Who is the greatest WSU bowl game quarterback?

[grahamcoug]

Yards TD Interceptions
2019 Cheez It- Gordon 351-3-0
2018 Alamo- Minshew 299-2-0
2017 Holiday- Hilinski 272-2-1
2016 Holiday- Falk 264-1-1
2015 Sun- Fallk 295-2-0
2013 New Mexico- Halliday 410-6-1
2003 Holiday- Kegel 203-2-2
2003 Rose- Gesser 239-1-2
2001 Rose- Gesser 281-1-3
1998 Rose- Leaf 331-1-1
1994 Alamo Davis 286-0-0
1992 Copper Bledsoe 476-2-1
1988 Aloha Rosenbach 388-1-1
1981 Holiday Casper 69-0-2
1931 Rose No stats available
1918 Rose No stats available

 

[kougkurt]

Interesting. Thanks.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

Not too sure about those 3 modern Rose Bowl appearances.

I'm thinking it would be hard to beat the '03 Holiday Bowl. For my money, that was our greatest bowl appearance of the modern era hands down, and I'd give Kegel his share of that. Second place for me would be Rosie's '88 Aloha bowl, though others could make a case.

 

[Coug90]

Not too sure about those 3 modern Rose Bowl appearances.

I'm thinking it would be hard to beat the '03 Holiday Bowl. For my money, that was our greatest bowl appearance of the modern era hands down, and I'd give Kegel his share of that. Second place for me would be Rosie's '88 Aloha bowl, though others could make a case.

Kegel held his own but that bowl was about the D. I think you gotta go either Minshew (capped best season ever wins wise) Bledsoe or Rosie. Toss up. If only Leaf had his 2 seconds how different this could be.

 

[Observer11]

Kegel held his own but that bowl was about the D. I think you gotta go either Minshew (capped best season ever wins wise) Bledsoe or Rosie. Toss up. If only Leaf had his 2 seconds how different this could be.

Leaf was also playing against the eventual national champion in the Granddaddy of them All, including arguably the best player in the country in Charles Woodson.

Rosie was playing in Hawaii against Houston.

Drew was playing in Tucson vs. WAC team.

 

[SaveFerris]

Leaf was also playing against the eventual national championship in the Granddaddy of them All, including arguably the best player in the country in Charles Woodson.

Plus the injury to Michael Black basically took the run game away.

 

[spongeworthy12]

What Observer and Save Ferris said.

My vote is for Leaf. We moved the ball on the #1 defense in the country like nobody else had before...and thats after suffering a case of the dropsies early on.

I too think if Black didn't get hurt its a different story.

It's ironic how we were a razor thin team and didn't suffer any major injuries until the Rose Bowl

 

[Coug90]

What Observer and Save Ferris said.

My vote is for Leaf. We moved the ball on the #1 defense in the country like nobody else had before...and thats after suffering a case of the dropsies early on.

I too think if Black didn't get hurt its a different story.

It's ironic how we were a razor thin team and didn't suffer any major injuries until the Rose Bowl

Fair enough maybe I put too much stock into winning the game. That was sorta my starting point for qualification.

 

[95coug]

Yards TD Interceptions
2019 Cheez It- Gordon 351-3-0
2018 Alamo- Minshew 299-2-0
2017 Holiday- Hilinski 272-2-1
2016 Holiday- Falk 264-1-1
2015 Sun- Fallk 295-2-0
2013 New Mexico- Halliday 410-6-1
2003 Holiday- Kegel 203-2-2
2003 Rose- Gesser 239-1-2
2001 Rose- Gesser 281-1-3
1998 Rose- Leaf 331-1-1
1994 Alamo Davis 286-0-0
1992 Copper Bledsoe 476-2-1
1988 Aloha Rosenbach 388-1-1
1981 Holiday Casper 69-0-2
1931 Rose No stats available
1918 Rose No stats available

Looking at those, I see four possible contenders. 3 were winners. Rosenbach, Bledsoe, Leaf, and Minshew pretty much carried the offense in their games. Statistically it was actually a sub-par game for Minshew - although he was near flawless when it mattered. Bledsoe was the most dominating performance, but it was against Utah...before they were today’s defensively solid Utah. Leaf did it against the toughest opponent, and without the threat of a run game, so I think I’ve got to give him the nod.

Have to point out though, among those 4, the largest margin of victory was 3 points.

A moment’s consideration for Halliday, who was dominating through 2.5 quarters. But he gets DQ’d for his part in the poor clock management and ball security that ended the game. A moment each for Gesser and Falk, our only two who appeared in multiple bowls. Unfortunately, after solid games in their first games they both had stinkers in their second. And, a moment of recognition for Chad Davis - simply approaching 300 yards represents a minor miracle for him.

 

[WASH ST A&M FAN]

Yards TD Interceptions
1931 Rose No stats available

1931 Rose Bowl = 71yds, 0 Td's, 3 Interceptions

 

[CougPatrol]

Everything about the 1997 team was best ever. That was the greatest WSU football team in school history by miles and miles.

 

[LoneStarsGhost]

Mark Rypien.

 

[billyjoecamaro]

Gotta be Leaf doing that well against this defense:

"Michigan's 1997 defense set the NCAA Division I FBS record for fewest yards allowed per pass completion (8.8 yards per completion, 100–149 completions)[61] Over the course of the 1997 season"

 

[Coug90]

Gotta be Leaf doing that well against this defense:

"Michigan's 1997 defense set the NCAA Division I FBS record for fewest yards allowed per pass completion (8.8 yards per completion, 100–149 completions)[61] Over the course of the 1997 season"

Did he really do “that well”? We scored 16 points and he threw an end zone pick. I get they were a good defense and I had forgot Black was knocked out of the game, but hard for me to give too much credit w 16 points (with that offense) and a L. If we had lost 41-35 I might feel differently.

That was my freshman year and I went to every home game and the RB, so great memories for me and yes best Coug team ever.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Did he really do “that well”? We scored 16 points and he threw an end zone pick. I get they were a good defense and I had forgot Black was knocked out of the game, but hard for me to give too much credit w 16 points (with that offense) and a L. If we had lost 41-35 I might feel differently.

That was my freshman year and I went to every home game and the RB, so great memories for me and yes best Coug team ever.

The decision to throw that ball that led to the pick in the endzone was not great and he shouldn't have forced it, but it was damned fine play by Woodson. It's amazing how high in the air he got to make that pick. Of course, he was so high that the ball hit him in the facemask.

If not for the injury to Black, we would have won that game going away, but Michigan was too good to beat without a running game.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

410-6-1 in a loss. Almost like it was foreshadowing...

 

[mikalalas]

410-6-1 in a loss. Almost like it was foreshadowing...

That was truly the best bowl game performance.

400+ yards, 6 TD's, and only 1 pick.

Yes WSU lost that game. But that really wasnt Halliday's fault.

It was the fault of the Defense, the fumble, the special teams blunder, etc.

Basically in the last 1,2,3,4 minutes of the game, WSU turned the ball over a lot, allowed so many points, and Somehow miraculously Snatched Defeat from the Jaws of HELL.

That whole team, players, coaches, etc, LET HALIDAY DOWN.

HALLIDAY WON, DOMINATED that game.

Yes Halliday threw 1 int, that contributed to losing.

But IF everybody else hadnt let Halliday down, hadnt screwed the pooch, etc, Halliday would have won.

Again, that wasnt Halliday's fault.

Now some of you might argue that it was a small bowl, and lesser competition.

But question, would Leaf, Gesser, Minshew, Bledsoe, etc, have put up 400+ yards combined with 6 passing TD's to only 1 Int, in that game?

I dont think so. I think they would have only gotten about 385 yards, 3,4 TD's, and 0,1 INT, compared to the 400, 6 TD's, 1 Int.

And I think even with Leaf, Bledsoe, Gesser, etc, that that they would have still lost that game, because of how bad everybody, the defense, special teams, coaching, etc, was in that game.

The question was, what was the BEST PERFORMANCE IN A, ANY BOWL GAME?

NOT what was the best bowl game.

Not what was the best win?

And Halliday putting up 400 yards, 6 Passing TD's, 1 int IS IN FACT THE MOST DOMINATING, BEST PERFORMANCE, NOT ONLY STATISTICALLY, BUT IN ALMOST EVERY, ANY WAY YOU MEASURE IT.

The QBR, QB rating was probably about 185, etc, compared to about 85 to 113 for Leaf, Gesser, Bledsoe, etc.

Next closest would be:

Either Bledsoe with 476 yards, 2,3 TD's in the Copper Bowl

And Leaf's 300+ 1 TD, 1 int vs Michigan

I suspect Bledsoe's QB rating would have been about 123+

And Leaf's would have been about around a 123+ QB rating as well.

And Halliday's would probably have been about a 150 to 185+ QB rating.

So Halliday had the best QB bowl performance, and its not even remotely close to even being close.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this topic. Kegel did a heck of a lot more than hold his own. It was the best punting exhibition I've ever witnessed, or ever expect to again see...and the defense was also excellent. But Kegel made the plays. It was a top effort against what was probably the 2nd highest ranked team we have played in a modern era post season (behind Michigan). If we were talking about punting exhibitions, this would be an easy choice, but the question was QB effort in a bowl. And like Coug90, my vote is partly based on winning the game. Leaf was excellent in the Rose Bowl, but he had the Fab 5 and the Fat 5 helping him. Kegel had a good supporting group, but not as good as Leaf.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

That was truly the best bowl game performance.

400+ yards, 6 TD's, and only 1 pick.

Yes WSU lost that game. But that really wasnt Halliday's fault.

It was the fault of the Defense, the fumble, the special teams blunder, etc.

Basically in the last 1,2,3,4 minutes of the game, WSU turned the ball over a lot, allowed so many points, and Somehow miraculously Snatched Defeat from the Jaws of HELL.

That whole team, players, coaches, etc, LET HALIDAY DOWN.

HALLIDAY WON, DOMINATED that game.

Yes Halliday threw 1 int, that contributed to losing.

But IF everybody else hadnt let Halliday down, hadnt screwed the pooch, etc, Halliday would have won.

Again, that wasnt Halliday's fault.

Now some of you might argue that it was a small bowl, and lesser competition.

But question, would Leaf, Gesser, Minshew, Bledsoe, etc, have put up 400+ yards combined with 6 passing TD's to only 1 Int, in that game?

I dont think so. I think they would have only gotten about 385 yards, 3,4 TD's, and 0,1 INT, compared to the 400, 6 TD's, 1 Int.

And I think even with Leaf, Bledsoe, Gesser, etc, that that they would have still lost that game, because of how bad everybody, the defense, special teams, coaching, etc, was in that game.

The question was, what was the BEST PERFORMANCE IN A, ANY BOWL GAME?

NOT what was the best bowl game.

Not what was the best win?

And Halliday putting up 400 yards, 6 Passing TD's, 1 int IS IN FACT THE MOST DOMINATING, BEST PERFORMANCE, NOT ONLY STATISTICALLY, BUT IN ALMOST EVERY, ANY WAY YOU MEASURE IT.

The QBR, QB rating was probably about 185, etc, compared to about 85 to 113 for Leaf, Gesser, Bledsoe, etc.

Next closest would be:

Either Bledsoe with 476 yards, 2,3 TD's in the Copper Bowl

And Leaf's 300+ 1 TD, 1 int vs Michigan

I suspect Bledsoe's QB rating would have been about 123+

And Leaf's would have been about around a 123+ QB rating as well.

And Halliday's would probably have been about a 150 to 185+ QB rating.

So Halliday had the best QB bowl performance, and its not even remotely close to even being close.

You completely fail to factor in quality of competition in your post. Halliday was playing against a crappy Colorado State team that gave up 40+ points in five games (including the bowl game). Leaf was playing against a Michigan team that held seven of their foes to single digits and only gave up more than 16 points one time in the entire season. Halliday had a nice day, but you might as well talk up our 48-7 against Grambling as a great day for Cougar football.

 

[Suudy]

Out of curiosity, what was the line for each of these games? Mich was -7 in '98, and we covered the spread. How'd we do on the rest?

 

[spongeworthy12]

That was truly the best bowl game performance.

400+ yards, 6 TD's, and only 1 pick.

Yes WSU lost that game. But that really wasnt Halliday's fault.

It was the fault of the Defense, the fumble, the special teams blunder, etc.

Basically in the last 1,2,3,4 minutes of the game, WSU turned the ball over a lot, allowed so many points, and Somehow miraculously Snatched Defeat from the Jaws of HELL.

That whole team, players, coaches, etc, LET HALIDAY DOWN.

HALLIDAY WON, DOMINATED that game.

Yes Halliday threw 1 int, that contributed to losing.

But IF everybody else hadnt let Halliday down, hadnt screwed the pooch, etc, Halliday would have won.

Again, that wasnt Halliday's fault.

Now some of you might argue that it was a small bowl, and lesser competition.

But question, would Leaf, Gesser, Minshew, Bledsoe, etc, have put up 400+ yards combined with 6 passing TD's to only 1 Int, in that game?

I dont think so. I think they would have only gotten about 385 yards, 3,4 TD's, and 0,1 INT, compared to the 400, 6 TD's, 1 Int.

And I think even with Leaf, Bledsoe, Gesser, etc, that that they would have still lost that game, because of how bad everybody, the defense, special teams, coaching, etc, was in that game.

The question was, what was the BEST PERFORMANCE IN A, ANY BOWL GAME?

NOT what was the best bowl game.

Not what was the best win?

And Halliday putting up 400 yards, 6 Passing TD's, 1 int IS IN FACT THE MOST DOMINATING, BEST PERFORMANCE, NOT ONLY STATISTICALLY, BUT IN ALMOST EVERY, ANY WAY YOU MEASURE IT.

The QBR, QB rating was probably about 185, etc, compared to about 85 to 113 for Leaf, Gesser, Bledsoe, etc.

Next closest would be:

Either Bledsoe with 476 yards, 2,3 TD's in the Copper Bowl

And Leaf's 300+ 1 TD, 1 int vs Michigan

I suspect Bledsoe's QB rating would have been about 123+

And Leaf's would have been about around a 123+ QB rating as well.

And Halliday's would probably have been about a 150 to 185+ QB rating.

So Halliday had the best QB bowl performance, and its not even remotely close to even being close.

"But question, would Leaf, Gesser, Minshew, Bledsoe, etc, have put up 400+ yards combined with 6 passing TD's to only 1 Int, in that game?"

Yeah they would have.

They were playing Colorado State!

Not exactly an offensive juggernaut.

And Gesser and Leaf didn't get the amount of attempts Halliday had.

Leaf had a 1,000 yd back lined up behind him!

 

[spongeworthy12]

Did he really do “that well”? We scored 16 points and he threw an end zone pick. I get they were a good defense and I had forgot Black was knocked out of the game, but hard for me to give too much credit w 16 points (with that offense) and a L. If we had lost 41-35 I might feel differently.

That was my freshman year and I went to every home game and the RB, so great memories for me and yes best Coug team ever.

That was my last semester..so I got a cheap Rosebowl ticket. I got offered a grand at the gate for it(which was a lot of money for a college student) but I declined.

Anyhow, I would say he did a great job...especially considering it was a low scoring game.

The play before the pick they did an all out blitz and McWashington was wide open in the endzone and he threw off his back foot due to the pressure and sailed it by a foot over his head.

If he hits that pass, we win the game.

 

[95coug]

Did he really do “that well”? We scored 16 points and he threw an end zone pick. I get they were a good defense and I had forgot Black was knocked out of the game, but hard for me to give too much credit w 16 points (with that offense) and a L. If we had lost 41-35 I might feel differently.

That was my freshman year and I went to every home game and the RB, so great memories for me and yes best Coug team ever.

Yes. Michigan’s D was tough. Probably the toughest we’ve faced in a bowl. And, if Woodson doesn’t make that pick, or Black doesn’t get injured, we win that game.

Kegel was just good enough to move the offense against Texas, but he leaned hard on what was probably our 2nd or 3rd best defense ever having their best game of the season on the same night of the best performance by a punter I’ve ever even heard of. Kegel gets a lot of points in my book for guts - he was beat to hell all season and still came to play - but his performance never stood out as particularly remarkable.

 

[Glad Cougar]

And Halliday putting up 400 yards, 6 Passing TD's, 1 int IS IN FACT THE MOST DOMINATING, BEST PERFORMANCE, NOT ONLY STATISTICALLY, BUT IN ALMOST EVERY, ANY WAY YOU MEASURE IT.

The QBR, QB rating was probably about 185, etc, compared to about 85 to 113 for Leaf, Gesser, Bledsoe, etc.

Next closest would be:

Either Bledsoe with 476 yards, 2,3 TD's in the Copper Bowl

And Leaf's 300+ 1 TD, 1 int vs Michigan

I suspect Bledsoe's QB rating would have been about 123+

And Leaf's would have been about around a 123+ QB rating as well.

And Halliday's would probably have been about a 150 to 185+ QB rating.

So Halliday had the best QB bowl performance, and its not even remotely close to even being close.

I actually bothered to look it up. Halliday's QBR in that game was 61.8 (he threw the ball 58 times!). And given how he fumbled at a most inopportune time in the final minutes (if Halliday just hangs on to the ball, Cougs win), I just can't count that as the best performance by a Coug QB during a bowl game. I think you DO have to consider the competition as well. My vote goes to Leaf with Kegel #2....largely for that reason. I"m pretty confident either of those guys would've killed it statistically vs. Colorado State AND win the game.

Glad Cougar

 

[Observer11]

I actually bothered to look it up. Halliday's QBR in that game was 61.8 (he threw the ball 58 times!). And given how he fumbled at a most inopportune time in the final minutes (if Halliday just hangs on to the ball, Cougs win), I just can't count that as the best performance by a Coug QB during a bowl game. I think you DO have to consider the competition as well. My vote goes to Leaf with Kegel #2....largely for that reason. I"m pretty confident either of those guys would've killed it statistically vs. Colorado State AND win the game.

Glad Cougar

Leaf might've tossed for 1000 yards in a game with the Air Raid.

 

[random soul]

Leaf might've tossed for 1000 yards in a game with the Air Raid.

I was actually pondering the other night who the best possible Air Raid quarterback would be, and I'd have to think young Marino, before his legs were totally shot. His combination of field vision, velocity, accuracy, and willingness to gamble on what he sees rather than being a 'coverage scientist,' along with his knack for sidestepping the rush, would've meant 6k yards and 60+ touchdowns in the right setting, even at the pro level if the offense was still new (like their approach was in '84 before teams started scheming to take away the Marks Bros).

 

[95coug]

I was actually pondering the other night who the best possible Air Raid quarterback would be, and I'd have to think young Marino, before his legs were totally shot. His combination of field vision, velocity, accuracy, and willingness to gamble on what he sees rather than being a 'coverage scientist,' along with his knack for sidestepping the rush, would've meant 6k yards and 60+ touchdowns in the right setting, even at the pro level if the offense was still new (like their approach was in '84 before teams started scheming to take away the Marks Bros).

I’m not sure about Marino. Seems to me he was a little too deliberate for the AR.

Moon would have done well with it. Brees probably would too.

 

[random soul]

I’m not sure about Marino. Seems to me he was a little too deliberate for the AR.

Moon would have done well with it. Brees probably would too.

I agree about Moon, though he did pretty well with the Run and Shoot as well

 

[Coug90]

I agree about Moon, though he did pretty well with the Run and Shoot as well

When you guys say “air raid” are you talking about Leachs 4 plays on a napkin? I’d be willing to bet both Brees and Marino had 4 verts, mesh routes, and option routes in their playbooks. And considering how good they were at throwing it 50-60% of the time I think they would have done well throwing it 80% of the time with a kook like Leach coaching them too.

I find it odd talking about the air raid like it’s a different sport. Any modern passing offense has similar route/read concepts so any good QB in wouldn’t look at Leachs playbook and say “I give up”.

 

[random soul]

When you guys say “air raid” are you talking about Leachs 4 plays on a napkin? I’d be willing to bet both Brees and Marino had 4 verts, mesh routes, and option routes in their playbooks. And considering how good they were at throwing it 50-60% of the time I think they would have done well throwing it 80% of the time with a kook like Leach coaching them too.

I find it odd talking about the air raid like it’s a different sport. Any modern passing offense has similar route/read concepts so any good QB in wouldn’t look at Leachs playbook and say “I give up”.

Leach's offense is BYU's old offense taken to its logical extension. The basic route combos have been around a long time. But when I say Air Raid (I can't speak for anybody else) I'm talking about throwing the ball 60 plus times a game (even Marino wasn't doing that then, it was still the 80s) and emphasizing the maximization of space, the tweaks in philosophy and personnel. Joe Gibbs ran Don Coryell's offense in Washington but nobody called it Air anything because his best teams had John Riggins, Joe Washington, and Earnest Byner pounding the rock behind a powerful offensive line that frequently employed 2 tight ends. It's the combo of scheme, personnel, and philosophy that define an offense to me, not just the routes on the cocktail napkin.

 

[cougarmike]

Yards TD Interceptions
2019 Cheez It- Gordon 351-3-0
2018 Alamo- Minshew 299-2-0
2017 Holiday- Hilinski 272-2-1
2016 Holiday- Falk 264-1-1
2015 Sun- Fallk 295-2-0
2013 New Mexico- Halliday 410-6-1
2003 Holiday- Kegel 203-2-2
2003 Rose- Gesser 239-1-2
2001 Rose- Gesser 281-1-3
1998 Rose- Leaf 331-1-1
1994 Alamo Davis 286-0-0
1992 Copper Bledsoe 476-2-1
1988 Aloha Rosenbach 388-1-1
1981 Holiday Casper 69-0-2
1931 Rose No stats available
1918 Rose No stats available

Bledsoe by far

 

[95coug]

Leach's offense is BYU's old offense taken to its logical extension. The basic route combos have been around a long time. But when I say Air Raid (I can't speak for anybody else) I'm talking about throwing the ball 60 plus times a game (even Marino wasn't doing that then, it was still the 80s) and emphasizing the maximization of space, the tweaks in philosophy and personnel. Joe Gibbs ran Don Coryell's offense in Washington but nobody called it Air anything because his best teams had John Riggins, Joe Washington, and Earnest Byner pounding the rock behind a powerful offensive line that frequently employed 2 tight ends. It's the combo of scheme, personnel, and philosophy that define an offense to me, not just the routes on the cocktail napkin.

While I largely agree with this, I don't really see McMahon as one who'd fit the Air Raid very well. Maybe my own prejudice getting in the way - I never liked him or the Bears. Always wished Payton played for someone else.

 

[random soul]

While I largely agree with this, I don't really see McMahon as one who'd fit the Air Raid very well. Maybe my own prejudice getting in the way - I never liked him or the Bears. Always wished Payton played for someone else.

Crazily enough, while McMahon was still more faux rebel image than he was anything else, he's still the best QB Chicago has had since like Sid Luckman. That says more about the Bears in general than it does about McMahon

 

[95coug]

Crazily enough, while McMahon was still more faux rebel image than he was anything else, he's still the best QB Chicago has had since like Sid Luckman. That says more about the Bears in general than it does about McMahon

To be fair, they haven’t had a decent coach or running back since then either. Their front office has spent 3 decades taking mediocre players and achieving mediocrity.

 

[etowncoug]

To be fair, they haven’t had a decent coach or running back since then either. Their front office has spent 3 decades taking mediocre players and achieving mediocrity.

Somehow Lovie Smith got them to the Super Bowl, too. One of the worst teams to get to the big game.

 

[95coug]

Somehow Lovie Smith got them to the Super Bowl, too. One of the worst teams to get to the big game.

Yeah, with Rex Grossman under center. Still trying to understand how that happened.

 

[random soul]

To be fair, they haven’t had a decent coach or running back since then either. Their front office has spent 3 decades taking mediocre players and achieving mediocrity.

Neal Anderson gave them a few good years before injuries got him (That early 80s Florida Gator backfield was nuts: Anderson, John L Williams, James Jones, and Lorenzo Hampton, who for some reason didn't pan out in Miami but might have been the most talented of the 4)

 

[random soul]

And sometimes with the Bears they seem to make QBs worse. Harbaugh was better in other places than he was in Chicago