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SaveFerris

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Dec 21, 2001
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Thanks for the posts SF. Love the size in this class. A 6'6" center, A 6'4" center, and a 6'1" guard. I agree, recruiting seems to have picked up. Making the tournament the last two years has had to have helped.
 
I had the same thought as well. Making the Tournament 2 straight years has to have helped.

The players makeup still seems there (high IQ, gritty, work-ethic), but better offers. Villa the most reported offers (Arizona, Ohio State, Utah, GU). Covill and Kpetikou had P6 offers as well.

Good to see more length with the bigs and on the wing. Hopefully another Leger-Walker at some point as well.
 
SaveFerris said:
Oscar Cluff, JC center sings.

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Awesome. WSU men's bball. Getting a JC center is awesome.

Who is Oscar Cliff other then a JC center? What's his Height, weight? Was he pursued by other P5/mid majors, etc? How many years does he have left to play? Is he going to be able to play this season help fill in until Jackson get back, or will he be here next season?
 
mikalalas said:
Awesome. WSU men's bball. Getting a JC center is awesome.

Who is Oscar Cliff other then a JC center? What's his Height, weight? Was he pursued by other P5/mid majors, etc? How many years does he have left to play? Is he going to be able to play this season help fill in until Jackson get back, or will he be here next season?
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Followed the Twitter trail.

He is a 6-10 sophomore JC transfer.

Still don't know weight.

The JC experts in the Twitter trail say he has upside, potential.

His JC team played the BEST JC team in USA that is Salt Lake City JC, in play off championship game.

WSU is ABSOLUTELY STACKED, SET in the Frontcourt with Gueye, Jackson, Jaki, Diongue, Mael Crespin, Oscar Cluff, Solomon Ominu(Reclassified(Kind of like greyshirting, and is delaying until the next season(Oscar Cluff's recruiting class, unless Oscar Cluff, also reclassifies, delays)

Even if either Jackson or Gueye or Jaki, etc, leaves, at the end of, after this season, WSU is still pretty ok at, in Frontcourt.

And if they all come back, and if WSU only loses DJ Rodman, etc, to graduation, WSU is going to be freaking awesome, amazing, fantastic, and will win 22,23,24,25 games in the regular season, 3,4 games in the Pac 12 tourney, 2,3,4 in Conference, 3,4,5,6 seed, 2nd round, Sweet 16, Elite 8, in NCAA tournament.

Frontcourt is definitely stacked, set, awesome, amazing.

Smith is truly recruiting at a level never seen before in WSU's history.

Raveling is the closest, and he had Stuart House that was a parade all American, #2 in entire nation recruit, but even tho that technically better then Smith, Raveling also had some to a semi lot of lower recruits, and wasn't as consistently good at recruiting as Smith.

Smith is the recruiting King in WSU's entire history.
 
I love Smith's recruiting. He and his staff work so hard and have great connections, especially with the international scene. Certainly the best recruiter WSU has had in decades. Is he better than what George Raveling was able to do? It's a matter of opinion. I was a student back in George's day and he had several great recruiting classes. You mentioned House, but Puidokas, Collins, Giovacchini, Barnhill, Greg Johnson, Terry Kelly, Guy Williams, Steve Harriel, Bryan Rison, (and I'm missing a few) were all comparable to the players Smith is bringing in. Rav did have a few clunker classes and I would have to say that Kyle Smith really hasn't had a subpar class yet. (I don't really count his first class in which he had a short period of time to cobble together recruits). Pretty exciting for the future of Cougar basketball.

Glad Cougar
 
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Glad Cougar said:
I love Smith's recruiting. He and his staff work so hard and have great connections, especially with the international scene. Certainly the best recruiter WSU has had in decades. Is he better than what George Raveling was able to do? It's a matter of opinion. I was a student back in George's day and he had several great recruiting classes. You mentioned House, but Puidokas, Collins, Giovacchini, Barnhill, Greg Johnson, Terry Kelly, Guy Williams, Steve Harriel, Bryan Rison, (and I'm missing a few) were all comparable to the players Smith is bringing in. Rav did have a few clunker classes and I would have to say that Kyle Smith really hasn't had a subpar class yet. (I don't really count his first class in which he had a short period of time to cobble together recruits). Pretty exciting for the future of Cougar basketball.

Glad Cougar
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I'll even help you by adding Craig Ehlo.

All those guys were great, awesome.

But only House, Guy Williams, Puidokas, Craig Ehlo, are, were either better then or Equal to

Gueye(4, 4.5 stars), Jackson 4 stars, Jaki( 4 stars ) Diongue(4,4.5 stars), Efe(3,3.5 stars), Noah Williams(3.5, 4 stars) Carlos Rosario(4 stars), Bamba(3, 3.5 stars), Koulibaly(3, 3.5, 4 stars)

Gueye was projected as a Lottery pick by experts before he even committed.

Jaki TURNED DOWN a PRO, PROFESSIONAL CONTRACT, MONEY to play at WSU.

Efe, before his injury, was on the OFFICIAL NBA SITE, showing off his JORDAN DUNK, coached by a NBA coach, was on FASTRACK to NBA G LEAGUE, before his injury hit him.

Koulibaly was reportedly a projected 1 and done to NBA.

I know that they didn't have star rankings back then. But if they had had star rankings back then, Smith's average star rankings is about 3.75 stars, and Raveling's, would have been about 2.5 to 3 to 3.25 star.

Remember you can't go by just House, Guy, Puidokas, Ehlo, and their college, NBA careers. You have to go by their RECRUIT RANKINGS at the time they were recruited.

And you have to include the CLUNKER classes.

It took Raveling 7, SEVEN years to semi consistently recruit good, get WSU to the NCAA tournament.

On that Journey, Raveling had some real STINKER classes, players.

Smith on the other hand, has done better EARLIER, has been more CONSISTENT, and only had 1 semi clunker class, because as you said, Smith barely had any time at all to put together a class at all.


OVERALL RECRUIT RANKINGS, ON PAPER, ETC, Smith has been the better recruiter. His recruits overall have been higher ranked, and higher on paper, and he has beat out more Duke's, Kentucky's, North Carolina's, Kansas's, etc, for higher rates recruits then Raveling has.

And even if Raveling were to have been better recruiting wise(He wasn't better), he had 7 years to Smith's about 3,4 years.

By the time Smith reaches 7+ years, his results recruiting wise will be better then Raveling(Smith's recruiting results are already better then Raveling's Recruiting Results.)

Arguably Smith is the best recruiter in WSU history.
 
Oscar’s JC team started this season with two blow out wins which moved them up to 17th ranked nationally from number20. In one game he had double/ double with 18 pts and 18 boards. Smith’s recruiting has been nothing short of impressive so I have to think this kid will be solid. To bad he won’t be here till next year because with Jackson being out indefinitely we are week up front.
 
Cluff looks ok, but he's one of the first Smith recruits I haven't seen something that made me understand the offer. Solid fundamentals, not explosive but moves well, seems to have touch. I'll be happy to be wrong but seems more of a rotation backup once Jackson is back (hopefully).

Recent full game. Cluff is #45 in red.

 
I agree not a huge wow factor with this guy. Seems more like a guy you pick up later after other options have not panned out, but Smith really has only had a few real misses so far. Also we really need inside help next year if Gueye leaves and DJ isn’t 100% or god forbid can’t return to the court.
 
mikalalas said:
I'll even help you by adding Craig Ehlo.

All those guys were great, awesome.

But only House, Guy Williams, Puidokas, Craig Ehlo, are, were either better then or Equal to

Gueye(4, 4.5 stars), Jackson 4 stars, Jaki( 4 stars ) Diongue(4,4.5 stars), Efe(3,3.5 stars), Noah Williams(3.5, 4 stars) Carlos Rosario(4 stars), Bamba(3, 3.5 stars), Koulibaly(3, 3.5, 4 stars)

Gueye was projected as a Lottery pick by experts before he even committed.

Jaki TURNED DOWN a PRO, PROFESSIONAL CONTRACT, MONEY to play at WSU.

Efe, before his injury, was on the OFFICIAL NBA SITE, showing off his JORDAN DUNK, coached by a NBA coach, was on FASTRACK to NBA G LEAGUE, before his injury hit him.

Koulibaly was reportedly a projected 1 and done to NBA.

I know that they didn't have star rankings back then. But if they had had star rankings back then, Smith's average star rankings is about 3.75 stars, and Raveling's, would have been about 2.5 to 3 to 3.25 star.

Remember you can't go by just House, Guy, Puidokas, Ehlo, and their college, NBA careers. You have to go by their RECRUIT RANKINGS at the time they were recruited.

And you have to include the CLUNKER classes.

It took Raveling 7, SEVEN years to semi consistently recruit good, get WSU to the NCAA tournament.

On that Journey, Raveling had some real STINKER classes, players.

Smith on the other hand, has done better EARLIER, has been more CONSISTENT, and only had 1 semi clunker class, because as you said, Smith barely had any time at all to put together a class at all.


OVERALL RECRUIT RANKINGS, ON PAPER, ETC, Smith has been the better recruiter. His recruits overall have been higher ranked, and higher on paper, and he has beat out more Duke's, Kentucky's, North Carolina's, Kansas's, etc, for higher rates recruits then Raveling has.

And even if Raveling were to have been better recruiting wise(He wasn't better), he had 7 years to Smith's about 3,4 years.

By the time Smith reaches 7+ years, his results recruiting wise will be better then Raveling(Smith's recruiting results are already better then Raveling's Recruiting Results.)

Arguably Smith is the best recruiter in WSU history.
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No argument from me about Smith's recruiting acumen. I would, however, add Don Collins on your list of Raveling recruits who were better or equal to Smith's top recruits. He would've been highly rated if they had recruiting ratings back then.

Glad Cougar
 
jourdand said:
I agree not a huge wow factor with this guy. Seems more like a guy you pick up later after other options have not panned out, but Smith really has only had a few real misses so far. Also we really need inside help next year if Gueye leaves and DJ isn’t 100% or god forbid can’t return to the court.
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I don't think WSU would lose both Gueye, Jackson.

If Jackson only comes back LATE season, he will probably want to come back next season. And WSU would PROBABLY win 22 to 26 games in regular season, 2,3,4 in conference, 3,4 PAC 12 tourney wins, 2nd round, sweet 16, Elite 8 of NCAA, IF IF everybody comes back, and only Rodman graduates. Jackson would probably want to be a part of that. Also Jackson might have a shot at NBA, as a undrafted free agent, last pick of 2nd round, G League, IF IF he comes back for next year. So I don't think Jackson will leave.

Gueye is the greater threat of leaving, but if he does, it would be him listening to BAD advice. He is currently projected by ALL the experts to be drafted #45, midway thru 2nd round. And the best he could hope for would be about #7 to #13 of the 2nd round at best. If he comes back for his Junior year, ALL the experts are projecting him as a mid 1st round semi lottery pick, about #13 to #17 in 1st round of draft. Because of that Gueye is not likely to not come back, unless he gets a big NIL offer, that he accepts, in combination with IF Smith, the team, were to tick him off, or if he gets injured, or if he gets bad advice, and listens to the bad advice.

Basically, Cluff, and Solomon Ominu, are rainy day INSURANCE.

Jackson, Gueye probably won't leave, won't be permanently injured bad enough, but just in case it happens, Diongue, Jaki, Cluff, Solomon Ominu, would probably be a good enough Front Court, next season, if lost 1 or both of Gueye and Jackson.
 
Why do you assume staying another year would move him up in the draft? As often as not players drop by staying. Longer. If players aren’t drafted after their sophomore year they seem to become yesterdays news. I sure hope Jackson returns at full strength but without knowing what his surgery was for it’s to hard to say. Gueye could go either way, I hope he stays though and continues to improve.
Dion will get better, Crespin will improve new guys will come and help but the real problem could be the glaring lack of post players this year. Some teams in the PAC 12 are very big and with very solid bigs that imo is the teams we could struggle against. Luckily many teams aren’t any better off than WSU when it comes to post depth and Gueye being one of the best in the league is an obvious plus.
 
jourdand said:
Why do you assume staying another year would move him up in the draft? As often as not players drop by staying. Longer. If players aren’t drafted after their sophomore year they seem to become yesterdays news. I sure hope Jackson returns at full strength but without knowing what his surgery was for it’s to hard to say. Gueye could go either way, I hope he stays though and continues to improve.
Dion will get better, Crespin will improve new guys will come and help but the real problem could be the glaring lack of post players this year. Some teams in the PAC 12 are very big and with very solid bigs that imo is the teams we could struggle against. Luckily many teams aren’t any better off than WSU when it comes to post depth and Gueye being one of the best in the league is an obvious plus.
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I'm just not worried about next year, season.

Diongue, Jaki, Mael Crespin, Cluff, Solomon Ominu, is a GOOD ENOUGH FRONT COURT/POST PRESENCE/RIM DEFENSE/BLOCKED SHOTS/DEFENSE/SCORING, etc, even without both of Gueye, Jackson next year, season.

I think Gueye, Diongue, Jaki, Mael Crespin, Rodman, is a GOOD ENOUGH FRONT COURT this season.

They may struggle at times, early season, or against 1,2 teams. BUT OVERALL THEY WILL BE FINE, and the BACKCOURT WILL HELP CARRY THEM.

And if Jackson comes back between mid season and LATE season, so much the better, but if not, they will probably be ok.
 
Haven’t seen Cluff announced by WSU yet. Could they be waiting on another player? Assuming Chinyelu.
 
jourdand said:
Why do you assume staying another year would move him up in the draft? As often as not players drop by staying. Longer. If players aren’t drafted after their sophomore year they seem to become yesterdays news. I sure hope Jackson returns at full strength but without knowing what his surgery was for it’s to hard to say. Gueye could go either way, I hope he stays though and continues to improve.
Dion will get better, Crespin will improve new guys will come and help but the real problem could be the glaring lack of post players this year. Some teams in the PAC 12 are very big and with very solid bigs that imo is the teams we could struggle against. Luckily many teams aren’t any better off than WSU when it comes to post depth and Gueye being one of the best in the league is an obvious plus.
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I expect Mo to try out the NBA if he’s going to get drafted, even if it’s round 2.

I’m real intersted in what Bamba and Rodman do. I’d love to have them back. Tgat kind of experience will translate into wins.
 
True on Bamba and Rodman. Mo is gone to the NBA no doubt about that.
 
COUGinNCW said:
I expect Mo to try out the NBA if he’s going to get drafted, even if it’s round 2.

I’m real intersted in what Bamba and Rodman do. I’d love to have them back. Tgat kind of experience will translate into wins.
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This is Rodman's last year, senior year.

He could use his extra COVID year to come back.

But I'm not counting on that, and I think he will graduate, play overseas semi pro ball, make some money, or he will grad transfer, use his COVID year somewhere else, where he might start full time at the 3.

While Rodman's talent, skill, shooting, experience is valuable, he would probably be competing against Carlos Rosario, Jabe Mullen, Jaki, even Bamba, if Bamba plays 3 spot.

Rodman is a 3 spot man. He wouldn't, won't play the 4 spot, PF, unless injuries.

It's likely that 1 of either Jackson or Gueye comes back.

So Center would be Jackson or Gueye. PF would be Diongue or Mael Crespin or Jaki.

SF or 3 spot would be a competition between Rodman, Rosario, Jabe, Jaki, Bamba, Houinsou(French)

SG would be Bamba, Jabe, Houinsou(French), Dylan.

PG would be Powell, Houinsou, Jabe, Dylan

The 3 spot will be extremely competitive. And while that would be good for WSU, that may not be good for Rodman, and Rodman, might do better somewhere else, that might land him a overseas semi pro slot or deep bench FA G league spot.

He might probably not do that, if he stays.

So I expect either a transfer or graduation, by, for Rodman.

If Rodman stays, doesn't transfer, doesn't graduate, that would be awesome for WSU.


PG would be Powell
 
COUGinNCW said:
I expect Mo to try out the NBA if he’s going to get drafted, even if it’s round 2.

I’m real intersted in what Bamba and Rodman do. I’d love to have them back. Tgat kind of experience will translate into wins.
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Mo might declare for the draft. But unless the NBA people tell him either that mid 2nd round is the best he would get, even if he were to stay 1 more year, JR year, which would cause MO to stay in draft.

If they tell him there is a reasonable chance, semi probability that he would go about 14th to 18th in 1st round of draft, If he stays at WSU, and what he needs to work on, he probably would withdraw from draft, stay at WSU.(Also ALL THE EXPERTS are saying that IF he MO stays for his Junior year, next season at WSU, that he will go about 14th to 18th in 1st round)

If the NBA people tell him that he would go as high as bottom, last pick of 1st round, 1st pick of 2nd round, if he stays in draft, then he would stay in draft.

But if the NBA people says he will stay at #45, mid 2nd round pick, and that he will do better next year if he stays at WSU, he will withdraw from draft, stay at WSU.

The reason why is because players can slip, drop, in the draft. Because of that, even tho Gueye is currently projected #45, mid 2nd round, if it stays at that, he could theoretically slip, drop, get drafted as last pick, go undrafted.

Also the money works in such a way, that picks 1-14 in 1st round, get the BIG GUARANTEED MONEY. Picks 19-to end of 1st round still get guaranteed money, and a guaranteed contract, but it's not for millions. Picks 1-7 of 2nd round, altho don't typically get a guaranteed contract, if they are good enough, most 1-7 picks in 2nd round are usually able to swing, negotiate a semi guaranteed contract with good, ok money.

Picks 9-15 in 2nd round(picks typically before 45), while don't get guaranteed contract money, usually get non guaranteed ok money.

45+ picks in 2nd round is where the drop off, Cliff typically is. The money is usually not good, not ok, not guaranteed, and there is a chance they might not even make a roster.

So Gueye is right at the cutoff, so far. If he stays in draft, and then slips, drops to #60, or undrafted, that can, could be bad.

So if there is a reasonable chance that he can do better, move up higher in 2nd round, mid to bottom 1st round at best, then he needs to withdraw from draft and stay.

Only way that doesn't happen is if not a reasonable chance for better, or if he gets bad advice, and listens to bad advice.

The NBA people will advise him well. So absolutely he should declare for the draft, and then either stay in draft or withdraw from draft and stay at WSU based on the advice of the NBA people, and the EXPERTS.


I think there is BETWEEN ABOUT a 50% to 75% chance MO declares for draft, then withdraws from draft and stays at WSU
 
Bamba's just a junior. Going to assume he's back at this point, but he's playing in college somewhere next year.
 
Dion and Crespin are not going to play the 4 on any kind of regular basis they are both 5 men. While Gueye can and will play the 5 he is imo a much more natural 4 man. Rodman who I agree is better suited to play the 3 has played a ton at the 4 spot in the past and will continue to this year. His versatility is what makes him so valuable.

Gueye still has work to do and a lot to prove this year to maintain his NBA draft prediction but my guts says he will be gone next year, but would love to have him and Rodman back. Most of where players get drafted or move up or down is determined by other players in the draft. A player can improve his game drastically and still move down in the following year’s draft depending on who is in the draft. If this years daft is loaded with similar players to Gueye maybe he is better off waiting, but if this year the draft has fewer players like Gueye he might be better off going. Either way it’s a crapshoot. I say strike while the iron is hot if you are projected to get drafted, the opportunity might not be as good the following year.
 
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