At least he has some blood moving through his veins. Even though I disagree with the aim of his venom… at least he has some passion!
WSU fans did their part vs. Portland State
- Thread starter PeteTheChop
- Start date
They have never been given a reason to care. The players don't care, even when the fans do show up.
No, the team is letting the fans and students down, and has been doing so since 2004.
Chicken, meet egg.
So what, in an ideal world, would be the solution to this? We can only control our OWN actions. So we support, we go to games, we make the day fun.
I will say, the one thing that WSU really misses the boat on, is tailgating. We hope the practice field "activities" are enough to draw and IMHO, it isn't. We need to make Gameday at Martin, a party. Right now, it's far from it.
It really isn't chicken and egg. It is sports, fans come to see a winning team. It is a universal truth.
And the tailgating scene at Martin is awesome if you actually make the effort, but most of the fans don't. Tons of premium tailgate space goes unused every single game. I know this because I see it first hand every game when I am tailgating.
There is nothing on a ticket that says you can only show up if the team is winning. EVEN when we are winning at halftime people leave. This is a culture problem. A coach can't fix that. That's something the fans have to decide to fix. If we have a perpetual wait and see attitude we'll be waiting forever because teams that have strong fan bases that are there always bounce back, but fans like ours...forget it.
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srchat: School was in, but it seemed like lots of students took advantage of the Labor Day weekend opportunity to go home, especially after the first half. Weather was awful, attendance was worse."
How inspiring for the players...glad we could give them that energy...
Oh what's that...they played uninspired...they had no energy the second half... no shit...imagine that.
Oh shit, they are a crappy team coming off a 3-9 season, 12-25 in the past 3 years, and 21-65 in the past 7 years. No wonder they need fans to help them beat a BOTTOM FEEDING FCS TEAM.
Stop making excuses for a lousy, broken football program. Only a team full guys who do not care could lose that game.
I've seen it at WSU. But when we are making analogies to other programs, I just don't see it. I've been around quite a few other programs around the nation. WSU doesnt do much to infuse the tailgating experience. And cripes, just inside Martin, we JUST got alcohol back on the menu...
Why should they care the fans don't.
- Ask yourself how motivated do you think it is for players to come out and see the stadium empty at half time.
Look at this hypocrisy...
-It's not okay for the players to make an excuse about the weather...but it's okay for the fans to?
-It's not okay for the players to not show up against portland state... but it's okay for the fans not to show up for portland state?
Loser Fan Base yields Loser Program. That's the truth. Get a new coach. Get a new AD but it will never change. Because the fans are losers and if we have loser fans we'll always be a loser program.
I am still there every game, but I cannot bring myself to be mad at anyone who chooses to spend their time and money on something that provides them a better or more pleasurable experience.
WSU has gagged more wins away in front of sell out crowds at Martin than I care to remember, but surely the fans are to blame for that too, right?
WSU destroyed Portland State last year in front of a half empty stadium. But this year it is the fan's fault? Please.
It makes a giant different. Half empty stadium is better than empty stadium, but still our fans are a joke either way.
The fans shouldn't even BE a discussion point.
While other fan bases have the MUSS, and the 12th Man we have...
the POSSE
You mean Palouse Posse? oh no....no that was a long time ago...
We have the NEW Posse.
Piece
Of
Shit
Students
Exiting at Halftime
Welcome to the Millennial POSSE at Washington State.
You clearly weren't paying attention last year when our students bailed at halftime and the team still rolled to victory over PSU. Stop passing the buck on to the students. It was the coaches and players that shit the bed. No one else.
'Tron must have crazy low self-esteem if he not only believes he - the fan - is the cause of our program's woes, but is actually to the point of cursing out fellow posters who dare to challenge that insane theory. That kind of relentless guilt and self-abasement is reminiscent of vintage Catholicism.
Anyway, to test his theory, I looked at the most recent free data available from the NCAA, which was from 2013. I looked at 790 (!) games from that season where that was a true home team (i.e., not a neutral field) and ran a number of correlations. As it turns out, the correlation between home attendance and home wins is - wait for it...
0.189 or 18.9%
This is well within the realm of statistical noise. Not only that, but most simplistic correlations are reduced even further when thrown into a proper regression model where more explanatory variables can be considered. In my professional life I've seen simple correlations of 70%+ drop below 10% (and out of the model) when you look bigger picture, as with a regression. If that's what happens to 70% correlations, what do you think happens to 18.9% correlations?
'Tron - the WSU football record does not hinge on fans. Give it up. If you want to curse fellow fans out for not attending and not donating like you do, go ahead. Just know that it's more for your emotional gratification that it is a meaningful rallying cry. (And don't curse me - I'm a donor, CAF member, and will be @Rutgers this weekend cheering - probably pointlessly).
Switching on my psychologist's cap for a moment, 'Tron's mechanism to cope with the unending tragedy of WSU football is to look inward (his own attendance, donations and support) to explain the program's - and his life's - travails. This allows him to continually experience the bottomless pit of despair that is WSU football while still feeling that he is in control of the situation. I'd be interested to know what other things he blames himself for in an attempt to rationalize incessant failure without losing his sense of empowerment.
Anyway, to test his theory, I looked at the most recent free data available from the NCAA, which was from 2013. I looked at 790 (!) games from that season where that was a true home team (i.e., not a neutral field) and ran a number of correlations. As it turns out, the correlation between home attendance and home wins is - wait for it...
0.189 or 18.9%
This is well within the realm of statistical noise. Not only that, but most simplistic correlations are reduced even further when thrown into a proper regression model where more explanatory variables can be considered. In my professional life I've seen simple correlations of 70%+ drop below 10% (and out of the model) when you look bigger picture, as with a regression. If that's what happens to 70% correlations, what do you think happens to 18.9% correlations?
'Tron - the WSU football record does not hinge on fans. Give it up. If you want to curse fellow fans out for not attending and not donating like you do, go ahead. Just know that it's more for your emotional gratification that it is a meaningful rallying cry. (And don't curse me - I'm a donor, CAF member, and will be @Rutgers this weekend cheering - probably pointlessly).
Switching on my psychologist's cap for a moment, 'Tron's mechanism to cope with the unending tragedy of WSU football is to look inward (his own attendance, donations and support) to explain the program's - and his life's - travails. This allows him to continually experience the bottomless pit of despair that is WSU football while still feeling that he is in control of the situation. I'd be interested to know what other things he blames himself for in an attempt to rationalize incessant failure without losing his sense of empowerment.
This blame the fan stuff is about as motivating as having 'skin in the game'.
The fans have been skinned. Enough already.
The fans have been skinned. Enough already.
There is a direct correlation between fans and false starts, energy on the field, and game atmosphere.
Here read about the Muss. Just read about them.
They take pride in every false start they help create. Fans DO have an effect on the game.
There is a second reason. It is called their phone. Things now are more interactive. Like it or not, that is a factor.
Do you want to win or do you want to get false starts?
I want to win, and the numbers suggest I can't meaningfully affect that by being there or not being there.
This is a full-on delusion; like the spotlight effect in psychology. Everybody's watching you, 'Tron.
Nobody really should donate anymore ever. I'm not sending my money so lazy ass students can leave at halftime. The students don't deserve any support. I'll donate to them and help them when I see them do something for me. That's the attitude right? That's the Coug way now isn't it.
Why should I give money to WSU for the endowment fund. What are they going to walk out of class halfway through? No I'll give when I see some results. It's too wet for me to donate today call back later.
Good watch me call out all this crap.
What role do fans play? If they have zero effect then don't have stands at all. There's no reason to have it. There's no reason to have a student section. There is no reason have loud speakers or anything.
Fans play a roll.
Only idiot lazy cougs think otherwise.
You mean the team that has a student section that knows what to do? That cares about their team and their school?
Hard for me to imagine you going through 790 games, but thanks for doing it. Can you be a bit clearer about what you mean by a correlation between home attendance and home wins? Do you mean just the simple correlation between reported attendance (not percentage of capacity) and whether the home team won or not?
Their student section never looked like that until Urban Meyer showed up in SLC. Now they have been winning for 10+ years, including 2 BCS bowl victories. Funny how that gets students to care and be engaged.
They went 5-7 twice and it still looked like that in 2014 when they went 9-4. We aren't even giving a chance to rebound or supporting anything. We are waiting for 9-4 to show up and that's stupid. It will never arrive if we wait for it.
As an aside, I noticed that Boise State had a lot of empty seats in the upper deck corners when they played UW...against their former coach...with what looked like a decent weather evening. BSU has been a top 20 team for many years now too.
I only bring this up because I have to wonder if more and more people prefer staying home to watch games on their HD 65"+ televisions... while sitting on their nice warm, comfy recliner... with a few beers... and a plate of chips/salsa next to them. Just sayin'...
You make your choices on whatever criteria you like. I stated my peace on the disconnect between WSU athletics and the emotional attachment of contributing time and/or money several weeks ago. Anyone who says they are giving of either simply from pure benevolence isn't being honest with themselves. There is always something received in return.
At this juncture, and based on several years of same old, same old, there are other options more appealing than participating wholeheartedly in the definition of insanity.
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Yes, there were a lot of people there, but I was surprised given the circumstances that there were any empty seats.
What's insane is expecting a team that watches its fans leave at halftime (WHEN THEY ARE WINNING) go out and play inspired football with high energy.
They won't. They never will.
And that doesn't matter who the coach is. Who the ad is. Who the players are. This is a bigger problem. This is an attitude problem.
I'll get back to Chip once I know more about that study he ran, but in the meantime, the following seems right to me:
- Acting like the presence / absence of a good crowd means absolutely nothing is pretty silly. Without suggesting the atmosphere in any moderately-sized stadium with non-psychotic fans is anything liked a packed CLink atmosphere, why do Seahawks fans take pride in being so loud, and why does the team track false starts? Why are there quotes all the time from players talking about why they feed off the energy of the crowd? Why do nearly all football teams at all levels play better at home than on the road overall? Is it really the travel, which in many cases isn't a huge deal?
Even just being in the stands myself in a packed house at a big game -- and yes, even while sober -- I get fired up enough to have fleeting thoughts of wanting to go out there and tackle those bastards on the opposing team. You'd think the guys actually playing the game might feel something too in that scenario that they don't get from a dead stadium.
- My personal bias is that there's more to motivation (or a lack thereof) than many want to admit. I can see how looking out and seeing empty stands would be de-motivating.
- This in no way is saying that the subpar crowd on Saturday justifies losing to Portland State or the level of effort that we saw on the field.
In other words, my take is that the truth is somewhere between the extremes here. The team should have internal motivation, and you think they would given the circumstances (work their asses off all year to only get 12 or 13 chances to play per season), but I have a hard time believing that there's no difference between an absent crowd and a packed house that's backing you.
- Acting like the presence / absence of a good crowd means absolutely nothing is pretty silly. Without suggesting the atmosphere in any moderately-sized stadium with non-psychotic fans is anything liked a packed CLink atmosphere, why do Seahawks fans take pride in being so loud, and why does the team track false starts? Why are there quotes all the time from players talking about why they feed off the energy of the crowd? Why do nearly all football teams at all levels play better at home than on the road overall? Is it really the travel, which in many cases isn't a huge deal?
Even just being in the stands myself in a packed house at a big game -- and yes, even while sober -- I get fired up enough to have fleeting thoughts of wanting to go out there and tackle those bastards on the opposing team. You'd think the guys actually playing the game might feel something too in that scenario that they don't get from a dead stadium.
- My personal bias is that there's more to motivation (or a lack thereof) than many want to admit. I can see how looking out and seeing empty stands would be de-motivating.
- This in no way is saying that the subpar crowd on Saturday justifies losing to Portland State or the level of effort that we saw on the field.
In other words, my take is that the truth is somewhere between the extremes here. The team should have internal motivation, and you think they would given the circumstances (work their asses off all year to only get 12 or 13 chances to play per season), but I have a hard time believing that there's no difference between an absent crowd and a packed house that's backing you.
Tron is just blaming the fans now because his famous Leach is Building a Machinine declaration and his pie chart theories didn't pan out.
I still believe he's putting the parts in to make us successful, but this goes beyond Leach. this goes back beyond Wulff. This is a cultural problem that if it isn't addressed it will never get better. Ever. It's a huge huge problem, and it needs to be fixed. It doesn't matter who the AD or coach is. This is a major problem.
And do I think if this was fixed would it have helped Wulff. Yes. Would it help Leach. Yes. Would it help anyone who is the coach. Absolutely. This is a must fix issue.
I made a comment several weeks ago (which was largely ignored...maybe rightfully so) that the irony of all the additional millions of dollars that have been infused into our league due to the television contract may in fact make it more difficult, not less, for WSU to excel in football in the coming years.
Sure, we were able to make desperately needed facilities improvements and pay our coach more competitively with all the new cash, but the stakes are higher for everyone. This is not lost on all the other schools who place a high priority on winning in football. They are no dummies. They want more of this bigger cash pie. They cannot afford to fail because that is too daunting to face.
It may be a TV thing, but that doesn't explain the students. I think I'm angriest at them more than anything. As a student we always felt like the alumni and the commuters were the lazy ones. Now it looks like the students are the worst and I don't know how that happened, but it was before Leach got here...before maybe even Wulff...whenever it started THAT was when Cougar football really died.
I think your point about the students has some merit. I don't "get" this younger generation in many ways. I think this "is there an app for that?"/video game generation has a different way of looking at their spare time. Young people have always tended toward narcissism, but I think this one has taken it to a new level...and don't have the need to, or patience for, supporting a team that isn't entertaining them (ie winning). Just a thought. I could be totally off base.
You are spot on, 425. I think Tron is hitting the emotional roller coaster pretty hard right now ( I did earlier today, as well… blush…
) but I'd say the difference between you and him is pretty slim. I only wish people would realize the AC2014 and PSU2015 are just different games, different years, different players. Why take anything for granted? Hit the PSU game like it was USC, have fun and enjoy?! Half of the reason we enjoy WSU is to support them.
You are spot on, 425. I think Tron is hitting the emotional roller coaster pretty hard right now ( I did earlier today, as well… blush…
I'm just furious today because I got a call from a friend who was at the game and he told me how bad it was The weather was terrible, but there is no excuse for how those kids bailed after halftime, and then wondering why they were so flat and lacked energy.
I'm angry because I've always supported WSU as much as I possibility can being far away. Most of us alums are away from Pullman. Cougar football is what connects us back, and when I see and hear about how rotten and pathetic our fan support is in Pullman. That's inexcusable. Here I am working my a.ss off to give back to the school I love... to support those students and they treat their fellow students and team like that?
I'm not giving the coaches a free pass. I'm pissed just like everybody else at this.
But the one thing the students can control. The one thing they actually have a part in they are failing at, and they deserve my anger. It's so much of a struggle for our team to get it together..why on earth would you make it harder on them instead of easier. Why would you made them walk out that tunnel to your empty seat. Why would you do it if we are winning?!
Yes. CFBStats.com used to provide this data for free - now they charge thousands for the entire suite of statistical data. The last year they provided it for free was 2013; lucky for me, I saved it going back to 2006.
Originally I intended to run a regression model in SPSS to understand which variables impacted which other variables, but the data hygiene process took so long just to get scores by game (and to remove neutral site games as that would adversely affect the implications) that I ran a correlation instead. 790 games is still a huge sample to help answer the question, and that showed a 0.189 relationship between home wins (binary) and attendance (continuous). Again, this is statistical noise.
If you want to talk about false starts (e.g.), that's another issue. Theoretically, causing false starts would help you win games, but at the end of the day, do you win games? A simple correlation strongly suggests NO. Your point about it having *some* effect and citing the Seahawks is well taken; however, there is such a big difference between a stadium + fanbase combination (Clink) that can completely paralyze another team's ability to communicate with one another, and an open-air horseshoe college stadium which could never have that effect if it were filled with forty-thousand colicky, screaming infants.
It's also worth noting that, while Seattle has always had decent football fans, success did not follow. The fan base has doubled as a result of their success and so has the noise. If great Seattle fans were going to cause success, it would have happened more often than 2005 and 2012-2014.
Regarding Boise State attendance, here's a neat article:
Boise State Struggling to Find Answer to Attendance Issue (September 2014)
