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Expectations for the future

What do you expect from WSU under Leach moving ahead?

  • beat the mutts in the AC, anything else is gravy

    Votes: 1 3.7%
  • bowl eligibility is all that matters, who cares how we get there?

    Votes: 7 25.9%
  • bowl eligibility 3 out of 4 years but Top 2 finish in the division once every 4 years

    Votes: 5 18.5%
  • bowl eligible most years but Pac-12 North championship once every 4 years

    Votes: 11 40.7%
  • Have to win a conference championship in the next 4 years

    Votes: 3 11.1%

  • Total voters
    27

Flatlandcoug

Hall Of Fame
Aug 14, 2007
9,358
3,012
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Wichita, Kansas
I was reading a thread on Facebook that was posted to the Die Hard Cougs about the foolishness of ASU and Texas A&M firing coaches with 7 win seasons. There is an article out there that points to Minnesota's firing of Glen Mason in 2006 after a 6-7 season and their subsequent struggles over the next 4 years as proof that you shouldn't fire a coach with a winning record if his biggest failure is to continue raising the bar. For reference, here are the records of Glen Mason at Minnesota:

1997: 3-9
1998: 5-7
1999: 8-4
2000: 6-6
2001: 4-7
2002: 8-5
2003: 10-3
2004: 7-5
2005: 7-5
2006: 6-7

Minnesota had only been to a few bowl games in their history before Mason and he led them to seven bowl games in 10 years. So, given the wailing and gnashing of teeth that we've heard after our current 9-4 season, what is your expectation of success for WSU for you to be happy with Leach?
 
Polls like that leave out too many variable data points. We’ve played for the division championship on the final week of the season 2 years in a row, and 3 years ago we beat Miami in a bowl game.

Leach has a lifetime contract with WSU if he continues that performance.
 
I was reading a thread on Facebook that was posted to the Die Hard Cougs about the foolishness of ASU and Texas A&M firing coaches with 7 win seasons. There is an article out there that points to Minnesota's firing of Glen Mason in 2006 after a 6-7 season and their subsequent struggles over the next 4 years as proof that you shouldn't fire a coach with a winning record if his biggest failure is to continue raising the bar. For reference, here are the records of Glen Mason at Minnesota:

1997: 3-9
1998: 5-7
1999: 8-4
2000: 6-6
2001: 4-7
2002: 8-5
2003: 10-3
2004: 7-5
2005: 7-5
2006: 6-7

Minnesota had only been to a few bowl games in their history before Mason and he led them to seven bowl games in 10 years. So, given the wailing and gnashing of teeth that we've heard after our current 9-4 season, what is your expectation of success for WSU for you to be happy with Leach?
any coach worth their salt should be able to get just about any team to .500, especially given every team gets 3 cupcakes every season. Having .500/ bowl game as a goal/ high water mark is about the same as having waking up as a goal - its just what' expected, anything less is abject failure.

So, what are long term program expectations? Consistently competing for a NC is unrealistic. That would be a stretch goal to put it lightly.

So playoff then? Again, probably a bit of a reach to expect to get there consistently, but given that conference champs are likely to get the nod it should align with our conference championship goals.

I would say that we should get to the p12 championship game every four years AND be competitive in said game.
 
Polls like that leave out too many variable data points. We’ve played for the division championship on the final week of the season 2 years in a row.

Why'd I know someone would try to say that like it was true. I'm on mobile so I'm not going to go into detail, but if you actually believe that we were "competing" for the P12N you're fooling yourself.
 
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Why'd I know someone would try to say that like it was true. I'm on mobile so I'm not going to go into detail, but if you actually believe that we were "competing" for the P12N you're fooling yourself.

What are you talking about? The only team we haven’t competed with is UW, and they’ve been a fantastic team with a defense that matches up dominantly well against us. Other than that, we’ve gone 6-1 against Stanford, Oregon, and USC the past 3 years.

If you play a 9 game conference schedule and winning the final game of the season earns you the P12N championship, you’re “competing for the championship.”
 
What are you talking about? The only team we haven’t competed with is UW, and they’ve been a fantastic team with a defense that matches up dominantly well against us. Other than that, we’ve gone 6-1 against Stanford, Oregon, and USC the past 3 years.

If you play a 9 game conference schedule and winning the final game of the season earns you the P12N championship, you’re “competing for the championship.”

Your membership in the $600,000 Club has officially been revoked.
 
There is no future with two fat, mentally ill despots with bad haircuts and nuclear weapons at their fingertips...

I was reading a thread on Facebook that was posted to the Die Hard Cougs about the foolishness of ASU and Texas A&M firing coaches with 7 win seasons. There is an article out there that points to Minnesota's firing of Glen Mason in 2006 after a 6-7 season and their subsequent struggles over the next 4 years as proof that you shouldn't fire a coach with a winning record if his biggest failure is to continue raising the bar. For reference, here are the records of Glen Mason at Minnesota:

1997: 3-9
1998: 5-7
1999: 8-4
2000: 6-6
2001: 4-7
2002: 8-5
2003: 10-3
2004: 7-5
2005: 7-5
2006: 6-7

Minnesota had only been to a few bowl games in their history before Mason and he led them to seven bowl games in 10 years. So, given the wailing and gnashing of teeth that we've heard after our current 9-4 season, what is your expectation of success for WSU for you to be happy with Leach?
 
Last edited:
Polls like that leave out too many variable data points. We’ve played for the division championship on the final week of the season 2 years in a row, and 3 years ago we beat Miami in a bowl game.

Leach has a lifetime contract with WSU if he continues that performance.

FWIW, the last two seasons are basically the "2nd in the Pac-12 North" option. I didn't want to burden it with too many options and I agree that it's tough to get the nuances that someone might feel is important. So far, it's pretty obvious that the fans here want us to compete at a high level but realize that breaking though to the top every year isn't a fair or realistic position at this point in time. I'm glad to see that the winning option isn't option 2....which is essentially "anything is better than Wulff". I'd like to think we have higher standards than that and it appears that we do.

This is going to sound bad but I almost look forward to a 6-6 season next year. People will bitch and moan but then they'll actually appreciate 8 or 9 wins when they happen again and they'll be thrilled with 10 wins. As it is right now, there's a sense that if we had beaten Michigan State, it wouldn't have been joy, people would be saying "Finally!"......which is kind of crappy but just how people are.
 
Bowl eligible almost every year with 9-10-11 win spikes every 4 or so years and the occasional down year or 2 in the 5/6 win range. sports ebb and flow too much to expect consistent improvement in record from year to year. That would eventually get you to Alabama and that's not happening. For every win someone has to lose. Even good coaches lose games and have bad years. Without someone dropping $100 mil in the AD budget pot WSU will never sustain even 8+ wins season after season after season no matter who is coaching. I think even with Leach it would take the perfect storm of enough good players within 2 classes of each other to get us in the 0-1 loss zone and PAC 12 champs. We might win a couple if he's here long enough, but I think it will be with 2-3 loss overall. Something like 1 loss each to a north and south team.
 
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Building the program.
Going to the Post Season.

That's my expectations. Because that is actually realistic, and I'm not someone who is delusional.

If you want to build a program with a "winning tradition" you actually have to win.... traditionally.

I hate to break it to some people, but when you hadn't gone to a bowl in a DECADE you have no winning tradition.

But but Mike Price. Those years are over. And have been over. Honestly cougs that try to put the very best years of the Pirce Era (Of a 14 year career) are unrealistic.

If Leach coaches every single year and has us at 8-9 years from here to when he leaves I would be absolutely ecstatic. Thrilled beyond belief.

Because you know what that means? That means almost an entire generation grew up watching WSU compete and win more than they lose in the Pac-12 and that's a different status then what we have been known for the previous decade.

Building a programs means several things.

Building recruiting classes
Building attendance
Building a National Presence
Building a tradition of winning more than losing.

Those are the goals.

WSU could collapse back to being a doormat at any time. Every assistant that comes through WSU on their way to moving up in their career that comes from Leach's tree is an assistant who could be a head coach for WSU in the future.

Alex Grinch is young. He could be a WSU HC in 8 years.
Roy Manning could be a WSU HC in the future
Dennis Simmons could be a WSU HC in the future.

Coach's that could walk in the future and build on what Leach has put together in the future are...

Lincoln Riley
Josh Heupel
Graham Harell
Seth Litrell
Sumlin

etc. etc. etc.

What Leach brings is not just Leach, but a type of program, a style of play, a culture... THAT WE CAN BUILD ON.

Honestly this class that Leach has signed right now is the BEST one I have seen from him. And that's what happens when you have 3 winning seasons in a row. The recruiting gets better, it gets easier.

That's what we have to keep doing.

If Leach has 4 classes like the one he is realing in this year I think we win 10+ games in the 5th year.

It's almost as if we are starting back at year 1 with Leach now.

But instead of some WAC team that had only won 9 games the previous 4 years.

He is coaching a team that won 29 games the previous 4 years now. That makes a HUGE difference.

Just think about what that actually means as a program. And the difference in perception.
Previous 4 years - 9 games
Previous 4 years - 29 games.

If we have another winning season with a bare minimum of 7 wins the previous 4 year total jumps to 33.

Previous 4 years - 9 games
Previous 4 years - 33 games

What that really means. Is that a Senior in highschool on the west coast, watched WSU having winning seasons their ENTIRE HS career.

That makes a GIGANTIC difference in recruiting. THAT is building a program.

Winning a championship is amazing and beating the Huskies is a pleasure, but I am not one to throw out the baby with the bath water, and the baby is building a consistent winning tradition at Washington State.

Oregon is on their 3rd HC coach in 3 years. - # of losing seasons 1
Cal is on their 3rd HC in 6 years. # of losing seasons - 5

Oregon has unlimited $
Cal has premiere academics

And those programs are severely under performing.

The best example I can give to people about how to build a program is boise. As much as we all want to bag on Trucker U and all that. The truth is Boise has had success building a program., and it didn't start with Peterson.

It started with Dirk Koetter who started a winning tradition at Boise. Yes he wasn't that great of a coach at Arizona State, but still. The guy is now a HC in the NFL. (all be it also not that great, but still he is a guy who helped build Boise)

Boise got back to back winning seasons. Then he left.
Hawkins took over 5 winning seasons. Then he left. And yes he wasn't that great a Colorado.

But Boise as a Program had 7 straight years of winning seasons.
Then 7 years of winning season.

Then Petersen took over and produced ANOTHER 7 years of winning seasons.

Then Harsin took over and again 4 more years of winning seasons.

That's a total of 18 years STRAIGHT (since 1999) of winning seasons with 4 different coaches.

That means that a senior today in highschool has NEVER seen boise state have a losing season in their lifetime. In their lifetime.

Yes blah blah blah Big West, Wac, MWC. Still. The fact is Boise State built a winning tradition over a long period of time, and that's why Boise beats us out for players sometimes.even though they don't have the academics or the conference prestige.

In the last 18 years you want to know how many winning seasons WSU has had? (Since 1999) 6. TOTAL. And Leach has half of them.


18 years of winning seasons
2 runs of 3 (one of which we are in right now)


People cry about the Apple Cup and the Holiday bowl, but the truth is we aren't at the program level of UW or Michigan State.

How many winning seasons has Michigan State had in the last 18 years? 11

We've had six. They've had 11.

In the last 10 years. They've had 9.
We've had 3.

My expectation is consistently to have winning records for an extended amount of time. I don't give a damn about indivudal games. I care about overall program growth and development.

Why?

Because that's the only real way to consistently get to the level that people are complaining about. You might get a flash in the pan season, but with droughts of numerous losing seasons around it doesn't mean that much. Not in the grand scheme.

WSU isn't like Michigan where we can take a swing and miss on Rich Rod, Brady Hoke, and what not and recover. Just as quickly as Leach got us to 9 wins in year 4 we can be back to Paul Wulff level in less than 4.

Also what Leach is doing is making WSU an attractive place for FUTURE coaches. Which is important.

Honestly the WSU job after Wulff could easily be taken as a career suicide job for other coaches. You can say well we can offer money blah blah blah.

But keep in mind. That money may be yours, but if you can't win with less. Than forget it, because we don't have the recruiting base to draw from, we don't have the intense football culture to support the efforts finacially, and we don't have the draw to attract recruits like others.

Most coaches don't want to run that risk. Even GOOD coaches are afraid of that because it's hard. It's not easy to do. If it were easy. We would have a consistent winning tradition all that time.

Leach winning consistently paves the way for someone else good to say. Washington State? Yeah I can do that, that's a good program.

They couldn't say that before. We weren't a good program. We didn't have a consistent track record as a good program. So why risk my career going there?

What Leach is doing is important for the future of WSU football, and honestly I could care less about people's delusions of grandeur championships blah blah blah talk. We aren't a program that can talk like that. That's what 10 years of winning seasons talk. We are only on year 3.
 
Why'd I know someone would try to say that like it was true. I'm on mobile so I'm not going to go into detail, but if you actually believe that we were "competing" for the P12N you're fooling yourself.

Please go into detail. We were a missed field goal away from the North Championship in 2015. We beat the North Cahmpion this year. There was only one team in this years Apple Cup playing for a North Title.
 
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It started with Dirk Koetter who started a winning tradition at Boise. Yes he wasn't that great of a coach at Arizona State, but still. The guy is now a HC in the NFL. (all be it also not that great, but still he is a guy who helped build Boise)

It actually started way before that. BSU was a power under Lyle Smith back in the day. Pokey Allen had it rolling until cancer chewed him up.

Houston Nutt was only there a year but showed they could play at the D1 level and brought in very good talent.

Koetter did one good thing - he brought in Hawkins from Willamette who then turned around and hired Chris Petersen who had played for Hawkins at UC Davis.

Koetter was good but he wasn't the guy who set BSU football on fire.
 
Tron, good post. People want to believe that at WSU, you can rebuild a team like you can at USC. At schools not blue blood, it takes time and builds upon itself with each season.

Heck, even at schools like the uw, it took time to recover from Willingham. People here hate him (I don't), but Steve Sarkisian laid the ground work for the success that the uw had the last two years. Willingham destroyed recruiting in California and also turned off many high school in the state of Washington.

By the end, Sarkisian had recruited a ton of talent to the uw. But, it took years and each year of going to a bowl helped him to recruit better and better classes If not for his personal problems, people would think much differently about him. Petersen stepped into a program that was ready to take off.

Similar things are happening with WSU. Each successful year that Leach has in WSU builds upon itself. Unfortunately, the success brings other schools raiding our coaches more than other schools. Losing Grinch hurts, but because of his success, it should help to hire another good DC.

Losing Manning hurts recruiting bigtime. He was hired by Kelley for one reason, recruiting. Recruiting is a relationship building process over years. Now, UCLA is going to benefit for the years that Manning was at WSU. Leach will put another coach in LA, but unless that coach has already been recruiting LA, the new coach will be starting from scratch.

Ultimately, this is a good thing because it means WSU is successful. But, it does show some limitations that make it harder to compete in Pullman.
 
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Tron used 30% more words than necessary, but pretty much everything he said was correct.

College athletics (any sport) is a process. It takes a unique person to head the process. CML's tree shows that he is much better than most at developing the process...the evidence is the guys who have come out of that process. They don't all run the identical offensive or defensive systems, but they are all products of the process that CML puts into place.

The title of this thread was "Expectations for the Future". I think that as long as the process is in place, the results will be good. They will vary from year to year due to the strength of our opponents, our skill and experience level at key positions, home vs. away, etc...even the location of the bye week has a little outside-imposed impact. But we will consistently be in the upper half of the league as long as the process is honored and no disasters involving death, illness, etc., strike.
 
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