Federal layoff/firings

[Loyal Coug1]

OK, new ground here. Having been in the public sector for much of my career, and lamenting largesse, waste and laziness the entire time, I am all for reducing waste and unnecessary governmental spending. But this is no way to do it. Trump, Musk and their minions are just randomly ruining the lives of thousands of people with no notice and no real justification because, well, they can. These probationary employees? Well we can fire you without notice, we don't give a F whether you are good or your job really is justifiable, you are gone. This Iowa Park Ranger (article below) is a good example. Married with a son and a baby on the way, he is fired with no notice. Just because he was recently hired, so they could get rid of him. Billionaires ruining people's lives just to feed their own egos. No criteria, no thorough agency review, just "we can fire you without notice so we are".

MSN

Now - question for you legal types. I have been directly involved in situations where probationary employees had to be let go. And the golden rule was that we didn't have to give a reason, so don't. In fact, we didn't want to give a reason, as the employee could use that to claim wrongful dismissal. So what about this Park Ranger whose dismissal notice said that he "failed to demonstrate fitness or qualifications for continued employment" even though his previous performance review was "exceeded expectations"? How's that dismissal reason going to look as he tries to get another job? Has he not been damaged, and thus will have grounds to sue? I bet the attorneys, like vultures, are already circling all the federal employees who got similar career-damaging notices. Which is apparently thousands. And in this case they should be circling.

But hey this is what the American people wanted. But is it?

 

[Flatlandcoug]

My brother was diagnosed with cancer in 2018 and has nearly died twice in the mean time. A large part of his tongue was removed and he is a very frail 100 lbs. When I read stories about cutting Medicaid and eliminating waste, I worry that they are going to deem him expendable and cut him off. He'll be dead within a year courtesy of the greed of billionaires. Good times.

 

[CougEd]

OK, new ground here. Having been in the public sector for much of my career, and lamenting largesse, waste and laziness the entire time, I am all for reducing waste and unnecessary governmental spending. But this is no way to do it. Trump, Musk and their minions are just randomly ruining the lives of thousands of people with no notice and no real justification because, well, they can. These probationary employees? Well we can fire you without notice, we don't give a F whether you are good or your job really is justifiable, you are gone. This Iowa Park Ranger (article below) is a good example. Married with a son and a baby on the way, he is fired with no notice. Just because he was recently hired, so they could get rid of him. Billionaires ruining people's lives just to feed their own egos. No criteria, no thorough agency review, just "we can fire you without notice so we are".

MSN

Now - question for you legal types. I have been directly involved in situations where probationary employees had to be let go. And the golden rule was that we didn't have to give a reason, so don't. In fact, we didn't want to give a reason, as the employee could use that to claim wrongful dismissal. So what about this Park Ranger whose dismissal notice said that he "failed to demonstrate fitness or qualifications for continued employment" even though his previous performance review was "exceeded expectations"? How's that dismissal reason going to look as he tries to get another job? Has he not been damaged, and thus will have grounds to sue? I bet the attorneys, like vultures, are already circling all the federal employees who got similar career-damaging notices. Which is apparently thousands. And in this case they should be circling.

But hey this is what the American people wanted. But is it?

It's what half the country wanted. We will see how well Trumps plan works out for the many people who voted for him . Not overly comfortable with someone as smart as Musk with our personal data.

Just saw the movie The Big Short again last night and reminded what happens when the rich run us...making best on bets that mortgages go bad. Making bad mortgages. And unfortunately Dodd/Frank made the big banks even bigger when three pieces of regulations would have prevented the mortgage crisis and people would have kept them from losing everything....except those who where on the right side of the bet and shorted everything.

And the craziest of it all...the three people who cleaned up the mess after "we" gave the banks handouts and freebies were the three who gave us all the bad designed products that sent us over the edge...Paulson, Geitner and Bernanke.

But yep, let Musk and Big Baller 25 year old racist have our social, our banking info etc.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

It's what half the country wanted. We will see how well Trumps plan works out for the many people who voted for him . Not overly comfortable with someone as smart as Musk with our personal data.

Just saw the movie The Big Short again last night and reminded what happens when the rich run us...making best on bets that mortgages go bad. Making bad mortgages. And unfortunately Dodd/Frank made the big banks even bigger when three pieces of regulations would have prevented the mortgage crisis and people would have kept them from losing everything....except those who where on the right side of the bet and shorted everything.

And the craziest of it all...the three people who cleaned up the mess after "we" gave the banks handouts and freebies were the three who gave us all the bad designed products that sent us over the edge...Paulson, Geitner and Bernanke.

But yep, let Musk and Big Baller 25 year old racist have our social, our banking info etc.

Well, 27% of the country voted for him. Unfortunately, almost half of people eligible to vote choose to sit at home and bitch about the government instead.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

Well, 27% of the country voted for him. Unfortunately, almost half of people eligible to vote choose to sit at home and bitch about the government instead.

Yep. I voted though. Another article on the firings, detailing the senseless human cost and elimination of good employees. Getting rid of exactly the wrong people. It doesn't take the superior mind of the Loyal One to predict shitloads of lawsuits which will go on for years. And be successful. On our dime.........

MSN

 

[CougEd]

Yep. I voted though. Another article on the firings, detailing the senseless human cost and elimination of good employees. Getting rid of exactly the wrong people. It doesn't take the superior mind of the Loyal One to predict shitloads of lawsuits which will go on for years. And be successful. On our dime.........

MSN

Elections have consequences. Maybe Musk will be the one greedy billionaire who is just making us more efficient. Chances are he might be like Wall Street and mortgages, or Enron and power. Personally I sleep better when people are slightly incompetent than those who can competently steal you blind.

But if he gets us to reduce that work force, what I have learned machines don't buy wheat, apples, or cars. There will be a ripple effect. Then have all these people sucking off the public money versus paying into it.

Four crashes since Trump took over. They fired nuke workers then have been trying to hire them back. The farmers will pay the price like the ones in Whitman County. I bet they have some wheat that was in the aid package

If Ice is efficient they will go after the farm workers.

You know in LaQuinta, how many of the workers that work in the 8 million and up private clubs do you believe are legal, and how many do you bet get deported? Not they get rid of the rich folks help.

Interesting times .....

 

[95coug]

Yep. I voted though. Another article on the firings, detailing the senseless human cost and elimination of good employees. Getting rid of exactly the wrong people. It doesn't take the superior mind of the Loyal One to predict shitloads of lawsuits which will go on for years. And be successful. On our dime.........

MSN

It’s going to get a hell of a lot worse before it gets better…and it probably doesn’t get better before 2028.

Musk is on record saying that if you don’t add back, you didn’t cut deep enough. That approach might work when you’re dealing with corporate stuff, but now the stakes are higher. This is money, jobs, and programs that actually mean lives. Not livelihoods - lives. They don’t even know what they’re cutting, they’re just cutting what they can.

The other one that got my attention was when they reduced the allowances for research grant overhead to 15%. Sorry, I’d bet that even Starlink, Space-X, and X run at higher than 15% overhead, there’s zero chance any university research is ever getting that low.

 

[CougEd]

It’s going to get a hell of a lot worse before it gets better…and it probably doesn’t get better before 2028.

Musk is on record saying that if you don’t add back, you didn’t cut deep enough. That approach might work when you’re dealing with corporate stuff, but now the stakes are higher. This is money, jobs, and programs that actually mean lives. Not livelihoods - lives. They don’t even know what they’re cutting, they’re just cutting what they can.

The other one that got my attention was when they reduced the allowances for research grant overhead to 15%. Sorry, I’d bet that even Starlink, Space-X, and X run at higher than 15% overhead, there’s zero chance any university research is ever getting that low.

Cmon...this is what MAGA wanted.....

If it goes south man there will be hell to pay even if dems aren't smart enough to capitalize.

 

[roses04]

Interest how I keep hearing this: . Another article on the firings, detailing the senseless human cost and elimination of good employees. Getting rid of exactly the wrong people.

This is the first time government employees have had to deal with something like this, you could say this about the private sector over and over again for the last 50 years. Look at the consolidation of the Banking Industry, Retail, manufacturing, think Boeing, the auto industry, look at all the people that lost their jobs and businesses during covid, how about all the people working on the pipeline, or oil industry jobs, corporate consolidations, we can go on and on. The list of good people losing jobs, their livelihood, and having financial issues, due to government or market conditions has been going on for years, until now government employees have been safe. Well the government is inefficient, the government has a spending problem, and it needs to be fixed if the US ever plans on reducing the deficit.

Not sure this is the best way to do it, but something needs to be done. If they are wrong in their approach, they all get voted out, and we are onto the next party in charge. While I empathize with these people and what they are going through, many people have gone through the same thing or worse, so let's not make is sound like the government employees are suffering more than others that have gone through the same thing over the years. Getting laid off suddenly sucks, it's happened to many, many employees over the years.

 

[dgibbons]

Interest how I keep hearing this: . Another article on the firings, detailing the senseless human cost and elimination of good employees. Getting rid of exactly the wrong people.

This is the first time government employees have had to deal with something like this, you could say this about the private sector over and over again for the last 50 years. Look at the consolidation of the Banking Industry, Retail, manufacturing, think Boeing, the auto industry, look at all the people that lost their jobs and businesses during covid, how about all the people working on the pipeline, or oil industry jobs, corporate consolidations, we can go on and on. The list of good people losing jobs, their livelihood, and having financial issues, due to government or market conditions has been going on for years, until now government employees have been safe. Well the government is inefficient, the government has a spending problem, and it needs to be fixed if the US ever plans on reducing the deficit.

Not sure this is the best way to do it, but something needs to be done. If they are wrong in their approach, they all get voted out, and we are onto the next party in charge. While I empathize with these people and what they are going through, many people have gone through the same thing or worse, so let's not make is sound like the government employees are suffering more than others that have gone through the same thing over the years. Getting laid off suddenly sucks, it's happened to many, many employees over the years.

Adding that the midterms are in two years and the presidential election is in four years. That's basically nothing in politics, and it's not at all difficult to run out a two or four year clock. "Going to Congress", proposing some legislation, committee hearings, amendments, full House and Senate hearings, amendments to reconcile the bills, etc. means if it happens at all, it will be watered down and delayed.

I don't know that this is the best way to go about either, but it's reasonable NOT to repeat the same things that haven't worked in the past. "Going to Congress" is inherently asking the people with the spending problem to cut back. Doesn't seem likely to accomplish much. And it seems quite reasonable to me for the executive branch to oversee, audit, whatever you want to call it, the executive branch.

 

[CougEd]

Adding that the midterms are in two years and the presidential election is in four years. That's basically nothing in politics, and it's not at all difficult to run out a two or four year clock. "Going to Congress", proposing some legislation, committee hearings, amendments, full House and Senate hearings, amendments to reconcile the bills, etc. means if it happens at all, it will be watered down and delayed.

I don't know that this is the best way to go about either, but it's reasonable NOT to repeat the same things that haven't worked in the past. "Going to Congress" is inherently asking the people with the spending problem to cut back. Doesn't seem likely to accomplish much. And it seems quite reasonable to me for the executive branch to oversee, audit, whatever you want to call it, the executive branch.

Not sure how blanket cutting services without knowing the tentacles and not being more surgical just to cut enough so the billionaires can keep their tax cuts without raising the deficit is a good solution

Warren Buffet has a better solution... if congress can't keep the budget in line have it as a rule to run in congress you have a certain number .

 

[dgibbons]

Not sure how blanket cutting services without knowing the tentacles and not being more surgical just to cut enough so ghe billionaires can keep their tax cuts without raising the deficit is a hood solution

Wareen Budffet has a better solution... if congress can't keep the budget in line have it as a rule to run in congress you have a certain number .

Can we use English, grammar and punctuation today?

And your opposition to anything Trump does is already assumed. No virtue signal needed.

 

[Cougar_Guy]

Adding that the midterms are in two years and the presidential election is in four years. That's basically nothing in politics, and it's not at all difficult to run out a two or four year clock. "Going to Congress", proposing some legislation, committee hearings, amendments, full House and Senate hearings, amendments to reconcile the bills, etc. means if it happens at all, it will be watered down and delayed.

I don't know that this is the best way to go about either, but it's reasonable NOT to repeat the same things that haven't worked in the past. "Going to Congress" is inherently asking the people with the spending problem to cut back. Doesn't seem likely to accomplish much. And it seems quite reasonable to me for the executive branch to oversee, audit, whatever you want to call it, the executive branch.

Bill Clinton's administration used a systematic approach that trimmed some 400k jobs from the government and also balanced the federal budget. It was even done in a bipartisan fashion. I don't know why a similar approach could not be used now with great success, especially considering Republicans control both legislative bodies and the executive office. What is happening now is just chaos.

To roses04's point about private sector layoffs, people in the private sector are paid more than employees who do the same job in government and are often given separation packages that help soften the blow of being laid off (buffering the risk of being laid off). Folks who work for the government often accept the lower wages because they want to serve their country and are willing to accept lower wages for the (supposed) stability these positions offer. Just jettisoning people with no rhyme or reason and no warning is just cruel. And these probationary employees (who are being fired in large swaths) would be the ones making the lowest wages; generally speaking downsizing is more successful when you move on from more tenured, higher paid staff.

I'm all for downsizing the government, but I disagree with a strategy that is unorganized, and likely unlawful at many junctures. Firing and rehiring is inefficient and wastes taxpayer dollars. Having to defend numerous lawsuits wastes taxpayer dollars. Breaking a bunch of laws hoping you will redefine a few legal precedents in the courts to me is unethical. Again, Republicans control all chambers and could pass new legislation if they want to change the course of business (such as Humphrey's Executor et al).

 

[dgibbons]

Bill Clinton's administration used a systematic approach that trimmed some 400k jobs from the government and also balanced the federal budget. It was even done in a bipartisan fashion. I don't know why a similar approach could not be used now with great success, especially considering Republicans control both legislative bodies and the executive office. What is happening now is just chaos.

To roses04's point about private sector layoffs, people in the private sector are paid more than employees who do the same job in government and are often given separation packages that help soften the blow of being laid off (buffering the risk of being laid off). Folks who work for the government often accept the lower wages because they want to serve their country and are willing to accept lower wages for the (supposed) stability these positions offer. Just jettisoning people with no rhyme or reason and no warning is just cruel. And these probationary employees (who are being fired in large swaths) would be the ones making the lowest wages; generally speaking downsizing is more successful when you move on from more tenured, higher paid staff.

I'm all for downsizing the government, but I disagree with a strategy that is unorganized, and likely unlawful at many junctures. Firing and rehiring is inefficient and wastes taxpayer dollars. Having to defend numerous lawsuits wastes taxpayer dollars. Breaking a bunch of laws hoping you will redefine a few legal precedents in the courts to me is unethical. Again, Republicans control all chambers and could pass new legislation if they want to change the course of business (such as Humphrey's Executor et al).

A two year or four year clock is nothing, as stated. Easy to run those out in politics.

I also think that Trump is manufacturing a bargaining chip. He tells Schumer and Jeffries to get him a few votes on his big, beautiful bill, and then engages Congress on spending reductions.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Bill Clinton's administration used a systematic approach that trimmed some 400k jobs from the government and also balanced the federal budget. It was even done in a bipartisan fashion. I don't know why a similar approach could not be used now with great success, especially considering Republicans control both legislative bodies and the executive office. What is happening now is just chaos.

To roses04's point about private sector layoffs, people in the private sector are paid more than employees who do the same job in government and are often given separation packages that help soften the blow of being laid off (buffering the risk of being laid off). Folks who work for the government often accept the lower wages because they want to serve their country and are willing to accept lower wages for the (supposed) stability these positions offer. Just jettisoning people with no rhyme or reason and no warning is just cruel. And these probationary employees (who are being fired in large swaths) would be the ones making the lowest wages; generally speaking downsizing is more successful when you move on from more tenured, higher paid staff.

I'm all for downsizing the government, but I disagree with a strategy that is unorganized, and likely unlawful at many junctures. Firing and rehiring is inefficient and wastes taxpayer dollars. Having to defend numerous lawsuits wastes taxpayer dollars. Breaking a bunch of laws hoping you will redefine a few legal precedents in the courts to me is unethical. Again, Republicans control all chambers and could pass new legislation if they want to change the course of business (such as Humphrey's Executor et al).

You make the mistake of assuming that rehiring is on the agenda. My expectation is that the new Plutocracy is going to start pushing the idea that almost all of the services that used to be performed by government agencies will be done by private companies founded and owned by our new plutocratic overlords.

 

[dgibbons]

You make the mistake of assuming that rehiring is on the agenda. My expectation is that the new Plutocracy is going to start pushing the idea that almost all of the services that used to be performed by government agencies will be done by private companies founded and owned by our new plutocratic overlords.

Instead of through the network of NGOs that currently exists?

 

[Loyal Coug1]

It’s going to get a hell of a lot worse before it gets better…and it probably doesn’t get better before 2028.

Musk is on record saying that if you don’t add back, you didn’t cut deep enough. That approach might work when you’re dealing with corporate stuff, but now the stakes are higher. This is money, jobs, and programs that actually mean lives. Not livelihoods - lives. They don’t even know what they’re cutting, they’re just cutting what they can.

The other one that got my attention was when they reduced the allowances for research grant overhead to 15%. Sorry, I’d bet that even Starlink, Space-X, and X run at higher than 15% overhead, there’s zero chance any university research is ever getting that low.

Not sure if everyone (or anyone?) here actually knows or understands what this research grant overhead is, so a quick primer.

For most federal and state grants, institutions get to add in a cost recovery amount to cover "overhead". Central accounting, facilities, payroll, etc. that provide indirect benefits to the research. This used to be called ICR (Indirect Cost Recovery) but is now known as F&A (Facilities and Administrative). The % amount of these are negotiated with the relevant Fed Agency. I worked on several of these agreements during my career. Anyone know what WSU's primary federal F&A rate is? 53% (link below). So yeah cutting that to 15% will/would be devastating, as this money basically goes into the hopper and is allocated to administration, the colleges, etc.

https://wpcdn.web.wsu.edu/wp-fais/uploads/sites/3079/2019/08/WSU-FA-Rate-Agreement-2019-2023.pdf

Now having actually worked on these rate agreements, I always thought they were kind of high and contrived. Not illegal, not fraud, just the rules. And every University has their own rates. Some higher, some lower. Which seems kind of nuts to me. So the notion of saying "OK, one rate for everyone" appeals to me. but to go from 53% (for WSU) to 15% immediately? That's beyond chaos, it's calamity. And how do you do this for already-funded projects? Now add in grants that will just be totally unfunded, multiply the misery x2. And as I've stated, I'm all for looking at every Federal grant nationwide and determining which aren't as important as other things, like funding SS or replacing infrastructure or whatever. But again, you can't just go in and cancel existing grants and contracts. There is no fine print at the bottom that says "Oh and we can just terminate your 5-year grant with no notice or compensation". Explain that to WSU's Grizzly bears. Sorry, no more food for you. We'll just open the gate and let you fend for yourselves.

WSU's Regents just had a special all-day meeting (yesterday) on budget, with this being a major topic.

95, I know you know this stuff, feel free to correct anything above. I've been out of it for a while now.

 

[Loyal Coug1]

Bill Clinton's administration used a systematic approach that trimmed some 400k jobs from the government and also balanced the federal budget. It was even done in a bipartisan fashion. I don't know why a similar approach could not be used now with great success, especially considering Republicans control both legislative bodies and the executive office. What is happening now is just chaos.

To roses04's point about private sector layoffs, people in the private sector are paid more than employees who do the same job in government and are often given separation packages that help soften the blow of being laid off (buffering the risk of being laid off). Folks who work for the government often accept the lower wages because they want to serve their country and are willing to accept lower wages for the (supposed) stability these positions offer. Just jettisoning people with no rhyme or reason and no warning is just cruel. And these probationary employees (who are being fired in large swaths) would be the ones making the lowest wages; generally speaking downsizing is more successful when you move on from more tenured, higher paid staff.

I'm all for downsizing the government, but I disagree with a strategy that is unorganized, and likely unlawful at many junctures. Firing and rehiring is inefficient and wastes taxpayer dollars. Having to defend numerous lawsuits wastes taxpayer dollars. Breaking a bunch of laws hoping you will redefine a few legal precedents in the courts to me is unethical. Again, Republicans control all chambers and could pass new legislation if they want to change the course of business (such as Humphrey's Executor et al).

Spot on buddy. Agree with your entire post.

 

[Stretch 74]

Bill Clinton's administration used a systematic approach that trimmed some 400k jobs from the government and also balanced the federal budget. It was even done in a bipartisan fashion. I don't know why a similar approach could not be used now with great success, especially considering Republicans control both legislative bodies and the executive office. What is happening now is just chaos.

To roses04's point about private sector layoffs, people in the private sector are paid more than employees who do the same job in government and are often given separation packages that help soften the blow of being laid off (buffering the risk of being laid off). Folks who work for the government often accept the lower wages because they want to serve their country and are willing to accept lower wages for the (supposed) stability these positions offer. Just jettisoning people with no rhyme or reason and no warning is just cruel. And these probationary employees (who are being fired in large swaths) would be the ones making the lowest wages; generally speaking downsizing is more successful when you move on from more tenured, higher paid staff.

I'm all for downsizing the government, but I disagree with a strategy that is unorganized, and likely unlawful at many junctures. Firing and rehiring is inefficient and wastes taxpayer dollars. Having to defend numerous lawsuits wastes taxpayer dollars. Breaking a bunch of laws hoping you will redefine a few legal precedents in the courts to me is unethical. Again, Republicans control all chambers and could pass new legislation if they want to change the course of business (such as Humphrey's Executor et al).

You really don't know why a similar approach won't work now? I'll tell you why. Because the Dems are fatally infected with TDS and they totally, completely, 100% hate Donald Trump. They called him a Nazi, said he was worse than Hitler, and do not understand anything other than trying to destroy him. They truly are incapable of seeing the better good for the country in trying to work together. They think that if they can destroy Trump then they can return to power quicker. That will be very interesting to see how it plays out.

I know that it used to be that government workers got paid less in exchange for more job security than those in the private sector that were more exposed to cyclical economic ups and downs, but that has changed over the years. Perhaps that is due to the influence of government employee unions? Whatever the reason(s), federal worker's with bachelor's degrees and less education make more than private sector, master's degrees make slightly less in government, and only in the private sector do PhD/professional degree holders make significantly more than the government workers with comparable degrees.

Just because a few lower level judges have ruled against what is happening does NOT mean that laws are being broken. We are going to have to wait until all of the lawsuits are fully adjudicated to determine that, but I believe that most of those lawsuits will fail. The founders through our Constitution gave the president significant amounts of power and it is silly to think that some of these district court judges have more power than the president in how to run all of the departments and agencies under his (and eventually, someday her) power.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2024-04/59970-Compensation.pdf

 

[Loyal Coug1]

You really don't know why a similar approach won't work now? I'll tell you why. Because the Dems are fatally infected with TDS and they totally, completely, 100% hate Donald Trump. They called him a Nazi, said he was worse than Hitler, and do not understand anything other than trying to destroy him. They truly are incapable of seeing the better good for the country in trying to work together. They think that if they can destroy Trump then they can return to power quicker. That will be very interesting to see how it plays out.

I know that it used to be that government workers got paid less in exchange for more job security than those in the private sector that were more exposed to cyclical economic ups and downs, but that has changed over the years. Perhaps that is due to the influence of government employee unions? Whatever the reason(s), federal worker's with bachelor's degrees and less education make more than private sector, master's degrees make slightly less in government, and only in the private sector do PhD/professional degree holders make significantly more than the government workers with comparable degrees.

Just because a few lower level judges have ruled against what is happening does NOT mean that laws are being broken. We are going to have to wait until all of the lawsuits are fully adjudicated to determine that, but I believe that most of those lawsuits will fail. The founders through our Constitution gave the president significant amounts of power and it is silly to think that some of these district court judges have more power than the president in how to run all of the departments and agencies under his (and eventually, someday her) power.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2024-04/59970-Compensation.pdf

My browser blocked whatever your link is supposed to be.

And to your TDS commentary - the Dems aren't in power, so WTH do they have to do with anything? And yes they all hate Trump. So do I. So do a lot of good, decent people who just got laid off with no warning and for no reason.

Tell me how this recently-hired and now fired Iowa park ranger is responsible for all this corruption and waste and illegal activity that Trump and his minions like to crow about? Answer: He isn't. Maybe his boss's boss's boss is. Go after him.

 

[CougPatrol]

I'm loving every bit of this DOGE rampage.

 

[Coug90]

Spot on buddy. Agree with your entire post.

Yup well said. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of thought going into this, just cutting for the sake of cutting. You can slowly trim fat and make a significant difference in budget deficits as pointed out with Clinton’s measured approach.

 

[CougPatrol]

Yup well said. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of thought going into this, just cutting for the sake of cutting. You can slowly trim fat and make a significant difference in budget deficits as pointed out with Clinton’s measured approach.

Or you can blow everything up and expose it all. You can force everyone to take notice of the massive corruption and wasteful spending and help establish a precedent where all Government spending is publicly visible.

 

[WillieThePimp]

You really don't know why a similar approach won't work now? I'll tell you why. Because the Dems are fatally infected with TDS and they totally, completely, 100% hate Donald Trump. They called him a Nazi, said he was worse than Hitler, and do not understand anything other than trying to destroy him. They truly are incapable of seeing the better good for the country in trying to work together. They think that if they can destroy Trump then they can return to power quicker. That will be very interesting to see how it plays out.

I know that it used to be that government workers got paid less in exchange for more job security than those in the private sector that were more exposed to cyclical economic ups and downs, but that has changed over the years. Perhaps that is due to the influence of government employee unions? Whatever the reason(s), federal worker's with bachelor's degrees and less education make more than private sector, master's degrees make slightly less in government, and only in the private sector do PhD/professional degree holders make significantly more than the government workers with comparable degrees.

Just because a few lower level judges have ruled against what is happening does NOT mean that laws are being broken. We are going to have to wait until all of the lawsuits are fully adjudicated to determine that, but I believe that most of those lawsuits will fail. The founders through our Constitution gave the president significant amounts of power and it is silly to think that some of these district court judges have more power than the president in how to run all of the departments and agencies under his (and eventually, someday her) power.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/2024-04/59970-Compensation.pdf

I don’t know any Dems that worship and swear fealty to a king like you deranged Redcoats do.

 

[WillieThePimp]

I'm loving every bit of this DOGE rampage.

Of course you do: Redcoats hate America. Duh.

 

[WillieThePimp]

Not sure how blanket cutting services without knowing the tentacles and not being more surgical just to cut enough so the billionaires can keep their tax cuts without raising the deficit is a good solution

Warren Buffet has a better solution... if congress can't keep the budget in line have it as a rule to run in congress you have a certain number .

This. And gut the Federal Government’s ability to hold the Oligarchs accountable while they fleece us all. Welcome to the 2nd Gilded Age brought to you by good ol’ American apathy and ignorance.

 

[Coug90]

Or you can blow everything up and expose it all. You can force everyone to take notice of the massive corruption and wasteful spending and help establish a precedent where all Government spending is publicly visible.

Eh…I’m not saying there’s not corruption and wasteful spending that needs to be dealt with, but the guy you’re counting on to do it right is the modern day king of corruption and wasteful spending. This ain’t gonna end well (for you and I).

 

[95coug]

Not sure if everyone (or anyone?) here actually knows or understands what this research grant overhead is, so a quick primer.

For most federal and state grants, institutions get to add in a cost recovery amount to cover "overhead". Central accounting, facilities, payroll, etc. that provide indirect benefits to the research. This used to be called ICR (Indirect Cost Recovery) but is now known as F&A (Facilities and Administrative). The % amount of these are negotiated with the relevant Fed Agency. I worked on several of these agreements during my career. Anyone know what WSU's primary federal F&A rate is? 53% (link below). So yeah cutting that to 15% will/would be devastating, as this money basically goes into the hopper and is allocated to administration, the colleges, etc.

https://wpcdn.web.wsu.edu/wp-fais/uploads/sites/3079/2019/08/WSU-FA-Rate-Agreement-2019-2023.pdf

Now having actually worked on these rate agreements, I always thought they were kind of high and contrived. Not illegal, not fraud, just the rules. And every University has their own rates. Some higher, some lower. Which seems kind of nuts to me. So the notion of saying "OK, one rate for everyone" appeals to me. but to go from 53% (for WSU) to 15% immediately? That's beyond chaos, it's calamity. And how do you do this for already-funded projects? Now add in grants that will just be totally unfunded, multiply the misery x2. And as I've stated, I'm all for looking at every Federal grant nationwide and determining which aren't as important as other things, like funding SS or replacing infrastructure or whatever. But again, you can't just go in and cancel existing grants and contracts. There is no fine print at the bottom that says "Oh and we can just terminate your 5-year grant with no notice or compensation". Explain that to WSU's Grizzly bears. Sorry, no more food for you. We'll just open the gate and let you fend for yourselves.

WSU's Regents just had a special all-day meeting (yesterday) on budget, with this being a major topic.

95, I know you know this stuff, feel free to correct anything above. I've been out of it for a while now.

Basically all of the operational functions are subsidized in part by research overhead. It includes rental of the lab space, cleaning and maintenance, purchasing, hiring, safety oversight, etc. Going beyond the facility, it pays for equipment to keep research modern and up to date. Cutting to 15% means no new equipment, less maintenance, and less overall support. Or, it means paying for those things from other sources…which don’t exist, especially in a state that’s about to trim up to 10% from the overall budget.
This is going to be particularly hard on WSU, as there are now reductions coming from everywhere.

 

[CougEd]

Can we use English, grammar and punctuation today?

And your opposition to anything Trump does is already assumed. No virtue signal needed.

Eh…I’m not saying there’s not corruption and wasteful spending that needs to be dealt with, but the guy you’re counting on to do it right is the modern day king of corruption and wasteful spending. This ain’t gonna end well (for you and I).

Bingo...sort of like making Al Capone head of the Liquor Control Board. Letting the fox in the hen house.

 

[CougEd]

Or you can blow everything up and expose it all. You can force everyone to take notice of the massive corruption and wasteful spending and help establish a precedent where all Government spending is publicly visible.

Now that is funny. So when the farmers in Iowa get their asses handed to them because of the aid packages with their crops are no longer available, and they suffer losses what do you think will happen? I will tell you. They will be give a "hand out"....I mean subsidy.

 

[Stretch 74]

My browser blocked whatever your link is supposed to be.

And to your TDS commentary - the Dems aren't in power, so WTH do they have to do with anything? And yes they all hate Trump. So do I. So do a lot of good, decent people who just got laid off with no warning and for no reason.

Tell me how this recently-hired and now fired Iowa park ranger is responsible for all this corruption and waste and illegal activity that Trump and his minions like to crow about? Answer: He isn't. Maybe his boss's boss's boss is. Go after him.

The link isn't "supposed to be" anything. What it IS, is the results of an internet search of "private vs public compensation differences". It was data from the CBO, or Congressional Budget Office. The data refutes the claim that government employees make less than private sector employees in return for more job security. A good digger like you should be able to find a way to that data if you are interested.

You really don't understand what the Dems have to do with anything? Again, it was a direct response to the previous post wondering why there couldn't be a bipartisan approach to cutting waste, fraud, and abuse. And I stand by the explanation I gave. Is there a single Democrat out there promoting getting their party on board with Trump and Musk as they try to save trillions of dollars for the US federal government and the tax payers that support it? I am not aware of any outside of possibly Fetterman (Sen, PA). Democrats are busy protesting, singing off key protest songs, waving signs, providing guidance to illegals on how to avoid the law, and filing dozens of lawsuits based on speculation the entire US system of government is soon going to come crashing down. Pathetic.

Now I have no idea if this effort is going to work, but what I do know is what has been happening in DC for too many years with deficit spending has this country heading for a catastrophe. Something needed to be done, and common sense tells us that it needed to be something dramatic. Just slowing down the rate of increased spending and calling it a spending cut just isn't going to cut it anymore. One thing I know for a fact is that two VERY smart guys (Elon Musk and Mr Wonderful, Kevin O'Leary) are pushing for what DOGE is doing, saying we need to do what they are doing and even more. One other thing I know for a fact is that both of those guys are a lot smarter than you, me, or anyone else hanging around this place. So I am going to wait around, hope for the best, and see what they come up with.

That said, will some eggs get broken in the making of the omelet? For sure. Will it be tough for those folks layed off/fired? Of course, and we feel sorry for them. But we MUST fix our government! There is no other option if we are to survive as the greatest country in the world. Remember what happened when Biden canceled the pipeline? People said those 60,000 workers could just learn to code! Yeah, right. No signs, songs, tears, or protests for those deplorables. Or the military folks given the boot for refusing the jab. Or all of the folks whose jobs or businesses went away as Dem governors buttoned down their states from Covid.

Calamity ahead or new Golden Day for America? We shall see.......

 

[CougEd]

My browser blocked whatever your link is supposed to be.

And to your TDS commentary - the Dems aren't in power, so WTH do they have to do with anything? And yes they all hate Trump. So do I. So do a lot of good, decent people who just got laid off with no warning and for no reason.

Tell me how this recently-hired and now fired Iowa park ranger is responsible for all this corruption and waste and illegal activity that Trump and his minions like to crow about? Answer: He isn't. Maybe his boss's boss's boss is. Go after him.

Oh....the people who voted for him will be the ones most likely impacted by his policies. Pullman and Whitman County my guess will be really hurting when the real knife starts slashing.

The largest employer in Pullman already has a budget crisis. The income (tuition/enrollment) is already down. Which means housing will start to soften. People will be laid off, meaning less money to be spent downtown. Less money means less revenue, less revenue means businesses fal. When businesses fail property taxes go unpaid or defaulted.

But all cuts are good cuts.

 

[CougEd]

The link isn't "supposed to be" anything. What it IS, is the results of an internet search of "private vs public compensation differences". It was data from the CBO, or Congressional Budget Office. The data refutes the claim that government employees make less than private sector employees in return for more job security. A good digger like you should be able to find a way to that data if you are interested.

You really don't understand what the Dems have to do with anything? Again, it was a direct response to the previous post wondering why there couldn't be a bipartisan approach to cutting waste, fraud, and abuse. And I stand by the explanation I gave. Is there a single Democrat out there promoting getting their party on board with Trump and Musk as they try to save trillions of dollars for the US federal government and the tax payers that support it? I am not aware of any outside of possibly Fetterman (Sen, PA). Democrats are busy protesting, singing off key protest songs, waving signs, providing guidance to illegals on how to avoid the law, and filing dozens of lawsuits based on speculation the entire US system of government is soon going to come crashing down. Pathetic.

Now I have no idea if this effort is going to work, but what I do know is what has been happening in DC for too many years with deficit spending has this country heading for a catastrophe. Something needed to be done, and common sense tells us that it needed to be something dramatic. Just slowing down the rate of increased spending and calling it a spending cut just isn't going to cut it anymore. One thing I know for a fact is that two VERY smart guys (Elon Musk and Mr Wonderful, Kevin O'Leary) are pushing for what DOGE is doing, saying we need to do what they are doing and even more. One other thing I know for a fact is that both of those guys are a lot smarter than you, me, or anyone else hanging around this place. So I am going to wait around, hope for the best, and see what they come up with.

That said, will some eggs get broken in the making of the omelet? For sure. Will it be tough for those folks layed off/fired? Of course, and we feel sorry for them. But we MUST fix our government! There is no other option if we are to survive as the greatest country in the world. Remember what happened when Biden canceled the pipeline? People said those 60,000 workers could just learn to code! Yeah, right. No signs, songs, tears, or protests for those deplorables. Or the military folks given the boot for refusing the jab. Or all of the folks whose jobs or businesses went away as Dem governors buttoned down their states from Covid.

Calamity ahead or new Golden Day for America? We shall see.......

What President added the most to the national debt in one term? And that is the guy we are looking to clean it up?

The man is "good with debt"....so good he filed bk 6 times and daddy bailed him out twice. That is like letting an alcoholic pilot an oil tanker....or like a former client of my who had numerous DUI's and drove a cement truck for a living.

I would rather put someone like Warren Buffet in charge of wasteful spending.

 

[Stretch 74]

Now that is funny. So when the farmers in Iowa get their asses handed to them because of the aid packages with their crops are no longer available, and they suffer losses what do you think will happen? I will tell you. They will be give a "hand out"....I mean subsidy.

It will be nice if we can get to a point where government handouts are not needed, but if we are giving some out I would much prefer to give them to farmers than Solyndra, electric school bus outfits, or solar mirror farms that all go bankrupt.

Ed, you wer conspicuous by your absence, I was hoping you were either just on vacation or taking a break from the board insanity and not having to deal with health or passing of your father. Hope things ARE well with you.

 

[CougEd]

Can we use English, grammar and punctuation today?

And your opposition to anything Trump does is already assumed. No virtue signal needed.

I am so sorry...was killing time on my phone without my readers while dealing with a hospice situation. But I will try and make sure to put on my readers next time to make sure you can understand what is being said.

Oh, I think Trump is a traitor. But he is the Prez...and I would love to have a president Chris Christie maybe, that has a balanced approach how to solve the budget issue.

 

[95coug]

The link isn't "supposed to be" anything. What it IS, is the results of an internet search of "private vs public compensation differences". It was data from the CBO, or Congressional Budget Office. The data refutes the claim that government employees make less than private sector employees in return for more job security. A good digger like you should be able to find a way to that data if you are interested.

You really don't understand what the Dems have to do with anything? Again, it was a direct response to the previous post wondering why there couldn't be a bipartisan approach to cutting waste, fraud, and abuse. And I stand by the explanation I gave. Is there a single Democrat out there promoting getting their party on board with Trump and Musk as they try to save trillions of dollars for the US federal government and the tax payers that support it? I am not aware of any outside of possibly Fetterman (Sen, PA). Democrats are busy protesting, singing off key protest songs, waving signs, providing guidance to illegals on how to avoid the law, and filing dozens of lawsuits based on speculation the entire US system of government is soon going to come crashing down. Pathetic.

Now I have no idea if this effort is going to work, but what I do know is what has been happening in DC for too many years with deficit spending has this country heading for a catastrophe. Something needed to be done, and common sense tells us that it needed to be something dramatic. Just slowing down the rate of increased spending and calling it a spending cut just isn't going to cut it anymore. One thing I know for a fact is that two VERY smart guys (Elon Musk and Mr Wonderful, Kevin O'Leary) are pushing for what DOGE is doing, saying we need to do what they are doing and even more. One other thing I know for a fact is that both of those guys are a lot smarter than you, me, or anyone else hanging around this place. So I am going to wait around, hope for the best, and see what they come up with.

That said, will some eggs get broken in the making of the omelet? For sure. Will it be tough for those folks layed off/fired? Of course, and we feel sorry for them. But we MUST fix our government! There is no other option if we are to survive as the greatest country in the world. Remember what happened when Biden canceled the pipeline? People said those 60,000 workers could just learn to code! Yeah, right. No signs, songs, tears, or protests for those deplorables. Or the military folks given the boot for refusing the jab. Or all of the folks whose jobs or businesses went away as Dem governors buttoned down their states from Covid.

Calamity ahead or new Golden Day for America? We shall see.......

Actually, it shows that federal government employees make less salary than private sector, but get better benefits. With positions that don’t require college degrees, the federal sector pays better and also gets better benefits.

There’s a high degree of variability in this based on what fields you work in. I could easily make more money - about 1/3 more - in the private sector. Been there, done that, and not interested in that amount of travel anymore. Having advanced degrees makes basically no difference for me in the public sector…and doesn’t make much difference in government either.

 

[Cougar_Guy]

The link isn't "supposed to be" anything. What it IS, is the results of an internet search of "private vs public compensation differences". It was data from the CBO, or Congressional Budget Office. The data refutes the claim that government employees make less than private sector employees in return for more job security. A good digger like you should be able to find a way to that data if you are interested.

You really don't understand what the Dems have to do with anything? Again, it was a direct response to the previous post wondering why there couldn't be a bipartisan approach to cutting waste, fraud, and abuse. And I stand by the explanation I gave. Is there a single Democrat out there promoting getting their party on board with Trump and Musk as they try to save trillions of dollars for the US federal government and the tax payers that support it? I am not aware of any outside of possibly Fetterman (Sen, PA). Democrats are busy protesting, singing off key protest songs, waving signs, providing guidance to illegals on how to avoid the law, and filing dozens of lawsuits based on speculation the entire US system of government is soon going to come crashing down. Pathetic.

Now I have no idea if this effort is going to work, but what I do know is what has been happening in DC for too many years with deficit spending has this country heading for a catastrophe. Something needed to be done, and common sense tells us that it needed to be something dramatic. Just slowing down the rate of increased spending and calling it a spending cut just isn't going to cut it anymore. One thing I know for a fact is that two VERY smart guys (Elon Musk and Mr Wonderful, Kevin O'Leary) are pushing for what DOGE is doing, saying we need to do what they are doing and even more. One other thing I know for a fact is that both of those guys are a lot smarter than you, me, or anyone else hanging around this place. So I am going to wait around, hope for the best, and see what they come up with.

That said, will some eggs get broken in the making of the omelet? For sure. Will it be tough for those folks layed off/fired? Of course, and we feel sorry for them. But we MUST fix our government! There is no other option if we are to survive as the greatest country in the world. Remember what happened when Biden canceled the pipeline? People said those 60,000 workers could just learn to code! Yeah, right. No signs, songs, tears, or protests for those deplorables. Or the military folks given the boot for refusing the jab. Or all of the folks whose jobs or businesses went away as Dem governors buttoned down their states from Covid.

Calamity ahead or new Golden Day for America? We shall see.......

I didn't feel like I was making a wild claim, I feel like it's pretty widely known that you can make more money in the private sector than you can in a like government position. However, from the report that you offered up:

"Overall, the federal government would have spent about 10 percent more on wages if it had adjusted the pay of its employees to match the wages of their private-sector counterparts."

Here's a more recent report, based upon Bureau of Labor Statistics data that estimates the gap to be more like 25%. https://www.govexec.com/pay-benefit...arter-less-their-private-sector-peers/401121/

And my point about budget cuts having been done in a bipartisan fashion in the past was just to illustrate that collaboration has been successful in the past. Be that as it may, the current administration doesn't even require it due to having a majority in both chambers and holding the executive office.

Lastly, in the first Trump presidency, lawsuits against his administration were ~80% successful. https://policyintegrity.org/trump-court-roundup Your statement "...but I believe that most of those lawsuits will fail." doesn't appear to be rooted in historical precedent. And for these TROs and injunctions to have been granted doesn't bode well for the current Trump administration because that means a judge has considered the factors and believes the plaintiff has (1) a high likelihood of success on the merits; (2) will suffer irreparable harm; (3) that less harm will result to the defendant if the TRO is issued than to the plaintiffs if the TRO is not issued; and (4) that the public interest, if any, weighs in favor of plaintiff.

 

[Coug90]

I didn't feel like I was making a wild claim, I feel like it's pretty widely known that you can make more money in the private sector than you can in a like government position. However, from the report that you offered up:

"Overall, the federal government would have spent about 10 percent more on wages if it had adjusted the pay of its employees to match the wages of their private-sector counterparts."

Here's a more recent report, based upon Bureau of Labor Statistics data that estimates the gap to be more like 25%. https://www.govexec.com/pay-benefit...arter-less-their-private-sector-peers/401121/

And my point about budget cuts having been done in a bipartisan fashion in the past was just to illustrate that collaboration has been successful in the past. Be that as it may, the current administration doesn't even require it due to having a majority in both chambers and holding the executive office.

Lastly, in the first Trump presidency, lawsuits against his administration were ~80% successful. https://policyintegrity.org/trump-court-roundup Your statement "...but I believe that most of those lawsuits will fail." doesn't appear to be rooted in historical precedent. And for these TROs and injunctions to have been granted doesn't bode well for the current Trump administration because that means a judge has considered the factors and believes the plaintiff has (1) a high likelihood of success on the merits; (2) will suffer irreparable harm; (3) that less harm will result to the defendant if the TRO is issued than to the plaintiffs if the TRO is not issued; and (4) that the public interest, if any, weighs in favor of plaintiff.

Since you are relatively fresh meat on this board I’ll save you some trouble. There’s a half dozen or so here who reason and fact don’t resonate with. Trump can do no wrong, anything negative about him, his family, and administration is “fake news”, and ultimately Trump is the chosen one who’s here to fix everything democrats destroyed and welcomes all MAGAs into his open arms where he’s devoting himself to bringing them much fortune and opportunity.

While everything you shared is reasonable and rooted in fact, these folks don’t look at the world through the same lens. With that in mind, save your keystrokes on trying to reason with them. That’s said I should probably follow my own advice…

 

[CougPatrol]

Listening to people on here talk politics. You can't make it up. I dare you to try.

 

[Meister_Rebel]

OK, new ground here. Having been in the public sector for much of my career, and lamenting largesse, waste and laziness the entire time, I am all for reducing waste and unnecessary governmental spending. But this is no way to do it. Trump, Musk and their minions are just randomly ruining the lives of thousands of people with no notice and no real justification because, well, they can. These probationary employees? Well we can fire you without notice, we don't give a F whether you are good or your job really is justifiable, you are gone. This Iowa Park Ranger (article below) is a good example. Married with a son and a baby on the way, he is fired with no notice. Just because he was recently hired, so they could get rid of him. Billionaires ruining people's lives just to feed their own egos. No criteria, no thorough agency review, just "we can fire you without notice so we are".

MSN

Now - question for you legal types. I have been directly involved in situations where probationary employees had to be let go. And the golden rule was that we didn't have to give a reason, so don't. In fact, we didn't want to give a reason, as the employee could use that to claim wrongful dismissal. So what about this Park Ranger whose dismissal notice said that he "failed to demonstrate fitness or qualifications for continued employment" even though his previous performance review was "exceeded expectations"? How's that dismissal reason going to look as he tries to get another job? Has he not been damaged, and thus will have grounds to sue? I bet the attorneys, like vultures, are already circling all the federal employees who got similar career-damaging notices. Which is apparently thousands. And in this case they should be circling.

But hey this is what the American people wanted. But is it?

I read this article tonight on some impacts of those workers fired from the National Park Service. https://apnews.com/article/trump-na...-grand-teton-baedee0a748a6374eafb6f95aac5dadc

Not mentioned in that article are the National Parks in the Rocky Mountains in Colorado. I live in Colorado. The Denver Post had an article that with the layoffs the impacts for the Rocky Mountain National Park will be closed camping sites, closed visitor centers, and closed restroom facilities. The employees that supported those were let go. So, plan your summer camping vacations carefully if visiting National Parks.