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For the first time in awhile

4 year average, dead last in the conference in recruiting.

Some were expecting better. Some apparently, weren't. Either way, we're all now hoping Leach is right, analysts are wrong and that Leach proves once and for all he's a better WSU coach than Jim Walden was... who had WSU playing for a conference Championship and Rose Bowl berth, at kickoff of the Apple Cup in year 4.

And as we all know, WSU couldn't find ANY coach with ANY head coaching experience back then who wanted to coach at WSU. Walden was an internal hire without a day of HC experience at any level.
 
4 year average, dead last in the conference in recruiting.

Some were expecting better. Some apparently, weren't. Either way, we're all now hoping Leach is right, analysts are wrong and that Leach proves once and for all he's a better WSU coach than Jim Walden was... who had WSU playing for a conference Championship and Rose Bowl berth, at kickoff of the Apple Cup in year 4.

And as we all know, WSU couldn't find ANY coach with ANY head coaching experience back then who wanted to coach at WSU. Walden was an internal hire without a day of HC experience at any level.

You are really scraping the bottom of the barrel for ammo.
 
4 year average, dead last in the conference in recruiting.

Some were expecting better. Some apparently, weren't. Either way, we're all now hoping Leach is right, analysts are wrong and that Leach proves once and for all he's a better WSU coach than Jim Walden was... who had WSU playing for a conference Championship and Rose Bowl berth, at kickoff of the Apple Cup in year 4.

And as we all know, WSU couldn't find ANY coach with ANY head coaching experience back then who wanted to coach at WSU. Walden was an internal hire without a day of HC experience at any level.

I see 8th place. http://247sports.com/Season/2015-Football/CompositeTeamRankings?Conference=Pac-12
 
You see dead people too. Nice moving of the goalposts... as always.

Have your mom show you how to use the dropdown menu at the top of this page.
 
4 year average, dead last in the conference in recruiting.

The issue that I have with your statement is that WSU is never, ever, ever going to lead the conference in recruiting. In fact, if we ever finish in the Top 3 in recruiting, it will be a miracle. USC, UCLA and Oregon are likely to dominate recruiting for any forseeable future. UW has Seattle as a selling point. ASU has boobs. Stanford and Cal have academic cred with the nerd athletes and the Bay area has lots of athletes that are happy to be close to home. In reality, if WSU can get to the point where we are around #8 in the conference in recruiting, Leach will be doing good.

So, by the logic that our recruiting was last for a while, so we have to be last in wins, we should never expect to be better than 8th place in the conference in the regular season standings. A lot of schools think that they have excellent head coaches who can raise the level of their players, but apparently in year four at WSU with Leach, that isn't meaningful. Since that's the case, and our success relies only upon the talent we have, one has to wonder if we should fire Leach and get a cheaper coach with a lot of west coast recruiting ties. Why pay $2.25 million per year to finish 8th?
 
Disagree... which is why I used facts. Perhaps fro's mom can show you how to use the dropdown menu at the top of this page when you visit on your next playdate.

Well, WSU's average ranking would be 11th, which is not what you shrieked.
 
The issue that I have with your statement is that WSU is never, ever, ever going to lead the conference in recruiting. In fact, if we ever finish in the Top 3 in recruiting, it will be a miracle. USC, UCLA and Oregon are likely to dominate recruiting for any forseeable future. UW has Seattle as a selling point. ASU has boobs. Stanford and Cal have academic cred with the nerd athletes and the Bay area has lots of athletes that are happy to be close to home. In reality, if WSU can get to the point where we are around #8 in the conference in recruiting, Leach will be doing good.

So, by the logic that our recruiting was last for a while, so we have to be last in wins, we should never expect to be better than 8th place in the conference in the regular season standings. A lot of schools think that they have excellent head coaches who can raise the level of their players, but apparently in year four at WSU with Leach, that isn't meaningful. Since that's the case, and our success relies only upon the talent we have, one has to wonder if we should fire Leach and get a cheaper coach with a lot of west coast recruiting ties. Why pay $2.25 million per year to finish 8th?
Again, back to the pay thing. It seems some don't get it. While pay might go up or down a bit, depending on experience and all, WSU will never be going "cheaper" again. It's kinda like everything else. "Once you give them the power, they'll never give it back". Once we've upped the pay scale, we are never going to go much lower than what we are now. So we could hire Baldwin tomorrow and he'll get 2 mill.

People have to get over this pay thing… take a zero out, in your minds eye or something but this just isn't going to change… for any coach we hire.
 
So now that the girls are done fighting, and before this topic got high jacked, lets go back to the original " for the first time in a while..." So here are my positives for this year, and something that will lead us to 6 wins, 7 if they beat Rutgers.

1.There is more depth at every position than we have seen in about 10 years
2.Special teams have to be better this year, (can they be worse than last year? not possible), Kicking, I hope it's better, coverage, it has to be better. Returns, anything beyond the 25 on kickoffs is a plus.
3.Team speed, this is one thing Price recruited well and something that Leach has done a good job of, recruiting speed. I think you'll notice the biggest difference on defense, I think they will cover sideline to sideline better, and hopefully prevent the big plays that they got burned on so many times last year. The defense played well in most games, it was the 3 -5 plays per game that killed them, eliminate 3-4 of those big plays and you win at least 2 more games.
4. Running the football, I do believe you will see a better running team this year for 3 primary reasons, first the offensive line is experienced and deep, they should do a better job of controlling the line, secondly we have 3 sold running backs, and then there is Williams the freshman that is turning heads. Do they play him? or do they redshirt him and have him heal a little more. He says he is 100%, and they have held him out of contact drills, most people say 12-18 months for complete recovery from an ACL. And last is the QB, I believe Faulk and/ or Bender will check to running plays more often. Conner always felt he could be you with his arm, and they were probably at least a half dozen times per game where checking to the run would have been a better option, but Conner liked to throw the ball, and a few times even in these case he was successful.
 
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Again, back to the pay thing. It seems some don't get it. While pay might go up or down a bit, depending on experience and all, WSU will never be going "cheaper" again. It's kinda like everything else. "Once you give them the power, they'll never give it back". Once we've upped the pay scale, we are never going to go much lower than what we are now. So we could hire Baldwin tomorrow and he'll get 2 mill.

People have to get over this pay thing… take a zero out, in your minds eye or something but this just isn't going to change… for any coach we hire.

To be truthful, I'm just messing with you on the pay part, because we are obviously spending money with the plans to be competitive and we are never going to pay a coach under $1 million per year. At the same time, I put it in there with a reason. If all we are ever going to hear from people is that we shouldn't expect to be even mediocre (6-6 is mediocre) right now because of past recruiting, how can you honestly believe that Mike Leach is going to ever win the conference? We are never going to have the talent of the top of the league. We never have, we never will. We will always be an injury or two away from being a mediocre (or worse) team.

The entire "our recruiting was the worst of any BCS program ever" argument is nothing more than a smoke screen to cover for the fact that our players have not played to even their limited potential. At this point, the past doesn't matter in my book. I don't care about the 3-9 last year. I care about what happens this year. We don't have the talent to win the league and nobody is suggesting that. I do believe that if the mutts could finish 7-6 in 2010, we should be able to do the same this year. We have the schedule and the coach (I hope).
 
Yeah… I don't know if this "Leech" thing has me included but I want to be clear… I ain't in whatever group your describing. If you think I am, I suggest reading my post about it being about statistics and not "cult of personality". If this is about others, carry on. I don't know anyone that is like that, but carry on anyways.

A touch paranoid?
 
To be truthful, I'm just messing with you on the pay part, because we are obviously spending money with the plans to be competitive and we are never going to pay a coach under $1 million per year. At the same time, I put it in there with a reason. If all we are ever going to hear from people is that we shouldn't expect to be even mediocre (6-6 is mediocre) right now because of past recruiting, how can you honestly believe that Mike Leach is going to ever win the conference? We are never going to have the talent of the top of the league. We never have, we never will. We will always be an injury or two away from being a mediocre (or worse) team.

The entire "our recruiting was the worst of any BCS program ever" argument is nothing more than a smoke screen to cover for the fact that our players have not played to even their limited potential. At this point, the past doesn't matter in my book. I don't care about the 3-9 last year. I care about what happens this year. We don't have the talent to win the league and nobody is suggesting that. I do believe that if the mutts could finish 7-6 in 2010, we should be able to do the same this year. We have the schedule and the coach (I hope).
I don't know how much that should change our standing… I don't even know how to answer that. Pay for a coach is going to change our geography? I mean there's a boat load of things that the coaches pay isn't going to change, yet drastically affect our recruiting… Which thus affects our W/L… so I don't know. You rarely post something without your own opinion, Flat. What do you think? Do you think a coaches pay will automatically, autonomously change the players willing to go to Pullman?
 
A touch paranoid?
HA! Your funny… Me and my guns?! :) Naw. Just wasn't sure. You were painting with such broad strokes and I tend to agree with those that seem to fit your description. I just don't know anyone on this board that believes in the "cult of personality" thing you describe. Do I, and others support? Yep, but if anything, it seems like some did at CML's hire and then the first year, they realized that was a bad idea and have swung to the complete opposite extreme. But that's literally 1-3 people on this board, IMHO.
 
4 year average, dead last in the conference in recruiting.

Some were expecting better. Some apparently, weren't. Either way, we're all now hoping Leach is right, analysts are wrong and that Leach proves once and for all he's a better WSU coach than Jim Walden was... who had WSU playing for a conference Championship and Rose Bowl berth, at kickoff of the Apple Cup in year 4.

And as we all know, WSU couldn't find ANY coach with ANY head coaching experience back then who wanted to coach at WSU. Walden was an internal hire without a day of HC experience at any level.

Your cookies are burning, Mrs. Wulff.
 
since you are so down on Leach, just what coach should we or could we hav e gotten that would recruit at a level meeting your expectations? which is obviously "recruiting at a level never seen before"

I just want to win. I think Leach is a great Xs and Os coach. But I am disappointed with his recruiting. In 35 years of watching the Cougs, I've have seen dud and stud talent. We don't have stud talent. Excuse me If I'm not in "I'll delude myself," because I have a "man crush" on the coach, camp.

We had the worst pass defense in the NCAA. Our special teams were dreadful, the worst I can remember. 7th in the conference in scoring offense, running the "air raid," directed by a truly great "O" mind. Hate to tell you, that suggests woeful recruiting.
 
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I just want to win. I think Leach is a great Xs and Os coach. But I am disappointed with his recruiting. In 35 years of watching the Cougs, I've have seen dud and stud talent. We don't have stud talent. Excuse me If I'm not in "I'll delude myself," because I have a "man crush" on the coach, camp.

We had the worst pass defense in the NCAA. Our special teams were dreadful, the worst I can remember. 7th in the conference in scoring offense, running the "air raid," directed by a truly great "O" mind. Hate to tell you, that suggests woeful recruiting.

Curious - what were your expectations of recruiting in the modern Pac 12? WSU has never won with young players, why would that suddenly change now?
 
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I just want to win. I think Leach is a great Xs and Os coach. But I am disappointed with his recruiting. In 35 years of watching the Cougs, I've have seen dud and stud talent. We don't have stud talent. Excuse me If I'm not in "I'll delude myself," because I have a "man crush" on the coach, camp.

We had the worst pass defense in the NCAA. Our special teams were dreadful, the worst I can remember. 7th in the conference in scoring offense, running the "air raid," directed by a truly great "O" mind. Hate to tell you, that suggests woeful recruiting.

I think Leach is taking WSU's recruiting in a whole new direction. He's committed to putting numbers into the OL. Something that has never happened. It will take a few years for it to set, but once it does I think the WSU OL will flourish like we've never seen before.

I think he'll bring in consistent talent at the QB position. Will every kid shake out? No. Will every kid finish at WSU? No. However, Leach will get a pretty good player every year. Other WSU coaches can't say the same.

I think he'll always be in the mix for quality WR talent. Kids that catch the ball know his brand of football.

The issue for WSU in recruiting is retention. They bring in 22 high school kids, 3 years later they're down to 15. There will always be normal attrition. However, you simply can't lose kids to drinking/drugging/thugging/flunking out of school. That hurts.

I'd call it a rebuild but I don't believe WSU has ever been built for long term success. When you have 2, maybe 3 stretches in 100 years of having 3 winnings seasons in a row.... Your program has never been built.

I don't know that I have any benchmarks for Leach. I think this is the most competitive the conference has ever been and every team has money. Totally new landscape to the PAC 12 now than in the past. There are games WSU should be competitive in and some they probably won't be. How that shakes out for wins??? No idea.
 
Curious - what were your expectations of recruiting in the modern Pac 12? WSU has never won with young players, why would that suddenly change now?

The Wulffians/Paultergeists again conveniently abandon their Iron Laws .
 
It is humorous to think of Boulder as being remote and geographically isolated. I realize that is in Colorado but just check out the size of Denver. Boulder is essentially a suburb of Denver for all intents and purposes.
 
I don't know how much that should change our standing… I don't even know how to answer that. Pay for a coach is going to change our geography? I mean there's a boat load of things that the coaches pay isn't going to change, yet drastically affect our recruiting… Which thus affects our W/L… so I don't know. You rarely post something without your own opinion, Flat. What do you think? Do you think a coaches pay will automatically, autonomously change the players willing to go to Pullman?

I don't even really care about how much we are paying Leach as long as he wins. There is obviously no direct correlation between pay and success. The problem that I have with the logic being applied on this board is what I've said repeatedly. I'm being told that we finished 3-9 last year and shouldn't "expect" a bowl game this year because of our recruiting from the Wulff era and the normal difficulty of a coach getting started at a new school. I should "expect" us to be at the bottom of the league because of that. As I previously stated, and someone can feel free to prove me wrong, it is going to be difficult to imagine WSU getting into the top of the Pac-12 recruiting rankings on a regular basis because of the built in advantages at places like USC, UCLA, ASU, UW, Stanford and Cal. Frankly, Colorado was a recruiting juggernaut back in the day when they had coaches that could coach.

If we are destined to be at the bottom of the league right now, how will we suddenly be able to overcome that talent disparity and compete for conference titles? And that's where my smart aleck pay comment comes into play. If we are going to concede that we are never going to win the conference, why try to compete with the upper tier of the conference in pay? Or should we expect a guy who is supposed to be a great coach to elevate his players?
 
It is humorous to think of Boulder as being remote and geographically isolated. I realize that is in Colorado but just check out the size of Denver. Boulder is essentially a suburb of Denver for all intents and purposes.

Boulder is not all that remote or isolated, and it's going to be a tough place to recruit against when they get new facilities and if/when they start winning a bit. It's a beautiful place and a pretty fun college town with Denver pretty close. Boulder itself has about 100,000 people in it, too.
 
I don't even really care about how much we are paying Leach as long as he wins. There is obviously no direct correlation between pay and success. The problem that I have with the logic being applied on this board is what I've said repeatedly. I'm being told that we finished 3-9 last year and shouldn't "expect" a bowl game this year because of our recruiting from the Wulff era and the normal difficulty of a coach getting started at a new school. I should "expect" us to be at the bottom of the league because of that. As I previously stated, and someone can feel free to prove me wrong, it is going to be difficult to imagine WSU getting into the top of the Pac-12 recruiting rankings on a regular basis because of the built in advantages at places like USC, UCLA, ASU, UW, Stanford and Cal. Frankly, Colorado was a recruiting juggernaut back in the day when they had coaches that could coach.

If we are destined to be at the bottom of the league right now, how will we suddenly be able to overcome that talent disparity and compete for conference titles? And that's where my smart aleck pay comment comes into play. If we are going to concede that we are never going to win the conference, why try to compete with the upper tier of the conference in pay? Or should we expect a guy who is supposed to be a great coach to elevate his players?

There is a difference between what the expectations should be for programs at different stages.

For example, an Ohio State, Michigan, USC, Texas, Florida, Alabama is to win all the games, and win now, and compete for a title.
These are big teams with big budgets, the talent, the resources etc. They have EVERYTHING. So the expectation should be to win.

For teams like UCLA, UW, Arizona, Arizona State etc. their expectation is to make the step up to the elite classification. They don't have as much as the elites, but if they can recruit better, playe better they can make that step up.

For teams like Colorado, WSU, Illinois, Minnesota etc. our expectation is build a foundation that we can compete with the other teams 1st. We have to get to the UCLA, Arizona, ASU stage first. Since we don't have the resources we need scheme and the ability to get players that are decent and put them in and help them develop into good players. So recruiting wise he need to win a few battles here, and find ways to get niche kids that we can develop. Leach does that offensively with his scheme. He's able to get smart capable receivers and qbs, Mastro (I still think) has some future plans for the RBs and getting a Pac-12 sized o-line with depth was the goal there. We are pretty much there. On defense our niche to recruit is Salavae grabbing poly kids, and now adding Manning/Grinch who are young and energetic guys also helps us get better competitive players.

We're adding pieces to our engine/race car as we go and getting better and better in the parts (players) department. That's our expectation. The roster right now is tremendously better than what it was 4 years ago. Getting those parts is just 1 step and now they need experience to excel. The more experience and training they get. The more polished and competitive we get as a team. We're at the cusp of taking that step up to where Arizona/ASU/UW etc. were, and from that point it's the same thing. Only it's easier to recruit. It's easier to get better players.

When WRs/ Dbs/ OL/ Qbs/ DLs / Lbs can see they can win at WSU and get into the pros the bigger recruits start coming in. They see it not as a place where you are just happy to play in the Pac-12 like we were, but a place you can accomplish big things. Most recruits today don't know about our rose bowl teams and stuff.

Our expectation as a fan base should be clear building steps on the roster and competitive side where we are beating teams we know have more resources and talent. We've done that occasionally already and our next steps are to do that more frequently. Half the time is a good next step, then 3/4th the time. all the time.
 
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Congrats lecturing an entire fan base we're doing it wrong.

If you want success and want it realized, you have to know what the stages of success look like, and focus on accomplishing those. It helps as a fan to have that mindset so you don't go crazy manic wondering why things aren't happening the way they should, or getting depressed, or over hyped for let down. I don't suffer from that because I'm practical, and realistic. I love my team, but I also can see the progress, and as long as we are making the progress. I'm happy. I hate losing, but that will change. Change is inevitable. Progress is not. And we should always be about progress for the program.
 
Like winning 2 games in year 3?

I'm all for witnessing a winning season proving we are making progress that everybody can see in the win column... In year 4
 
Disagree... which is why I used facts. Perhaps fro's mom can show you how to use the dropdown menu at the top of this page when you visit on your next playdate.

Hey, my mom died before you were born. Look on the ranking and Rivals has us at 11th.
 
hopefully this is just another one of your unfunny jokes... and you really don't suck this badly at math.

Naked trolling...
il_570xN.521720629_fjwj.jpg
 
Like winning 2 games in year 3?

I'm all for witnessing a winning season proving we are making progress that everybody can see in the win column... In year 4

I don't mind a step back win year as long as we are still building a foundation and taking the necessary steps to improve. Identifying the problem areas and taking steps to address them was what we did last year, and we will be a better team going forward for it.
 
I don't mind a step back win year as long as we are still building a foundation and taking the necessary steps to improve. Identifying the problem areas and taking steps to address them was what we did last year, and we will be a better team going forward for it.
we are improving which is why I predict we double our D-1 win total this season. We're doing it with the #12 talent in the Pac-12, according to rivals, on average over the past 4 years... Which, If I am correct in my guess, we will be able to credit Leach for his coaching and development of the talent we have. 12th place talent +10th place finish = coaching advantage, yes?
 
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Thanks for the memories, CP.

Mike Price seemed to be on a perpetual hot seat. A lot of folks didn't want him hired in the first place, withdrew support and cancelled season tickets when he was.

A lot of folks wanted him out after the 1996 season due to the terrible QB play and seemingly, lack of talent overall at the QB position. Leaf's AC effort bought him breathing room.

People forget, Mike Price recruited TWICE... into the final year of his contract. The guy simply had little support from Smith and NONE from Rawlins.

Argue all you want about the demise of Cougar football being Doba or Wulff's fault but the single person most responsible was V.Lane Rawlins. Between his complete override of the admissions/eligibility process relative to NCAA and conference standards, failing to lock up Price and staff with competitive contracts and diverting capital projects dollars to his golf course, V. Lane screwed over WSU athletics like no other.
 
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I just want to win. I think Leach is a great Xs and Os coach. But I am disappointed with his recruiting. In 35 years of watching the Cougs, I've have seen dud and stud talent. We don't have stud talent. Excuse me If I'm not in "I'll delude myself," because I have a "man crush" on the coach, camp.

We had the worst pass defense in the NCAA. Our special teams were dreadful, the worst I can remember. 7th in the conference in scoring offense, running the "air raid," directed by a truly great "O" mind. Hate to tell you, that suggests woeful recruiting.
the woeful recruiting happened prior to the arrival of leach, that is a fact that cannot be denied but is by the 600K club
 
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