting Cal drive its moped over us. Unfortunately, the blowout loss to UCLA sealed the deal and the team was never the same. I respect that Walden was a competitor, but to get hired by the Cyclones, he obviously told Iowa State that WSU was a backwater dump and that he shouldn't be held accountable for his team's performance. For that, I agree with Tron that Walden has always been about Jim Walden and I think the less that we hear from him....the better.

 

[Observer11]

Don't get me wrong.......I've always said that I appreciate the good things that Walden did for WSU. However, his slide at WSU wasn't a one year thing. The 1985 team was competitive, but if not for an upset over the mutts in the Apple Cup, it would have been considered a disaster. That 1986 team was just a wreck. I still don't see how we tied ASU that year after letting Cal drive its moped over us. Unfortunately, the blowout loss to UCLA sealed the deal and the team was never the same. I respect that Walden was a competitor, but to get hired by the Cyclones, he obviously told Iowa State that WSU was a backwater dump and that he shouldn't be held accountable for his team's performance. For that, I agree with Tron that Walden has always been about Jim Walden and I think the less that we hear from him....the better.

I did not realize you were involved in the interviewing process at Iowa State. That's some pretty wild conjecture on what Walden said to get hired.

Was Johnny Orr a good guy, too?

 

[Loyal Coug]

Don't get me wrong.......I've always said that I appreciate the good things that Walden did for WSU. However, his slide at WSU wasn't a one year thing. The 1985 team was competitive, but if not for an upset over the mutts in the Apple Cup, it would have been considered a disaster. That 1986 team was just a wreck. I still don't see how we tied ASU that year after letting Cal drive its moped over us. Unfortunately, the blowout loss to UCLA sealed the deal and the team was never the same. I respect that Walden was a competitor, but to get hired by the Cyclones, he obviously told Iowa State that WSU was a backwater dump and that he shouldn't be held accountable for his team's performance. For that, I agree with Tron that Walden has always been about Jim Walden and I think the less that we hear from him....the better.

I did not realize you were involved in the interviewing process at Iowa State. That's some pretty wild conjecture on what Walden said to get hired.
?

Yeah Flat - that's a little out there for you.

To be fair both ways, if you believe Wikipedia, the Iowa State coaching section is interesting. I did not know that Earle Bruce and Johnny Majors came from iowa State. Or that JW's predecessor was engulfed by scandal, causing maajor scholarship shortages. Or that Arizona offered Walden in 1989. JW's craziness in his last year is not very flattering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa_State_Cyclones_football

 

[Flatlandcoug]

I did not realize you were involved in the interviewing process at Iowa State. That's some pretty wild conjecture on what Walden said to get hired.

Was Johnny Orr a good guy, too?

I'm obviously theorizing there.......but I'm just trying to figure out why in the hell Iowa State would hire a guy who had just gone 7-14-1 in his last two seasons. I'm trying to be charitable to the Cyclones that Walden sold them a whopper of a tale about that.....because otherwise......they are just as incompetent as the hire suggested and the results that happened (a 33% winning percentage).

FWIW, if you've ever read Walden's book......he basically says that WSU was behind the times and wasn't willing to invest in facilities.....so there's that. I was obviously selling it up a bit, but I have no doubt that Walden was willing to throw WSU under the bus to land a new gig before he got canned.

 

[FnuLnu]

I'm obviously theorizing there.......but I'm just trying to figure out why in the hell Iowa State would hire a guy who had just gone 7-14-1 in his last two seasons. I'm trying to be charitable to the Cyclones that Walden sold them a whopper of a tale about that.....because otherwise......they are just as incompetent as the hire suggested and the results that happened (a 33% winning percentage).

FWIW, if you've ever read Walden's book......he basically says that WSU was behind the times and wasn't willing to invest in facilities.....so there's that. I was obviously selling it up a bit, but I have no doubt that Walden was willing to throw WSU under the bus to land a new gig before he got canned.

Can we say at least Iowa State picked up their game with WSU hires?

They recently had Paul Wulff as an assistant "volunteer" coach, paid him exactly what Paul Wulff's Power 5 coaching experience was worth (nothing), and then fired his gold bricking ass after half a season when he took a vacation to Europe mid-season and bragged about it to papers.

Volunteer Little League coaches dont even pull that.

 

[CougEd]

Don't get me wrong.......I've always said that I appreciate the good things that Walden did for WSU. However, his slide at WSU wasn't a one year thing. The 1985 team was competitive, but if not for an upset over the mutts in the Apple Cup, it would have been considered a disaster. That 1986 team was just a wreck. I still don't see how we tied ASU that year after letting Cal drive its moped over us. Unfortunately, the blowout loss to UCLA sealed the deal and the team was never the same. I respect that Walden was a competitor, but to get hired by the Cyclones, he obviously told Iowa State that WSU was a backwater dump and that he shouldn't be held accountable for his team's performance. For that, I agree with Tron that Walden has always been about Jim Walden and I think the less that we hear from him....the better.

Walden says the 1985 team was his worse coaching job ever. It was one of those seasons the loss to the ducks in the opener set the tone. If WSU had say Eastern or even San Jose State the season may have taken a different turn.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Walden says the 1985 team was his worse coaching job ever. It was one of those seasons the loss to the ducks in the opener set the tone. If WSU had say Eastern or even San Jose State the season may have taken a different turn.

I have no doubt that there are defensible reasons that the season went south.......but regardless of the reasons.....it did. Frankly, I think the WSU job wore Walden out and he just didn't a crap as much in 1985 as he did in 1981. It was definitely obvious in 1986 that it was time for a fresh start for both parties.

 

[CougEd]

I have no doubt that there are defensible reasons that the season went south.......but regardless of the reasons.....it did. Frankly, I think the WSU job wore Walden out and he just didn't a crap as much in 1985 as he did in 1981. It was definitely obvious in 1986 that it was time for a fresh start for both parties.

I think he realized it was time for someone else. I don't think coaches "don't care as much", I don't think it is in their nature. But I do think they realize when a message becomes stale and they aren't going to move the needle and maybe someone else will.

 

[Loyal Coug]

I think he realized it was time for someone else. I don't think coaches "don't care as much", I don't think it is in their nature. But I do think they realize when a message becomes stale and they aren't going to move the needle and maybe someone else will.

Unless their name is Ernie Kent. 'Ole!

 

[CougEd]

Unless their name is Ernie Kent. 'Ole!

You can say a lot of things about Ernie including being savvy about his money . For whatever reason Moos extended him and we have a pretty buyout . People who care need to step up and help fund the buyout .

 

[FnuLnu]

FWIW, if you've ever read Walden's book.......

Jim Walden's book isnt bad.
Written during 2004 early Doba era before he became de facto AD.

Has some inside stuff (like who were the finalists for Sherill and Powers openings). And you can definitely tell he isnt a Mike Price guy.

 

[CougEd]

Unless their name is Ernie Kent. 'Ole!

Don’t forget defacto hiring committee and defacto President ... you know the people who actually made the decision .

 

[PeteTheChop]

to get hired by the Cyclones, Walden obviously told Iowa State that WSU was a backwater dump and that he shouldn't be held accountable for his team's performance.

This is the first time I've ever heard anything like this.

CJW has always come across as someone very respectful toward WSU and his former players.

 

[PeteTheChop]

They recently had Paul Wulff as an assistant "volunteer" coach ... and then fired his gold bricking ass after half a season when he took a vacation to Europe mid-season and bragged about it to papers.

FnuLnu, an article in Iowa's largest newspaper from 11/2/15 tells a different story.

https://www.desmoinesregister.com/s...ff-off-eventful-start-isu-volunteer/75054202/

Basically, CPW stepped in as a favor to Todd Sturdy after ISU offensive Mark Mangino got mad at mid-season and promptly quit.

Per the article:

Wulff was coaching from the press box in Iowa State’s 24-0 win over Texas.

“He was excellent in the box Saturday night and feeding down information of what was taking place, as well as keeping Todd on track with down and distance and hash and so forth,” Cyclones coach Paul Rhoads said.

“(Coach Wulff) is on his way to London with his family. He had a prearranged trip, a birthday celebration. I knew that going into that. So, he left today and he’ll be back next week.”

Rhoads said he’ll be happy to have Wulff back from his trip.

“We’ll miss him this week, for sure,” Rhoads said. “We grinded him for 48 hours before he got out of here, though.”

Not sure it's entirely fair to criticize a man's who's volunteering for putting his family first.

 

[FnuLnu]

FnuLnu, an article in Iowa's largest newspaper from 11/2/15 tells a different story.

https://www.desmoinesregister.com/s...ff-off-eventful-start-isu-volunteer/75054202/

Basically, CPW stepped in as a favor to Todd Sturdy after ISU offensive Mark Mangino got mad at mid-season and promptly quit.

Per the article:

Wulff was coaching from the press box in Iowa State’s 24-0 win over Texas.

“He was excellent in the box Saturday night and feeding down information of what was taking place, as well as keeping Todd on track with down and distance and hash and so forth,” Cyclones coach Paul Rhoads said.

“(Coach Wulff) is on his way to London with his family. He had a prearranged trip, a birthday celebration. I knew that going into that. So, he left today and he’ll be back next week.”

Rhoads said he’ll be happy to have Wulff back from his trip.

“We’ll miss him this week, for sure,” Rhoads said. “We grinded him for 48 hours before he got out of here, though.”

Not sure it's entirely fair to criticize a man's who's volunteering for putting his family first.

Isnt Wulff putting his volunteer Iowa State tenure on his coaching resume?
And wasnt this an opportunity to rehabilitate his career?
And didnt the whole staff get canned at the end of the season?
If you are the AD, not wanting to foot buyouts for a staff and the best this staff can do in a crisis is offer an opportunity to man with a 6-40 record in FBS who is so unfazed, he goes on vacation and doesnt have enough common sense either to not go or have a cover story?

What if a volunteer coach for Ernie Kent or Ken Bone did this?

 

[Flatlandcoug]

This is the first time I've ever heard anything like this.

CJW has always come across as someone very respectful toward WSU and his former players.

I didn't say that he trashed his players.

I said that I have no doubt that he pointed out WSU's location and facilities and used that as his excuse for the team regressing in 1985 and 1986. I have no doubt that he told Iowa State that WSU wasn't willing to invest in the program to help build it up and that he would be able to be more successful if he had that type of support. To be fair, he wasn't all that wrong. Heck, in 2002, Price was still doing the same song and dance when he talked about how great it was to be at Alabama.

 

[BiggsCoug]

Can we say at least Iowa State picked up their game with WSU hires?

They recently had Paul Wulff as an assistant "volunteer" coach, paid him exactly what Paul Wulff's Power 5 coaching experience was worth (nothing), and then fired his gold bricking ass after half a season when he took a vacation to Europe mid-season and bragged about it to papers.

Volunteer Little League coaches dont even pull that.

He did what???