What is Due for WSU?

[Coug95man2]

So what has CML done? Not necessarily with WSU but within other parts of football? This article is pretty intriguing. Nothing to earth-shattering but interesting to see the increasing growth of this "system".

http://espn.go.com/blog/big12/post/_/id/102749/air-raids-rise-in-big-12-still-inspired-by-mike-leach

It begs the question, what is due for WSU? What do I mean? 7 out of the Top 13 Offenses in FBS ran some sort of Air Raid, last year. TCU is coming into this season with an enormous amount of press, bringing back 10 out of the 11 players on the O and not one of them slouches. To think TCU will play in the championship, wouldn't be a stretch and they run a very similar Air Raid system as WSU.
So to go back, what is Due for WSU? With a QB that has been brought in and "groomed" by CML (one or both that seems to be willing to go to the backs more and now is being said will roll out more, as well), a returning Oline, a stable of WR's that are fairly incredible… I see some serious, serious points going up this season. An official "boat race" with every game? Very, very possible. I believe we are going to have very entertaining games, week in, week out, every game. I think WSU has a shot, literally, at any given game as long as they never give up and keep their heads in the game, avoid distractions, etc. etc.. I don't think one of the founders of the Air Raid will be forever 3-9. The numbers will climb, as with most/all of the Air Raid teams and the W column will rise. And yes, I'm in full-on KoolAid drinking mode, right now. Less than a week to our first game. I'm all in.
Anyways, interesting article on how CML has influenced just the Big 12, let alone the rest of the NCAA. Side note: Will be interesting to see how K-State fairs this year with virtually the rest of the conference running some form of AR.

 

[CougEd]

So what has CML done? Not necessarily with WSU but within other parts of football? This article is pretty intriguing. Nothing to earth-shattering but interesting to see the increasing growth of this "system".

http://espn.go.com/blog/big12/post/_/id/102749/air-raids-rise-in-big-12-still-inspired-by-mike-leach

It begs the question, what is due for WSU? What do I mean? 7 out of the Top 13 Offenses in FBS ran some sort of Air Raid, last year. TCU is coming into this season with an enormous amount of press, bringing back 10 out of the 11 players on the O and not one of them slouches. To think TCU will play in the championship, wouldn't be a stretch and they run a very similar Air Raid system as WSU.
So to go back, what is Due for WSU? With a QB that has been brought in and "groomed" by CML (one or both that seems to be willing to go to the backs more and now is being said will roll out more, as well), a returning Oline, a stable of WR's that are fairly incredible… I see some serious, serious points going up this season. An official "boat race" with every game? Very, very possible. I believe we are going to have very entertaining games, week in, week out, every game. I think WSU has a shot, literally, at any given game as long as they never give up and keep their heads in the game, avoid distractions, etc. etc.. I don't think one of the founders of the Air Raid will be forever 3-9. The numbers will climb, as with most/all of the Air Raid teams and the W column will rise. And yes, I'm in full-on KoolAid drinking mode, right now. Less than a week to our first game. I'm all in.
Anyways, interesting article on how CML has influenced just the Big 12, let alone the rest of the NCAA. Side note: Will be interesting to see how K-State fairs this year with virtually the rest of the conference running some form of AR.

Koolaid always taste good this time of year. They have 8 winnable games on the schedule. Maybe Leach is such a QB guru he will coach some of those mistakes young qb's make and Falk will be more of the QB we saw against OSU on a consistent basis. My expectation is he will make a mistake at the wrong time and cost us one game. That puts us at 7. I would think a blown coverage with a young secondary will end up costing us one game. That gets us at 6. If the dline doesn't hold up, that puts us at 5, but Leach really thinks it is a deep crew so I am saying six wins and going to a bowl game IF that happens.

 

[Coug95man2]

Koolaid always taste good this time of year. They have 8 winnable games on the schedule. Maybe Leach is such a QB guru he will coach some of those mistakes young qb's make and Falk will be more of the QB we saw against OSU on a consistent basis. My expectation is he will make a mistake at the wrong time and cost us one game. That puts us at 7. I would think a blown coverage with a young secondary will end up costing us one game. That gets us at 6. If the dline doesn't hold up, that puts us at 5, but Leach really thinks it is a deep crew so I am saying six wins and going to a bowl game IF that happens.

I think 6 regular season wins is completely do-able. I hate crystal ball stuff but I'll go that far. Like everything in football and life, it's about focusing and trying to make as few mistakes as possible. So we'll see how focused they are. We need to keep mistakes down, so the game is about X's and O's. The Air Raid is built to help negate physical differences so focus and perseverance are major, major points, IMHO.

As with all Air Raid systems, the QB is pivotal. All Air Raid systems are QB-centric. But I think our QB situation is not what will lose the games for us, as you imply. I don't think the O is going to be at fault at all, actually. I still believe the D is where we need more time to develop. I like our current coaches and I think we are getting the players but we are still in that "young" stage and they will make mistakes that will cost us. So to me, the real question regarding this year is… Will the Offense be able to score enough to negate whatever given mistake? This is my overall question/point.

But I also want to state, I think my OP has a tinge of long term, as well. I truly do believe CML has a place in Pullman. This man is not done innovating, IMHO. I hope that we don't acquiesce to the modern theme of, "If we don't make a bowl this year, CML is in the Hot Seat." kind of thing. I think we'll be bowling this year as you state (hope, pray, hope, pray) and if that is so, that is an historical act at WSU. 2 out of the first 4 years of a coaches tenure, at a bowl… That's huge and worthy of serious considerations of keeping that 5 year rollover and just keeping it rolling.

 

[chinookpirate]

I'm going to stick with Moos' prediction and go with 7-9 wins this season.

 

[Cougatron]

Leach will be inducted into the college football hall of fame. His influence is one of the biggest in the game as a whole.

What our future holds is similar to what he did at Texas Tech, but we weren't even close to where he started from at Texas Tech. We were one of the worst programs in the BCS and until we shed all that dead weight to a legit Pac-12 roster we were always going to struggle.

We still are pretty young..probably 1-2 years from really making a big breakout, but from a roster standpoint it's night and day.


Leach's contribution to WSU is going to make us a great program again, and after he leaves we'll have a team that can draw from the many assistant's and coaches out there that are familiar with his system.

Moos was brilliant bringing in Leach because of this. We can hire OU's OC, TCU's OC, Baylor OC West Virginia's OC, A&M's OC, Cal's OC, Texas Tech's OC etc. etc. etc. and have them step into a team that has a roster built around the style. Leach won't just make us a good team again...he's making us a destination for future Air Raid HCs.

It won't just be a flash in the pan like it was under Price. This time Moos and Leach are building us a sustainable future.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

I still struggle with the "we are 1 or 2 years away" type thinking. We are in year four of his contract. I like what Leach is doing overall, but I can't say that there will be very many understanding people if we don't make a bowl game this year. The schedule appears too easy for anything less than 6 wins to be a good thing.

I personally expect 7 wins this year with 8 after the bowl win. We are definitely a couple years away from having a legit shot at winning the north and I think all of us can live with that.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

So what has CML done? Not necessarily with WSU but within other parts of football? This article is pretty intriguing. Nothing to earth-shattering but interesting to see the increasing growth of this "system".

http://espn.go.com/blog/big12/post/_/id/102749/air-raids-rise-in-big-12-still-inspired-by-mike-leach

It begs the question, what is due for WSU? What do I mean? 7 out of the Top 13 Offenses in FBS ran some sort of Air Raid, last year. TCU is coming into this season with an enormous amount of press, bringing back 10 out of the 11 players on the O and not one of them slouches. To think TCU will play in the championship, wouldn't be a stretch and they run a very similar Air Raid system as WSU.
So to go back, what is Due for WSU? With a QB that has been brought in and "groomed" by CML (one or both that seems to be willing to go to the backs more and now is being said will roll out more, as well), a returning Oline, a stable of WR's that are fairly incredible… I see some serious, serious points going up this season. An official "boat race" with every game? Very, very possible. I believe we are going to have very entertaining games, week in, week out, every game. I think WSU has a shot, literally, at any given game as long as they never give up and keep their heads in the game, avoid distractions, etc. etc.. I don't think one of the founders of the Air Raid will be forever 3-9. The numbers will climb, as with most/all of the Air Raid teams and the W column will rise. And yes, I'm in full-on KoolAid drinking mode, right now. Less than a week to our first game. I'm all in.
Anyways, interesting article on how CML has influenced just the Big 12, let alone the rest of the NCAA. Side note: Will be interesting to see how K-State fairs this year with virtually the rest of the conference running some form of AR.

I've been saying this for... I don't know, even since CPW, but it applies even more now:

We don't need stops. We need an opportune D that can create a turnover or two per game. THAT will be the difference in wins and losses, IMHO. We'll score the points, but if we can get a pick and/ or a fumble recovery, we could be very dangerous.

Also/ obviously - can't give up multiple returns for td's per game either.

 

[Cougatron]

I still struggle with the "we are 1 or 2 years away" type thinking. We are in year four of his contract. I like what Leach is doing overall, but I can't say that there will be very many understanding people if we don't make a bowl game this year. The schedule appears too easy for anything less than 6 wins to be a good thing.

I personally expect 7 wins this year with 8 after the bowl win. We are definitely a couple years away from having a legit shot at winning the north and I think all of us can live with that.

I think we can win 6-7 this year.

Why do I think we need just 1 more year for a big breakout...

On offense we have 3 Seniors starting...
On defense we have 5 Seniors....

So 8 out 22 starters are seniors... so that should tell you why I think 1-2 years is where we really take a big step forward.

In our 2 deep. As it stands right now of the 44 spots.

4 freshmen...on offense...3 freshmen on defense.... 7 total
8 are sophomores on offense... 8 sophomores on defense... 16 total
4 Juniors on offense...3 juniors on defense...7 total

So basically 30 of the 44 in the two deep come back next year (pending Marks doesn't leave which he more than likely will(

That's 68% of this year's 2 deep coming back next year with strength and conditioning a year of Pac-12 play etc.

That from a roster standpoint is really strong. Considering that 23 of the 44 two deep spots are underclassmen...not only does next year look good, but the year after will be even better.

So where we are now is okay, but we are headed towards some big..like win the Pac-12 North big kind of path.

 

[CougEd]

I think 6 regular season wins is completely do-able. I hate crystal ball stuff but I'll go that far. Like everything in football and life, it's about focusing and trying to make as few mistakes as possible. So we'll see how focused they are. We need to keep mistakes down, so the game is about X's and O's. The Air Raid is built to help negate physical differences so focus and perseverance are major, major points, IMHO.

As with all Air Raid systems, the QB is pivotal. All Air Raid systems are QB-centric. But I think our QB situation is not what will lose the games for us, as you imply. I don't think the O is going to be at fault at all, actually. I still believe the D is where we need more time to develop. I like our current coaches and I think we are getting the players but we are still in that "young" stage and they will make mistakes that will cost us. So to me, the real question regarding this year is… Will the Offense be able to score enough to negate whatever given mistake? This is my overall question/point.

But I also want to state, I think my OP has a tinge of long term, as well. I truly do believe CML has a place in Pullman. This man is not done innovating, IMHO. I hope that we don't acquiesce to the modern theme of, "If we don't make a bowl this year, CML is in the Hot Seat." kind of thing. I think we'll be bowling this year as you state (hope, pray, hope, pray) and if that is so, that is an historical act at WSU. 2 out of the first 4 years of a coaches tenure, at a bowl… That's huge and worthy of serious considerations of keeping that 5 year rollover and just keeping it rolling.

Actually the difference between winning and losing is doing the small stuff, much of what doesn't get in the paper. Making a block or not making a block down field. A receiver dropping a pass. Even staying in or getting out of bounds.

Look at the Utah game. Halliday starting his first game, threw three picks but had a chance to win it late. He threw a drag route to Karsteter and it was second and 10 and on the route he had two choices- get out of bounds making it third and three, or trying to fight for extra yardage and cutting it up the field with no chance for the first down. He chose to turn it up the field and clock went tick tick tick The next through almost the identical throw and he got plenty for the first down. Instead of trying to get to the goal line he then steps out of bounds. The clock would have stopped because he had the first down and he had a chance to get to get to the goal line. Those two plays are the difference between a winning team and losing team.

 

[chinookpirate]

I struggle with the excuse machine going full tilt by the head cheerleader.

I struggle with the incessant need to throw the most successful coach in our history under the bus rather than celebrate what he added to the accomplished history of Washington State University.

Moos says 7-8 and a bowl. That's 7-9. Why won't some of you buy in?

 

[Coug95man2]

Actually the difference between winning and losing is doing the small stuff, much of what doesn't get in the paper. Making a block or not making a block down field. A receiver dropping a pass. Even staying in or getting out of bounds.

Look at the Utah game. Halliday starting his first game, threw three picks but had a chance to win it late. He threw a drag route to Karsteter and it was second and 10 and on the route he had two choices- get out of bounds making it third and three, or trying to fight for extra yardage and cutting it up the field with no chance for the first down. He chose to turn it up the field and clock went tick tick tick The next through almost the identical throw and he got plenty for the first down. Instead of trying to get to the goal line he then steps out of bounds. The clock would have stopped because he had the first down and he had a chance to get to get to the goal line. Those two plays are the difference between a winning team and losing team.

Explain how the instances you've given aren't a product of lack of focus?

 

[Cougatron]

Actually the difference between winning and losing is doing the small stuff,

Look at the Utah game. Halliday starting his first game, threw three picks but had a chance to win it late. .

No the difference in that game was a MWC team in its 1st year in the Pac-12 beating a Pac-12 team that obviously was recruited and coached below the MWC level.

 

[CougEd]

No the difference in that game was a MWC team in its 1st year in the Pac-12 beating a Pac-12 team that obviously was recruited and coached below the MWC level.

Versus the following year...

 

[Cougatron]

Versus the following year...

Which had the same sub MWC roster...but after we cleared out a bunch and got some Pac-12 players on the team...We beat them.. to qualify for a bowl game.....and we beat them last year...in their own house.

 

[CougEd]

Which had the same sub MWC roster...but after we cleared out a bunch and got some Pac-12 players on the team...We beat them.. to qualify for a bowl game.....and we beat them last year...in their own house.

I can't buy what the implications of your post means in that you are saying one coach can do more with less. Beat them with 16 substandard starters in 2013. Now of course if I could use your rationale in that we beat them with their third string QB starting the game and throwing two picks for td's that offset his 35 plus he put on our defense.

 

[Cougatron]

I can't buy what the implications of your post means in that you are saying one coach can do more with less. Beat them with 16 substandard starters in 2013. Now of course if I could use your rationale in that we beat them with their third string QB starting the game and throwing two picks for td's that offset his 35 plus he put on our defense.

The implications are...

That as a BCS conference team. talent wise we were below a MWC team. And then when we played them...they beat us...in their first year in the conference.

Then we got a real football coach, but unfortunately we couldn't fire the entire roster (cept maybe Long, Bucannon, and a few others) and bring in an upperclassmen Pac-12 roster... so we had to keep playing with the sub MWC/WAC roster we had while trying to add a few pieces.

Finally in 2013 we had enough coaching and talent to beat the team that came from the MWC, and we beat them again in their own stadium last year even in a down year for us...

While you spend your time focusing on 1 player....like some idiot coach we had before that put 90% of his snaps into Gary Rodgers or his entire career onto Jeff Tuel...people who know what they are talking about know that there are 11 players on the field...and that it's not about 1 player here or there...it's about the entire team that you can play.... it's about the overall depth of a program....

Like for example Urban Meyer...who started his 3rd string QB and won a national title... because he knows that you have to recruit a lot of players and build a lot of depth...like 20+ OL on scholarship...instead of 6.... because that's what GOOD coaches do....that's what people who know what the hell they are doing / talking about do...

And why people like yourself and Paul Wulff...don't.

 

[Coug95man2]

The implications are...

That as a BCS conference team. talent wise we were below a MWC team. And then when we played them...they beat us...in their first year in the conference.

Then we got a real football coach, but unfortunately we couldn't fire the entire roster (cept maybe Long, Bucannon, and a few others) and bring in an upperclassmen Pac-12 roster... so we had to keep playing with the sub MWC/WAC roster we had while trying to add a few pieces.

Finally in 2013 we had enough coaching and talent to beat the team that came from the MWC, and we beat them again in their own stadium last year even in a down year for us...

While you spend your time focusing on 1 player....like some idiot coach we had before that put 90% of his snaps into Gary Rodgers or his entire career onto Jeff Tuel...people who know what they are talking about know that there are 11 players on the field...and that it's not about 1 player here or there...it's about the entire team that you can play.... it's about the overall depth of a program....

Like for example Urban Meyer...who started his 3rd string QB and won a national title... because he knows that you have to recruit a lot of players and build a lot of depth...like 20+ OL on scholarship...instead of 6.... because that's what GOOD coaches do....that's what people who know what the hell they are doing / talking about do...

And why people like yourself and Paul Wulff...don't.

Dude. Just bit the bait...

 

[chinookpirate]

So now you're equating Mike Leach with Urban Meyer??? ...and WSU with theeOhio State?

 

[Cougatron]

So now you're equating Mike Leach with Urban Meyer??? ...and WSU with theeOhio State?

I'm equating coaches that know how to build a roster properly, and illustrating that teams that do have a lot of depth fare much better, and that having a 3rd string QB who can play well is just as important as a good 1st stringer, because over the season things happen. When your entire roster is below a mid tier conference...you are going to be in trouble...for a while....

And well let's hear what Urban Meyer has to say about Leach himself.

"Number four: this is a new term we came up with about two years ago. Alright, individual. Mike Leach is a certified nut job. Everybody knows Mike Leach, right? He's a certified ... great friend of mine; out of his damn mind. Weird. Never plays, attorney, genius kind of guy.I learned so much from him two years ago. I had him come up and speak to our staff.

And that's going back to Mike Leach, the nut-job. Of all his bizarre stuff. How does he win? That's not by chance. He is as good as I've seen at development and specifics that I've ever witness. "

So the guy who won the national title says our coach doesn't win by chance, he's as good as he's ever seen at development and specifics, and that he learned so much from him that he had him come up and speak to his staff.

Good coaches recognize other good coaches, and Urban Meyer went to learn from Leach, and I'm sure Leach learned plenty from Meyer as well. Smart coaches know how to build a roster. Doesn't matter if you are a big school like Ohio State...or a small one like WSU... depth is important at both places, and having depth that meets the talent level of the competition is critical.

 

[CougEd]

I'm equating coaches that know how to build a roster properly, and illustrating that teams that do have a lot of depth fare much better, and that having a 3rd string QB who can play well is just as important as a good 1st stringer, because over the season things happen. When your entire roster is below a mid tier conference...you are going to be in trouble...for a while....

And well let's hear what Urban Meyer has to say about Leach himself.

"Number four: this is a new term we came up with about two years ago. Alright, individual. Mike Leach is a certified nut job. Everybody knows Mike Leach, right? He's a certified ... great friend of mine; out of his damn mind. Weird. Never plays, attorney, genius kind of guy.I learned so much from him two years ago. I had him come up and speak to our staff.

And that's going back to Mike Leach, the nut-job. Of all his bizarre stuff. How does he win? That's not by chance. He is as good as I've seen at development and specifics that I've ever witness. "

So the guy who won the national title says our coach doesn't win by chance, he's as good as he's ever seen at development and specifics, and that he learned so much from him that he had him come up and speak to his staff.

Good coaches recognize other good coaches, and Urban Meyer went to learn from Leach, and I'm sure Leach learned plenty from Meyer as well. Smart coaches know how to build a roster. Doesn't matter if you are a big school like Ohio State...or a small one like WSU... depth is important at both places, and having depth that meets the talent level of the competition is critical.

The implications are...

That as a BCS conference team. talent wise we were below a MWC team. And then when we played them...they beat us...in their first year in the conference.

Then we got a real football coach, but unfortunately we couldn't fire the entire roster (cept maybe Long, Bucannon, and a few others) and bring in an upperclassmen Pac-12 roster... so we had to keep playing with the sub MWC/WAC roster we had while trying to add a few pieces.

Finally in 2013 we had enough coaching and talent to beat the team that came from the MWC, and we beat them again in their own stadium last year even in a down year for us...

While you spend your time focusing on 1 player....like some idiot coach we had before that put 90% of his snaps into Gary Rodgers or his entire career onto Jeff Tuel...people who know what they are talking about know that there are 11 players on the field...and that it's not about 1 player here or there...it's about the entire team that you can play.... it's about the overall depth of a program....

Like for example Urban Meyer...who started his 3rd string QB and won a national title... because he knows that you have to recruit a lot of players and build a lot of depth...like 20+ OL on scholarship...instead of 6.... because that's what GOOD coaches do....that's what people who know what the hell they are doing / talking about do...

And why people like yourself and Paul Wulff...don't.

Oh I get the importance of depth. When I would speak to some in the coaching profession that is all they talked about. "we have no depth".

I just don't recall seeing a ton of it (depth) in my years of watching Cougar football. I also get the importance of the QB position. When was the last time a team with a substandard QB won the Super Bowl? 2000 with Dilfer? I don't remember seeing Rex Ryans teams in the Super Bowl and I think he is a fantastic defensive mind.

As far as Utah, I believe they finished third in their division in 2011, their first year in the Pac 12 and they went bowling. That was the year we took them down to the wire. Then 2012 happened and what was their final record when they beat us? 49-0 for 59 minutes? And what was their record in 2013 with their third string qb?

And I know you believe there was this great purge in 2013, but their wasn't. I believe the same 8 substandard below MWC players started on each side of the ball in 2013, including the entire defensive backfield.

And yes, I agree Leach appears to be getting numbers. He is very good at getting players who aren'r Pac 12 material that Wulff recruited and he recruited quickly off the roster. The challenge to that is they are forever young. And while we have numbers, do we have quality depth that we have seen under fire in the Pac 12 arena? Truth be told, we hope they are really good. But none of them have experience yet. I sure hope we do.

 

[CougEd]

So you didn't see a dropoff from Leaf to Birnbaum? Bledsoe to Chad Degrenier? Mike Leach is a master of getting his second team players and his freshman quality reps. When you say Gary rogers took 90% of the snaps, do you think that is unusual? What is unusual is the number of snaps Leach gets his first second and third teams. How many teams do you believe their freshman have a full on scrimmage Thursday nights? 122 teams, do you believe more than 20?

 

[Observer11]

Leach will be inducted into the college football hall of fame. His influence is one of the biggest in the game as a whole.

What our future holds is similar to what he did at Texas Tech, but we weren't even close to where he started from at Texas Tech. We were one of the worst programs in the BCS and until we shed all that dead weight to a legit Pac-12 roster we were always going to struggle.

We still are pretty young..probably 1-2 years from really making a big breakout, but from a roster standpoint it's night and day.


Leach's contribution to WSU is going to make us a great program again, and after he leaves we'll have a team that can draw from the many assistant's and coaches out there that are familiar with his system.

Moos was brilliant bringing in Leach because of this. We can hire OU's OC, TCU's OC, Baylor OC West Virginia's OC, A&M's OC, Cal's OC, Texas Tech's OC etc. etc. etc. and have them step into a team that has a roster built around the style. Leach won't just make us a good team again...he's making us a destination for future Air Raid HCs.

It won't just be a flash in the pan like it was under Price. This time Moos and Leach are building us a sustainable future.

While I think I get what you are trying to say, it's fairly clear you live as far away from Missouri as geographically possible. I'm more of a show-me kind of guy.

By trying to prove your point denegrating the only coach in modern WSU history who was able to win championships and go to bowl games on a fairly regular basis, it minimizes any sense of credibility.

If you want to play the Leach vs. Wulff game, that's fine. Wulff didn't get it done on the field. Leach has kind of got it done. Price got it done.

 

[CougEd]

While I think I get what you are trying to say, it's fairly clear you live as far away from Missouri as geographically possible. I'm more of a show-me kind of guy.

By trying to prove your point denegrating the only coach in modern WSU history who was able to win championships and go to bowl games on a fairly regular basis, it minimizes any sense of credibility.

If you want to play the Leach vs. Wulff game, that's fine. Wulff didn't get it done on the field. Leach has kind of got it done. Price got it done.

It is the funny thing about coaching. Pete Carroll was USC's fourth choice. Everyone thought he was going to flame out like the previous coaches had. Who would have thought he would be so good so fast. When he took the Seattle job people thought he would fail, including me. I didn't see anyway with them being in the middle of the pack they could get themselves a franchise QB.

I remember one poster from this board mocking Chip Kelly after his first loss against Boise State, questioning how long Kelly would last in Eugene.

People thought Doba was the perfect hire and he flamed out. People thought Price wasn't right, and he turned out to be the best of them all. Dennis Erickson was this golden boy and everything he touched turned to gold, yet he started the collapse of Miami football, was average for the Seahawks in a horrible situation.

People thought Breske was going to be good, and it didn't turn out that way. Most people thought Leach's offense was going to roll and we would games early in his career. That didn't happen. People when Grinch was hired looked at that with a skeptical eye as he had to be their fourth choice. That may end up working out well.

If Leach goes 8-4 for the next four years he would be 2 games above .500. That means it will take him 7 years to reach .500.

So I am hopeful the winning starts this season, and we start to get fans back on board. But until I see the "depth" that people want to talk about, and show me it is quality depth, not just names on a uniform, I am with you and he needs to show me he is in the same category at WSU as Mike Price.

 

[CougEd]

Explain how the instances you've given aren't a product of lack of focus?

C-Man...Some football players are very very smart. They can be very book smart and not be smart football players. Some football players can be dumber than a rock and yet be extremely smart on the field.

Some of it is just seeing it live on the field. Experience if you will. There is no greater example for me the small difference between winning and losing as the 96 and 97 USC games. In the last two minutes of the 96 game Leaf threw a seam pattern to McKenzie, a JC transfer. Instead of taking it straight up the field, he broke it outside and allowed for an angle by the safety, plus didn't allow his WR to make a block. McKenzie was caught at USC's 15 yard line. The next play Leaf goes back to pass and gets blindsided and coughs up the ball.

The following year, same play late in the game and it was tied. Pass goes to McKenzie, he takes it straight up the field and McWashington can make the key block and he scored the winning TD. The difference between a win and a loss.

 

[Coug95man2]

C-Man...Some football players are very very smart. They can be very book smart and not be smart football players. Some football players can be dumber than a rock and yet be extremely smart on the field.

Some of it is just seeing it live on the field. Experience if you will. There is no greater example for me the small difference between winning and losing as the 96 and 97 USC games. In the last two minutes of the 96 game Leaf threw a seam pattern to McKenzie, a JC transfer. Instead of taking it straight up the field, he broke it outside and allowed for an angle by the safety, plus didn't allow his WR to make a block. McKenzie was caught at USC's 15 yard line. The next play Leaf goes back to pass and gets blindsided and coughs up the ball.

The following year, same play late in the game and it was tied. Pass goes to McKenzie, he takes it straight up the field and McWashington can make the key block and he scored the winning TD. The difference between a win and a loss.

THAT is a decent example of what I think you are trying saying. Pretty much everything else you mentioned above are blatant issues of focus. But I'll also say, we don't know if McKenzie's lack of blocking (I'm not going to look up the plays you are mentioning. I'll assume you are accurate here) wasn't a focus problem, do we? To play devil's advocate, does anyone here really think that the block he missed wasn't being taught at practice? So was he focused enough? He was taught it, coaches probably yelled and screamed at him at practice, if he ever missed it there. So why did he miss it? No way to know but could easily be surmised that lack of focus could be the culprit on this scenario, as well.

Ultimately, that's my only point. Focus is a major, major issue. You can bring up as many specific plays you want, ed. But generally speaking, it could easily be surmised that a missed assignment is caused by a lack of focus. So, if we can negate lack of focus, I think we can do very, very well.

 

[Cougatron]

While I think I get what you are trying to say, it's fairly clear you live as far away from Missouri as geographically possible. I'm more of a show-me kind of guy.

By trying to prove your point denegrating the only coach in modern WSU history who was able to win championships and go to bowl games on a fairly regular basis, it minimizes any sense of credibility.

If you want to play the Leach vs. Wulff game, that's fine. Wulff didn't get it done on the field. Leach has kind of got it done. Price got it done.

I didn't denegrate Price. I've always said he was our greatest coach, But Leach is our 3rd coach SINCE Price. What happened after Price put us in the the position where we fell to total irrelevance. Now Leach is digging us out of it.

What I mean about flash in the Pan was we had Price it was great. It was amazing! Then all of sudden we're recruiting at the bottom of the entire FBS hoping to win more than 2 games 3 years in a row.

We had no real backup plan for after Price. There was no real vision for what we were going to do next, and that is what I'm talking about. With Leach and his coaching tree we have more options for the next man then so so many teams out there.

 

[CougEd]

THAT is a decent example of what I think you are trying saying. Pretty much everything else you mentioned above are blatant issues of focus. But I'll also say, we don't know if McKenzie's lack of blocking (I'm not going to look up the plays you are mentioning. I'll assume you are accurate here) wasn't a focus problem, do we? To play devil's advocate, does anyone here really think that the block he missed wasn't being taught at practice? So was he focused enough? He was taught it, coaches probably yelled and screamed at him at practice, if he ever missed it there. So why did he miss it? No way to know but could easily be surmised that lack of focus could be the culprit on this scenario, as well.

Ultimately, that's my only point. Focus is a major, major issue. You can bring up as many specific plays you want, ed. But generally speaking, it could easily be surmised that a missed assignment is caused by a lack of focus. So, if we can negate lack of focus, I think we can do very, very well.

I don't think it is a "lack of focus" at all. My freshman year I took a class, and it just so happened my older sister was in the class. I would highlight the entire book. I would study for hours. I would "focus" in on everything the prof would say. My sister wouldn't highlight jack. She would take the test and come up with the same grade I got. Pissed, I asked her what the deal was. Her response was "experience" . She said "I knew what to study for, I knew what to take in from the prof, what to throw out. I knew which were the questions to sidetrack me." In time I gained a similar skill set.

Maybe how it relates to football, aside from having sub MWC in 2012, a huge problem for the offense was the slot receivers. There is no question in my mind a good part of the problem in 2012 on offense was the two inside receivers. BYU gave everyone the recipe to beat the Air raid...drop 8.

I am sure the two inside receivers were focused on their jobs. Galvin and Lintz would run a slant, or they would run a drag, curl, or out, the would replicate what they learned in practice. They would run it to the depth they were told in practice.

Neither played inside receiver before, so I am sure on an out pattern, it was x amount of steps then cut. The problem is their inexperience and that innate ability that Bartilone and Cracraft has is run to an open spot. The inside guys weren't open for Tuel or Halliday to dump it off to. Galvin got better as time went on. But look at the Apple Cup and the plays Bartilone, Simone and even K Williams had. The offense started to figure it out. While the two guys that were focused, they didn't have the experience where it is second nature.

 

[Coug95man2]

I don't think it is a "lack of focus" at all. My freshman year I took a class, and it just so happened my older sister was in the class. I would highlight the entire book. I would study for hours. I would "focus" in on everything the prof would say. My sister wouldn't highlight jack. She would take the test and come up with the same grade I got. Pissed, I asked her what the deal was. Her response was "experience" . She said "I knew what to study for, I knew what to take in from the prof, what to throw out. I knew which were the questions to sidetrack me." In time I gained a similar skill set.

Maybe how it relates to football, aside from having sub MWC in 2012, a huge problem for the offense was the slot receivers. There is no question in my mind a good part of the problem in 2012 on offense was the two inside receivers. BYU gave everyone the recipe to beat the Air raid...drop 8.

I am sure the two inside receivers were focused on their jobs. Galvin and Lintz would run a slant, or they would run a drag, curl, or out, the would replicate what they learned in practice. They would run it to the depth they were told in practice.

Neither played inside receiver before, so I am sure on an out pattern, it was x amount of steps then cut. The problem is their inexperience and that innate ability that Bartilone and Cracraft has is run to an open spot. The inside guys weren't open for Tuel or Halliday to dump it off to. Galvin got better as time went on. But look at the Apple Cup and the plays Bartilone, Simone and even K Williams had. The offense started to figure it out. While the two guys that were focused, they didn't have the experience where it is second nature.

This has become a "definition" thing now. Your very example: You use the term "experience". I use the term "focus". You were focusing on the wrong things… or the WR was focusing on the wrong thing (that's also called lack of focus) You call it experience, I call it focus. Tit for tat. Not worth arguing. We agree, just using different terms. What ev...

 

[spongebob11]

While I think I get what you are trying to say, it's fairly clear you live as far away from Missouri as geographically possible. I'm more of a show-me kind of guy.

By trying to prove your point denegrating the only coach in modern WSU history who was able to win championships and go to bowl games on a fairly regular basis, it minimizes any sense of credibility.

If you want to play the Leach vs. Wulff game, that's fine. Wulff didn't get it done on the field. Leach has kind of got it done. Price got it done.

Great observation Observer

I'm in show me mode as well. Until I see at least an attempt to run the ball and db's that show up on the tv screen and a special teams that isn't quite so special, then maybe I'll have some kool aid.

'Til then, it's like the yearly "we've worked harder this summer than ever before" annual puff pieces on brand x.

 

[Cougatron]

If Leach goes 8-4 for the next four years he would be 2 games above .500. That means it will take him 7 years to reach .500.

So I am hopeful the winning starts this season, and we start to get fans back on board. But until I see the "depth" that people want to talk about, and show me it is quality depth, not just names on a uniform, I am with you and he needs to show me he is in the same category at WSU as Mike Price.

You know what Mike Price was after 7 years.... 38-41...3 games under .500
You know what Mike Price was 5 years after that... 25-32....
You know what Mike Price was after 12 years.... 63-73....10 games under .500

And this isn't mean to try and make Price look bad. This is to show people that forgot...the actual reality.

Price was our greatest coach, and after 12 years...he wasn't .500.

So when Leach gets handed our program at one of the lowest points in our history...I cut the guy some slack because I know what other great coaches went through at WSU. I didn't forget.

Leach is building us into a machine...when's the last time we had 3 - 4 star receivers play in the same game for us? Never. being thrown to by a QB that Florida State offered...not that I know of, But it's happening this weekend.

Leach is close to breaking it open, and when it does recruiting gets easier...and then it's just plug play adding people to the offense. He's not 100% quite there...but it's really close.

Defensively he's upgrading the coaching...upgrading the talent, and he'll be getting it just like the offense at some point...and from there do you honestly believe that he's going to have the drop offs Price had? No way. Price's way of doing things was good. It got us some great success, but we had to slosh through a lot of valleys in between.

Leach's roster / practice design is built on repetition and upgrades. The longer he coaches...the better the parts...the better the machine.

I said it before and I'll say it again. Leach is our next Mike Price. You guys just don't see it yet, but it's there. It's a different way of doing things, but it's the same end result.

 

[chinookpirate]

I didn't denegrate Price. I've always said he was our greatest coach, But Leach is our 3rd coach SINCE Price. What happened after Price put us in the the position where we fell to total irrelevance. Now Leach is digging us out of it.

What I mean about flash in the Pan was we had Price it was great. It was amazing! Then all of sudden we're recruiting at the bottom of the entire FBS hoping to win more than 2 games 3 years in a row.

We had no real backup plan for after Price. There was no real vision for what we were going to do next, and that is what I'm talking about. With Leach and his coaching tree we have more options for the next man then so so many teams out there.

That's just it. We weren't "recruiting at the bottom of the barrel" ALL recruiting went into 1997. We started OVER. Most Cougars understood this. Most were patient and were rewarded again on the field. Price was Weber States coach who won with a vision, dreams and unsupportive administration... in spite of all that, delivered.

Sorry, you weren't there and you don't get to trash that history Tron and yes, you bring it up quite often.

 

[spongebob11]

You know what Mike Price was after 7 years.... 38-41...3 games under .500
You know what Mike Price was 5 years after that... 25-32....
You know what Mike Price was after 12 years.... 63-73....10 games under .500

And this isn't mean to try and make Price look bad. This is to show people that forgot...the actual reality.

Price was our greatest coach, and after 12 years...he wasn't .500.

So when Leach gets handed our program at one of the lowest points in our history...I cut the guy some slack because I know what other great coaches went through at WSU. I didn't forget.

Leach is building us into a machine...when's the last time we had 3 - 4 star receivers play in the same game for us? Never. being thrown to by a QB that Florida State offered...not that I know of, But it's happening this weekend.

Leach is close to breaking it open, and when it does recruiting gets easier...and then it's just plug play adding people to the offense. He's not 100% quite there...but it's really close.

Defensively he's upgrading the coaching...upgrading the talent, and he'll be getting it just like the offense at some point...and from there do you honestly believe that he's going to have the drop offs Price had? No way. Price's way of doing things was good. It got us some great success, but we had to slosh through a lot of valleys in between.

Leach's roster / practice design is built on repetition and upgrades. The longer he coaches...the better the parts...the better the machine.

I said it before and I'll say it again. Leach is our next Mike Price. You guys just don't see it yet, but it's there. It's a different way of doing things, but it's the same end result.

"Leach is building us into a machine". Really?

3-9 x2 and the worst special teams I've ever seen and a new coach who has never been a D coordinator and wasn't close to being our first choice is building a machine?

How do we even know Grinch is an upgrade over Breaks? We don't.

Just because some puff pieces you have read does not make it so.

 

[Cougatron]

That's just it. We weren't "recruiting at the bottom of the barrel" ALL recruiting went into 1997. We started OVER. Most Cougars understood this. Most were patient and were rewarded again on the field. Price was Weber States coach who won with a vision, dreams and unsupportive administration... in spite of all that, delivered.

Sorry, you weren't there and you don't get to trash that history Tron and yes, you bring it up quite often.

Mike Price won because Mike Price recruited great players. When we had a down year it was always because we lost seniors and had nobody left, and had to wait till we could get more great players. It's how it was with Price. He was a great great coach, but we had lots and lots of down years because as you said...start over.... Programs that are built of sustained success don't have to do that. They just reload. That's how when you get to the top...you stay there.

It happened with our coaching hires after price. We had no plan. And then we essentially have to start over again with Leach.

Yes Leach has a supportive administration, but that doesn't change the fact that we had already run the program into the dirt. You can get the greatest of builders to a burned out building, but it's still a burned out building on arrival. Yes we can lay a new slab. Yes we can build the frame. But it still is a long way from a house again.

What I for see now is that once we have the house this time we won't be able to burn it down like we did after Price. It will be something long standing, and we can bring in lots of coaches from around the country, and when they walk in...it's a roster full of kids that know the system...it's a roster full of players that can compete with anybody in the Pac-12. It's a team that knows what it's like to go to bowl games, and come from behind and win games...A team that knows how to win, has won, and can do it again.

We've never had that...I guess you could say that first year with Doba? But we all saw what happened afterwards.

 

[Cougatron]

"Leach is building us into a machine". Really?

3-9 x2 and the worst special teams I've ever seen and a new coach who has never been a D coordinator and wasn't close to being our first choice is building a machine?

How do we even know Grinch is an upgrade over Breaks? We don't.

Just because some puff pieces you have read does not make it so.

And Price is 3 wins X 4.

Special teams were bad, had kicker...stolen by UW...had to make do with what we had, and we fired the guy we needed to fire.

Our offense steadily improved under Leach every year. Our recruiting has improved...every year...
On defense...in 2012 we forced 21 turnovers...2013...30...in 2014...8
So we were improving in that but it fell apart with the secondary....and we fired the guy we needed to fire.

 

[CougEd]

I didn't denegrate Price. I've always said he was our greatest coach, But Leach is our 3rd coach SINCE Price. What happened after Price put us in the the position where we fell to total irrelevance. Now Leach is digging us out of it.

What I mean about flash in the Pan was we had Price it was great. It was amazing! Then all of sudden we're recruiting at the bottom of the entire FBS hoping to win more than 2 games 3 years in a row.

We had no real backup plan for after Price. There was no real vision for what we were going to do next, and that is what I'm talking about. With Leach and his coaching tree we have more options for the next man then so so many teams out there.

Mike Price won because Mike Price recruited great players. When we had a down year it was always because we lost seniors and had nobody left, and had to wait till we could get more great players. It's how it was with Price. He was a great great coach, but we had lots and lots of down years because as you said...start over.... Programs that are built of sustained success don't have to do that. They just reload. That's how when you get to the top...you stay there.

It happened with our coaching hires after price. We had no plan. And then we essentially have to start over again with Leach.

Yes Leach has a supportive administration, but that doesn't change the fact that we had already run the program into the dirt. You can get the greatest of builders to a burned out building, but it's still a burned out building on arrival. Yes we can lay a new slab. Yes we can build the frame. But it still is a long way from a house again.

What I for see now is that once we have the house this time we won't be able to burn it down like we did after Price. It will be something long standing, and we can bring in lots of coaches from around the country, and when they walk in...it's a roster full of kids that know the system...it's a roster full of players that can compete with anybody in the Pac-12. It's a team that knows what it's like to go to bowl games, and come from behind and win games...A team that knows how to win, has won, and can do it again.

We've never had that...I guess you could say that first year with Doba? But we all saw what happened afterwards.

Price didn't have a "plan". What does that mean? And yes we are very aware of 1990, 1991, a bowl team in 93 that turned out to lose four straight once Pattison went down. We remember 95, 96, 98, 99, 2000. We remember all those times. And he recruited great players? Who? What were their "stars" and other offers?

 

[chinookpirate]

Price recruited to his plan each and every year. You have no respect for what he achieved and no understanding of how he built it what risks he overcame to enjoy success... if you did, you would embrace it and relish it.

Leach has either recruited... or he hasn't. That horse left the barn. We will witness the results of his recruiting in the 7-9 wins Moos has promised us in 2015. If not, then Rivals will be proven right. One way or the other, we are going to find out.

 

[Cougatron]

Price didn't have a "plan". What does that mean? And yes we are very aware of 1990, 1991, a bowl team in 93 that turned out to lose four straight once Pattison went down. We remember 95, 96, 98, 99, 2000. We remember all those times. And he recruited great players? Who? What were their "stars" and other offers?

What part about "WE DIDN'T HAVE A PLAN AFTER PRICE" is talking about Price not having a plan.

The great players that price recruited? Bledsoe? "In addition to WSU, Drew Bledsoe visited the UW, Miami and Stanford."

 

[Cougatron]

Price recruited to his plan each and every year. You have no respect for what he achieved and no understanding of how he built it what risks he overcame to enjoy success... if you did, you would embrace it and relish it.

Who said I didn't enjoy what he did? But Price had a lot of losing seasons in between...A LOT. That's the truth. I understand exactly how he built it. It was very clear how he built it, but it wasn't bowl bowl bowl bowl every year with Price, and anyone that hold Leach to that standard is absolutely hypocritical.

 

[spongebob11]

And Price is 3 wins X 4.

Special teams were bad, had kicker...stolen by UW...had to make do with what we had, and we fired the guy we needed to fire.

Our offense steadily improved under Leach every year. Our recruiting has improved...every year...
On defense...in 2012 we forced 21 turnovers...2013...30...in 2014...8
So we were improving in that but it fell apart with the secondary....and we fired the guy we needed to fire.

And Price is 3 wins X 4.

Special teams were bad, had kicker...stolen by UW...had to make do with what we had, and we fired the guy we needed to fire.

Our offense steadily improved under Leach every year. Our recruiting has improved...every year...
On defense...in 2012 we forced 21 turnovers...2013...30...in 2014...8
So we were improving in that but it fell apart with the secondary....and we fired the guy we needed to fire.

3x4 in 13 yrs is a lot different than 3-9x2 in 3 yrs.

Not sure how firing the guy who needed to be fired with our 4th choice and no DC experience is "building a machine"...Its more like a question mark...but carry on.

 

[Cougatron]

3x4 in 13 yrs is a lot different than 3-9x2 in 3 yrs.

Not sure how firing the guy who needed to be fired with our 4th choice and no DC experience is "building a machine"...Its more like a question mark...but carry on.

And you know who was a Defensive backs coach with no DC experience when he got to WSU.... Mike ZImmer. (Fun fact he started out at Missouri too)