Good article on college grade inflation

[Stretch 74]

I know we have had some discussion a while back on grade inflation relative to high school, this one focuses on college. I think it really is a strong indictment on the US education system.

I am curious to hear what some of you folks that are still working have to say about this. Have you noticed a deterioration in the skills of the younger kids coming into the work force? Especially in areas like engineering. My brother in law was an engineer and I know that he had talked about this even 10-15 years back. I had noticed it also when I was working, in particular in the ability to write and communicate effectively. What has been the observations and experiences from some of the rest of you?

College Grade Inflation Undermines Workforce Competitiveness

townhall.com

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

I know we have had some discussion a while back on grade inflation relative to high school, this one focuses on college. I think it really is a strong indictment on the US education system.

I am curious to hear what some of you folks that are still working have to say about this. Have you noticed a deterioration in the skills of the younger kids coming into the work force? Especially in areas like engineering. My brother in law was an engineer and I know that he had talked about this even 10-15 years back. I had noticed it also when I was working, in particular in the ability to write and communicate effectively. What has been the observations and experiences from some of the rest of you?

College Grade Inflation Undermines Workforce Competitiveness

townhall.com

Is grade inflation the same as expectation degradation? Have just put a kid through k-12 I can attest that being stupid is the norm and will "earn" a passing, if not better, grade.

 

[95coug]

I know we have had some discussion a while back on grade inflation relative to high school, this one focuses on college. I think it really is a strong indictment on the US education system.

I am curious to hear what some of you folks that are still working have to say about this. Have you noticed a deterioration in the skills of the younger kids coming into the work force? Especially in areas like engineering. My brother in law was an engineer and I know that he had talked about this even 10-15 years back. I had noticed it also when I was working, in particular in the ability to write and communicate effectively. What has been the observations and experiences from some of the rest of you?

College Grade Inflation Undermines Workforce Competitiveness

townhall.com

I can tell you that at all education levels, there’s no longer incentive or encouragement to have high achieving student. The goal is toward uniformity.

And, in the interest of teaching the “correct” process, there’s no teaching problem solving. But that’s been happening long enough that most teachers don’t know how to do it either, and don’t understand when you ask them about it.

 

[Cougsocal]

Interesting article, but it ignores the reality that class rank is the be all and end all on your resume. That because grade inflation has been around for decades and what employers really want to know is how you compare to your contemporaries. It is all about being in the top 10%, whether your GPA is 3.00 or 3.95.

What has changed is how competitive it is to get into a university these day. When I was attending WSU all you basically needed to do was to fog a mirror to get in. That isn't the case any more. The average admit at WSU has a 3.46 GPA, and a 1130 SAT. It has gotten insane in California. UCLA and Berkeley have an 8% acceptance rate.

A 4.00 these days won't get you into any of the UCs except, potentially, UC Merced and Riverside, the systems' bottom tier. This year, my son had a 1360 SAT and a lowly 4.13 GPA and was rejected by UCSD, SDSU (not kidding) and Cal Poly SLO on an engineering intended major application. None of these schools required the SAT, so he was basically applying on 4.13 GPA, being a two sport varsity athlete (swimming and water polo) and having 1s on the AP Calc, Physics and Comp Sci. Are kids brighter these days, of course not. So there is certainly a level of both grade and qualification inflation at the high school level.

That said, on the other side of the coin, our visit to WSU was disappointing regarding the engineering program. Gone are the days that you needed at least a B in Math 171 and 172, as well as Physics 201 to be admitted in to the program. Now, you are admitted to the program if you list engineering as your intended major, and you will receive an engineering degree if you pass the required classes (even with some Ds) at some point if you have a 2.00 GPA. Our meet and greet with the student engineers confirmed it. Everyone I spoke to admitted struggling to pass these former "weeder" classes. I was left disappointed and praying that my son would not chose WSU, fearing that employers now would tend to look down their noses at an WSU engineering degree.

So my take on it is this. If you are recruiting engineers from top tier schools, they are as strong academically as they have ever been. But schools like WSU now do the bare minimum to filter out kids who really aren't suit to the discipline.

 

[COUGinNCW]

Where’s your son going Cougsocal?

 

[95coug]

Interesting article, but it ignores the reality that class rank is the be all and end all on your resume. That because grade inflation has been around for decades and what employers really want to know is how you compare to your contemporaries. It is all about being in the top 10%, whether your GPA is 3.00 or 3.95.

What has changed is how competitive it is to get into a university these day. When I was attending WSU all you basically needed to do was to fog a mirror to get in. That isn't the case any more. The average admit at WSU has a 3.46 GPA, and a 1130 SAT. It has gotten insane in California. UCLA and Berkeley have an 8% acceptance rate.

A 4.00 these days won't get you into any of the UCs except, potentially, UC Merced and Riverside, the systems' bottom tier. This year, my son had a 1360 SAT and a lowly 4.13 GPA and was rejected by UCSD, SDSU (not kidding) and Cal Poly SLO on an engineering intended major application. None of these schools required the SAT, so he was basically applying on 4.13 GPA, being a two sport varsity athlete (swimming and water polo) and having 1s on the AP Calc, Physics and Comp Sci. Are kids brighter these days, of course not. So there is certainly a level of both grade and qualification inflation at the high school level.

That said, on the other side of the coin, our visit to WSU was disappointing regarding the engineering program. Gone are the days that you needed at least a B in Math 171 and 172, as well as Physics 201 to be admitted in to the program. Now, you are admitted to the program if you list engineering as your intended major, and you will receive an engineering degree if you pass the required classes (even with some Ds) at some point if you have a 2.00 GPA. Our meet and greet with the student engineers confirmed it. Everyone I spoke to admitted struggling to pass these former "weeder" classes. I was left disappointed and praying that my son would not chose WSU, fearing that employers now would tend to look down their noses at an WSU engineering degree.

So my take on it is this. If you are recruiting engineers from top tier schools, they are as strong academically as they have ever been. But schools like WSU now do the bare minimum to filter out kids who really aren't suit to the discipline.

A lot of schools now are sort of forced to relax criteria because they need tuition-paying bodies. Letting kids fail out means losing money…so it’s better to keep them in class and graduate them than it is to weed them out

 

[Cougsocal]

Where’s your son going Cougsocal?

Cal Poly Pomona, As a "poly" it has very big engineering school @6500 undergrads, the largest school on campus, a quarter of all undergrads. Like WSU they accept you into the engineering program right out of the box, unlike WSU the engineering school and the specific departments involved decide who they admit. Because of the population of the state, the school of engineering receives far more applicants than they have spots, and thus they rejects more applicates than they accept. I don't know if the facility is any better than WSU, I doubt it, but the typical enrollee has a 1 or 2 on the AP Calc and physics exams, as the engineering curriculums assume they have already successfully taken a year of calculus, starting with calculus 3, and requiring only the physics for science majors lab.

 

[Cougsocal]

A lot of schools now are sort of forced to relax criteria because they need tuition-paying bodies. Letting kids fail out means losing money…so it’s better to keep them in class and graduate them than it is to weed them out

I definitely got that vibe. WSU has been aggressively trying to counter declining enrollment. For example, you now get $1000 dollars off tuition if you simply attend an orientation, which we did, and my son, wife and I received a steady stream of emails and texts from his SoCal admissions handler throughout the process. Conversely, Cal Poly Pomona did jack all, offered no incentives, and did not even send an acceptance letter/packet.

 

[random soul]

I've become pretty skeptical about the entire proposition of grades, but the alternative is far more expensive to administer. I'm a big believer in performance assessment, as in, you get assigned a project/presentation/paper, some kind of performance, that will require the practice of the desired skills in order to get through it successfully. The simple standard example I got in a writing assessment class at WSU was the list of ten steps to make a cup of coffee from one of those old filter machines, but you could use anything. If you did 9 things correct, that's 90% under the traditional system, but you don't have a cup of coffee. To the extent that you could try to implement that philosophy, it would require the assessments to be performed by people expert enough in the subject matter to judge the quality of the performance, and it would obviously take a lot more time than filling in bubbles in multiple choice exams. Does this mean bringing in business and education people to help participate at the k12 level? I would suspect so. And it would probably mean making 'internships' a bigger part of professional education, as in actual course credit for them, for people studying to enter a profession. Teachers and doctors already do this kind of thing, but in a lot of other areas they're kind of optional. For a lot of fields, school systems are good at making professors out of the best students, but not necessarily other things, and the world has too many professors (and lawyers). Exclusivity is less important to me than core competence, and when Ivy League kids are struggling to read full books, maybe we're teaching the wrong things and using the wrong mechanisms to sort.

 

[Suudy]

Does this mean bringing in business and education people to help participate at the k12 level?

Good luck. A few true stories from 3 different states.

The brother of my wife's best friend had a highly successful career as a store manager, district manager, and regional manager for a large retailer. He was one of the most successful managers in the PacNW, having become a store manager at just 26 years old, and a regional manager at 40. He got sick of the long hours and stepped down, now working as a consultant. During the ramp up time of his consultancy business, he volunteered with the DECA club at his niece's high school, leading them to the national competition every year. He then approached the principal offering as a volunteer to teach a class on sales, merchandising, and leadership. He was told he could not teach a credit class as he did not have a teaching certificate, and that his participation in DECA was sufficient to teach this material.

One of my best friends retired after a 28 year career in the Air Force, retiring as a colonel. When he retired, he got involved at his kid's high school, both as a coach and substitute teacher. For a long time, he has been heavily involved in 4H's Know Your Government. He offered to create a teach course material on leadership, time management, and government. Despite this, the principal refused, saying he lacked the qualifications to be a full time teacher and teach for credit material.

In my own experience, I have been volunteering to teach at my kid's junior high school. My kids attend a private, Catholic school. The principal was eager to have someone join and help teach material. We don't have a Catholic high school, so I reached out to the principal at our local high school offering to teach the same material I've been teaching at the junior high for the last 7 years, and was told I could not teach a for credit class without being a certified teacher.

Related to the above, one more story. A guy I went to undergrad with happened to move to the same area I live. When catching up with him, I asked what brought him back. He had went on to get a PhD in computer science. He had started his own company and recently sold it, and decided to enter semi-retirement. He moved to town to teach at the local community college (turns out his wife is from the area). Before I had talked with him, he reached out the same principal at the high school offering to teach computer classes. He got he same response that he wasn't qualified to teach for credit classes without being certified. We compared notes when I met with him, and he noted, "It is easier to get a job as a professor than as a public school teacher."

People with master's degrees and PhD's being declined opportunities to teach classes in material in which they are experts. While at the same time they have barely knowledgeable teachers covering material. Case in point, my daughter's Algebra II teacher is out the rest of the year for maternity leave. The substitute teacher was a history major and has admitted to struggling to recall this material. The only reason she is doing well in the class is because I am an engineer and had years of math that I still rely upon for my job.

If you really think getting "business and education people to help participate at the k12 level" then we need to open doors for people who offer to volunteer their time to do so. Turning away highly knowledgeable people who are experts in their fields because they aren't "qualified"? It's mind boggling. And I guess they do so because of either some law, some clause in some contract, or just plain ole disdain for those who aren't teachers.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

I've become pretty skeptical about the entire proposition of grades, but the alternative is far more expensive to administer. I'm a big believer in performance assessment, as in, you get assigned a project/presentation/paper, some kind of performance, that will require the practice of the desired skills in order to get through it successfully. The simple standard example I got in a writing assessment class at WSU was the list of ten steps to make a cup of coffee from one of those old filter machines, but you could use anything. If you did 9 things correct, that's 90% under the traditional system, but you don't have a cup of coffee. To the extent that you could try to implement that philosophy, it would require the assessments to be performed by people expert enough in the subject matter to judge the quality of the performance, and it would obviously take a lot more time than filling in bubbles in multiple choice exams. Does this mean bringing in business and education people to help participate at the k12 level? I would suspect so. And it would probably mean making 'internships' a bigger part of professional education, as in actual course credit for them, for people studying to enter a profession. Teachers and doctors already do this kind of thing, but in a lot of other areas they're kind of optional. For a lot of fields, school systems are good at making professors out of the best students, but not necessarily other things, and the world has too many professors (and lawyers). Exclusivity is less important to me than core competence, and when Ivy League kids are struggling to read full books, maybe we're teaching the wrong things and using the wrong mechanisms to sort.

It is my understanding that the state of WA does this in the form of senior projects.

Except there is no hard deadline (there is but its ignored), its not reviewed by a SME, not required to be based around desired field of study or vocation.

So yeah, other than that exactly what you're talking about.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

Good luck. A few true stories from 3 different states.

The brother of my wife's best friend had a highly successful career as a store manager, district manager, and regional manager for a large retailer. He was one of the most successful managers in the PacNW, having become a store manager at just 26 years old, and a regional manager at 40. He got sick of the long hours and stepped down, now working as a consultant. During the ramp up time of his consultancy business, he volunteered with the DECA club at his niece's high school, leading them to the national competition every year. He then approached the principal offering as a volunteer to teach a class on sales, merchandising, and leadership. He was told he could not teach a credit class as he did not have a teaching certificate, and that his participation in DECA was sufficient to teach this material.

One of my best friends retired after a 28 year career in the Air Force, retiring as a colonel. When he retired, he got involved at his kid's high school, both as a coach and substitute teacher. For a long time, he has been heavily involved in 4H's Know Your Government. He offered to create a teach course material on leadership, time management, and government. Despite this, the principal refused, saying he lacked the qualifications to be a full time teacher and teach for credit material.

In my own experience, I have been volunteering to teach at my kid's junior high school. My kids attend a private, Catholic school. The principal was eager to have someone join and help teach material. We don't have a Catholic high school, so I reached out to the principal at our local high school offering to teach the same material I've been teaching at the junior high for the last 7 years, and was told I could not teach a for credit class without being a certified teacher.

Related to the above, one more story. A guy I went to undergrad with happened to move to the same area I live. When catching up with him, I asked what brought him back. He had went on to get a PhD in computer science. He had started his own company and recently sold it, and decided to enter semi-retirement. He moved to town to teach at the local community college (turns out his wife is from the area). Before I had talked with him, he reached out the same principal at the high school offering to teach computer classes. He got he same response that he wasn't qualified to teach for credit classes without being certified. We compared notes when I met with him, and he noted, "It is easier to get a job as a professor than as a public school teacher."

People with master's degrees and PhD's being declined opportunities to teach classes in material in which they are experts. While at the same time they have barely knowledgeable teachers covering material. Case in point, my daughter's Algebra II teacher is out the rest of the year for maternity leave. The substitute teacher was a history major and has admitted to struggling to recall this material. The only reason she is doing well in the class is because I am an engineer and had years of math that I still rely upon for my job.

If you really think getting "business and education people to help participate at the k12 level" then we need to open doors for people who offer to volunteer their time to do so. Turning away highly knowledgeable people who are experts in their fields because they aren't "qualified"? It's mind boggling. And I guess they do so because of either some law, some clause in some contract, or just plain ole disdain for those who aren't teachers.

two words here for you:

Teacher's Union

Bill Gates couldn't teach computer science nor business at your kids' school because he isn't certificated. And the dolts in leadership are the same sheep who've been peter principaled up through the ranks and must maintain the status quo to keep the bigger dolts in Olympia/ King County happy.

I say this while having several friends and family who are educators or paraeducators who I admire and love. The education system is leading the charge when it comes to being self-serving while also ignorant of the needs and wants of the parents and students.

 

[Stretch 74]

two words here for you:

Teacher's Union

Bill Gates couldn't teach computer science nor business at your kids' school because he isn't certificated. And the dolts in leadership are the same sheep who've been peter principaled up through the ranks and must maintain the status quo to keep the bigger dolts in Olympia/ King County happy.

I say this while having several friends and family who are educators or paraeducators who I admire and love. The education system is leading the charge when it comes to being self-serving while also ignorant of the needs and wants of the parents and students.

Your two words are exactly the same one's I thought of when reading Suudy's post. Remember everyone, the teacher's unions care little for the children or their actual education, their only concern is for the pay, benefits, and job security of their members. If their focus runs counter to the greatest benefit for the children........screw the children.

 

[cr8zyncalif]

Getting back to Stretch's original post, with a nod to SoCal's thoughts. I'm a large, design/build mechanical contractor (primarily HVAC). I have 10 partners. 5 are from Pomona, one from UW, one from UCLA, one from USC, one from Fresno St, one with no degree, and me from WSU. We (Like most CA mechanical engineers) used to be mostly Poly SLO grads, since they were literally the only HVAC engineering program from the '40's through about the '80's west of the Mississippi. The SLO folks, not to put too fine a point on it, started to feel privileged, particularly in the past 2 decades. The demand for graduates in my area exceeded the supply, and they had no issues getting a job at the upper end of that year's engineering scale. I hire for attitude (and when relevant, some gritty work experience) over GPA or school. We typically have about 3 interns per year. That is worth the effort; you get a chance to see them and they get to see you, and between the two you figure out if there is a match.

I'm selling my stock & giving up account responsibilities and being president later this year. The plan is to stick around for teaching, coaching & recruiting, each of which I enjoy...and frankly, my partners are crummy recruiters. They are learning, but have a long way to go. IMHO, kids today are the same as they have always been. When I took honors western Civ in 1978, the prof pointed out a quote attributed to Socrates. I just Googled it:

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”

Sounds like little has changed. The primary change that I see is that some kids grow up in a more privileged environment/time frame (how many kids actually work in high school any more?) vs. some are less privileged (my parents were depression era folks and it was easy to tell that impacted some of their views). I enjoy talking to kids about putting together resumes. I emphasize that if they have worked at anything during HS/College, it needs to be on the resume. I particularly like the dull, boring, monotonous jobs...fast food, for example. Kids who do that sort of work usually either come from a less privileged background, really want to work, or both. I'm always impressed at the number & type of side gigs that college kids put together now. One I hired had put together his own website to sell obsolete car parts, but I'd guess that about 1/4 of those I interview have something going along that line. I like athletes who had to work hard...water polo and wrestling were the two hardest athletic things I ever tried, and the sheer dedication required to be a competitive swimmer is huge. On the other hand, I never found HS baseball to require an equivalent level of effort, as an example (unless your coach was a conditioning freak).

Finally, I've found that you almost never have to question the work ethic of an immigrant. Draw what ever conclusion you wish from that.

Technically, today's grads generally know what they have been taught. Some of that is surprising; it is possible, for instance, to get an electrical engineering degree today without ever having taken a power class. All low voltage/digital circuits. But what ever they have been taught, they can generally do. At least as well as I could do what I was taught...but attitude is the big variable. Get the right attitude and you should be fine.

 

[Observer11]

Kids now are educated to test, not educated to think

 

[Stretch 74]

Getting back to Stretch's original post, with a nod to SoCal's thoughts. I'm a large, design/build mechanical contractor (primarily HVAC). I have 10 partners. 5 are from Pomona, one from UW, one from UCLA, one from USC, one from Fresno St, one with no degree, and me from WSU. We (Like most CA mechanical engineers) used to be mostly Poly SLO grads, since they were literally the only HVAC engineering program from the '40's through about the '80's west of the Mississippi. The SLO folks, not to put too fine a point on it, started to feel privileged, particularly in the past 2 decades. The demand for graduates in my area exceeded the supply, and they had no issues getting a job at the upper end of that year's engineering scale. I hire for attitude (and when relevant, some gritty work experience) over GPA or school. We typically have about 3 interns per year. That is worth the effort; you get a chance to see them and they get to see you, and between the two you figure out if there is a match.

I'm selling my stock & giving up account responsibilities and being president later this year. The plan is to stick around for teaching, coaching & recruiting, each of which I enjoy...and frankly, my partners are crummy recruiters. They are learning, but have a long way to go. IMHO, kids today are the same as they have always been. When I took honors western Civ in 1978, the prof pointed out a quote attributed to Socrates. I just Googled it:

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”

Sounds like little has changed. The primary change that I see is that some kids grow up in a more privileged environment/time frame (how many kids actually work in high school any more?) vs. some are less privileged (my parents were depression era folks and it was easy to tell that impacted some of their views). I enjoy talking to kids about putting together resumes. I emphasize that if they have worked at anything during HS/College, it needs to be on the resume. I particularly like the dull, boring, monotonous jobs...fast food, for example. Kids who do that sort of work usually either come from a less privileged background, really want to work, or both. I'm always impressed at the number & type of side gigs that college kids put together now. One I hired had put together his own website to sell obsolete car parts, but I'd guess that about 1/4 of those I interview have something going along that line. I like athletes who had to work hard...water polo and wrestling were the two hardest athletic things I ever tried, and the sheer dedication required to be a competitive swimmer is huge. On the other hand, I never found HS baseball to require an equivalent level of effort, as an example (unless your coach was a conditioning freak).

Finally, I've found that you almost never have to question the work ethic of an immigrant. Draw what ever conclusion you wish from that.

Technically, today's grads generally know what they have been taught. Some of that is surprising; it is possible, for instance, to get an electrical engineering degree today without ever having taken a power class. All low voltage/digital circuits. But what ever they have been taught, they can generally do. At least as well as I could do what I was taught...but attitude is the big variable. Get the right attitude and you should be fine.

Excellent post, I appreciate your thoughts and views on the subject. Good thoughts on growing up in the depression. My parents were born in 1930 and 1931, and you could absolutely tell that their attitudes were formed from growing up in tough times. Most of my friends (and I) had these work ethic values instilled in us and grew up working in the fields, working in high school and college, did side jobs and worked all the overtime we could get after joining the adult work force full time. Those attitude just don't seem to have been instilled in a lot of the generations under us. Unfortunately.

I know I have said this before, but the best engineer I ever worked with was a WSU grad. I think one of the factors that really made him stand out was that after graduation he went into the field and got his journeyman electrician's certification, then into administration for electrical contractor before coming to Boeing to do design work. Also had his PE.

On the other hand, I once submitted a Technical Scope of Work to do an installation for a 500 ton hydraulic press that needed power, compressed air, and a significant foundation. All of the details from the manufacturer were included with my SOW, yet the structural engineer came over and asked me if the machine actually weighed 500 tons! Hole crap. The guy was a uw grad. That figures.