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Might be some fallout for Minnesota's coach....

Reading between the lines, it almost looks as if Minnesota's coach helped instigate this.

http://www.espn.com/college-footbal...ach-tracy-claeys-speaks-first-players-boycott

As badly as they've mucked the thing up so far, it wouldn't surprise me to see them fire him right after the bowl game. To me, if they have a problem with it, they should deal with it now. Waiting just makes them look duplicitous, a major reason why the team was so pissed about the suspensions in the first place. If they fire him, there will be mayhem and I'm not sure that they are ready for that. Again, they've bungled it so badly that WSU's handling of Barber looks saintly in comparison, so who knows.
 
As badly as they've mucked the thing up so far, it wouldn't surprise me to see them fire him right after the bowl game. To me, if they have a problem with it, they should deal with it now. Waiting just makes them look duplicitous, a major reason why the team was so pissed about the suspensions in the first place. If they fire him, there will be mayhem and I'm not sure that they are ready for that. Again, they've bungled it so badly that WSU's handling of Barber looks saintly in comparison, so who knows.
Gotta wait until after the bowl game to fire him. The team may pull another boycott if they tried to fire him before the bowl. Obviously, that would be a huge disaster.
 
As badly as they've mucked the thing up so far, it wouldn't surprise me to see them fire him right after the bowl game. To me, if they have a problem with it, they should deal with it now. Waiting just makes them look duplicitous, a major reason why the team was so pissed about the suspensions in the first place. If they fire him, there will be mayhem and I'm not sure that they are ready for that. Again, they've bungled it so badly that WSU's handling of Barber looks saintly in comparison, so who knows.

I'm not sure why this topic fascinates me so much. But if I had to make the decision for Minnesota I think I would have to fire him.

That decision wouldn't be made because of anything on the field, or morals, or anything like that.

Simply that I have become convinced that college football is a house of cards as it were.

Only it doesn't seem like the players and even the coaches understand that. As nearly as I can gather they all seem to think that because they see stadiums with a lot of people in seats, and games are televised, that some gigantic amount of money is being made they aren't given any of.

You kind of saw something similar occur with Missouri. The context and driving force behind it was a bit different though.

But if it ever gets to the point where the slightest possibility of a "strike" exists for these games...

Basically this already loses money for a lot of schools. Do the players and coaches really think it is something like a union going on strike?

I think all it takes is for one school somewhere to have something like this happen. A game is forfeited during the year due to something like this. Then a whole lot of schools get the heebie jeebies and start thinking really hard about the whole thing.

So if there is the slightest chance this guy approved of this action, or was anything other than 100% opposed to it, he goes.

The possible fallout of having a losing season in perpetuity or something pales in comparison to the headaches of having players think that declining to play a scheduled game is a valid negotiating tactic.

If this really were a moneymaking thing for the schools involved, maybe. But it isn't. For most of them not called Alabama, Ohio State, Michigan, Southern Cal, and the other usual suspects.
 
I'm not sure why this topic fascinates me so much. But if I had to make the decision for Minnesota I think I would have to fire him.

That decision wouldn't be made because of anything on the field, or morals, or anything like that.

Simply that I have become convinced that college football is a house of cards as it were.

Only it doesn't seem like the players and even the coaches understand that. As nearly as I can gather they all seem to think that because they see stadiums with a lot of people in seats, and games are televised, that some gigantic amount of money is being made they aren't given any of.

You kind of saw something similar occur with Missouri. The context and driving force behind it was a bit different though.

But if it ever gets to the point where the slightest possibility of a "strike" exists for these games...

Basically this already loses money for a lot of schools. Do the players and coaches really think it is something like a union going on strike?

I think all it takes is for one school somewhere to have something like this happen. A game is forfeited during the year due to something like this. Then a whole lot of schools get the heebie jeebies and start thinking really hard about the whole thing.

So if there is the slightest chance this guy approved of this action, or was anything other than 100% opposed to it, he goes.

The possible fallout of having a losing season in perpetuity or something pales in comparison to the headaches of having players think that declining to play a scheduled game is a valid negotiating tactic.

If this really were a moneymaking thing for the schools involved, maybe. But it isn't. For most of them not called Alabama, Ohio State, Michigan, Southern Cal, and the other usual suspects.
The exact second that I see WSU trying to form, in any way, a union-like group... If I see WSU looking to "go on strike" or forfeit or whatever... If it's something that the coaches, the students, the team are all behind, that would be a different scenario but if it's something like what has happened in Minn. happens at WSU... I will be gone as a fan. For whatever that's worth. I'm just one person. But one less CAF member.

Too close to NFL and I'm no fan of that organization... Stopped watching, like many others, years ago. Bunch of spoiled brats, most of the time. At least the ones with mics in front of them...
 
Gotta wait until after the bowl game to fire him. The team may pull another boycott if they tried to fire him before the bowl. Obviously, that would be a huge disaster.

That's what makes this such a mess. If they fire him after the bowl game, I would expect a bunch of players to transfer away in anger and I wouldn't be surprised if their program was torpedoed for the better part of a decade. Of course, given that this is the second time in two years that Gopher football players were accused of sexual assault, you could argue that they deserve it at this point. In case you haven't seen:

This wasn't their first rodeo (Oct 2015 sexual assault article)
 
That's what makes this such a mess. If they fire him after the bowl game, I would expect a bunch of players to transfer away in anger and I wouldn't be surprised if their program was torpedoed for the better part of a decade. Of course, given that this is the second time in two years that Gopher football players were accused of sexual assault, you could argue that they deserve it at this point. In case you haven't seen:

This wasn't their first rodeo (Oct 2015 sexual assault article)
From the UM Director of EOAA in 2015: "...demonstrates a concerning pattern of football player conduct that we believe requires responsive action." "...she and other administrators proposed that the football team get special training on sexual harassment and assault, but she did not know if that training had taken place."

It would appear their "responsive action" and any training was either absent or ineffective.

Also this little nugget at the end, which suggests this has been a repeated issue for almost a decade:
in 2007, a defensive end and two cornerbacks "were dismissed from the team after a criminal complaint was made public. Prosecutors charged [one] with sexually assaulting and 18-year old woman who was too drunk to give consent, introducing a cellphone video as evidence. [He] was acquitted of rape but convicted of fourth-degree criminal sexual conduct. [Three other players] also had sex with the woman that night, but were not charged."
 
From the UM Director of EOAA in 2015: "...demonstrates a concerning pattern of football player conduct that we believe requires responsive action." "...she and other administrators proposed that the football team get special training on sexual harassment and assault, but she did not know if that training had taken place."

It would appear their "responsive action" and any training was either absent or ineffective.

Also this little nugget at the end, which suggests this has been a repeated issue for almost a decade:
in 2007, a defensive end and two cornerbacks "were dismissed from the team after a criminal complaint was made public. Prosecutors charged [one] with sexually assaulting and 18-year old woman who was too drunk to give consent, introducing a cellphone video as evidence. [He] was acquitted of rape but convicted of fourth-degree criminal sexual conduct. [Three other players] also had sex with the woman that night, but were not charged."

Gawd, I don't think I've ever wanted to hang 70 on a team more in my life, and that includes Apple Cups.
 
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I too would fire the coach if he was my employee. I'd also argue, his behavior is probably a for cause firing.

He has a responsibility to mentor these kids and support the university. Title ix is a big deal and the university needs to have a 'no tolerance' attitude when it comes to these types of situations. It was not his decision to suspend these kids. He undermined his bosses with his comments. He's gone, IMO. They probably will wait until after signing day -- maybe they won't -- but I'd fire him.

You can tell Leach was befuddled by all this non-sense.
 
That's what makes this such a mess. If they fire him after the bowl game, I would expect a bunch of players to transfer away in anger and I wouldn't be surprised if their program was torpedoed for the better part of a decade. Of course, given that this is the second time in two years that Gopher football players were accused of sexual assault, you could argue that they deserve it at this point. In case you haven't seen:

This wasn't their first rodeo (Oct 2015 sexual assault article)
It's gotta be a Minnesota thing, with shorter days and colder nights - didn't the Vikings have a sex scandal a decade ago with hookers and blow, etc?
 
From the UM Director of EOAA in 2015: "...demonstrates a concerning pattern of football player conduct that we believe requires responsive action." "...she and other administrators proposed that the football team get special training on sexual harassment and assault, but she did not know if that training had taken place."

It would appear their "responsive action" and any training was either absent or ineffective.

Also this little nugget at the end, which suggests this has been a repeated issue for almost a decade:
in 2007, a defensive end and two cornerbacks "were dismissed from the team after a criminal complaint was made public. Prosecutors charged [one] with sexually assaulting and 18-year old woman who was too drunk to give consent, introducing a cellphone video as evidence. [He] was acquitted of rape but convicted of fourth-degree criminal sexual conduct. [Three other players] also had sex with the woman that night, but were not charged."

HOLY ****ING SHIT!?!?

How is this not the same as the Baylor situation, in essence? There is a pattern and history of sexual assault at the school that continues to be seemingly ignored.
 
I too would fire the coach if he was my employee. I'd also argue, his behavior is probably a for cause firing.

He has a responsibility to mentor these kids and support the university. Title ix is a big deal and the university needs to have a 'no tolerance' attitude when it comes to these types of situations. It was not his decision to suspend these kids. He undermined his bosses with his comments. He's gone, IMO. They probably will wait until after signing day -- maybe they won't -- but I'd fire him.

You can tell Leach was befuddled by all this non-sense.
I agree that he is likely gone. I would make the case that they would do well to terminate him after the Holiday Bowl and not wait for NLI day. This embarrassment cannot be helping their recruiting efforts. Pay him off. His dismissal payment is minimal in comparison to others. Five hundred thousand if my memory is correct. A for cause dismissal with no payment would just keep the problem in the media, reminding the alumni of the issue. If their AD has any sense, he must have some one lined up already or at least a list of potential replacements. Send him on his way and put this shameful episode behind.
 
I agree that he is likely gone. I would make the case that they would do well to terminate him after the Holiday Bowl and not wait for NLI day. This embarrassment cannot be helping their recruiting efforts. Pay him off. His dismissal payment is minimal in comparison to others. Five hundred thousand if my memory is correct. A for cause dismissal with no payment would just keep the problem in the media, reminding the alumni of the issue. If their AD has any sense, he must have some one lined up already or at least a list of potential replacements. Send him on his way and put this shameful episode behind.

Kind of interesting that the previous coach, Jerry? Kill, who was there last year when the previous scandal broke, resigned soon after for health reasons. I guess he recovered as he just got hired by Rutgers as their OC. So this new coach, who was on staff and was promoted, was there last year and now here we go again. I also read the police report. The girl was fine with taking on the first two guys (at once and then in order), but didn't want the next few or 10 or whatever. Geezus - send your daughters to the UM to learn about life. Just sad and sick all the way around.
 
Kind of interesting that the previous coach, Jerry? Kill, who was there last year when the previous scandal broke, resigned soon after for health reasons. I guess he recovered as he just got hired by Rutgers as their OC. So this new coach, who was on staff and was promoted, was there last year and now here we go again. I also read the police report. The girl was fine with taking on the first two guys (at once and then in order), but didn't want the next few or 10 or whatever. Geezus - send your daughters to the UM to learn about life. Just sad and sick all the way around.
Kill has developed epilepsy and had a couple of seizures on the sidelines. He stepped away from the pressure to deal with that for awhile and then took a position coaching job somewhere. Iowa? Apparently the medical issue is sufficiently controlled that he can assume more responsibility. I don't think that the sexual assault cases had much to do, if anything, with his decision to step down. Couldn't have helped though in that the extra stress would have been unwelcome.

You mentioned his new position at Rutgers. As we can remember, Rutgers was undergoing their own off-field misadventures prior to their game with us. I assume that Ash is busy introducing a new culture there. Kill's introduction as a senior member of the staff is interesting in that regard considering that he showed little to no leadership culture-wise while at Minnesota. At least not that I am aware of. From what little I know it looks as if he just ignored the ongoing problem and hoped that someone else would clean it up or that it would just go away.

Lots of twists and turns and incidental ramifications with the incident, resulting in every reaction from disgust to merely head shaking on my part.

I did not get the impression that her acceptance of the first two guys was truly consensual. I got the impression that it was more of a "Well, these two are not going to take no for an answer so I will just get it over with in order to be allowed to leave." If the investigated police officials interpreted that as implied consent then O.K. but I don't. I can see however why the local prosecutor felt that it would be nearly impossible to get a jury beyond the reasonable doubt line and decided not to take it to trial.

You are right again regarding sending a daughter to that school. Baylor's matriculation applications dropped like a rock after their situation became clear, especially with regard to females. Can no longer recall the exact numbers but it was huge.

Minnesota's stance will undoubtedly be to can some people, focus on the problem and hope that the old adage "Time heals all wounds." comes to fruition.

The team's announcement after ending the boycott that they were firmly opposed to sexual assault and degrading behavior towards women was, to me, clueless and tone deaf. Hypocritical, disingenuous and lacking any credibility. Listening to the announcement left me with the opinion that they still do not understand what they were supporting or doing.

Problems with CSBs are something that all Cougs are now aware of. But, good Lord, you have to pick your fights carefully. Protesting over a lack of due process is fine and understandable but when the underlying case is a vomit inducing coerced gang bang, if not multiple rape, your argument becomes morally repugnant and just misguided, to put it mildly. The repulsiveness of the underlying incident has eliminated most, if not all, sympathy for their professed aim.
 
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I did not get the impression that her acceptance of the first two guys was truly consensual. I got the impression that it was more of a "Well, these two are not going to take no for an answer so I will just get it over with in order to be allowed to leave." If the investigated police officials interpreted that as implied consent then O.K. but I don't. I can see however why the local prosecutor felt that it would be nearly impossible to get a jury beyond the reasonable doubt line and decided not to take it to trial.
I agree, but also understand the prosecutor's position. The victim says in her testimony that, essentially, 'I'll just make them finish quickly so I can leave'. Then (apparently) in the video, she says something like 'this is hard, I have to get rid of my gum'. Those two things alone would make it pretty easy for a defense attorney to make at least one jury member to believe that she was an active participant, and that she made a decision to be so. Either one of those things means it's no longer sexual assault.

But, inviting friends over to line up was (as one of the accused stated) "not cool".
 
I agree, but also understand the prosecutor's position. The victim says in her testimony that, essentially, 'I'll just make them finish quickly so I can leave'. Then (apparently) in the video, she says something like 'this is hard, I have to get rid of my gum'. Those two things alone would make it pretty easy for a defense attorney to make at least one jury member to believe that she was an active participant, and that she made a decision to be so. Either one of those things means it's no longer sexual assault.

But, inviting friends over to line up was (as one of the accused stated) "not cool".
i agree w/ what your saying here. legal issues aside (and i'm not totally indifferent to the challenges that a prosecutor can face in a case like this), i think we have a major problem in this country regarding young men's understanding of what constitutes consent.

there was a segment on "this american life" a while back that highlighted an outreach program for college students designed to address (for lack of a better term) sexual communication between young men and women on campus. i was utterly dumbfounded at some of the attitudes of the men being interviewed on the issue of consent. i don't remember details as it was a while ago, but it was along the lines of, "...so if a woman pushes you away and says no...?" "eh, she's just being playful..."

that's a real problem. i've already made this point in a different thread, but (again, legal issues aside), there was no part of the young lady's encounter with any of those men that was consensual. sex is not consensual if one of the participants is going along because of pressure or fear. and, while i'm completely willing to acknowledge that that pressure or fear operates on a pretty wide spectrum, and that it is obviously possible for a woman to feel some mild pressure and not really give off any signals that the guy could be expected to pick up on, under most circumstances, those signals should at least be clear enough for the young man to question whether she's on board w/ what's happening. the sheer volume of cases of acquaintance rape would seem to demand at least a small amount of that kind of caution.

i would be willing to bet that every single one of the guys in the um case, from beginning to end, considered what they were doing consensual at the time. there are apparently some involved who recognize in hindsight that it wasn't, but the fact that everyone involved just kept on going with no apparent second thoughts points to a problem with their understanding of the issue. and the fact that this is not an isolated incident points to a broader societal question (it does that for me at least).

i guess my point is that we are living in a society that has placed basically 100% of the burden of preventing rape on the victims (don't drink, don't go in there, don't talk to a guy you don't know w/o your friends around, etc, etc, etc) and none on the potential perpetrators. i'm not saying the ratio should be switched, but there needs to be a shared responsibility. as a society, we ought to be able to expect young men to tune in to the signals and act with at least a little caution or concern for the needs of the other person. i mean, in most circumstances, that doesn't even count as particularly kind or thoughtful. it's just basic human decency.

let's not forget that, according this woman's testimony, she initially stopped them from undressing her, and she said "no." even if she hadn't said "no," maybe the fact that she stopped me when i tried to undress her is a cue as to her general attitude. maybe the fact that she spent "a long time" in the bathroom to the point where i had to go tell her to come out gives me a signal that i should not proceed as though she's ready for sex with two strangers. perhaps it's ok and not at all strange for me, given these signals to her possible nervousness and the relatively extreme nature of the sex we are about to engage in to maybe ask her how she's feeling. maybe there's a way for me to try to confirm her willingness without a notarized contract. perhaps i should treat this person as a fellow human being and not as a hole in which to insert my penis.

in short (i know, too late), i get that the requirements for conviction can make this challenging for police and prosecutors, but (a) that's no reason not to challenge and perhaps improve the legal understanding of consent, and (b) there are more than just legal solutions available to us to solve problems like this. education and discussion may not be the end all be all, but it's at least a start.
 
That's what makes this such a mess. If they fire him after the bowl game, I would expect a bunch of players to transfer away in anger and I wouldn't be surprised if their program was torpedoed for the better part of a decade. Of course, given that this is the second time in two years that Gopher football players were accused of sexual assault, you could argue that they deserve it at this point. In case you haven't seen:

This wasn't their first rodeo (Oct 2015 sexual assault article)


Interesting excerpt:
This August, the U implemented a so-called “Yes means Yes” policy, that says sex is OK only if those involved offer “informed, freely and affirmatively communicated willingness to participate in sexual activity that is expressed by clear and unambiguous words or actions.” Without that, the activity falls under the U’s definition of sexual assault.

Based on that wording I am not sure that the female in the current case would be considered willing. This would seem to point a huge finger directly at why there was such a discrepancy between the EOAA findings and that of the police. We know the University has a lower hurdle as far as discipline than a court would, and this being the standard that needed to be met....hmm.
 
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Interesting excerpt:
This August, the U implemented a so-called “Yes means Yes” policy, that says sex is OK only if those involved offer “informed, freely and affirmatively communicated willingness to participate in sexual activity that is expressed by clear and unambiguous words or actions.” Without that, the activity falls under the U’s definition of sexual assault.

Based on that wording I am not sure that the female in the current case would be considered willing. This would seem to point a huge finger directly at why there was such a discrepancy between the EOAA findings and that of the police. We know the University has a lower hurdle as far as discipline than a court would, and this being the standard that needed to be met....hmm.
Need to have a signed consent form before having sex all you unmarried folks. I'm half-serious.
 
Need to have a signed consent form before having sex all you unmarried folks. I'm half-serious.

Sadly not really a bad idea. The case that sticks out to me was Sebastian Janakowski when he was at FSU. Got accused of date rape, then got off because he had a hidden camera....so not guilty of date rape, but guilty of being a creepy dude.
 
i agree w/ what your saying here. legal issues aside (and i'm not totally indifferent to the challenges that a prosecutor can face in a case like this), i think we have a major problem in this country regarding young men's understanding of what constitutes consent.

there was a segment on "this american life" a while back that highlighted an outreach program for college students designed to address (for lack of a better term) sexual communication between young men and women on campus. i was utterly dumbfounded at some of the attitudes of the men being interviewed on the issue of consent. i don't remember details as it was a while ago, but it was along the lines of, "...so if a woman pushes you away and says no...?" "eh, she's just being playful..."

that's a real problem. i've already made this point in a different thread, but (again, legal issues aside), there was no part of the young lady's encounter with any of those men that was consensual. sex is not consensual if one of the participants is going along because of pressure or fear. and, while i'm completely willing to acknowledge that that pressure or fear operates on a pretty wide spectrum, and that it is obviously possible for a woman to feel some mild pressure and not really give off any signals that the guy could be expected to pick up on, under most circumstances, those signals should at least be clear enough for the young man to question whether she's on board w/ what's happening. the sheer volume of cases of acquaintance rape would seem to demand at least a small amount of that kind of caution.

i would be willing to bet that every single one of the guys in the um case, from beginning to end, considered what they were doing consensual at the time. there are apparently some involved who recognize in hindsight that it wasn't, but the fact that everyone involved just kept on going with no apparent second thoughts points to a problem with their understanding of the issue. and the fact that this is not an isolated incident points to a broader societal question (it does that for me at least).

i guess my point is that we are living in a society that has placed basically 100% of the burden of preventing rape on the victims (don't drink, don't go in there, don't talk to a guy you don't know w/o your friends around, etc, etc, etc) and none on the potential perpetrators. i'm not saying the ratio should be switched, but there needs to be a shared responsibility. as a society, we ought to be able to expect young men to tune in to the signals and act with at least a little caution or concern for the needs of the other person. i mean, in most circumstances, that doesn't even count as particularly kind or thoughtful. it's just basic human decency.

let's not forget that, according this woman's testimony, she initially stopped them from undressing her, and she said "no." even if she hadn't said "no," maybe the fact that she stopped me when i tried to undress her is a cue as to her general attitude. maybe the fact that she spent "a long time" in the bathroom to the point where i had to go tell her to come out gives me a signal that i should not proceed as though she's ready for sex with two strangers. perhaps it's ok and not at all strange for me, given these signals to her possible nervousness and the relatively extreme nature of the sex we are about to engage in to maybe ask her how she's feeling. maybe there's a way for me to try to confirm her willingness without a notarized contract. perhaps i should treat this person as a fellow human being and not as a hole in which to insert my penis.

in short (i know, too late), i get that the requirements for conviction can make this challenging for police and prosecutors, but (a) that's no reason not to challenge and perhaps improve the legal understanding of consent, and (b) there are more than just legal solutions available to us to solve problems like this. education and discussion may not be the end all be all, but it's at least a start.
I agree completely.

It's an issue that requires multiple approaches, and those need to be different based on gender, which isn't something this society is comfortable with anymore. Men need to be told that "I think so", "I guess", and "maybe" are not "yes". Anything that isn't "yes" should be assumed to be "no". Simultaneously, women need to be told to be clear - no mixed signals, and if you're not into it, say specifically "No, I don't want to do this"...and then get the hell out of there. The UM case has shades of that - the victim says she felt pressured even with the first two, but even she admits that she didn't communicate that, and there's probably nothing that would have indicated to them that she wasn't interested. And, really...if I'm in that room, and the girl says 'I have to spit out my gum', that doesn't convey to me at all that she's not doing this willingly.

The problem, even with that, is endemic to college and the age and mentality of people there. They're young, typically not all that worldly, and away from home for the first time. They're not sure what they want, but they want it to be fun, and they want people to like them. Women want their date to be the nice guy, they don't want to say no and ruin the fun. Men don't want her to say no, and think that maybe she just needs a little more convincing...maybe if I do this I can turn "no" into "oh, god yes".

Not to get too scientific, but there's also a neurobiology issue here. Science now says that the male brain in particular doesn't typically reach "maturity" until the mid-20s. The specific area that is underdeveloped at this stage is the prefrontal cortex - home of logic, risk/reward, consequence analysis, and impulse control. So, we're generally talking about 18-22 year old males, who on average have a limited capacity for risk awareness, we're putting them in an environment surrounded by similar people, and applying drugs and alcohol. It's an absolute certainty that they're going to reach a point where their lizard brain takes over, and they'll follow whatever primal urges they're feeling. Using this as a generalized profile for the 18-24 year old male, it probably will be up to the woman to carry the burden, realizing that men at this age are still evolving, and inside each of them is a predator.
 
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