Wilner: "no formal departure notices have been provided..."

[ttowncoug]

"The bylaws indicate that any school providing a “notice of departure” relinquishes its voting rights. That seems simple enough, except the 10 outbound members have not provided the Pac-12 with formal departure notices, according to a source."

Pac-12 legal delay: WSU and OSU hoped to proceed quickly, but conference office slow to move

The conference is running weeks behind in terms of sorting through the legal rubble.

www.mercurynews.com

 

[dgibbons]

Not surprisingly, the departing schools are not as dumb as has been portrayed. Odd that Wilner did not include the provision of the bylaws regarding "notice of departure."

 

[longtimecoug]

Not surprisingly, the departing schools are not as dumb as has been portrayed. Odd that Wilner did not include the provision of the bylaws regarding "notice of departure."

Are they going to try the legal hair splitting approach?

 

[ttowncoug]

Not surprisingly, the departing schools are not as dumb as has been portrayed. Odd that Wilner did not include the provision of the bylaws regarding "notice of departure."

I would hope that the conference has issued the departing schools some sort of "implied notice" or some legal document that says "we didn't get your resignation, but we are letting you know we are considering you a termed employee."

 

[CougSinceBirth]

For the lawyers here...

Wouldn't announcing you're leaving for another conference via Twitter, etc. be permissible to be used as "formal notice of departure?" Especially when presidents are on the record talking about said moves, too?

 

[wazzucougs96]

How are official press releases from the schools not explicit notices of intent?

 

[moxeecoug]

For the lawyers here...

Wouldn't announcing you're leaving for another conference via Twitter, etc. be permissible to be used as "formal notice of departure?" Especially when presidents are on the record talking about said moves, too?

Along with their AD’s driveling on about what’s best for the student athletes with these moves?

 

[bostoncoug]

Along with signing deals with new conferences

 

[Stretch 74]

How are official press releases from the schools not explicit notices of intent?

How many times have you seen a pro team put out a press release or notice of a press conference for the next day to "Announce the signing of free agent (fill in the blank with name)? Hey you dumb bastards-you just DID announce the signing of the athlete.

Same thing here- once you say you are leaving the conference for a new league, you just DID provide notice. Absent anything spelled out in the conference bylaws specifically detailing exactly how it is to be done, common sense and logic tells us that notice to leave actually IS notice to leave.

Of course, common sense and logic does not always prevail in the legal system.

 

[ttowncoug]

... if the interpretation/meaning is "notice is only required and only applies if you are leaving or withdrawing from the conference before 8/1/2024"... it changes the math.

I suspect this is why Schulz has said there is "no windfall."

 

[dgibbons]

Are they going to try the legal hair splitting approach?

Formal requirements are formal requirements. If you tell your 23 year girlfriend that you will put her in your will as a beneficiary, but never do, she's not in your will.

 

[dgibbons]

For the lawyers here...

Wouldn't announcing you're leaving for another conference via Twitter, etc. be permissible to be used as "formal notice of departure?" Especially when presidents are on the record talking about said moves, too?

The bylaws are the governing document and hopefully shed light on that.

 

[dgibbons]

I found the quote below in one of Wilner's mailbags. This is a just part of one section, and I certainly would want to read the entirety of the bylaws. However, the part at the end about "even if the member is then a member of another conference...." and the August 1, 2024 date sound like they are favorable to WSU and OSU. I believe all of the departing schools will want to be members of their new conferences before 8/1/24. The decision a court may have to make if no formal notice of withdrawal is made (either never made or not made before 8/1/24), is whether the actions taken by the departing schools constitute a constructive withdrawal. The "member of another conference" indicates to me that if you leave you forfeit. But again, this is just some cherry picked text from one section of the bylaws.

Section 3 addresses “Withdrawal”:

“ … if any member does deliver a notice of withdrawal prior to August 1, 2024, in violation of this chapter, the Conference shall be entitled to an injunction and other equitable relief to prevent such breach, and if a court of competent jurisdiction shall deny the Conference such injunctive relief, the Conference shall be entitled to retain all the media and sponsorship rights in the multi-player video distribution (MPVD) and telecommunications/wireless categories of the member purporting to withdraw through August 1, 2024, even if the member is then a member of another conference …”

 

[moondawgie]

I've found the quote below in one of Wilner's mailbags. This is a just part of one section, and I certainly would want to read the entirety of the bylawss. However, the part at the end about "even if the member is then a member of another conference...." and the August 1, 2024 date sound like they are favorable to WSU and OSU. I believe all of the departing schools will want to be members of their new conferences before 8/1/24. The decision a court may have to make is if no formal notice of withdrawal is made (either never made or not made before 8/1/24), do the actions taken by the departing schools constitute a constructive withdrawal. The "member of another conference" indicates to me that if you leave you forfeit. But again, this is just some cherry picked text from one section of the bylaws.

Section 3 addresses “Withdrawal”:

“ … if any member does deliver a notice of withdrawal prior to August 1, 2024, in violation of this chapter, the Conference shall be entitled to an injunction and other equitable relief to prevent such breach, and if a court of competent jurisdiction shall deny the Conference such injunctive relief, the Conference shall be entitled to retain all the media and sponsorship rights in the multi-player video distribution (MPVD) and telecommunications/wireless categories of the member purporting to withdraw through August 1, 2024, even if the member is then a member of another conference …”

"Washington and Oregon have been officially voted into the Big Ten Conference, the league announced Friday. The Huskies and Ducks will become the Big Ten’s 17th and 18th members effective Aug. 2, 2024."

Washington and Oregon to join Big Ten Conference in 2024

Washington and Oregon have officially been voted into the Big Ten beginning in 2024, the conference announced Friday.

www.seattletimes.com

 

[ttowncoug]

"Washington and Oregon have been officially voted into the Big Ten Conference, the league announced Friday. The Huskies and Ducks will become the Big Ten’s 17th and 18th members effective Aug. 2, 2024."

Washington and Oregon to join Big Ten Conference in 2024

Washington and Oregon have officially been voted into the Big Ten beginning in 2024, the conference announced Friday.

www.seattletimes.com

I suspect this date is why we have the tempered response with regard to any "windfall."

 

[dgibbons]

"Washington and Oregon have been officially voted into the Big Ten Conference, the league announced Friday. The Huskies and Ducks will become the Big Ten’s 17th and 18th members effective Aug. 2, 2024."

Washington and Oregon to join Big Ten Conference in 2024

Washington and Oregon have officially been voted into the Big Ten beginning in 2024, the conference announced Friday.

www.seattletimes.com

As stated, the issue a court may have to decide is whether the actions taken by the departing schools constitute constructive notice.

 

[ttowncoug]

As stated, the issue a court may have to decide is whether the actions taken by the departing schools constitute constructive notice.

The other thing of note is I didn't see any venue requirement...meaning if WSU tries the case in Whitman County they are likely to get a hometown opinion.

 

[PeteTheChop]

... if the interpretation/meaning is "notice is only required and only applies if you are leaving or withdrawing from the conference before 8/1/2024"... it changes the math.

I suspect this is why Schulz has said there is "no windfall."

Where are you getting this from T-Town?

Wouldn't this be a contradiction to Dr. Schultz telling Brand X that he, Chun and the their counsel would be "fighting the good fight" to make sure WSU and OSU were compensated for their new circumstances?

 

[PeteTheChop]

As stated, the issue a court may have to decide is whether the actions taken by the departing schools constitute constructive notice.

D-Gibb, but wouldn't a judge see through any shenaningans?

USC and UCLA could have left in 2019, but sat out their official withdrawal paperwork until August 2, 2024 to avoid any penalties (per some of the interpretations being made here)

 

[ttowncoug]

Where are you getting this from T-Town?

Wouldn't this be a contradiction to Dr. Schultz telling Brand X that he, Chun and the their counsel would be "fighting the good fight" to make sure WSU and OSU were compensated for their new circumstances?

Schulz has said (on brand-x) they weren't preparing for a windfall. This (my read) was in reference to the Beavs and Cougs keeping a disproportionate share of the media money. (which is what is implied her w/ the notice provision).

Schulz and WSU likely are working on some other angle, which remains to be seen what that entails.

 

[425cougfan]

D-Gibb, but wouldn't a judge see through any shenaningans?

USC and UCLA could have left in 2019, but sat out their official withdrawal paperwork until August 2, 2024 to avoid any penalties (per some of the interpretations being made here)

No. Most people don't realize that the law tends to be quite technical in practice, especially in complex matters involving (ostensibly) sophisticated actors, like here. It's not like TV, where the guy or gal who makes the most emotionally compelling oral argument wins. It's usually technical. That language wasn't drafted well--perhaps not coincidentally, if you catch my drift--and there would have to be all kinds of factual resolution and analysis to see how this plays out, not a common sense interpretation of the likely intent of some excised provisions of the governing docs held by some guys on a football message board.

 

[95coug]

No. Most people don't realize that the law tends to be quite technical in practice, especially in complex matters involving (ostensibly) sophisticated actors, like here. It's not like TV, where the guy or gal who makes the most emotionally compelling oral argument wins. It's usually technical. That language wasn't drafted well--perhaps not coincidentally, if you catch my drift--and there would have to be all kinds of factual resolution and analysis to see how this plays out, not a common sense interpretation of the likely intent of some excised provisions of the governing docs held by some guys on a football message board.

The other complicating factor is that this is multi-jurisdictional, so getting overly detailed may not have been possible due to the vagaries of various state laws.

But it’s hard to imagine a scenario where having press conferences to announce you’re joining another conference, then doing interviews and social media posts about it doesn’t count as notice.

 

[sylean]

"The bylaws indicate that any school providing a “notice of departure” relinquishes its voting rights. That seems simple enough, except the 10 outbound members have not provided the Pac-12 with formal departure notices, according to a source."

Pac-12 legal delay: WSU and OSU hoped to proceed quickly, but conference office slow to move

The conference is running weeks behind in terms of sorting through the legal rubble.

www.mercurynews.com

if they made any arrangements with other schools or conferences, to me that's an implied contract.....whether they sign the divorce papers or not, they still got married to someone else.

 

[425cougfan]

The other complicating factor is that this is multi-jurisdictional, so getting overly detailed may not have been possible due to the vagaries of various state laws.

But it’s hard to imagine a scenario where having press conferences to announce you’re joining another conference, then doing interviews and social media posts about it doesn’t count as notice.

100% with you except to say it can be surprising how technical even something like constructive notice can be. There have been lawsuits fought for years over things like a missing Oxford comma, with billions of dollars in today's money on the line. I know it seems super clear, but the provision doesn't say that if the conference receives notice of a member's impending departure, then [result], it says that upon the "delivery" (another concept that is legal) of notice, then conditional results occur. I'm not a litigator but I do draft stuff like this to avoid issues.

 

[PeteTheChop]

@425cougfan
@95coug
@ttowncoug
@dgibbons
@CougEd
@Flatlandcoug
@mikalalas

1. What's the likeliest outcome for WSU+OSU here:

• Windfall: $200M (or more) each
• Solid Payday: $50-199M
• Helpful: $5-49M
• Peanuts: $500k-4.9M
• Crumbs/Nothing: $0-499k

2. Are the "Disloyal-10" really just aiming for a settlement with the Cougs and Beavs in an effort to repair their images and put this sordid chapter in the rearview mirror OR do they really believe that they've done nothing wrong?

 

[Stretch 74]

@425cougfan
@95coug
@ttowncoug
@dgibbons
@CougEd
@Flatlandcoug
@mikalalas

1. What's the likeliest outcome for WSU+OSU here:

• Windfall: $200M (or more) each
• Solid Payday: $50-199M
• Helpful: $5-49M
• Peanuts: $500k-4.9M
• Crumbs/Nothing: $0-499k

2. Are the "Disloyal-10" really just aiming for a settlement with the Cougs and Beavs in an effort to repair their images and put this sordid chapter in the rearview mirror OR do they really believe that they've done nothing wrong?

They will convince themselves that they have done nothing wrong. It is like the guy that convinces himself it is okay go nail a hooker just because his wife didn't feel like having sex a couple times last week.

 

[dgibbons]

@425cougfan
@95coug
@ttowncoug
@dgibbons
@CougEd
@Flatlandcoug
@mikalalas

1. What's the likeliest outcome for WSU+OSU here:

• Windfall: $200M (or more) each
• Solid Payday: $50-199M
• Helpful: $5-49M
• Peanuts: $500k-4.9M
• Crumbs/Nothing: $0-499k

2. Are the "Disloyal-10" really just aiming for a settlement with the Cougs and Beavs in an effort to repair their images and put this sordid chapter in the rearview mirror OR do they really believe that they've done nothing wrong?

I don't think anyone has enough information to opine regarding the most likely outcome. But I will say, regarding your 2. I doubt any of the departing 10 think they need to repair their images, or why they would think they've done anything wrong. This is a business dispute.

 

[PeteTheChop]

They will convince themselves that they have done nothing wrong. It is like the guy that convinces himself it is okay go nail a hooker just because his wife didn't feel like having sex a couple times last week.

Imagine being a UW or UO administrator and willfully doing something (change conferences) that could jeopardize your biggest rivalry

 

[dgibbons]

The other complicating factor is that this is multi-jurisdictional, so getting overly detailed may not have been possible due to the vagaries of various state laws.

But it’s hard to imagine a scenario where having press conferences to announce you’re joining another conference, then doing interviews and social media posts about it doesn’t count as notice.

I'm assuming the Pac-12 is a nonprofit corporation, probably incorporated under California law. So, the law of the State of California is probably your governing law.

 

[dgibbons]

D-Gibb, but wouldn't a judge see through any shenaningans?

USC and UCLA could have left in 2019, but sat out their official withdrawal paperwork until August 2, 2024 to avoid any penalties (per some of the interpretations being made here)

Such as what? Adhering to the letter of the bylaws, when WSU would be asking the judge to basically conclude that although the departing schools did not provide the formal notice of withdrawal, the court should conclude they did so anyway? Your "shenanigans" are a matter of perspective.

 

[KRUSTYtheCOUG]

The other complicating factor is that this is multi-jurisdictional, so getting overly detailed may not have been possible due to the vagaries of various state laws.

But it’s hard to imagine a scenario where having press conferences to announce you’re joining another conference, then doing interviews and social media posts about it doesn’t count as notice.

To moondawgies point...this sentence in the contract/bylaws:

"...does deliver a notice of withdrawal prior to August 1, 2024,"

I take this to mean actual withdrawal prior to August 1, 2024. none of these departing teams is actually LEAVING the conference prior to the end of the agreement. They will have fulfilled their contractual agreement by playing out this current season and this current schedule.

The term "notice" refers to the ACTUAL withdrawal, not merely the INTENTION to withdraw.

USC, UCLA, UO and UW won't officially be members of the B1G until August 2, 2024 and that's why they have no vote over there currently.

"Notice of withdrawal" in this context MUST mean to actually leave before August 1, 2024, which none of them have done. Unfortunately I think this moondawg guy is right. I am not expecting anything here to go out way. That's all I have to say about that.

 

[longtimecoug]

How many times have you seen a pro team put out a press release or notice of a press conference for the next day to "Announce the signing of free agent (fill in the blank with name)? Hey you dumb bastards-you just DID announce the signing of the athlete.

Same thing here- once you say you are leaving the conference for a new league, you just DID provide notice. Absent anything spelled out in the conference bylaws specifically detailing exactly how it is to be done, common sense and logic tells us that notice to leave actually IS notice to leave.

Of course, common sense and logic does not always prevail in the legal system.

M

To moondawgies point...this sentence in the contract/bylaws:

"...does deliver a notice of withdrawal prior to August 1, 2024,"

I take this to mean actual withdrawal prior to August 1, 2024. none of these departing teams is actually LEAVING the conference prior to the end of the agreement. They will have fulfilled their contractual agreement by playing out this current season and this current schedule.

The term "notice" refers to the ACTUAL withdrawal, not merely the INTENTION to withdraw.

USC, UCLA, UO and UW won't officially be members of the B1G until August 2, 2024 and that's why they have no vote over there currently.

"Notice of withdrawal" in this context MUST mean to actually leave before August 1, 2024, which none of them have done. Unfortunately I think this moondawg guy is right. I am not expecting anything here to go out way. That's all I have to say about that.

Moondawg has also stated that he hopes the 10 are nice to us and osu when they dissolve the conference. They no longer have a vote, so they will not be dissolving the conference. Though that may be the final outcome of this thing

 

[ttowncoug]

M

Moondawg has also stated that he hopes the 10 are nice to us and osu when they dissolve the conference. They no longer have a vote, so they will not be dissolving the conference. Though that may be the final outcome of this thing

The Pac-12 brand is far better than the MWC. The only reason NOT to keep the Pac-12 going to is if the defectors said they will join the conference again in 5 years.

I don't see that happening.

The best bet for more media money is the ACC. If FSU et. al. bail (they will), the ACC west will take shape to give Cal/Stanford schools in their division.

 

[dgibbons]

To moondawgies point...this sentence in the contract/bylaws:

"...does deliver a notice of withdrawal prior to August 1, 2024,"

I take this to mean actual withdrawal prior to August 1, 2024. none of these departing teams is actually LEAVING the conference prior to the end of the agreement. They will have fulfilled their contractual agreement by playing out this current season and this current schedule.

The term "notice" refers to the ACTUAL withdrawal, not merely the INTENTION to withdraw.

USC, UCLA, UO and UW won't officially be members of the B1G until August 2, 2024 and that's why they have no vote over there currently.

"Notice of withdrawal" in this context MUST mean to actually leave before August 1, 2024, which none of them have done. Unfortunately I think this moondawg guy is right. I am not expecting anything here to go out way. That's all I have to say about that.

Not quite. Notice of withdrawal is serving the document that is the notice of withdrawal, stating the member will leave prior to 8/1/24.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

Not quite. Notice of withdrawal is serving the document that is the notice of withdrawal, stating the member will leave prior to 8/1/24.

Thank you.

I've yet to find the definition of "notice" as its referred to here to be defined as "actual action or doing". Not sure why or how those two came to that conclusion.