This recruiting class will likely determine the Leach legacy

[Cougsocal]

In my 40 years watching the Cougs, no coach has won more game with less talent than Leach. What other coach could get 8 wins out of this group? Granted, the P-12 was as weak, top to bottom, as I've ever seen it, but we didn't have a talent advantage over anyone.

But smoke and mirror can only get you so far. For Leach to get to the next level, i.e. win the big game, he needs to hit this recruiting class out of the park (relatively). New facilities, back to back winning seasons, 5 years at the helm, Paul Wulff, who? If not now, it is never going to happen on the recruiting front.

If we have yet another bottom rung recruiting class (10-12), we need to just accept the fact that this is as good as it is going to get for the Cougs under Leach.

I'm going to keep my fingers crossed.

 

[YakiCoug]

In my 40 years watching the Cougs, no coach has won more game with less talent than Leach. What other coach could get 8 wins out of this group? Granted, the P-12 was as weak, top to bottom, as I've ever seen it, but we didn't have a talent advantage over anyone.

But smoke and mirror can only get you so far. For Leach to get to the next level, i.e. win the big game, he needs to hit this recruiting class out of the park (relatively). New facilities, back to back winning seasons, 5 years at the helm, Paul Wulff, who? If not now, it is never going to happen on the recruiting front.

If we have yet another bottom rung recruiting class (10-12), we need to just accept the fact that this is as good as it is going to get for the Cougs under Leach.

I'm going to keep my fingers crossed.

So far, this class has a bunch of 3-star players with a couple 4-stars mixed in (Valencia, the JC o-lineman; Powell, the Tri-Cities o-lineman; and White, the Florida wr, and Neville, the Oregon QB, although neither is a consensus 4 star). Conspicuous by their absence are two things: legit speed and d-tackles. I don't know if McDougle recommits, but if he doesn't and if guys like Bartley and Mattox do not grow into DTs, the interior d-line could be a liability (Ekuale, Tapa, and McBroom are the only ones returning). Speed at linebacker might improve if Chima Onyeukwu emerges (JC transfer who redshirted). Dylan Hanser will be a senior, and Mason Vinyard is a tall, young guy with good speed. MLB will continue to be a liability at many times, however.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

Yaki is right regarding the DT's. In the same way and for the same reasons that you have to recruit 4-6 O linemen each year (one or two of which might be O line/TE tweeners), you need at least one legit DT who will be academically eligible and probably at least 2 DE/DT tweeners that might grow. That is an absolute minimum on a year-in, year-out basis.

Speed is a bit more flexible. Little fast guys have a place at the table, but big fast guys are much better. And big guys with intermediate speed can make a case vs. little fast guys. Here, you need a mix, and one or two faster guys can anchor a WR staff that is a mix of many other things.

 

[YakiCoug]

Yaki is right regarding the DT's. In the same way and for the same reasons that you have to recruit 4-6 O linemen each year (one or two of which might be O line/TE tweeners), you need at least one legit DT who will be academically eligible and probably at least 2 DE/DT tweeners that might grow. That is an absolute minimum on a year-in, year-out basis.

Speed is a bit more flexible. Little fast guys have a place at the table, but big fast guys are much better. And big guys with intermediate speed can make a case vs. little fast guys. Here, you need a mix, and one or two faster guys can anchor a WR staff that is a mix of many other things.

On wide receivers specifically, what do we know about Patmon, Porter, and Bell? Speaking of WR recruits, or former ones, I see that Isaiah Hodgins signed with Oregon State. He seemed like an Oregon lock after he decommited from us..

 

[jarvis1981]

I know this has been stated a few times but.........
why doesn't the team get a few OL guys who aren't in the two deep to switch to D-line?
Get some playing time before you graduate and make a contribution to the team.
Some good recruits being added to the O-line so the 3rd and 4th year redshirt guys need to make a switch and help out.

 

[wazzubruce]

Good post Cougsocal. I agree with everything you said.

 

[Cougsocal]

So far, this class has a bunch of 3-star players with a couple 4-stars mixed in (Valencia, the JC o-lineman; Powell, the Tri-Cities o-lineman; and White, the Florida wr, and Neville, the Oregon QB, although neither is a consensus 4 star). Conspicuous by their absence are two things: legit speed and d-tackles. I don't know if McDougle recommits, but if he doesn't and if guys like Bartley and Mattox do not grow into DTs, the interior d-line could be a liability (Ekuale, Tapa, and McBroom are the only ones returning). Speed at linebacker might improve if Chima Onyeukwu emerges (JC transfer who redshirted). Dylan Hanser will be a senior, and Mason Vinyard is a tall, young guy with good speed. MLB will continue to be a liability at many times, however.

Well, the last couple years other teams upgraded recruiting at our expense, late, hopefully we can return the favor this year. Frankly, I'm not optimistic. Leach's personality, wit and intelligence is better suited to recruit prof's kids than your typical football player and his family. What I don't get is he is willing to throw a ton of money at Joe to keep a needed foothold in the islands, but no one else on the staff has shown any recruiting prowess, but no one has suffered the consequences. Honestly, what the hell does Harrell add to the staff? Their are two guys out there that I would go for, Gesser and Polamalu. What they might give up in Xs and Os ability, they will make up for in their ability to sell. What we need most is to change up our stale recruiting dynamic.

If Mike Price can show his best friend, and a recruiting dud, the door, Leach can and should do the same. It is a business, after all.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

Jarvis, the O line guys have size but typically not all of the other things that a DT needs. If all you are after is a guy who can fill space, then it could work. Not likely to find anybody who could push the pocket hard, let alone pass rush, in our O line group. That might work with smaller O lines that were recruited for primarily option running teams, but not for really big guys recruited primarily for pass blocking. There is also a big personality difference between most O and D interior linemen at the FBS level.

Still, if you have no choice, what you suggest is what you end up doing. But it typically ends up being a case of trying to put a square peg into a round hole.

 

[dgibbons]

Well, the last couple years other teams upgraded recruiting at our expense, late, hopefully we can return the favor this year. Frankly, I'm not optimistic. Leach's personality, wit and intelligence is better suited to recruit prof's kids than your typical football player and his family. What I don't get is he is willing to throw a ton of money at Joe to keep a needed foothold in the islands, but no one else on the staff has shown any recruiting prowess, but no one has suffered the consequences. Honestly, what the hell does Harrell add to the staff? Their are two guys out there that I would go for, Gesser and Polamalu. What they might give up in Xs and Os ability, they will make up for in their ability to sell. What we need most is to change up our stale recruiting dynamic.

If Mike Price can show his best friend, and a recruiting dud, the door, Leach can and should do the same. It is a business, after all.

Business like firing his special teams coordinator, who is a good friend, during the season? Or do you mean some other kind of business?

Gesser is done with coaching. And Harrel is no longer on the staff. Nice to see you're keeping up with current events.

 

[YakiCoug]

In my 40 years watching the Cougs, no coach has won more game with less talent than Leach. What other coach could get 8 wins out of this group? Granted, the P-12 was as weak, top to bottom, as I've ever seen it, but we didn't have a talent advantage over anyone.

But smoke and mirror can only get you so far. For Leach to get to the next level, i.e. win the big game, he needs to hit this recruiting class out of the park (relatively). New facilities, back to back winning seasons, 5 years at the helm, Paul Wulff, who? If not now, it is never going to happen on the recruiting front.

If we have yet another bottom rung recruiting class (10-12), we need to just accept the fact that this is as good as it is going to get for the Cougs under Leach.

I'm going to keep my fingers crossed.

Actually, it's the 2016 class and this one that will determine the future. As usual when I watch bowl games, I take note of the trenches. Leach and staff are doing a good job bringing in size and numbers on the O-line, but unless guys like Mattox, Bartley, and Fehoko (is he still at WSU?) and maybe Nick Begg get a lot bigger, life could be tough for the interior d-line. The McDougle kid from Florida (6-1, 295) decommited quite awhile ago. Conspicuous in their absence are d-line recruits from Samoa. If Salavea is holding some cards here, it might explain why Oregon is still after him. And do we have a top-secret transfer coming in?
Beyond the trenches, replacing Marks and Cracraft is a high priority. Priester's return certainly helps. He's bigger and faster than Marks but is he as savvy and tough? Clearly we dropped off considerably (some argue we tanked) at the slot with Cracraft's injury. Looking at his lack of offers, Easop Winston is an unknown at best. Game highlights can be a tricky proposition. I'm sure he'll contribute but how much? And who knows what Renard Bell, Grant Porter, and Dezmon Patmon will bring as redshirt freshmen. Are they more of the same possession receiver cut?

 

[Coug95man2]

Business like firing his special teams coordinator, who is a good friend, during the season? Or do you mean some other kind of business?

Gesser is done with coaching. And Harrel is no longer on the staff. Nice to see you're keeping up with current events.

Might I also add, the recruiting scale has been pretty darn good for Wilson and Mele. Also, all the beef that we have has been spread around but our Oline coach has to seal the deal so I'd say he's not doing too bad in the recruiting, either.

As I recall, quite a while ago, SoCal had mentioned how horrible we were doing recruiting the in-state kids. Mele, specifically this year, has done an outstanding job in that regard. Seems like it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

 

[jarvis1981]

Jarvis, the O line guys have size but typically not all of the other things that a DT needs. If all you are after is a guy who can fill space, then it could work. Not likely to find anybody who could push the pocket hard, let alone pass rush, in our O line group. That might work with smaller O lines that were recruited for primarily option running teams, but not for really big guys recruited primarily for pass blocking. There is also a big personality difference between most O and D interior linemen at the FBS level.

Still, if you have no choice, what you suggest is what you end up doing. But it typically ends up being a case of trying to put a square peg into a round hole.

Agree with you.
Certainly not the first choice.

 

[DaUwillRiseAgain]

Very difficult to take the next step at Wazzu. It can be done of course, three straight 10 win seasons from 01-03 with a Rose Bowl shows this, but hopefully fans understand the difficulty of that and don't try and chase Leach out of town if he routinely has winning seasons, just doesn't take that next step. It is nearly impossible to take that next step.

 

[PINGDUDE4]

Very difficult to take the next step at Wazzu. It can be done of course, three straight 10 win seasons from 01-03 with a Rose Bowl shows this, but hopefully fans understand the difficulty of that and don't try and chase Leach out of town if he routinely has winning seasons, just doesn't take that next step. It is nearly impossible to take that next step.

This a strong thread in that it acknowledges without better players than he had this year, Leach simply can not continue to reel off 8 -9 win seasons . You get an off game like Falk had in the Bowl and there is simply not enough talent out there to pick up the slack.

However I could see Leach chased off if the win totals go back to be reflective of the talent level. Saw the identical thing happen at Tech. Tech was and always will be a bottom feeder. Leach comes in coaches the team up , they have some stellar years. The school's administration starts getting it into their head that they are somehow something that they are not and decide if they can do it with Leach they can do it with anybody. Everyone knows how that turned out for them, they are further into the abyss than ever. History will repeat itself.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

Ping, I think you have summarized the situation pretty well. I disagree with DaU, who is trying to be constructive and thoughtful but can't get past some of his Husky biases. As with most forms of prejudice, we can't altogether negate it; the best for which we can hope is to recognize it as it pops up. DaU is correct that there are some impediments that make top level success more difficult at WSU than at UW. But as several coaches have shown over the history of the institution, success at WSU has to be built over time. Given a coach who can do that, and the requisite time, it can be done. Ping, as you infer, the dumbest thing we could do is end up with a stupid president that does not recognize that consistent winning seasons are the result of high quality effort…and conclude that we will somehow manage to stay there forever without the required leader. Yes, Tech essentially followed that path, and it is clear how that has gone for them. We need to support Leach. He will continue to produce winning teams, and when he has the right combination of folks on staff and on the roster (which won't be every year), he will have teams that instead of being in the PAC's # 4-6 quartile will instead be in the top quartile. In any given year the difference between the top 3 teams in the league comes down to luck more than anything else…which teams were missed in league play, who had injuries or illness for key games, what were the background noise issues at particular moments in the season, when did the hot games occur for each team, how the top teams happened to match up to each other (if they even happened to play each other) etc. Sure, the coaching staff needs to mitigate these things as much as possible, but the majority of the staffs in the PAC know how to do that. In dealing with 18-23 year old kids, it simply is not always possible to do so.

As one of those 4 decade Coug Fans, I am quite happy to have consistent winning seasons and respectable bowls with the occasional season that is better and the odd year when injuries kill us and we are worse. Moos's best move as AD thus far was hiring CML. Our worst move going forward would be to undo that good work.

 

[ElComanche]

The recruiting has been good under Leach. The O line recruiting looks good this year.The LB recruiting may turn out well and the D backs look good. The D line needs help. There are a couple of HS guys from Arizona who have committed to Arizona but Leach may flip them The WR s are a worry. They are after a couple of good HS kids with speed and I hope they land them,but they were on them late so who know?, Issac Zico is the 6th rated juco and i think he should be rated higher He seems to be the total package. However,West Virginia and Minnesota
are also in the hunt.So the coaches have a lot to do in keeping their commits and flipping a few others.

 

[Coug1990]

I know this has been stated a few times but.........
why doesn't the team get a few OL guys who aren't in the two deep to switch to D-line?
Get some playing time before you graduate and make a contribution to the team.
Some good recruits being added to the O-line so the 3rd and 4th year redshirt guys need to make a switch and help out.

If they are not good enough to see the field, then they are not good enough to see the field. Out of all the years you have been watching football for all college and pro teams, name the successful lineman that have switched from defense to offense or from offense to defense mid career.

 

[CougSinceBirth]

Mastro is a recruiting gem too - haven't seen him mentioned yet. If we're at the point where we fans can complain about 8-9 win seasons on the regular, I'm going to take that.

WSU needs to land a couple of guys that can take them over the top, all while continuing to develop talent as they have if they truly want to win 10+ games consistently.

 

[Cougatron]

It's all about building.

Remember when Leach first showed up he had to sell them on his vision and past accomplishments at another location. We had won 9 games the previous 4 years and hadn't been to a bowl game for a decade. Most recruits barely ihad seen WSU be decent let alone good.

The reality was WSU was seen as a doormat.

Now he has earned some credibility in the Pac-12. 3 bowls in 4 years for WSU. Back to back winning seasons? Back to back beating Oregon? Back to back beating UCLA? Back to back beating ASU? Beating Stanford?

So I think we will be okay. We do need DTs though. I think OL is looking good, I think we will be okay at LB, secondary depth is looking good, WRs we obviously need playmakers, but we have young guys who can play they are just inexperienced, RB we are fine, QB I like what I've seen from Hilinski, but obviously will need guys behind him that can play. We have a LOT of DEs Just need the interior DTs.

This is just another class in the process of building a quality program. The biggest hurdle is to just to keep adding pieces together.

 

[SCglory]

In my 40 years watching the Cougs, no coach has won more game with less talent than Leach. What other coach could get 8 wins out of this group? Granted, the P-12 was as weak, top to bottom, as I've ever seen it, but we didn't have a talent advantage over anyone.

But smoke and mirror can only get you so far. For Leach to get to the next level, i.e. win the big game, he needs to hit this recruiting class out of the park (relatively). New facilities, back to back winning seasons, 5 years at the helm, Paul Wulff, who? If not now, it is never going to happen on the recruiting front.

If we have yet another bottom rung recruiting class (10-12), we need to just accept the fact that this is as good as it is going to get for the Cougs under Leach.

I'm going to keep my fingers crossed.

As was obvious, cougs are weak at o-line and he is addressing that...but he needs more. Never again can a Leach offense have a line in which 5 guys can't block 3.

 

[Cougsocal]

Business like firing his special teams coordinator, who is a good friend, during the season? Or do you mean some other kind of business?

Gesser is done with coaching. And Harrel is no longer on the staff. Nice to see you're keeping up with current events.

My bad on Harrell, but Eric Russell, the special teams coach, wasn't canned because his recruiting was sub par, it was because no special teams in FBS were playing remotely as bad. Firing for gross incompetence isn't quite the same as letting good coaches go because they aren't meeting expectations on the recruiting trail. No one is saying that this staff can't coach, but as Yaki points out, they aren't getting us out of the P-12 bottom tier on the recruiting front. Sorry, it is a somewhat complex point, I should have spelt it out more clearly for you, Sunshine.

 

[Cougsocal]

As was obvious, cougs are weak at o-line and he is addressing that...but he needs more. Never again can a Leach offense have a line in which 5 guys can't block 3.

Also, shouldn't it be, never again can the best receiving corp in Eastern Washington play in Cheney.

As for the OL, if you sign 30+ kids in 5 years, and you still can't field 5 who can block 3, you are still only "trying to address" the problem.

Frankly, I don't think the OL is as much the problem as our small and slow WRs. Who are the heir apparents to Cracraft and Marks, let alone Dom Williams and Mayle?