Clemson suing to leave ACC...

[ttowncoug]

My guess is this is the domino WSU/OSU are waiting for. What's unclear if that means Cal/Stanford back to rebuild the PAC-12, or joining forces with the ACC to build out a western division (my hope/guess).

Clemson files lawsuit against ACC over exit fees

In a lawsuit filed Tuesday in South Carolina, Clemson calls the ACC withdrawal penalty "unconscionable" and "unenforceable."

www.espn.com

 

[cr8zyncalif]

Too soon to say what this means, especially since Clem/FSU have to prevail in order for it to have any immediate effect....

 

[ttowncoug]

Too soon to say what this means, especially since Clem/FSU have to prevail in order for it to have any immediate effect....

agreed, but the ACC needs to be proactive and building life after FSU, Clemson and ND. The Big-10 will likely pay some crazy amount to have ND in all non-football sports and for some scheduling deal like the ACC had.

 

[95coug]

My guess is this is the domino WSU/OSU are waiting for. What's unclear if that means Cal/Stanford back to rebuild the PAC-12, or joining forces with the ACC to build out a western division (my hope/guess).

Clemson files lawsuit against ACC over exit fees

In a lawsuit filed Tuesday in South Carolina, Clemson calls the ACC withdrawal penalty "unconscionable" and "unenforceable."

www.espn.com

No way around the simple fact that FSU and Clemson both agreed to the exit fees and the grant of rights on multiple occasions. Seems to me that the only way out of it is for the entire thing to be ruled invalid. If that happens, it’s not invalid just for FSU & Clemson - but for all ACC members.
It’s hard to imagine that the whole thing will get tossed. It’s presumably been reviewed and approved by attorneys from every member institution, as well as the conference, and some of them have certainly had outside counsel going through every word for the last 2 years.

I have little doubt that FSU & Clemson will eventually get out of the ACC, but I don’t expect it’s going to be through invalidation of the agreement. I think it’ll be a negotiated settlement.

 

[Dave_86]

No way around the simple fact that FSU and Clemson both agreed to the exit fees and the grant of rights on multiple occasions. Seems to me that the only way out of it is for the entire thing to be ruled invalid. If that happens, it’s not invalid just for FSU & Clemson - but for all ACC members.
It’s hard to imagine that the whole thing will get tossed. It’s presumably been reviewed and approved by attorneys from every member institution, as well as the conference, and some of them have certainly had outside counsel going through every word for the last 2 years.

I have little doubt that FSU & Clemson will eventually get out of the ACC, but I don’t expect it’s going to be through invalidation of the agreement. I think it’ll be a negotiated settlement.

95coug - From everything I've read at the freebee Cal & Stanford message boards, you are probably correct: the GOR will be very difficult for Clemson and FSU to get out of. Here's what I read at one Stanford message board today (link follows; post #8):

Nothing is stopping any school from leaving the conference other than the exit fee and loss of broadcast rights through 2036. Someone had the FSU exit fee pegged at half a billion dollars. Somebody on one of the Cal sites totally gets the GOR from a legal standpoint and that analysis is making the rounds. That person says it is pretty lock tight, but lawyers do get $500 per hour to pick locks.

The World According to "The Cardboard"

Clemson and FSU's legal efforts to escape the GOR may impact the PAC-2's efforts to rebuild the conference using select MWC members.

ttowncoug - thanks for posting the link!!! Big news.

 

[95coug]

95coug - From everything I've read at the freebee Cal & Stanford message boards, you are probably correct: the GOR will be very difficult for Clemson and FSU to get out of. Here's what I read at one Stanford message board today (link follows; post #8):

Nothing is stopping any school from leaving the conference other than the exit fee and loss of broadcast rights through 2036. Someone had the FSU exit fee pegged at half a billion dollars. Somebody on one of the Cal sites totally gets the GOR from a legal standpoint and that analysis is making the rounds. That person says it is pretty lock tight, but lawyers do get $500 per hour to pick locks.

The World According to "The Cardboard"

Clemson and FSU's legal efforts to escape the GOR may impact the PAC-2's efforts to rebuild the conference using select MWC members.

ttowncoug - thanks for posting the link!!! Big news.

The other detail that could be huge - if FSU/Clemson can get the ACC grant of rights declared invalid, it may make the other conference GORs also invalid. Then realignment becomes a complete free for all.

Based on that, wouldn’t surprise me if ESPN and Fox money are also working on defeating the ACC deal.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

My guess is this is the domino WSU/OSU are waiting for. What's unclear if that means Cal/Stanford back to rebuild the PAC-12, or joining forces with the ACC to build out a western division (my hope/guess).

Tell me more about this ACC Western Division you speak of. WSU, OSU ,Cal, Furd, and..........?

The map on this Wikipedia link is kind of enlightening. If Clemson and FSU leave, and let's just throw in NC and Virginia, the ACC would have 12 members. That makes 12 vs 4. Who are the other 8 in the Western Division? 2/3 of the Mtn West of course.

Atlantic Coast Conference - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In the meantime, hope Stanford and Cal enjoy those quick hops to Syracuse, Boston College and miami.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

All bullshitting aside, once Clemson and FSU leave the ACC....the B1G and SEC are going to relegate the ACC to a Group of 5 level status and we'll be better off joining forces with the Mountain West. The problem is that the FOMO is so overwhelming that programs are willing to accept sh!tty deals just so it doesn't get any worse....all while ignoring that the "getting worse" part is inevitable. The problem of course it that in general, people lack ethics and integrity. They'll make sh!tty unethical and shortsighted decisions that they believe in their best self interests in the short term even though it's clearly a bad decision in the long term.

Joining up with the ACC may be a good short term decision but it's a bad long term decision and won't hold up.

 

[mikalalas]

All bullshitting aside, once Clemson and FSU leave the ACC....the B1G and SEC are going to relegate the ACC to a Group of 5 level status and we'll be better off joining forces with the Mountain West. The problem is that the FOMO is so overwhelming that programs are willing to accept sh!tty deals just so it doesn't get any worse....all while ignoring that the "getting worse" part is inevitable. The problem of course it that in general, people lack ethics and integrity. They'll make sh!tty unethical and shortsighted decisions that they believe in their best self interests in the short term even though it's clearly a bad decision in the long term.

Joining up with the ACC may be a good short term decision but it's a bad long term decision and won't hold up.

Even without FSU, Clemson, North Carolina, Virginia, Miami, the ACC would still be better then MWC, AAC, and the rest of G5, because of Duke, Pitt, Louisville, Boston College, Georgia Tech, Virginia Yech, NC State, etc.

And joining a whole entire G5 conference IS NOT the way to go.

The way to go is to merge with THE BEST of ALL the G5 conferences, combined together into 1 merged conference, whether that conference is called PAC X or ACC, whichever has the best brand name, and organize into a COAST TO COAST, whole entire USA league, with PODS, DIVISIONS, that would SOLVE TRAVEL concerns.

An example of such of conference would be:

West Division.

WSU, OSU, CAL, SDSU, FRESNO ST, BSU, SMU

Central Division

UNLV, AIRFORCE, UTAH STATE, TULANE, MEMPHIS, COLORADO ST, IOWA ST(when it gets booted out of Big 12)

East Division

Pitt, Louisville, Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, Duke, Boston College

Call that conference the PAC 18/20 or the ACC.

That conference would be a semi G5/semi P5 hybrid, that would probably get about, 17 to 20 to 23 mil per team per year, 1 GUARANTED CFP SPOT(as long as at least a 10-2 conference champ), 1,2 NY6 January bowl slots to either Orange, Rose, Sugar, Fiesta, Cotton, Peach, and would have Gator Bowl, Insight Bowl, Alamo Bowl, Vegas Bowl, Holiday Bowl, Sun Bowl.

Then Gonzaga, ST Mary's, Uconn, Villanova, could, would be added for basketball only

SUCH A CONFERENCE WOULD RAKE, VACUUM UP A HELL OF A LOT OF MONEY FROM ESPN, FOX, APPLE, AMAZON, CFP ACCESS, NY6 BOWLS, BOWLS, NCAA TOURNAMENT UNITS, ETC.

SUCH A CONFERENCE WOULD NOT HAVE TRAVEL PROBLEMS BECAUSE OF PODS, DIVISIONS.

SUCH A CONFERENCE WOULD BE BETTER THEN A WESTERN ONLY CONFERENCE, OR EITHER JOINING WHOLE ENTIRE MWC, OR REVERSE MERGING WHOLE ENTIRE MWC INTO PAC.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

Even without FSU, Clemson, North Carolina, Virginia, Miami, the ACC would still be better then MWC, AAC, and the rest of G5, because of Duke, Pitt, Louisville, Boston College, Georgia Tech, Virginia Yech, NC State, etc.

And joining a whole entire G5 conference IS NOT the way to go.

The way to go is to merge with THE BEST of ALL the G5 conferences, combined together into 1 merged conference, whether that conference is called PAC X or ACC, whichever has the best brand name, and organize into a COAST TO COAST, whole entire USA league, with PODS, DIVISIONS, that would SOLVE TRAVEL concerns.

An example of such of conference would be:

West Division.

WSU, OSU, CAL, SDSU, FRESNO ST, BSU, SMU

Central Division

UNLV, AIRFORCE, UTAH STATE, TULANE, MEMPHIS, COLORADO ST, IOWA ST(when it gets booted out of Big 12)

East Division

Pitt, Louisville, Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, Duke, Boston College

Call that conference the PAC 18/20 or the ACC.

That conference would be a semi G5/semi P5 hybrid, that would probably get about, 17 to 20 to 23 mil per team per year, 1 GUARANTED CFP SPOT(as long as at least a 10-2 conference champ), 1,2 NY6 January bowl slots to either Orange, Rose, Sugar, Fiesta, Cotton, Peach, and would have Gator Bowl, Insight Bowl, Alamo Bowl, Vegas Bowl, Holiday Bowl, Sun Bowl.

Then Gonzaga, ST Mary's, Uconn, Villanova, could, would be added for basketball only

SUCH A CONFERENCE WOULD RAKE, VACUUM UP A HELL OF A LOT OF MONEY FROM ESPN, FOX, APPLE, AMAZON, CFP ACCESS, NY6 BOWLS, BOWLS, NCAA TOURNAMENT UNITS, ETC.

SUCH A CONFERENCE WOULD NOT HAVE TRAVEL PROBLEMS BECAUSE OF PODS, DIVISIONS.

SUCH A CONFERENCE WOULD BE BETTER THEN A WESTERN ONLY CONFERENCE, OR EITHER JOINING WHOLE ENTIRE MWC, OR REVERSE MERGING WHOLE ENTIRE MWC INTO PAC.

Oh Mik.

I'll leave the rest of your drivel alone. But the NY6 bowls. HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU HAVE TO BE TOLD THAT THEY ARE NOW PART OF THE CFP? CFP teams, and ONLY CfP teams, will play in these bowls. But according to you your fantasy conference will get 1,2 slots.

 

[ttowncoug]

Tell me more about this ACC Western Division you speak of. WSU, OSU ,Cal, Furd, and..........?

The map on this Wikipedia link is kind of enlightening. If Clemson and FSU leave, and let's just throw in NC and Virginia, the ACC would have 12 members. That makes 12 vs 4. Who are the other 8 in the Western Division? 2/3 of the Mtn West of course.

Atlantic Coast Conference - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In the meantime, hope Stanford and Cal enjoy those quick hops to Syracuse, Boston College and miami.

One of the beliefs is that the rumored "APAC" conference (merger of ACC and PAC-12) would be set up in divisions. Hypothetical teams in the new conference below. I don't think Stanford and Cal want to be flying all over the country long-term. They'd appreciate a west coast division and a conference that gets national exposure.

West:
WSU
OSU
CAL
Stanford
SDSU - ?
SMU


East:
The remaining ACC schools.

You now have a coast to coast conference, less travel, etc.

 

[Wazzubrooz]

Sorry t-town, no disrespect here, but furd is never going to lower itself into the conference you just listed.

 

[CougPatrol]

Stanford will never join a conference with Boise and Fresno. Get that idea out of your heads once and for all.

 

[Houclone4]

UNLV, AIRFORCE, UTAH STATE, TULANE, MEMPHIS, COLORADO ST, IOWA ST(when it gets booted out of Big 12)

Iowa State getting booted? Keep dreaming. Nobody is getting booted from the Big 12.

 

[dgibbons]

No way around the simple fact that FSU and Clemson both agreed to the exit fees and the grant of rights on multiple occasions. Seems to me that the only way out of it is for the entire thing to be ruled invalid. If that happens, it’s not invalid just for FSU & Clemson - but for all ACC members.
It’s hard to imagine that the whole thing will get tossed. It’s presumably been reviewed and approved by attorneys from every member institution, as well as the conference, and some of them have certainly had outside counsel going through every word for the last 2 years.

I have little doubt that FSU & Clemson will eventually get out of the ACC, but I don’t expect it’s going to be through invalidation of the agreement. I think it’ll be a negotiated settlement.

They appear to be asking a court to determine the contract is "unconscionable" which basically means that the contract is so onerous and one-sided that the court should not enforce it. On the surface I would place the odds are slim to none that would work. My best guess is that's thrown in there to manufacture a negotiating point. The stuff about Clemson retaining the rights after exiting might have more legs, and be where Clemson can perhaps get a win in the courtroom.

 

[ttowncoug]

Sorry t-town, no disrespect here, but furd is never going to lower itself into the conference you just listed.

They (Stanford and Cal) are already in the ACC. This is the new ACC west division. They would not be moving conferences, it would be adding WSU and OSU and SDSU (they are fine with adding SDSU to the Pac-12) to the ACC to improve the logistics of the ACC.

The move adds 3 to replace 2+ teams (FSU and Clemson) that leave the ACC.

This is a chess game and the ACC needs to be aggressive to block the Big-12 out.

 

[95coug]

They (Stanford and Cal) are already in the ACC. This is the new ACC west division. They would not be moving conferences, it would be adding WSU and OSU and SDSU (they are fine with adding SDSU to the Pac-12) to the ACC to improve the logistics of the ACC.

The move adds 3 to replace 2+ teams (FSU and Clemson) that leave the ACC.

This is a chess game and the ACC needs to be aggressive to block the Big-12 out.

If FSU and Clemson get out of the conference, the SEC and Big 10 are going to pick the carcass and take anyone else they think brings value (Miami & UNC seem most likely).

Gaining Stanford, Cal, SMU, WSU, and OSU won't cancel out the loss of FSU & Clemson...let alone anyone else who gets poached. Those losses would likely push the ACC toward G5 status, and would certainly reduce their network payouts and their CFP share.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

One of the beliefs is that the rumored "APAC" conference (merger of ACC and PAC-12) would be set up in divisions. Hypothetical teams in the new conference below. I don't think Stanford and Cal want to be flying all over the country long-term. They'd appreciate a west coast division and a conference that gets national exposure.

West:
WSU
OSU
CAL
Stanford
SDSU - ?
SMU


East:
The remaining ACC schools.

You now have a coast to coast conference, less travel, etc.

11 in the East and 6 in the West?

 

[CougPatrol]

I'd be on board with it if there's a large East/West pod of teams. I want WSU aligned with the top dozen remaining West coast programs. If we could find an East coast partner of 12 programs who we play 3 cross-over games against every season and a conference championship, that could be fun.

 

[mikalalas]

I'd be on board with it if there's a large East/West pod of teams. I want WSU aligned with the top dozen remaining West coast programs. If we could find an East coast partner of 12 programs who we play 3 cross-over games against every season and a conference championship, that could be fun.

At last you seem to be understanding, getting that getting THE BEST G5's in the USA no matter where they are AND the ACC merged into 1 conference called either PAC or ACC, with a semi large Western Division, with 6+ teams, and 3 divisions, West, Central, East, etc, is better MONEY wise then a pure western conference.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

At last you seem to be understanding, getting that getting THE BEST G5's in the USA no matter where they are AND the ACC merged into 1 conference called either PAC or ACC, with a semi large Western Division, with 6+ teams, and 3 divisions, West, Central, East, etc, is better MONEY wise then a pure western conference.

Question - what happens to our 6-year payout of NCAA basketball money that we get as long as we are the Pac-something? That is not chicken feed.

 

[Dave_86]

Oh... my... goodness. Could Univ. of North Carolina be next?

North Carolina Board of Trustees chair John Preyer speaks out...

This quest from Preyer represents exactly how I feel about the stupid G.O.R. the Mountain West Conf has:

"I think this shows that what is supposed to be a member-based organization is not being led in a way that represents the best interests of all the members, but instead, it's really representing the bottom tier of the membership at the expense of the top tier, which is why Clemson and Florida State are doing what they're doing. I think that's just obvious."

MWC's GOR protects New Mexico, Hawaii, Nevada, Utah State, etc., at the expense of San Diego State, Boise St., Fresno St, etc.

 

[95coug]

Oh... my... goodness. Could Univ. of North Carolina be next?

North Carolina Board of Trustees chair John Preyer speaks out...

This quest from Preyer represents exactly how I feel about the stupid G.O.R. the Mountain West Conf has:

"I think this shows that what is supposed to be a member-based organization is not being led in a way that represents the best interests of all the members, but instead, it's really representing the bottom tier of the membership at the expense of the top tier, which is why Clemson and Florida State are doing what they're doing. I think that's just obvious."

MWC's GOR protects New Mexico, Hawaii, Nevada, Utah State, etc., at the expense of San Diego State, Boise St., Fresno St, etc.

This sums up the shift in CFB in general. We’ve enjoyed the socialist model for decades, while the USCs and FSUs grumbled about it. Now it’s turning capitalist and we don’t like it.

 

[mikalalas]

Question - what happens to our 6-year payout of NCAA basketball money that we get as long as we are the Pac-something? That is not chicken feed.

That's why it would be preferred under the PAC X brand, to retain the NCAA tournament, basketball 6 year money, units distributions.

But it's very, very close, and might be a wash either way to maybe more under the ACC brand for the conference, because ACC teams year after year consistently put more teams into the NCAA tournament, and their teams usually go deeper into NCAA tournament then PAC 12, and therefore probably have more units then PAC 12, and WSU, OSU, would probably get more money from the ACC brand, then the PAC brand.

But it's probably close, and might be a equal wash either way, no matter whether you call it, use the PAC brand, or ACC brand.

But it's something to consider.

But it probably won't happen anyways, as I don't trust the competence level of the best G5's, PAC, WSU, OSU leadership, ACC leadership, to make it happen.

 

[Meister_Rebel]

Oh... my... goodness. Could Univ. of North Carolina be next?

North Carolina Board of Trustees chair John Preyer speaks out...

This quest from Preyer represents exactly how I feel about the stupid G.O.R. the Mountain West Conf has:

"I think this shows that what is supposed to be a member-based organization is not being led in a way that represents the best interests of all the members, but instead, it's really representing the bottom tier of the membership at the expense of the top tier, which is why Clemson and Florida State are doing what they're doing. I think that's just obvious."

MWC's GOR protects New Mexico, Hawaii, Nevada, Utah State, etc., at the expense of San Diego State, Boise St., Fresno St, etc.

What GOR are you talking about in the MWC?

 

[Loyal Coug1]

This sums up the shift in CFB in general. We’ve enjoyed the socialist model for decades, while the USCs and FSUs grumbled about it. Now it’s turning capitalist and we don’t like it.

My biggest takeaway from this is that the UNC's Athletic Director's name is Bubba.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

This sums up the shift in CFB in general. We’ve enjoyed the socialist model for decades, while the USCs and FSUs grumbled about it. Now it’s turning capitalist and we don’t like it.

Frankly, it is terrible for the sport as a whole. ESPN is going to learn that the fans of the 60 or so "charity" schools aren't going to switch allegiances to their power conference foes and a lot of the fans of power schools are just front running douchebags who buy a t-shirt and watch games but will walk away from schools when they aren't winning. UW loves to think of themselves as an elite program, but ask Nebraska or West Virginia how it works out when you aren't playing in your geographic footprint against teams that fans care about. The fact that USC, UCLA, Oregon and UW all went to the B1G will soften the effect, but they are going to find 10 win seasons harder to produce and if they slide, it can become damned near impossible to get out of the rut.

WSU has had the same number of 10+ win seasons as UCLA since 1997. The Bruins are going to be terrible in the B1G and are likely done as a football power forever with their choice to go for the money. Yeah...they are going to get paid, but are their fans really going to be happy?

 

[Loyal Coug1]

That's why it would be preferred under the PAC X brand, to retain the NCAA tournament, basketball 6 year money, units distributions.

But it's very, very close, and might be a wash either way to maybe more under the ACC brand for the conference, because ACC teams year after year consistently put more teams into the NCAA tournament, and their teams usually go deeper into NCAA tournament then PAC 12, and therefore probably have more units then PAC 12, and WSU, OSU, would probably get more money from the ACC brand, then the PAC brand.

But it's probably close, and might be a equal wash either way, no matter whether you call it, use the PAC brand, or ACC brand.

But it's something to consider.

But it probably won't happen anyways, as I don't trust the competence level of the best G5's, PAC, WSU, OSU leadership, ACC leadership, to make it happen.

Well I'm more worried about the money we have (and will have coming after the 2024 tourney) than what we might share in later. 6 years has become a long time. To me it is sort of survival mode now. This is why I keep wondering and bitching about the money that the Pac-2 has and/or will have come August 2.

And while I will never be for your or anyone else's coast to coast models, I would think and hope that backroom discussions are and will be had about Scenario A, B, and C and how the Pac-2 would fare under each.

 

[Meister_Rebel]

Going back to this thread title. Now, the ACC is suing Clemson...

ACC suing Clemson

 

[ttowncoug]

This is a mess.

The ACC's ESPN deal can be "dumped" after 2026.

ESPN's ACC rights from 2027-36 are reportedly at their option

Florida State's lawsuit against the ACC states ESPN's 2027-36 rights are only an ESPN option, but that may not matter all that much.

awfulannouncing.com

Clemson and FSU are likely trying to get some sort of settlement deal to exit.

If the ACC is smart, they get ESPN to agree to their exit, to say the SEC (another ESPN property) and agree to keep the ACC whole on a pro-rata basis.

 

[dgibbons]

This is a mess.

The ACC's ESPN deal can be "dumped" after 2026.

ESPN's ACC rights from 2027-36 are reportedly at their option

Florida State's lawsuit against the ACC states ESPN's 2027-36 rights are only an ESPN option, but that may not matter all that much.

awfulannouncing.com

Clemson and FSU are likely trying to get some sort of settlement deal to exit.

If the ACC is smart, they get ESPN to agree to their exit, to say the SEC (another ESPN property) and agree to keep the ACC whole on a pro-rata basis.

Stanford and Cal sure were fortunate to land in the ACC....

 

[mikalalas]

Stanford and Cal sure were fortunate to land in the ACC....

And Smith would be so fortunate, glad to be in the ACC, that he would leave WSU to goto Stanford, and the ACC.

 

[Dave_86]

What GOR are you talking about in the MWC?

Oh. You're trying to tell me that I've confused the MWC's exit fees for a GOR. Yikes, I suspect you are correct.

Steep exit fees have stabilized...