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Tapa and Bartley, both d-linemen, are gone. Sakaria, an O-lineman, and Romello Harris, a RB, also are gone. Tapa's loss will be felt. We are paper thin on interior d-linemen.
Ya, I missed him counting up the roster. Missing 4 after being at 85 would make 81. Don't like losing promising d-linemen.
"Bartley said defensive line coach Joe Salave’a played a huge role in his decision.
"Coach Joe, he was definitely a big factor for me committing there," said Bartley. "He is a man I would hands down play for.""
Recruiting of d-tackles has to be a priority. "Speed" defense doesn't mean a thing when o-linemen are knocking people over like bowling pins. Is there at least one WSU o-lineman who could slide over to d-line?
Tapa had talent but maybe not the focus and commitment. Tough loss at a position of need. Ekuale is bigger but who else can take NT? Wish we could find another Guata late.
The biggest downside (besides the hit to our DL depth) is the hit to our APR score.
With that, the coaches should have brought in at least one big body to replace him. Imagine what will happen if Ekuale and McBroom are injured.
With how hard we recruited Samoa, we've had a hard time keeping kids here. Coach Joe did recruit some beast, but struggled to get DL and really struggled to keep the DL we got in school. Isn't sour grapes, but we are in year 6 and our DL depth is still a major issue. Hopefully Phelps can change this.
I know that I've gotten some grief for my comments about recruiting too many OL players, but DL depth was a specific area where I thought we could be using an extra scholarship each year. I agree with Yaki that given our good numbers on the OL, it might be appropriate to see if any of them have the feet and the moves to jump over to the DL.
While I've never thought it was an either-or emphasis in recruiting OL-DL, the one lineman I thought might be able to play either way was Fred Mauigoa, but he's clearly not leaving center. The coaches eventually moved Nick Begg to d-line, but he's still just 264 pounds.
DT and Dlinemen are a premium. Not sure there has been a time we haven't struggled. Leach and staff had a good start and then the last couple of years they have missed out.
There is no shortage of d-ends, and there's always a possibility that Dallas Hobbs and Willie Rodgers will grow into d-tackles, but they won't be ready in 2018.
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considering that DT is pretty much THE position on defense, this has to be a premium for the entire staff to get, perhaps even #2 priority behind QB. The consistent lack of quality depth over CML/ Grinch/ Joe tenure IS concerning, and hopefully our midwest coach can recruit some of that midwest talent.
Again, to beat the dead horse - not sure running 34 is the best choice for a program that struggles getting talented recruits top to bottom and is competing with the big boys for the only kids in the nation who can play 2 gap NT.
A lot of us believed we would always struggle to have the OL quality and overall numbers in the current pipeline and that's been blown out of the water at this point. Finding the kind of DT/NTs we want for our defense may be a bigger challenge but it's not like we need 20 on the roster. With Tapa departing we really don't have a "true NT" on the roster. Ekuale is up to 315 or whatever. I am not sure that's what the defensive staff wanted ideally. We just have had too many misses at NT/DT over the last few cycles.
What do you think accounts for those misses that we didn't have on Barber, Destiny, Eukale etc?
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By my count, WSU signed 12 "d-tackle" prospects 2012-2016. Of course, if they're playing in a 3-4, the guys on either side of the NT are called ends. But our scheme is all over the place.
Here's the list (recruiting class/names)...
2012: Destiny Vaeao, Robert Barber, Ioane Gauta
2013: Daniel Ekuale, Gerald Sterling, Paulo Lepua
2014: Ngalu Tapa
2015: Thomas Toki, T.J. Fehoko, Hunter Mattox
2016: Garrett McBroom, Lyric Bartley.
Two members of the 2017 class, Dallas Hobbs and Willie Rodgers, have the frames to grow into d-tackles. I'm not saying they will, but the potential is there. Even if they do, this staff will need immediate help in 2018.
The general difficulty projecting DTs?
From Yaki's post:
2012: Destiny Vaeao, Robert Barber, Ioane Gauta
2013: Daniel Ekuale, Gerald Sterling, Paulo Lepua
2014: Ngalu Tapa
2015: Thomas Toki, T.J. Fehoko, Hunter Mattox
2016: Garrett McBroom, Lyric Bartley.
Out of those 12 players over 5 cycles 5 have played significantly and Mattox is essentially just getting started. Tapa and Toki flaming out or never making it in were tough misses but 5/6 out of 12 for arguably the toughest position to project is solid.
It's not like recruiting DBs where there is generally a decent supply ever year. Some years there just aren't as many prospects available. I don't know whether that's the case but the last 3 years we haven't done good enough bringing in NT/DTs. Would love us to find another Gauta late.
But is it better than ...
2008:
Bernard Wolfgramm
Josh Luapo
Anthony Laurenzi
2009:
Quayshawn Buckley
Brandon Rankin
Justin Clayton
2010:
Toni Pole
Xavier Cooper
Steve Hoffart
2011:
T.J. Poloai
David Davis
Four out of 11? (Rankin, a d-end whose career was ruined when forced to play inside; Pole, Cooper; Hoffart had a nice AC).
For the record, it's not a good day at the office for Leach when we have to compare him to Wulff to look good. When that happens, it's time for us to get better.....fast.
I was curious how the 34 would shake out at WSU. I hate it.
I see the staff bringing in kids on the DL that are taller. 6'4" and taller. Honestly, unless you're a Battle Cat, 6'3" and shorter just isn't enough. Not for WSU. They need guys that have long arms and legs. They need bodies that can grow from 245lbs to 285lbs. Just like Price taking tight ends and growing them to offensive linemen, Leach needs to just get taller athletes into school on the DL and let them grow.
It really is pretty simple. Get speed off the edge, the two largest human beings you can find to play in the middle, get linebackers that run to the football, wrap it up nice and neat and call it the Doba 43. It works. Do it.
not that its a great comparison, but I'm liking it at least better than the 30 stack defense of yore.
You know, the "we don't have to recruit anyone because our defense works by scheme, not talent, so watch as we decimate teams with our 6'1" 215lb "speedy" linebackers" defense.
That being said, imho the 43 is the best scheme for schools like ours to get talent for.
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I think you are underestimating how hard it is to find a true nose tackle. This is hard. Even the pros have trouble identifying good prospects for that position to draft. When they find a B.J. Raji or Hali Ngota he gets drafted early and makes a lot of money.
It isn't exactly easy to find a tall, rangy, athletic kid to use as a rush end, but it is a lot easier than finding a true nose guy who can take on double and triple teams and not give ground.
That said, that has always seemed like an advantage of sorts for you PAC programs over Southern teams. Well what I mean is you guys have an easier time recruiting Polynesian players than any other conference in the country.
It's too early my time to go PC for diplomatic purposes, but Polynesians are genetically prone to producing the kind of guy who can excel at that spot.
That doesn't mean Washington State will automatically be able to sign one of those guys, but I think your odds are better if you are running a 3-4 than even a school like Georgia, which is situated in a talent wonderland. Lot of players, but the kind you need for that spot doesn't come out of there often.
If you can find that nose guy, most teams don't seem to have problems finding enough athletic linebackers to make a 3-4 work. Lawrence Taylor types are hard to find, but relatively speaking you can sign guys who can generate a pass rush at OLB, even if they aren't going to be in the NFL Hall of Fame one day.
Someone mentioned the Midwest. Great place for offensive linemen. But not so good for finding 6'1" 320-330 pounds guys who aren't tubs of goo and have some mobility. (Course a lot of excellent tight end, linebacker, safety type talent comes from there too, so you really ought to find a way to get a pipeline somewhere there if you can. Been a number of dropback qb's too, but that isn't a recruiting issue for you honestly.)
The kid doesn't have to be Polynesian. You're looking for 6'1" 290 before 6'3" 290. It's a squatty body type. I think you're seeing WSU move towards 6'4" and taller on the DL, similar to what they do with the OL. Just get tall athletes and grow them.
It may be equally as hard to find pass rushing linebackers. There's a difference between running sideline to sideline making tackles and having the speed to get the QB down. You can rally kids to the ball and gang tackle. You can take better angles or dissect plays better. There are some things you can do to work with a player that runs 4.6 at linebacker. That same kid as a pass rusher may just look like an also ran being two steps too slow to the QB. The kid probably needs to be 6'2" or taller to handle the size of tackles. So now you're getting shorter at NG and taller and faster at LB....
At this point, I think WSU is probably better off just getting 6'5" and taller, 235lbs or bigger and as athletic as possible on the DL. Run numbers through the position and see who shakes out.
It's not just OL where the added numbers have helped drive the talent forward. Not having tight ends in the scheme matters for WSU. They can add more receivers, backs, linemen... Just another guy or two really helps. I hope they find a way to do that on the DL.
There isn't an unlimited supply of OLM, DLM, or any position for that matter so I'm not underestimating the challenge especially at the nose. DT in general is probably the most difficult position to project to college IMO. We currently don't have one NT on the roster and that's an issue when you are running the 34 even though I wouldn't say we run a true 34. I think Ekuale should work fine at the NT but we are really thin at NT/DT.
I think it kind of depends on where you are in the country myself.
I went to South Carolina, and while they may have a down year at a position group, trust me they will never run out of 4-3 defensive ends or defensive backs.
But signing a really good offensive lineman is hard. The state just does not put them out for the most part. And nose tackle talent is just as hard.
Actually Alabama spreads their net wide to get them. Even signing that Australian (Maori I think) kid to play for them once. Think they have moved away from the initial Saban defense though, and are running more of a 4-3 with a "Buck" (hybrid lineman/lb).
Just based on what I see on TV, seems like Washington State (whole West Coast actually) produces qb's, wr's, offensive linemen, tight ends, and linebackers. At least the kind you win championships with, as opposed to just having a guy who can plausibly play the position.
To me the X-factor for you (PAC guys) are those Polynesians. Most teams across the country would love to sign those guys, but they rarely make it east of the Mississippi. Heck they seem to stop at Colorado actually. (Hadn't realized it until someone on this very board wrote something about it, but Utah has a large Polynesian population because of the Mormon Church)
You guys are probably right though. 4-3 defenses with athletic players seem to match up better with spreads than a true 3-4 (though hasn't TCU moved to a 3-4 instead of that 4-2-5? In the Big 12), which increasingly is what you have to do.
But sometimes you play "retro" teams like Stanford or Arkansas and you kind of wish you had a defense designed to stuff power running.
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