Excellent Article/Analysis of EV Charging Economics

[dgibbons]

That makes no sense to me. That would mean charging is roughly 50x slower than regular fueling if my math is correct. And that’s assuming no one is charging at home which everyone I know that has an EV does.

If I buy an EV part of my payback is going to be based on saving money on Red Bulls and gas station hot dogs I won’t be buying anymore since I’d be charging at home.

I think it's fair to conclude the scale of the infrastructure buildout is immense, and not talked about enough. By the time it's done, seems like the next magic climate solution will be foisted upon us, with the lobbying for massive government subsidies to make it happen.

We need some flying cars that run on banana peels.

 

[whoisyaodaddy]

I think it's fair to conclude the scale of the infrastructure buildout is immense, and not talked about enough. By the time it's done, seems like the next magic climate solution will be foisted upon us, with the lobbying for massive government subsidies to make it happen.

We need some flying cars that run on banana peels.

My next car will be hybrid...likely a Prius. The market on EVs and infrastructure leaves little to be desired, especially when the policies originate form the both coasts in major metropolitan areas. I'm not going to drive an EV in E. Washington and feel like I have reliable transportation.

 

[95coug]

My next car will be hybrid...likely a Prius. The market on EVs and infrastructure leaves little to be desired, especially when the policies originate form the both coasts in major metropolitan areas. I'm not going to drive an EV in E. Washington and feel like I have reliable transportation.

We had a Prius as a work vehicle. I drove it to Seattle exactly once. It was exceedingly uncomfortable, both physically and mentally. After 4 hours my ass and back were so sore I thought about leaving the Prius at another office and renting something else for the drive home. And, it was disconcerting being in that little box knowing that if anything hit it, I was dead.

Plus, the fuel economy was not that good. On the highway, it's just a car with a gas engine, like anything else. In town, the mileage is better, but it's slow to pick up from a stop and the gas engine kicks in anyway once you hit 35....or if you try to get a jump off the line. Basically, you need to adapt your driving methods to the car in order to maximize its mileage. Accept being slow off the line, don't try to get in front of anyone to make a gap in traffic, and always go directly from gas to brake.

No thanks. Never drove the Prius again.

 

[Coug90]

My next car will be hybrid...likely a Prius. The market on EVs and infrastructure leaves little to be desired, especially when the policies originate form the both coasts in major metropolitan areas. I'm not going to drive an EV in E. Washington and feel like I have reliable transportation.

I don’t blame you for your thought process here. I don’t think this market can possibly fail with a company as big as Tesla driving it (and I’m not a Tesla fan just stating facts). The cue for me was hearing Toyota finally jumping in and will have cars with 700 miles of range that take 10 min to charge within a few years. The train has left the station. The energy question will answer itself.

 

[95coug]

I don’t blame you for your thought process here. I don’t think this market can possibly fail with a company as big as Tesla driving it (and I’m not a Tesla fan just stating facts). The cue for me was hearing Toyota finally jumping in and will have cars with 700 miles of range that take 10 min to charge within a few years. The train has left the station. The energy question will answer itself.

If they meet this, how much is it going to cost?

If the electric vehicles aren't priced where they're competitive with ICE cars - including the options and creature comforts - they're not going to take off.

If Toyota can manage to build this car, have it be affordable, comparable to my existing car, and not have the chargers/batteries blow up (10 minute charging doesn't seem feasible), I'll buy one myself.

 

[Coug90]

If they meet this, how much is it going to cost?

If the electric vehicles aren't priced where they're competitive with ICE cars - including the options and creature comforts - they're not going to take off.

If Toyota can manage to build this car, have it be affordable, comparable to my existing car, and not have the chargers/batteries blow up (10 minute charging doesn't seem feasible), I'll buy one myself.

Not sure there’s figures on costs yet but it’s Toyota. They made the Prius very affordable, I wouldn’t bet against them. I don’t think they’d put resources into a car that only a select few can afford. That doesn’t really fit with their business strategy.

 

[Wasichus]

This comes as a bit of a surprise to me. Just this week I read an article quoting the head of Toyota, saying they were backing off somewhat from EVs for now, and going to focus substantially more on hybrids.

They showed a couple of prototype EVs but said there was doubt they would ever see the light of day…….

Ifi can go back and find that article I will attempt to link it. It was on one of the news aggregator sites.

EDIT:

https://apple.news/A44if5437QfqhAY_ZpbFS-g

 

[Coug90]

This comes as a bit of a surprise to me. Just this week I read an article quoting the head of Toyota, saying they were backing off somewhat from EVs for now, and going to focus substantially more on hybrids.

They showed a couple of prototype EVs but said there was doubt they would ever see the light of day…….

Ifi can go back and find that article I will attempt to link it. It was on one of the news aggregator sites.

EDIT:

https://apple.news/A44if5437QfqhAY_ZpbFS-g

Well maybe they’ve already backed off. Not sure if this is the exact article I read but just the gist of it. It was a couple months ago, these things can change quickly!

Toyota Claims Breakthrough That Will Lead To 745-Mile EV Battery

The Japanese car manufacturer said that it had simplified production of the material used to make both solid-state and liquid-based batteries.

insideevs.com

 

[425cougfan]

We had a Prius as a work vehicle. I drove it to Seattle exactly once. It was exceedingly uncomfortable, both physically and mentally. After 4 hours my ass and back were so sore I thought about leaving the Prius at another office and renting something else for the drive home. And, it was disconcerting being in that little box knowing that if anything hit it, I was dead.

Plus, the fuel economy was not that good. On the highway, it's just a car with a gas engine, like anything else. In town, the mileage is better, but it's slow to pick up from a stop and the gas engine kicks in anyway once you hit 35....or if you try to get a jump off the line. Basically, you need to adapt your driving methods to the car in order to maximize its mileage. Accept being slow off the line, don't try to get in front of anyone to make a gap in traffic, and always go directly from gas to brake.

No thanks. Never drove the Prius again.

From what I see, most Prius drivers treat those as features, not bugs. They try to not even go fast enough in that little tax credit-mobile to use the gas, cruising along on the battery fast-idle if possible, watching that little blue light come on like they're in a casino, and enjoy nothing more than camping in the left lane with a 10-car gap ahead of them.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

From what I see, most Prius drivers treat those as features, not bugs. They try to not even go fast enough in that little tax credit-mobile to use the gas, cruising along on the battery fast-idle if possible, watching that little blue light come on like they're in a casino, and enjoy nothing more than camping in the left lane with a 10-car gap ahead of them.

Prius's and Priu drivers - Barf on them.

 

[95coug]

Not sure there’s figures on costs yet but it’s Toyota. They made the Prius very affordable, I wouldn’t bet against them. I don’t think they’d put resources into a car that only a select few can afford. That doesn’t really fit with their business strategy.

Or they just sell it as a Lexus

 

[Coug90]

Or they just sell it as a Lexus

Even Lexus’s are less than their comparable counterparts. And way more reliable, less maintenance, and hold their value better.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

We had a Prius as a work vehicle. I drove it to Seattle exactly once. It was exceedingly uncomfortable, both physically and mentally. After 4 hours my ass and back were so sore I thought about leaving the Prius at another office and renting something else for the drive home. And, it was disconcerting being in that little box knowing that if anything hit it, I was dead.

Plus, the fuel economy was not that good. On the highway, it's just a car with a gas engine, like anything else. In town, the mileage is better, but it's slow to pick up from a stop and the gas engine kicks in anyway once you hit 35....or if you try to get a jump off the line. Basically, you need to adapt your driving methods to the car in order to maximize its mileage. Accept being slow off the line, don't try to get in front of anyone to make a gap in traffic, and always go directly from gas to brake.

No thanks. Never drove the Prius again.

Just out of curiosity....what year was the Prius that you drove? I drove a third generation Prius (2009-14) when I was Las Vegas around 10 years ago. It wasn't a great car, but it was far better than I expected based on my preconceived notions of the car. I've heard that the newest versions are actually pretty good cars.

 

[95coug]

Just out of curiosity....what year was the Prius that you drove? I drove a third generation Prius (2009-14) when I was Las Vegas around 10 years ago. It wasn't a great car, but it was far better than I expected based on my preconceived notions of the car. I've heard that the newest versions are actually pretty good cars.

2006, I think.

They’re gone now - when our motor pool guy asked my opinion, I told him it would be better not to have a motor pool than to have those.

My brother actually has one as a commuter, not sure the year, and he says it’s fine. His commute is like 2 miles though, and in the East Bay Area. Mostly flat and arterial roads.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

2006, I think.

They’re gone now - when our motor pool guy asked my opinion, I told him it would be better not to have a motor pool than to have those.

My brother actually has one as a commuter, not sure the year, and he says it’s fine. His commute is like 2 miles though, and in the East Bay Area. Mostly flat and arterial roads.

I didn't have a long drive at any point in the Prius that we rented...and that could certainly be a gamechanger for my opinion. I hate the GMC Terrains that we have as company vehicles and a big part of that is how uncomfortable that they can be if I have to drive out of town in them.

 

[95coug]

I didn't have a long drive at any point in the Prius that we rented...and that could certainly be a gamechanger for my opinion. I hate the GMC Terrains that we have as company vehicles and a big part of that is how uncomfortable that they can be if I have to drive out of town in them.

I used to drive a lot of rental cars for day trips all over the NW. There were several I just couldn’t quite get comfortable in (Chevy Malibu, Nissan Altima). The Prius was probably the worst thing I ever drove, comfort-wise. Had a jeep wrangler once that was the noisiest POS I’ve driven, and it crapped out climbing I-90 at Elk Heights, west of Ellensburg. Enterprise had to swap it for a Nissan Sentra, which is like driving a matchbox car.

Mid-2000s I had requested a mid size but got given “luxury.” I think it was a Buick Regal, and….damn. That car was more comfortable than the hotel I stayed in that night. Brought it back on Friday and they offered to let me keep it for the weekend for $20…and I did.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

I used to drive a lot of rental cars for day trips all over the NW. There were several I just couldn’t quite get comfortable in (Chevy Malibu, Nissan Altima). The Prius was probably the worst thing I ever drove, comfort-wise. Had a jeep wrangler once that was the noisiest POS I’ve driven, and it crapped out climbing I-90 at Elk Heights, west of Ellensburg. Enterprise had to swap it for a Nissan Sentra, which is like driving a matchbox car.

Mid-2000s I had requested a mid size but got given “luxury.” I think it was a Buick Regal, and….damn. That car was more comfortable than the hotel I stayed in that night. Brought it back on Friday and they offered to let me keep it for the weekend for $20…and I did.

Subaru Legacy sedan. 12 years old, 214,000 miles, never a lick of trouble. Roomy as hell, as opposed to some others. Quiet and comfy. I'm 6', could barely fit in the passenger seat of a GF's compact. Mine fits my 270 lb, 6'3" buddy just fine. And with the front seat all the way back you still have ample leg room in back. I can't even put my seat all the way back as it is too far to the pedals.

If I put the back seats down, I can, and have, put a 10 foot 2 by 4 in it. Have to brake carefully so as to not sail it through the windshield. Chevy trucks, Subaru cars. No brainer.

 

[Coug90]

Subaru Legacy sedan. 12 years old, 214,000 miles, never a lick of trouble. Roomy as hell, as opposed to some others. Quiet and comfy. I'm 6', could barely fit in the passenger seat of a GF's compact. Mine fits my 270 lb, 6'3" buddy just fine. And with the front seat all the way back you still have ample leg room in back. I can't even put my seat all the way back as it is too far to the pedals.

If I put the back seats down, I can, and have, put a 10 foot 2 by 4 in it. Have to brake carefully so as to not sail it through the windshield. Chevy trucks, Subaru cars. No brainer.

Subarus are awesome. Had an Outback and loved that car.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

Subarus are awesome. Had an Outback and loved that car.

And with the studs on it can climb a tree. Had a lot of fun back a few years ago when I lived in Olympia (barf) and they had this big snowstorm. City (probably the entire wetside) was paralyzed for days. Except for me, and the studs I had at the time were pretty worn.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

I used to drive a lot of rental cars for day trips all over the NW. There were several I just couldn’t quite get comfortable in (Chevy Malibu, Nissan Altima). The Prius was probably the worst thing I ever drove, comfort-wise. Had a jeep wrangler once that was the noisiest POS I’ve driven, and it crapped out climbing I-90 at Elk Heights, west of Ellensburg. Enterprise had to swap it for a Nissan Sentra, which is like driving a matchbox car.

Mid-2000s I had requested a mid size but got given “luxury.” I think it was a Buick Regal, and….damn. That car was more comfortable than the hotel I stayed in that night. Brought it back on Friday and they offered to let me keep it for the weekend for $20…and I did.

If the worst rental you've ever had is a Prius....you've not lived a full life.

My worst, by a huge margin, was a 1987 Hyundai Excel with a five speed....that was actually a four speed with a placebo fifth gear. I had destroyed the car by the time I was done driving it.

 

[Stretch 74]

I used to drive a lot of rental cars for day trips all over the NW. There were several I just couldn’t quite get comfortable in (Chevy Malibu, Nissan Altima). The Prius was probably the worst thing I ever drove, comfort-wise. Had a jeep wrangler once that was the noisiest POS I’ve driven, and it crapped out climbing I-90 at Elk Heights, west of Ellensburg. Enterprise had to swap it for a Nissan Sentra, which is like driving a matchbox car.

Mid-2000s I had requested a mid size but got given “luxury.” I think it was a Buick Regal, and….damn. That car was more comfortable than the hotel I stayed in that night. Brought it back on Friday and they offered to let me keep it for the weekend for $20…and I did.

I had a Nisan this weekend in PHX, first time I recall having one. Pretty sure it was an Altima and I was NOT impressed. Not comfortable, not a lot of power, mediocre ride and feel. Add in that it was as hard to get in and out of as my 1968 Triumph TR250 (very low to the ground) and the fact that the third taillight hump totally blocked out the view of the car immediately behind you and I think it qualifies as a POS.

Guess I should have taken the Chevy......

 

[Loyal Coug1]

I think it's fair to conclude the scale of the infrastructure buildout is immense, and not talked about enough. By the time it's done, seems like the next magic climate solution will be foisted upon us, with the lobbying for massive government subsidies to make it happen.

We need some flying cars that run on banana peels.

You know what's kind of funny about this - if you look at the old futuristic movies from I don't know - 30-40-50 years ago, the world as they envisioned it sure has not materialized. Examples: Escape from NY (one of my favorites), made in 1981, set in 1997. Snake fighting the big guy in the ring was classic. Nail filled bat to the gut. Ouch! Blade Runner, made in 1982, set in 2019. Replicants, space colonies and yes flying cars.

 

[Stretch 74]

You may really be shocked by the costs the attribute to installing new charging stations as well as their reliability and forecasted operational losses, particularly in states like Dakotas, WY, MT, ID etc.

This article does nothing to convince me that we are NOT being sold an extremely expensive pig in a poke. Pay attention to how much undersupplied California will be for charging stations as they try to force the public to accept getting to 50% EV sales by 2030.

Mega-Jolt: The Costs and Logistics of Plugging In EVs Are About to Become Supercharged

Update, April 2024: Biden’s $7.5B EV Charger Push Yields 7 Stations Washington Post By John Murawski, RealClearInvestigationsOctober 24, 2023 U.S. Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm gave A

www.realclearinvestigations.com

Along the same lines........

The Great 'Green Energy Transition' That Wasn't

townhall.com