Defensive alignment...

[Coug95man2]

So, there's so many different ways to run the D. With a new D-coord coming in, it seems like we might be changing. So what will it be?

4-3
3-4
4-2-5
3-3-5

Watching TCU for quite a while and I see how their D scheme works pretty well but it's all about personnel at the time. Thoughts? If we could have whatever we want, what do you think will work the best in the PAC?

 

[cr8zyncalif]

If you could have what ever you wanted in terms of recruits, any of these approaches would work. The key is having an approach that works when you DON'T have what ever you wanted. Or when you had it, but the wrong kids got hurt. Or flunked out. Or didn't get treated like they were special, and transferred.

The PAC probably has a greater variety of offenses than any other league, at least top level offenses. The various forms of 5 DB's would be fine until you ran into a power football team. The 5 DB's would be nice when playing Cal. I think ideally you want to be able to play more than one defensive format. If I had to pick just one, I'd want a 4 man front, because that is applicable most of the time. But even then, I would have situations where I would show 3 men. That might mean dropping 8, or it might mean a blitzing LB. And with a 4 man front, it could be 4-3-4 or it could be 4-2-5. That, too, could be situational. On 3rd and long, that 4-2-5 would look good. Not so much on 2nd and short.

For the next couple of years, the question on many minds will be which D does the best job against a read option. Again, the D doesn't matter as much as the personnel available to run it. But the two 4 man fronts noted above probably give you the most flexibility with the least complexity. And that is probably a goal to aspire toward.

 

[BiggsCoug]

I can't stand multiple defensive front schemes. It just splits the drill work too many ways. You need to have either exceptional coaches or kids or both. And it's not for young kids cause they can't learn all the schemes quickly.

Look at how many young players were getting reps on the defense this year. If you're a redshirt, you really weren't coached in the WSU scheme until spring ball. So you had spring and fall. Yippee. If you were a true frosh you had two weeks on fall practice. Ready, set, play! That's hardly enough time to really teach anyone much of anything. Even worse is if you're a complicated package.... like running a 34 defense and all the blitz packages that it can run....

Pick a scheme that you can coach up easily for young players, go with it, find a way to keep kids in the program so as they mature the scheme matures as well. You're not going to get to 8, 9, 10 wins if all you can run is base defense because your kids haven't had much time to learn.

Think of it like this... If you were teaching math.... First you teach addition, then subtraction, then multiplication, then division, then fractions, then algebra, etc....

What if all you could teach was addition and subtraction? You can be pretty good at it, but are you really gonna be able to confuse a 4 year starter at QB? Are you really gonna be able to show one thing and shift to another? Nope. You are what you are. Very bland, very easy to read, relies heavily on talent when you can't scheme up the other team. What if you don't have the talent you need??? 3-9. Or worse.

What if you had the chance to teach your kids all the way thru algebra??? Probably going to be able to scheme around any weaknesses you might have because your kids have been coached up as much or more than the other team....

I don't care what scheme they go with. Just teach it like a mofo and put out a defense that knows where to line up, where to go once they're lined up, can move around easily and plays like hell when you tell them.

 

[earldacoug]

Re: Defensive alignment...scheme

A 3-4 with 3 300lbrs up front doesn't seem to me to be the way to go to stop passing teams and or the spread option. I would prefer a 4-2 with smaller faster d ends. 3 big guys up front is just too much "slow" on the field imo.

 

[froropmkr72]

Re: Defensive alignment...scheme

Originally posted by earldacoug:
A 3-4 with 3 300lbrs up front doesn't seem to me to be the way to go to stop passing teams and or the spread option. I would prefer a 4-2 with smaller faster d ends. 3 big guys up front is just too much "slow" on the field imo.

Have to agree on the 3-4 being more useful in run oriented conferences or maybe at the pro level.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

Biggs, hang on to that math analogy. That is one of the most coherent explanations you've given in quite a while. I thought it was very good.

I'll try to add to it.

Did you ever have kids transfer into your middle school class from out of state? Usually they were behind in some math areas and ahead in others. Sometimes they were completely behind and drowning, or completely ahead and bored out of their minds. You found out in a hurry what kind of attitude the kid had, because either way it wasn't a comfortable learning environment.

I suspect that when our new D coordinator gets started, our kids will find that they are in the same situation vis a vis his system. Some basic techniques are fully transferable, and if the kid was properly taught and actually learned the skill, he will be ahead in that area. Overall scheme, on the other hand, will probably find everybody behind, unless the scheme is very similar to what Breske ran.

We'll find out how good of teachers the new D staff ends up being by how the team looks in the first game next year. Based on your analogy, they need to be able to add and subtract well, and it would be great if they had progressed past multiplication and division…but we'll just have to wait and see. I'll be happy if they are all on the same page as a unit.

 

[BiggsCoug]

Re: Defensive alignment...scheme

In the 34 defense the pass rush comes from the linebackers. The Steelers are a 34 team. Have been forever. When was the last time they had a pass rusher from the DL??? Never. There's a reason WSU doesn't have edge rushers on the DL. It's because they don't and no one was coached to do so. The DL are run stoppers in a 34.

In the 43, your pass rush comes from the DL and your LBs run sideline to sideline and make tackles. Or for WSU fans, the Doba 43.... Find two large DTs to take the OL off your linebackers, let your linebackers run free, turn your ends loose.

 

[earldacoug]

Re: Defensive alignment...scheme

So Breske playing a big slow buck to go with his 3 300lbrs was a recipe for disaster imo. combine that with other slow LBs and we got what we got. speed kills !!

 

[sunfire23]

Every elite defensive coach in the country appears to be multiple. Tony Gibson at WVU runs a 3-3-5 but has personnel at times that look 4-1-6. Alabama runs 3-4 but has personnel that sometimes looks 4-2-5. Arizona runs 3-3-5 under Casteel (who Tony Gibson coached under) and Arizona state looks to flip between 3-3-5 and 4-2-5. The key with all these defenses is pressure but more importantly, personnel. Hybrid positions are growing too. Positions like Star and Bandit which utilize a mix of safeties and LB's get as many athletes on the field at once. Clancy Pendergast last year at USC used a 5-2 defense which was very successful.

Bottom line, get a DC who will have a scheme that utilizes the talent he has and a game plan appropriate for that weeks opponent....and a back up plan for adjustments!

 

[BiggsCoug]

Alabama has a pretty talented roster and defensive coach. WSU does not.

It's one thing to walk a linebacker or safety down if the philosophy of the defense doesn't change. My issue is that moving from a 34 to a 43 changes the responsibilities for the front 7. And since WSU has kids that can do one or the other, not both, that's a problem.

The JC kids added to the fold will be interesting. You may even see some guys that played redshirt because there aren't enough spots to go around.

 

[ElComanche]

Well Clancy Pendergrast is out there. He has run a a few defensive formations. Perhaps the pros will pick him up?.He ran a 5-2 at USC and leach has faced him before.he is about 45 years of age and young enough to motivate.It seems like Leach is going after D linemen now adays can the cougs afford him? Would he be a good fit for the cougs?

 

[sunfire23]

Yes, I can see your point about the adjustment but let's not forget a lot of these are very coachable once you put the right coaching into them.

I agree that Clancy should be the guy for all the right reasons. He's a lights out coordinator with experience with the P12 and secondary. His 5-2 defense is perfect for the type of athletes WSU can get. Just my opinion.

 

[BiggsCoug]

Until WSU can keep kids in the system for longer then two years, there won't be a complicated defense at WSU. They just aren't there long enough to grow into the scheme and build.