You've promised we'll be in control of a Pac-12 North championship at kickoff on Friday November 27th. Th season is here. Why not let it play out... then gloat?
Show me where I promised that.
You've promised we'll be in control of a Pac-12 North championship at kickoff on Friday November 27th. Th season is here. Why not let it play out... then gloat?
You didn't make the claim a thousand times Leach will outperform Walden in his 4th year???
Yes, you should read threads better.
Yes, Thong continually vaults Leach and what he's accomplished so far, above every WSU coach, including Mike Price.
Yes, you do indeed care.
That's the bullsh!t part of this whole circus that we've had going on this message board for years. Whenever anyone else struggles, it's because of their coach. For us, it's always the players. Maybe the recruiting rankings were all wrong and their players sucked balls?
There's no definitive answer, but there are plenty of teams in plenty of leagues that struggle, but as soon as they get the right coach, they start to improve. One thing that does muddy the water in our situation is the fact that Wulff was making the team better when he was fired and finished at 4-8. Not good enough to warrant keeping him, but we were improving. Most teams that fire their coaches do it as the program spirals downward in the toilet. With Wulff, we'd already gotten to the bottom of the toilet and the bowl was refilling. That makes it more difficult to evaluate Leach.
Many coaches regress in their third or fourth year depending on the status of the recruiting and current players. It's unusual for them to drop from six wins to three wins. It's normally a one or two win regression. All BS aside, if Leach can't reach 6-6 with this schedule, you have to wonder if we'll ever win a conference championship with him. That's why Wulff was fired in 2011. If he couldn't get to a bowl game in year four of his tenure, why the hell should we have kept him?
No, you're too stupid because you are comparing apples to oranges.
They didn't offer 6 win teams bowl bids during the previous coaching regimes.
Second, bowl quality.
The New Mexico Bowl does not equal the Rose Bowl, Holiday Bowl, or Sun Bowl
Your never ending spin to make Mike Leach=Mike Price is rather entertaining, though.
Sponge, have you actually LOOKED at Mike Prices record to see how many "6 win, crappy, doesn't-matter-anyways, give-away, orange slices and rainbows, bowls he would have gone to? Might want to look into that one before you spout off too much. Mike Price was so up-and-down, extreme.No, you're too stupid because you are comparing apples to oranges.
They didn't offer 6 win teams bowl bids during the previous coaching regimes.
Second, bowl quality.
The New Mexico Bowl does not equal the Rose Bowl, Holiday Bowl, or Sun Bowl
Your never ending spin to make Mike Leach=Mike Price is rather entertaining, though.
No. It's true. All of the information supports that it is true. It's not just the recruiting rankings, but also the play on the field that sunk the program. Wulff hosed us. The ceiling for Wulff was 4 wins. The floor with him was 1 win.
Leach the ceiling so far is 6 wins and the floor 3 wins. Is that better? Yes it's better.
Now just like building ANYTHING it happens in steps and stages and sometimes there are holes where setbacks happen (see 3 wins last year), Price stepped back for 3 wins...and why did that happen? People graduated and young inexperienced players took over. What happened in the secondary last year... Experienced players graduated and inexperienced players took over.
It's not hard to comprehend...unless you don't have the brain capacity to understand.
Wulff never beat a single Pac 12 team with a winning record. Not one.
Leach beat USC, UW, Arizona, and Utah all with winning records.
We were behind everyone. By a lot, and everyone else upgraded as did we, but at the same time that terrible starting point hurt us and you can't deny it. I mean you can try, but you are just being stupid refusing to believe the truth.
We have to shed those 4 years of poor recruiting + bring in talent and get them experience...while competing against everyone who already has an upper hand. That's insane to think that it will all of a sudden get better.
I posted earlier Mike Riley's last 5 seasons at Oregon State...and Nebraska hired him. You want to know why? Because it's hard to do anything at Oregon State...just like it's hard for us to do anything.
It took Price 9 years to get us to the rose bowl, and he only went to bowls 5 times. ever. He had more losing seasons than winning ones, and ALL of a sudden Leach has to do what Price never did out of a hole Price never faced? Get real.
When you accept how bad things were and realize where we were at then everything makes sense. It completely makes sense why we went 3 wins then 6 back 3 probably back to 6. We are trying to climb out of a gigantic hole, and in order to do that it takes time, and there will be a setback as we sort through all the roster holes left behind while trying to bring in new people.
You don't want to accept that fine, but you just come off as someone that is unrealistically impatient when it's absolutely clear that we are an improved program that is building as we go.
It took Mike Price 9 years to get to a Rose Bowl. Leach has been here for 3.
Also, Mike Price never coached the team to a Holiday Bowl.
I'm just going to put my .02 worth in on this small portion of the debate. THIS very sentence is the odd dichotomy of your statement. In the same thread, you say we need to be better, yet in this statement you prop up a mediocre QB. OK. Tuel was good enough to get onto a roster. Is THAT our goal for our players? You bring up Tuel, but Buc is a shining example of what we should be propping up… It just seems like, in one breath some on this board talk about expectations and we should be at 6 wins or 7 wins or 8 wins… and at the same time, defend mediocre players… Just doesn't make sense.Tuel is not the greatest QB ever but the man made it on an NFL roster and actually played in games. You don't get to do that if you suck.
I'm just going to put my .02 worth in on this small portion of the debate. THIS very sentence is the odd dichotomy of your statement. In the same thread, you say we need to be better, yet in this statement you prop up a mediocre QB. OK. Tuel was good enough to get onto a roster. Is THAT our goal for our players? You bring up Tuel, but Buc is a shining example of what we should be propping up… It just seems like, in one breath some on this board talk about expectations and we should be at 6 wins or 7 wins or 8 wins… and at the same time, defend mediocre players… Just doesn't make sense.
And before you try to "turn the tables", I get it that some (me included) are OK with 3-9 from last year then trash Tuel (I don't think anyone has done that but going with what some extremists might say)… The difference, IMHO, is I'm not really "OK" with 3-9. I just don't rant negative on it. I see improvement in so many statistics, I think we are truly on the cusp. If we redu 3-9? Might hear me grumble.
So that's the odd, me-bristle-up, thing for me. Some will talk about CML should be here or there in the W column… yet prop up the previous regimes players like they were golden, or something. Call a spade a spade. They were mediocre. Good people?! Maybe… Don't know them personally. This isn't personal. Their performance on the field is all I'm looking at.
Your post is the exact thing that I'm talking about. Jeff Tuel got paid to play professional football. He was on an NFL roster and played in actual, live NFL games. Is that one of the primary goals of any college athlete? Hell yes it is. There are dozens of college QB's that will graduate this year that wished that they were good enough to just make an NFL roster. I don't think Tuel was particularly noteworthy as QB's go but he was not a mediocre QB. He is currently on the roster of the Jacksonville Jaguars. Do you think that they've kept him on the roster for two months because they think he sucks?
This obsession with tearing down our players and belittling their abilities baffles me. We've had plenty of mediocre players and Wulff certainly didn't do enough on the recruiting side, but when it comes down to it, most of our players are far better than most of our fans credit them. They were usually the best players on their teams and most often, amongst the best in the leagues that they played in. I'm not in any way trying to sell up Wulff as a recruiter, but you guys spend a lot of time showing your ignorance when you bash on some of our players. Tuel being the best example. I'm glad to know that our message board pros know more than the actual professional teams do.
One of the negatives of Leach's coaching style is that when things go south, you can tell that he isn't a rah, rah guy who is going to rally the team with inspirational speeches. His style relies more on grinding through and working your way up in the offseason. In the long run, it will probably pay dividends and that is what you see happening.
We need Leach to be the guy who inspires our kids to beat the higher ranked kids at USC instead of whining about how we just aren't capable because of the recruiting stars next to the names.
See, perception. I'm not "tearing him down". I'm not "belittling his abilities". I view his performance as mediocre. Not to MY ability, as he would kick my ass. But comparing him to the rest of the PAC12 during his time at WSU. Again, that dichotomy I was talking about. Some talk about the W column… Well, I'm looking at the W column while Tuel was QB… So I'm comparing his abilities during his time in the NFL. So in the NFL, he's the back up of the backup. With the Bills he played 63 plays. He wasn't good enough to stay with the Bills… What is your definition of mediocre?Your post is the exact thing that I'm talking about. Jeff Tuel got paid to play professional football. He was on an NFL roster and played in actual, live NFL games. Is that one of the primary goals of any college athlete? Hell yes it is. There are dozens of college QB's that will graduate this year that wished that they were good enough to just make an NFL roster. I don't think Tuel was particularly noteworthy as QB's go but he was not a mediocre QB. He is currently on the roster of the Jacksonville Jaguars. Do you think that they've kept him on the roster for two months because they think he sucks?
This obsession with tearing down our players and belittling their abilities baffles me. We've had plenty of mediocre players and Wulff certainly didn't do enough on the recruiting side, but when it comes down to it, most of our players are far better than most of our fans credit them. They were usually the best players on their teams and most often, amongst the best in the leagues that they played in. I'm not in any way trying to sell up Wulff as a recruiter, but you guys spend a lot of time showing your ignorance when you bash on some of our players. Tuel being the best example. I'm glad to know that our message board pros know more than the actual professional teams do.
Which is why I said "previous coaching regimes".It took Mike Price 9 years to get to a Rose Bowl. Leach has been here for 3.
Also, Mike Price never coached the team to a Holiday Bowl.
Yes, his first yr he won 6 games.Sponge, have you actually LOOKED at Mike Prices record to see how many "6 win, crappy, doesn't-matter-anyways, give-away, orange slices and rainbows, bowls he would have gone to? Might want to look into that one before you spout off too much. Mike Price was so up-and-down, extreme.
See, perception. I'm not "tearing him down". I'm not "belittling his abilities". I view his performance as mediocre. Not to MY ability, as he would kick my ass. But comparing him to the rest of the PAC12 during his time at WSU. Again, that dichotomy I was talking about. Some talk about the W column… Well, I'm looking at the W column while Tuel was QB… So I'm comparing his abilities during his time in the NFL. So in the NFL, he's the back up of the backup. With the Bills he played 63 plays. He wasn't good enough to stay with the Bills… What is your definition of mediocre?
Again, just the phrase "tearing him down" indicates some emotional issue. This is stats. This is the very thing you and others talk about when it comes to the W column. Yet when evaluating the players unemotionally (as if they are related to you and me calling Tuel mediocre is hurting your, or his, feelings) you can't do it. I have to reiterate. This isn't a personal attack, Flat. This is stats. This is performance. Show me ANY stat that shows Tuel being anything other than mediocre at any level over the past decade… and as you show CML is just doing "OK" because of the W column, I ask you to use the W column when evaluating Tuel.
You are all over the place, here. I'm not a scout in any way. I look at stats. And I'm explaining why your initial post seems so weird to me and why it creates another heated debate. You're emotional with people saying Tuel was mediocre but when CML is called mediocre, or worse, you agree. You say you look at the W column… well that's all I'm doing with Tuel… What's the difference again?Is Tuel on an NFL roster two years after he graduated?
Do you think Jacksonville has him on the roster because he is a mediocre QB?
The rest of the world looks at Jeff Tuel and says, "Eh, let's give the kid a chance". You look at it him (along with too many on this board) and say, "eh, he got recruited by Wulff.....he sucks". Again, I'm glad that you are confident in your own scouting ability and that you know more than the people running an NFL team. I don't think Tuel is great. Frankly, he probably is a mediocre QB by NFL measures. If that's good enough to get on a roster though, it's pretty damned good in the big picture. Tuel made 59 pass attempts with the Bills. Gesser was cut by the Tennessee Titans without throwing a single pass in a game. Does that mean that Gesser was a terrible QB? I would personally beg to differ.
Is Tuel on an NFL roster two years after he graduated?
Do you think Jacksonville has him on the roster because he is a mediocre QB?
The rest of the world looks at Jeff Tuel and says, "Eh, let's give the kid a chance". You look at it him (along with too many on this board) and say, "eh, he got recruited by Wulff.....he sucks". Again, I'm glad that you are confident in your own scouting ability and that you know more than the people running an NFL team. I don't think Tuel is great. Frankly, he probably is a mediocre QB by NFL measures. If that's good enough to get on a roster though, it's pretty damned good in the big picture. Tuel made 59 pass attempts with the Bills. Gesser was cut by the Tennessee Titans without throwing a single pass in a game. Does that mean that Gesser was a terrible QB? I would personally beg to differ.
Possible, he's a "talent" but his performance on the field and his lack of PT would counter that. And I would agree, I would love to have seen him with a good WSU team… Who wouldn't?Tuel. is obviously an NFL talent with great character. It's too bad we didn't get to see him play healthy for a full season on a good WSU team.
And that was all. So he could have gone to a crappy bowl his first year. That was it. So Prices first 3 years, in today's world of crappy bowls, how many would he have gone to, and how many has CML gone to?Yes, his first yr he won 6 games.
You are all over the place, here. I'm not a scout in any way. I look at stats. And I'm explaining why your initial post seems so weird to me and why it creates another heated debate. You're emotional with people saying Tuel was mediocre but when CML is called mediocre, or worse, you agree. You say you look at the W column… well that's all I'm doing with Tuel… What's the difference again?
No one, and I mean no one, has said Tuel sucks… I've spent several several minutes looking back on anything related to Tuel. No one is saying that. But when I say, "He was mediocre", you hear, "Tuel sucked upon sucked, man!!!! He couldn't throw a ball worth a crap! WSU would have been better without the dirtbag! Man, did I mention he SUCKED!!!???" I didn't say, nor has anyone said, he sucked. He wasn't great, as you say. Some argue he wasn't even mediocre. That's debatable. The numbers could bear that out, depending. But your emotion is weird. Why aren't you this emotional when people say CML sucks, hence my only point here.
But back to your post… you first imply he isn't mediocre. Then below you say, "I don't think Tuel is great. Frankly, he probably is a mediocre QB by NFL measures". uhm. whut? That's all I was saying, Flat. You're being emotional, as if he is your son and your being protective. If you ARE his father, please realize I'm not downing your kid. If you're not his father, Relax Frankie. You just said, and agreed, with me… why are you arguing with me on it?
Then you bring Gesser into this, somehow… AGAIN, I look at stats… How many wins did Gesser have at WSU? What was his completion rate? Then lets compare that to Tuel… Horrible, horrible, horrible, analogy. Again, stats, Flat. Wanna compare that in the NFL? OK. Gesser couldn't hack it in the NFL… So? There are many, many reasons. He was mediocre in the NFL… and many would say that is generous… why is saying this so "hurtful" to you or the program? I just don't get what you're saying…
My only point to your post was… When you are being this protective towards Tuel… Why aren't you the same way to CML?
K. Flat. Said it every post I've made and you misread again, saying this about what i post, when I don't. I never said Tuel sucked. Your inability to read and know exactly what it means, is baffling. So I'll bold it for you. I never said Tuel sucked. Please stop saying I have said such. And as I said above, I've yet to find a post where anyone has said such. Admitted didn't do an extensive search. But I question if anyone said anything remotely close to that, as you continually say I said it… YET I DIDN'T… You continue to "interpret" instead of just reading.The problem is that while Tuel is perhaps a mediocre NFL QB, he was a good college QB by all accounts (outside of our fanbase). As someone else said, part of the issue is that Tuel was hyped by some to the point where he could never live up to it. My comments go far beyond Tuel of course. Taliulu is mentioned favorably in an article and someone bashes on him. John Fullington has struggled to stay on an NFL roster but was signed to a practice squad. He was recently waived due to an injury but had been picked up by the Cardinals. People used to love bashing on him (again overhyped by Wulff though). Louis Bland was an absolute animal as a young player but washed out due to "extracurricular activities". Just the other day, someone made a comment about how worthless he was. He doesn't deserve a lot of love because of his actions, but at the same time, the dude was a serious ball player with the kind of motor that we need on game day.
As for the Gesser comment, you were the one that implied that getting cut with a limited number of snaps meant that Tuel sucked. I gave you an example of someone who was beloved as a QB who "failed" in comparison to Tuel. Again, at the end of the day, I find it laughable that our fans insist that our players suck so bad that not even Lombardi himself could win with them. It's no wonder that we don't always see the effort that we'd like.
The people most fond of Tuel's abilities also said him being stupid got him injured, so it's not really cut and dried.K. Flat. Said it every post I've made and you misread again, saying this about what i post, when I don't. I never said Tuel sucked. Your inability to read and know exactly what it means, is baffling. So I'll bold it for you. I never said Tuel sucked. Please stop saying I have said such. And as I said above, I've yet to find a post where anyone has said such. Admitted didn't do an extensive search. But I question if anyone said anything remotely close to that, as you continually say I said it… YET I DIDN'T… You continue to "interpret" instead of just reading.
And I think I clarified about Gesser. His stats at WSU were incredible. He was a GREAT QB at WSU. That did not translate to the NFL. He was, at best, a mediocre QB in the NFL… so?
This is turning into a dumb, dumb back-and-forth… you aren't seeing my point but you'll continue to say, Coug95man2 said this, when I didn't… Don't worry. You made your point. You're right, I'm wrong…Continue to "laugh" about it, instead of making yourself clear and concise…
And in year 4, he won 9 games out of 12.And that was all. So he could have gone to a crappy bowl his first year. That was it. So Prices first 3 years, in today's world of crappy bowls, how many would he have gone to, and how many has CML gone to?
Swing and a miss.The people most fond of Tuel's abilities also said him being stupid got him injured, so it's not really cut and dried.
No, not a 9 win team… But I'm not willing to crystal ball anything. Let alone anything CML is involved in. So you can base your opinions on stuff that hasn't even happened yet. I won't. And even if you compare Apples to Apples, CML and Price, BASED ON REALITY not future what-if's, are very similar. I think that was Tron's point. You brought up the orange slices bowl games. I pointed out, as you did as well, that only included 1 potential 6 game bowl his entire career. So that actually brought Price to the same level as CML, regarding bowl appearances in the first 3 years. Price is up 1 win difference in those 3 years. If that is your big difference between our "golden age" and a dumpster fire, YOU are smoking rocks.And in year 4, he won 9 games out of 12.
The point was Tron keeps comparing apples to oranges and keeps bringing up the miracle
season of 2013.
If anybody thinks this is a 9 win team, they are smoking rocks.
Nope.No, not a 9 win team… But I'm not willing to crystal ball anything. Let alone anything CML is involved in. So you can base your opinions on stuff that hasn't even happened yet. I won't. And even if you compare Apples to Apples, CML and Price, BASED ON REALITY not future what-if's, are very similar. I think that was Tron's point. You brought up the orange slices bowl games. I pointed out, as you did as well, that only included 1 potential 6 game bowl his entire career. So that actually brought Price to the same level as CML, regarding bowl appearances in the first 3 years. Price is up 1 win difference in those 3 years. If that is your big difference between our "golden age" and a dumpster fire, YOU are smoking rocks.
Sure.Swing and a miss.
You can be a good qb and make bad decisions you know.
Why are you so skeptical over a probable 6-6?Nope.
There is a big difference between 9 wins and the probable 6-6 we will have this yr.
And so far, Price is up 1 win with 4 less games.
I am on record for 5 wins...but giving Leach the benefit of the doubt with 6 wins.Why are you so skeptical over a probable 6-6?
Edit to earlier post. Leach had 25 games through 3 yrs.
Price had 20.
So basically Leach has had almost a half of a season more with 1 less win through 3 yrs.