No. 30 class in the nation, No., 5 in the Pac-12
- Thread starter YakiCoug
- Start date
The fat lady has not started to sing yet, so it isn't over. Many teams behind us in the rankings have room to add quite a few kids, so it will come down to what kind of kids they are able to add. But if we hold on to all the existing commits and add a couple more good ones, we'll be in the top 40. Maybe even low '30's.
Since CML's recruits are likely to be the kind that will actually qualify and show up on campus, we'll pass that one "good" recruiting year from a decade or so ago when we had a class in the top 20's....but only half of them ever suited up to actually play.
That will probably make this the best looking class thus far at WSU. Of course, we can all check back on this in 3 years or so to see how it panned out. But for now, it looks pretty darned good.
I am one happy Coug at the moment.
Since CML's recruits are likely to be the kind that will actually qualify and show up on campus, we'll pass that one "good" recruiting year from a decade or so ago when we had a class in the top 20's....but only half of them ever suited up to actually play.
That will probably make this the best looking class thus far at WSU. Of course, we can all check back on this in 3 years or so to see how it panned out. But for now, it looks pretty darned good.
I am one happy Coug at the moment.
This.
While the exposure is nice, and it's slightly encouraging, I don't see the point in getting too excited over verbal commits. There've been a lot of good players who verbaled to WSU and signed somewhere else...and there are a lot more of those than there are Michael Bumpuses, who verbaled somewhere else and came here. I'll reserve my excitement for signing day....when we see how many of these kids actually send in an LOI.
I don't know how anyone could be anything but cautiously optimistic at the very least. We have significant needs on defense and several first class recruiters. Some glaring needs are being filled. Whether a recruit visits from a SOCAL powerhouse or Ferndale HS, the campus/football operations complex can be jaw-dropping. Sure, somebody will bail prior to LOI at every school. But the recruit nucleus I see now is way better than I ever dreamed for this year.
It ain't a beauty contest, girls. Stop acting like it is. Recruit well, win games, no reason not to be happy. Bottom rung recruiting, losing games, including games we should have won, no one but "Leeches" and their endless stream of excuses, should be happy. Football is a competitive sport, you need to produce.Originally posted by YakiCoug:
and not a peep from Mr. 12-10-12...
That said, these defensive verbals suggest that Leach and Co. have finally thrown away the tape measure and scale and are recruiting real athletes. There is real reason to be optimistic. We have verbals from two legit rush ends and Moi, Rudinski and Luani have the speed and athletic ability to be a quality P-12 LB trio, a sight not seen in these parts in a decade.
The trend is your friend... and it's encouraging to see Leach finally break trend and recruit at a competitive level. We all hope this becomes the new standard.
I'll remind those who cheer loudest for moral victories, we're at about the end of the third qtr in recruiting... Let's see if Leach can close.
I'll remind those who cheer loudest for moral victories, we're at about the end of the third qtr in recruiting... Let's see if Leach can close.
Do you think that Leach got stupid after all his previous success as an assistant coach and head coach? You were one that has been calling out Leach. Improvement is never linear. Yes, there are games WSU should have won. But, there has also been games that WSU should have lost, but found a way to win. You cannot turn over an entire roster overnight with the NCAA limits. You cannot make 1st and 2nd year players experienced.Originally posted by Cougsocal:
It ain't a beauty contest, girls. Stop acting like it is. Recruit well, win games, no reason not to be happy. Bottom rung recruiting, losing games, including games we should have won, no one but "Leeches" and their endless stream of excuses, should be happy. Football is a competitive sport, you need to produce.Originally posted by YakiCoug:
and not a peep from Mr. 12-10-12...
That said, these defensive verbals suggest that Leach and Co. have finally thrown away the tape measure and scale and are recruiting real athletes. There is real reason to be optimistic. We have verbals from two legit rush ends and Moi, Rudinski and Luani have the speed and athletic ability to be a quality P-12 LB trio, a sight not seen in these parts in a decade.
Losing is always disappointing. But, just looking at one aspect of the program and not seeing the other nine great things that are happening is keeping blinders on and wanting to complain because you can.
Wulff and Leach both have had their pockets picked by other teams all the way to the end. While encouraging, it ain't a class until it's signed.
Leach needs to close out this game.
Leach needs to close out this game.
Every coach has lost players near the end. The difference is that this entire class has BCS team potential. Losing a few players would hurt, but it is not devastating. When we lost a few players at the end under coaches Doba and Wulff, it meant WSU lost their impact recruits.
I certainly don't think Leach got stupid. He just underperformed in recruiting his first 3 tries WSU.
as for the "we're too young" excuse, many many teams in the Pac-12 played young this year. Those young guys were on better performing teams and will be returning for several years, too.
as for the "we're too young" excuse, many many teams in the Pac-12 played young this year. Those young guys were on better performing teams and will be returning for several years, too.
Originally posted by Coug1990:
Do you think that Leach got stupid after all his previous success as an assistant coach and head coach? You were one that has been calling out Leach. Improvement is never linear. Yes, there are games WSU should have won. But, there has also been games that WSU should have lost, but found a way to win. You cannot turn over an entire roster overnight with the NCAA limits. You cannot make 1st and 2nd year players experienced.Originally posted by Cougsocal:
It ain't a beauty contest, girls. Stop acting like it is. Recruit well, win games, no reason not to be happy. Bottom rung recruiting, losing games, including games we should have won, no one but "Leeches" and their endless stream of excuses, should be happy. Football is a competitive sport, you need to produce.Originally posted by YakiCoug:
and not a peep from Mr. 12-10-12...
That said, these defensive verbals suggest that Leach and Co. have finally thrown away the tape measure and scale and are recruiting real athletes. There is real reason to be optimistic. We have verbals from two legit rush ends and Moi, Rudinski and Luani have the speed and athletic ability to be a quality P-12 LB trio, a sight not seen in these parts in a decade.
Losing is always disappointing. But, just looking at one aspect of the program and not seeing the other nine great things that are happening is keeping blinders on and wanting to complain because you can.
Troll on
Originally posted by chinookpirate:
I certainly don't think Leach got stupid. He just underperformed in recruiting his first 3 tries WSU.
as for the "we're too young" excuse, many many teams in the Pac-12 played young this year. Those young guys were on better performing teams and will be returning for several years, too.
Originally posted by Coug1990:
Do you think that Leach got stupid after all his previous success as an assistant coach and head coach? You were one that has been calling out Leach. Improvement is never linear. Yes, there are games WSU should have won. But, there has also been games that WSU should have lost, but found a way to win. You cannot turn over an entire roster overnight with the NCAA limits. You cannot make 1st and 2nd year players experienced.Originally posted by Cougsocal:
It ain't a beauty contest, girls. Stop acting like it is. Recruit well, win games, no reason not to be happy. Bottom rung recruiting, losing games, including games we should have won, no one but "Leeches" and their endless stream of excuses, should be happy. Football is a competitive sport, you need to produce.Originally posted by YakiCoug:
and not a peep from Mr. 12-10-12...
That said, these defensive verbals suggest that Leach and Co. have finally thrown away the tape measure and scale and are recruiting real athletes. There is real reason to be optimistic. We have verbals from two legit rush ends and Moi, Rudinski and Luani have the speed and athletic ability to be a quality P-12 LB trio, a sight not seen in these parts in a decade.
Losing is always disappointing. But, just looking at one aspect of the program and not seeing the other nine great things that are happening is keeping blinders on and wanting to complain because you can.
That's was on the most inaccurate statements I've ever read on these message boards.Originally posted by chinookpirate:
I certainly don't think Leach got stupid. He just underperformed in recruiting his first 3 tries WSU.
as for the "we're too young" excuse, many many teams in the Pac-12 played young this year. Those young guys were on better performing teams and will be returning for several years, too.
Originally posted by Coug1990:
Do you think that Leach got stupid after all his previous success as an assistant coach and head coach? You were one that has been calling out Leach. Improvement is never linear. Yes, there are games WSU should have won. But, there has also been games that WSU should have lost, but found a way to win. You cannot turn over an entire roster overnight with the NCAA limits. You cannot make 1st and 2nd year players experienced.Originally posted by Cougsocal:
It ain't a beauty contest, girls. Stop acting like it is. Recruit well, win games, no reason not to be happy. Bottom rung recruiting, losing games, including games we should have won, no one but "Leeches" and their endless stream of excuses, should be happy. Football is a competitive sport, you need to produce.Originally posted by YakiCoug:
and not a peep from Mr. 12-10-12...
That said, these defensive verbals suggest that Leach and Co. have finally thrown away the tape measure and scale and are recruiting real athletes. There is real reason to be optimistic. We have verbals from two legit rush ends and Moi, Rudinski and Luani have the speed and athletic ability to be a quality P-12 LB trio, a sight not seen in these parts in a decade.
Losing is always disappointing. But, just looking at one aspect of the program and not seeing the other nine great things that are happening is keeping blinders on and wanting to complain because you can.
you're saying you expected 12-10-12 in his first 3 years?... because this is the very first time I've heard this from you or anyone else for that matter.
Originally posted by Britton Ransford:
That's was on the most inaccurate statements I've ever read on these message boards.Originally posted by chinookpirate:
I certainly don't think Leach got stupid. He just underperformed in recruiting his first 3 tries WSU.
as for the "we're too young" excuse, many many teams in the Pac-12 played young this year. Those young guys were on better performing teams and will be returning for several years, too.
Originally posted by Coug1990:
Do you think that Leach got stupid after all his previous success as an assistant coach and head coach? You were one that has been calling out Leach. Improvement is never linear. Yes, there are games WSU should have won. But, there has also been games that WSU should have lost, but found a way to win. You cannot turn over an entire roster overnight with the NCAA limits. You cannot make 1st and 2nd year players experienced.Originally posted by Cougsocal:
It ain't a beauty contest, girls. Stop acting like it is. Recruit well, win games, no reason not to be happy. Bottom rung recruiting, losing games, including games we should have won, no one but "Leeches" and their endless stream of excuses, should be happy. Football is a competitive sport, you need to produce.Originally posted by YakiCoug:
and not a peep from Mr. 12-10-12...
That said, these defensive verbals suggest that Leach and Co. have finally thrown away the tape measure and scale and are recruiting real athletes. There is real reason to be optimistic. We have verbals from two legit rush ends and Moi, Rudinski and Luani have the speed and athletic ability to be a quality P-12 LB trio, a sight not seen in these parts in a decade.
Losing is always disappointing. But, just looking at one aspect of the program and not seeing the other nine great things that are happening is keeping blinders on and wanting to complain because you can.
REALLY???!!!! This whole thread is about people making fun of you or challenging you and your "expectations" being deflated by 12-10-12 National rankings be damned. AND in the past, people have challenged your negativity and you STILL haven't heard this?
You point to the Pac 12, we all are looking at the national You refuse to look at our program as improving, so you continue to bring up whatever window you can find that is negative. THIS is your first time hearing this?! You're "deaf", then
You can't argue with the Pac-12 rankings. 12-10-12 is what it is. Those rankings deserve some more color, though.Originally posted by chinookpirate:
you're saying you expected 12-10-12 in his first 3 years?... because this is the very first time I've heard this from you or anyone else for that matter.
Originally posted by Britton Ransford:
That's was on the most inaccurate statements I've ever read on these message boards.Originally posted by chinookpirate:
I certainly don't think Leach got stupid. He just underperformed in recruiting his first 3 tries WSU.
as for the "we're too young" excuse, many many teams in the Pac-12 played young this year. Those young guys were on better performing teams and will be returning for several years, too.
Originally posted by Coug1990:
Do you think that Leach got stupid after all his previous success as an assistant coach and head coach? You were one that has been calling out Leach. Improvement is never linear. Yes, there are games WSU should have won. But, there has also been games that WSU should have lost, but found a way to win. You cannot turn over an entire roster overnight with the NCAA limits. You cannot make 1st and 2nd year players experienced.Originally posted by Cougsocal:
It ain't a beauty contest, girls. Stop acting like it is. Recruit well, win games, no reason not to be happy. Bottom rung recruiting, losing games, including games we should have won, no one but "Leeches" and their endless stream of excuses, should be happy. Football is a competitive sport, you need to produce.Originally posted by YakiCoug:
and not a peep from Mr. 12-10-12...
That said, these defensive verbals suggest that Leach and Co. have finally thrown away the tape measure and scale and are recruiting real athletes. There is real reason to be optimistic. We have verbals from two legit rush ends and Moi, Rudinski and Luani have the speed and athletic ability to be a quality P-12 LB trio, a sight not seen in these parts in a decade.
Losing is always disappointing. But, just looking at one aspect of the program and not seeing the other nine great things that are happening is keeping blinders on and wanting to complain because you can.
Our national rankings were pretty high each year under this staff, and the number of FBS offers per commit, which I believe is the most important metric of all, has seen a HUGE improvement over the prior staff. We went from having a handful of guys in each class with any Power 5 offers to having classes where almost all of the signees have other Power 5 offers. I think that's much more important than rankings based on stars or Rivals "ratings" alone. It's market-based and, pretty much by definition, means that the kids we're signing are legitimate Pac-12 athletes.
The result is that while Leach's classes have indeed ranked low in the Pac-12 -- which, to be fair, is a serious topic worth discussing in its own right -- they at least were appropriate for the Pac-12, enabling the recruits to form a base of solid Pac-12 talent, rather than being WAC- or MWC-worthy with a side of Big Sky-worthiness.
425, don't swallow the crap he's offering too much. Yeah, we didn't have the best out of the PAC 12, but you've pointed to 1 consideration. Another is, don't forget that the gray-shirts and transfers aren't being counted in these rankings. So consider Larue, et al, into your perspective of the recruiting classes
Is it a lot? Would they have moved the barometer? Don't know. But those rankings aren't 100% accurate, either. We've had several transfers that are true rock stars
can't remember the names tho
Anyone?
95, the thing about him is that he continually argues both sides. If we say something good about Leach recruiting, he will say something negative about Leach. If in another thread, someone says something bad about Leach recruiting, the same person will challenge that person and say Leach is doing fine.
He is that way about many subjects.
I'll quote Harvey Keitel from Pulp Fiction and say let's not start... well, can't print the rest here but you get the idea.
Been around long enough to see everyone get excited and start humping the nearest tree about certain verbals only to have them go elsewhere.
I do like the effort so far and the emphasis they seem to be putting on defense.
Just get some speed that will go to class and not major in horticulture please.
This post was edited on 12/17 1:11 PM by spongebob11
Been around long enough to see everyone get excited and start humping the nearest tree about certain verbals only to have them go elsewhere.
I do like the effort so far and the emphasis they seem to be putting on defense.
Just get some speed that will go to class and not major in horticulture please.
This post was edited on 12/17 1:11 PM by spongebob11
Fair points, and yes, it's obvious that 90% of Chinook's posts are critiques of Leach, 75% of which are passive aggressive, with the remaining 10% of posts some quickly pecked out "Go Cougs" fare to point to when needed. (Yes, Chinook, we're all on to this ... it's unclear whether you're really a Husky, but you're using the same tactics I would use if playing a long-game troll on a Husky board.)
I don't want these two points of mine to get lost, though:
1. The talent brought in the past three years, especially the last two, is legit Pac-12 talent.
2. Regardless of the motivation of Chinook, it's fair to point out that even if the talent is now legit Pac-12 talent, we still need to bump it up a few notches to be competitive in the conference. We're at a point where we are separating cleanly from non-Power 5 conference teams in talent level, but wins have to come from some combination of (i) talent, (ii) development, and (iii) scheming / game day coaching.
With the caveat that "talent" isn't as simple as plugging in recruiting rankings, in broad terms the team that's in the top half of the conference in recruiting service rankings over a several-year period is going to have better players than a team bumping along the bottom of the conference.
So if our talent level is, say, 11th in the conference, the only way you're going to beat other Pac-12 teams is to do a better job developing that talent or outcoaching / outscheming them on game day. Our offense is designed to produce even without top-tier talent, and it is doing so, particularly in terms of getting yards. There also is reason to believe the best is to come in future years. Otherwise, though, I've seen no evidence that we coach or develop kids any better than other Pac-12 teams. (Importantly, this is not to say we coach or develop worse than them; it's just saying that I don't see a demonstrated basis for asserting that we are outcoaching or outscheming anyone, other than to the extent our offense is working pretty well, which is a pretty big caveat.) There's no magical elixir here ... some combination of talent, coaching, and/or development has to be better than peer schools who all are fighting to beat you at the same things.
I don't know, it seems like some people don't recognize a difference between 12(45) and 12(85). When people can't acknowledge how different those are, the conversation isn't worth wasting time on.
And I saw plenty of games last year, and Utah this year, where I'd point to the coaching as the main reason the team won- I don't remember any of those under the past regime- so as the talent improves, the scheme should continue to look better.
And I saw plenty of games last year, and Utah this year, where I'd point to the coaching as the main reason the team won- I don't remember any of those under the past regime- so as the talent improves, the scheme should continue to look better.
Yes, just looking at the numbers does not mean much unless you look at the context. Right now, ASU is 4th in the P12, uw 5th, Arizona 6th and WSU 7th in Rivals rankings. There is a difference of 35 points (1430 to 1395) between ASU and WSU. All these rankings are just a best guess by Rivals. It may or may not be accurate. WSU could really be 4th or 5th, etc.
This post was edited on 12/17 2:35 PM by Coug1990
At this point, that's literally the difference of an eval for the two new kids. As long as you're in the same orbit, it's not a huge disparity. And they've still got legitimately big names on the board that could raise the rankings, and almost every kid would have the ability to head to one PXII team or another if they did decommit- not the case with the last staff's recruits.
This thread began celebrating 5th which I agree is good news! Said so earlier. Now we're already 7th... Which is still good and a break from Leach's 3 year trend. If he can hold it,or improve it, that's good. If we continue to fall.. back to 10th or lower... Well... at some point, you are what your record says you are.
Stupid no, complacent yes. I don't think Leach really understood the challenge he faced. Like most who have early success in their careers, I think he overrated himself. 9-22 is humbling and a dose of reality.Originally posted by Coug1990:
Do you think that Leach got stupid after all his previous success as an assistant coach and head coach? You were one that has been calling out Leach. Improvement is never linear. Yes, there are games WSU should have won. But, there has also been games that WSU should have lost, but found a way to win. You cannot turn over an entire roster overnight with the NCAA limits. You cannot make 1st and 2nd year players experienced.Originally posted by Cougsocal:
It ain't a beauty contest, girls. Stop acting like it is. Recruit well, win games, no reason not to be happy. Bottom rung recruiting, losing games, including games we should have won, no one but "Leeches" and their endless stream of excuses, should be happy. Football is a competitive sport, you need to produce.Originally posted by YakiCoug:
and not a peep from Mr. 12-10-12...
That said, these defensive verbals suggest that Leach and Co. have finally thrown away the tape measure and scale and are recruiting real athletes. There is real reason to be optimistic. We have verbals from two legit rush ends and Moi, Rudinski and Luani have the speed and athletic ability to be a quality P-12 LB trio, a sight not seen in these parts in a decade.
Losing is always disappointing. But, just looking at one aspect of the program and not seeing the other nine great things that are happening is keeping blinders on and wanting to complain because you can.
Where was the recruiting the last three years, particularly on defense? Leach had the opportunity to bring in 75 kids. Our defense has actually gotten worse, statistically. Considering the level of talent Wulff recruited, that is alarming. The cavalry should have started to arrive before now. Better late than never.
Cool story bro but the accolades started long before he came in at 84-43. He is what his winning record says he is and if we add up the amount of offers for this class...the recruits know it as well.
While you are correct that CML has to close on these players, I also recognize that CML has done in the recruiting class, something that hasn't been done in 10-15 years. This class is shaping up beyond anything WSU has had for quite some time. I'd wager there are people on the board that have children
that weren't born when we had such a good class shaping up. I'm excited and I think that's worthy. Especially with the JC's that have signed. That, in and of itself, is great.
Like we've all said, and you and I agree on, there will be movement, some recruits will come and go before LOI but this class is pretty special, right now. That's worth some accolades. You build in steps. This is a good step. Just this class is putting other programs on notice that we are moving forward. With our Offense, and now such emphasis on D, I see a lot of promise in the future.
Some here want to be the stern dude in the corner with their arms folded, waiting for the hot chick to turn them down. You asked her to dance and she said YES! We haven't gotten to the point of "going steady" yet. Enjoy the here and now, for criminy sakes! I'll dance with the hot chick now, thanks. It's a little much and a bit overboard but I'll go with it I'll "Celebrate"
Celebration
But point taken Fishie. We need to close the deal, we need to "go steady" before we really break out the dancing shoes.
Like we've all said, and you and I agree on, there will be movement, some recruits will come and go before LOI but this class is pretty special, right now. That's worth some accolades. You build in steps. This is a good step. Just this class is putting other programs on notice that we are moving forward. With our Offense, and now such emphasis on D, I see a lot of promise in the future.
Some here want to be the stern dude in the corner with their arms folded, waiting for the hot chick to turn them down. You asked her to dance and she said YES! We haven't gotten to the point of "going steady" yet. Enjoy the here and now, for criminy sakes! I'll dance with the hot chick now, thanks. It's a little much and a bit overboard but I'll go with it I'll "Celebrate"
Celebration
But point taken Fishie. We need to close the deal, we need to "go steady" before we really break out the dancing shoes.
Hell, all you have to do is go to the Dawgman board to get that talking point. They probably have something about how much more Peterson is worth than Leach and how overpaid Leach is.
Regarding closing, the ink is dry on two key NLIs. Just pointing that out.Originally posted by Cougsocal:
Stupid no, complacent yes. I don't think Leach really understood the challenge he faced. Like most who have early success in their careers, I think he overrated himself. 9-22 is humbling and a dose of reality.Originally posted by Coug1990:
Do you think that Leach got stupid after all his previous success as an assistant coach and head coach? You were one that has been calling out Leach. Improvement is never linear. Yes, there are games WSU should have won. But, there has also been games that WSU should have lost, but found a way to win. You cannot turn over an entire roster overnight with the NCAA limits. You cannot make 1st and 2nd year players experienced.Originally posted by Cougsocal:
It ain't a beauty contest, girls. Stop acting like it is. Recruit well, win games, no reason not to be happy. Bottom rung recruiting, losing games, including games we should have won, no one but "Leeches" and their endless stream of excuses, should be happy. Football is a competitive sport, you need to produce.Originally posted by YakiCoug:
and not a peep from Mr. 12-10-12...
That said, these defensive verbals suggest that Leach and Co. have finally thrown away the tape measure and scale and are recruiting real athletes. There is real reason to be optimistic. We have verbals from two legit rush ends and Moi, Rudinski and Luani have the speed and athletic ability to be a quality P-12 LB trio, a sight not seen in these parts in a decade.
Losing is always disappointing. But, just looking at one aspect of the program and not seeing the other nine great things that are happening is keeping blinders on and wanting to complain because you can.
Where was the recruiting the last three years, particularly on defense? Leach had the opportunity to bring in 75 kids. Our defense has actually gotten worse, statistically. Considering the level of talent Wulff recruited, that is alarming. The cavalry should have started to arrive before now. Better late than never.
Exactly. There's a difference between being last in the conference by a hair, and being last by a mile.
It's like saying this year's loss to Cal was the same as 2008's.
The Pac12 TV money has helped WSU close the gap with it's Pac12 competition. It didn't necessarily vault WSU past anyone. I think what we'll continue to see is WSU ranking close to the Oregon St's, Utah's & CU's of the conference, while distancing themselves from the Nevada's, BSU's & Fresno's of the world.
To some, context means less than the narrative that they want to push. BX has an article up today where they point out that the 1999 class, the backbone of the 10-10-10 seasons, was ranked nationally in the 30's. However, it was ranked 8th to 10th among conference teams by all the ranking services.
Just looking at the last place or near last place finish that year does not tell the real story.
Yes. This is certainly true. Must drive her husband crazy.
This post was edited on 12/18 3:17 PM by How_did_this_happen?
This post was edited on 12/18 3:17 PM by How_did_this_happen?
