Has WSU's start validated Coach Leach?
- Thread starter MikeFingLeach
- Start date
The reason that Snyder is in the conversation (and only in the conversation) is that his winning percentage at KSU is 50% higher than that of any coach at the school since the 1930's. He's had KSU #1 in the country twice. At one point, KSU went 72-15 and finished ranked in the top ten 5 out of 6 years while coaching in a power conference. KSU has never been in the Top 25 in their entire history except when he was coach. The coaches you listed are all in the conversation for greatest all time without a doubt as well but none of them had to deal with the situation that Snyder had. In 100 years of football, KSU had been to one bowl game. They've been to 16 bowl games with Snyder as head coach. As much as we enjoyed Mike Price as a coach, imagine if he had won 116 games instead of 83 games and finished in the Top 10 six times instead of three times. As coug fans, I would hope that you would appreciate the accomplishments of a man who won at a place where nobody expected him to win more than guys who were just one of the guys who was successful at a place that was used to winning.
Guys like Saban, Meyer, Carroll, Bryant, Hayes, Miles, Switzer are all terrific coaches and all are certainly worthy of being considered better than Snyder, but the colleges that they coached at are places where championships were happening before and/or after they were coach there. Florida, USC, Alabama, Ohio State, Oklahoma and LSU are places where a competent coach is always in the conversation for a national championship. If you say that Snyder is inferior to them based on winning percentage or national titles, you are saying that any coach at a non-elite football school has no chance of being considered very good.
Paterno, Bowden and Harbaugh are a different breed because they legitimately built up the programs that they had success with. FSU and Stanford were bad programs and they raised them to levels that hadn't ever been seen before. You could argue the same for Carroll at USC because the Trojans had been in a funk by their standards and they haven't been the same since he left. Still, USC won four national championships with McKay as coach and by that measurement, he isn't even the best at his own school. Joe Pa raised Penn State to a level higher than any other coach in their history before and after.
All of the coaches mentioned above are worthy of being the greatest coach ever and I won't expend any effort in saying that Snyder is "better" than them. Again, I'd like to think that Coug fans wouldn't look at national titles and winning percentage as the only ways to measure a coach. If so, man, we've had a lot of really crappy coaches.
Again, you are picking a fight that just isn't there. I'm not hoping for a five game losing streak and I don't think it's going to happen. I've been around long enough to know that nothing is guaranteed no matter who our coach is. If you actually read what I posted, you'd see that I said that 7 wins would be great this year because it takes time to build a program up. Instead, you just pull crap out of the year and try to create a controversy because that's what you do.
Context is very important and cherry picking a portion of a single sentence from a previous post in a different thread without that context doesn't mean anything other than you spend too much time thinking about me. There are times that it's obvious that your biggest satisfaction in life is to pick fights and disagree with people.
Sorry I didn't put your losing streak chatter in the context you desired.
It's only the Wulff people who are like "where do you get off remembering the stupid thing I said!"
First, you say that I'm rooting for a five game losing streak and then quote a post where I said something about a four game losing streak. Newsflash....that's making crap up.
Second, I don't even remember the post you quoted so I don't know the context. For all I know, you are referring to the post where I'm talking about a four game losing streak in 1993 after Pattinson was injured.
Cherry picking a partial sentence to make your point and then not even getting that right just makes it look like you are reaching. You are going to pull a muscle if you keep it up.
Also, quit calling me "Wulff people". In the almost four years since he was fired, I've never said that we should have kept him. I was 100% behind him getting canned. You talk about remembering stupid things but you are choosing to ignore the truth because again, why stick to the truth when you can make up stuff to pick a fight.
I think Wulff is vilified here and judged more harshly than he should be, but that doesn't mean that I think he did a good job. He needed to be fired. I've always said that.
I think Wulff is vilified here and judged more harshly than he should be, but that doesn't mean that I think he did a good job. He needed to be fired. I've always said that.
I think, what really matters here,
...is that Mike Leach went 4-1 against Bill Snyder. So I'm confident that a coach who's way greater than a coach who "belongs in the top ten coaches ever discussion" will be fine.
He went 9-40 and crashed the biggest athletic program we have- what part of that do you want people throwing bouquets at?
Nice attempt to redirect. That has nothing to do with the fact that all you are doing is trying to pick a fight. Even when people try to agree with you, you take the time to pick a fight about it. Don't feel bad.....that's just the internet in general. Anonymity allows people to act in a way that they never would if they act if they were looking the person in the eye.
Snyder is KSU's greatest coach of all time. Not in the conversation of greatest ever in college football.
We will bank this in the Flat archives.
You're making that crystal clear. Keep hedging so you can be "happy" if things go good, but, most importantly, right if they go bad.
It is interesting when you see odd things like that. I mentioned the CU thing earlier in jest (hence the emoticon) but it's crazy that Leach struggled against the Buffaloes even when he's had superior teams. It's amusing to see that a coach who's had as much success as Snyder has had would struggle so much against Tech. Of course, two of those losses were probably factors in his retirement in 2005. He had lost his fire and decided to step away after leading KSU to two consecutive losing seasons. One of my co-workers mentioned today that if KSU struggles again next year, they won't have to fire Snyder because he'll probably leave on his own. The day he feels like he isn't part of the solution.....he'll walk away and let a younger man get his shot.
So the only way that a coach is great is if he wins a national championship? How very Husky of you.
Then, when that young guy, realizes that Kansas State is... Kansas State, someone at K State will put most of their academic resources into creating RoboBill Snyder.
Unfortunately for KSU, they realize that they are probably going to suck when Snyder leaves. They had their shot at their next great coach when they almost hired Gary Patterson. Unfortunately, they screwed that up and who knows if they will find a guy who can make it happen there once he is gone. KU is proof of how hard it is to stay relevant. They are on track for 0-12. Poor bastards.
You, Tron, MikefingLeach, and wulffui are the only ones that bring the guy up on a regular basis. Nobody else really cares that much. Hell, Ed is ready to let the guy go and you just won't have it. You don't want a board where people get along so you take every chance you get to yell, "but, but, but Wulff!" and try to degenerate threads because you think it proves that you are witty and clever. Unfortunately, you don't realize is that all it does is make you a troll when you do it.
The sad thing is that all four of you, when you try, can actually be pretty decent message board posters. Every one wishes that it happens more often.
You said he was "not the bad" and everyone knows your attitude. You also mentioned the "improvement" under Wulff as some sort of magical sign.
Even on other boards people picked up your bs.
The problem is not us. It's always been you. Instead of apologizing or having the humility to accept your were wrong, you continually try to blame everyone else for noticing your bs, telling you your bs was wrong, and then having your bs be proved wrong.
You took the stance you did. You are labeled as such, and that's permanent. Hope it was worth it.
You said he was "not the bad" and everyone knows your attitude. You also mentioned the "improvement" under Wulff as some sort of magical sign.
Even on other boards people picked up your bs.
The problem is not us. It's always been you. Instead of apologizing or having the humility to accept your were wrong, you continually try to blame everyone else for noticing your bs, telling you your bs was wrong, and then having your bs be proved wrong.
You took the stance you did. You are labeled as such, and that's permanent. Hope it was worth it.
You quote a thread on a different board that I'm not even specifically mentioned in and you think that it means something? As I said before, you are gonna hurt yourself reaching.
You make up crap all the time and you exaggerate constantly. The problem is you......and it's always been you. I can't count the number of times that one of you guys has hijacked a thread by introducing Wulff into the mix. We have guys on the team that hadn't played a down of high school football when Wulff was coach here and you act like everything that happens relates back to him.
The stance that I took, and I'll stand by it anytime, is that only a complete dumba$$ thinks that Wulff was the worst coach in college football history. When you look at the history of college football, there are coaches that have truly destroyed great programs. How does a program like UW go from 11-1 in 2000 to 1-10 in 2004 and 0-12 in 2008? That takes a special level of incompetence on the parts of Neuheisal, Gilbertson and Willingham that surpasses Wulff. You look at the University of Kansas right now and they are getting ready to finish 0-12. Gill and Weis buried that sucker. There are dozens of examples out there of coaches ruining programs where it was a smoking ruin when they left. As much as I like Doba, he took a program that was thriving and left it gasping for air. When you hear the behind the scene stuff that was going on in 2008 & 2009, you realize that while Wulff didn't handle it well, the program was a mess that only a great coach would have been able to handle well (and Wulff was not a great coach). In the big picture, Wulff did not get the job done and needed to be fired, but proclaiming him the worst coach in college football history reflects ignorance and/or a desire to pick fights. There is a big difference between saying that a coach isn't the worst ever and that he was good. For whatever reason, that is beyond your comprehension.
If you want to make me look like an idiot, you need to quit making yourself look like an idiot first. The funny thing about this board is that it shows why politics is such a screwed up mess right now. Republicans want Democrats to look stupid and Democrats want the Republicans look stupid. You are playing the role of party honk quite well right now. If you just shut up and focused on the team that we have today, we'd all be better off. Instead, you are focusing on labeling people and treating them like crap, which leads to threads like this. Just to prove my point, you just said that labeling people is what you do. Contrary to what you think, I do not have any agenda to bring back Wulff and don't ever want to see him wearing a headset in any way related to WSU ever again. Yet you try to label me that way because it helps your simple mind find something it can focus on and it makes it easier for you to pick fights and get into arguments. The day that you really figure that out and quit trying to pick fights at every turn is the day that this board becomes a better place.
So, uh, what part of Wulff's tenure do you support?
Sorry, if you're going to pull a weekly "Leach won three games twice, that's less than Wulff won that got him fired", I (and others apparently) will continue pointing out that, hey, the old coach who gave him those players- ready to stage a national mutiny over tough practices- deserves a lot of credit for that failure too. But not by you.
Hell, I'll never ride for your Gilby/Willingham/Neuheisel troika... But their resumes- even with their UW debacles- are miles beyond what Wulff could achieve.
Good Lord! Let it go, guys. Let the dead bury the dead. While it is true that no one supports the previous staff to any degree anymore, all one has to do is post the "W" word to start a fight. Unending recriminations and accusations galore in a circular and fruitless argument. "You supported him." No, I didn't." "Oh, yeah, well look at your post from 2011." "Taken out of context." "No, it isn't" "Yes, it is." "Is not." On and on. This board would be immensely improved if this recurring fracas were banned. If you want to blame someone for any perceived failure then blame me. I'm good for it and won't care. It would at least be a refreshing change of pace.
Politely disagree, Wulffui. I am always ready for a good joke even, or especially, at my own expense. But the wound here is too recent and painful. It is still in healing stage. In a few years and after a run of bowl games then we can all have a good laugh about our past ineptitude but not now. Now is not the time. Now it is just annoying and turns off most of the posters. In the future I can see the joking but not now. And with a time difference one will be able to poke fun at ourselves- a Coug specialty- without the resultant heated personal animosity.
"W" failed and did so in superhuman style. He gave it his best shot and it didn't work. But poking fun at him seems to me to somewhat resemble poking fun at the loser in the wheelchair. It approaches the boundaries of bad taste.
Do you realize how childish and petty you sound right now? The neener-neener stuff is very 3rd grade. It would be one thing to say that you are glad that Wulff is behind us and joke about that. It's an entirely different thing when you attack other posters because you think that "rubbing someone's nose in it" is meaningful, particularly when almost every thing you type is an exaggeration of the truth at best.
I respect your polite disagreement.
But the Wulff era was a farce from day one, and holding him responsible for that, rather than shunting it onto Doba and Leach as has been done frequently, would start to heal some of those "still fresh" wounds- what is it, exactly... something about acceptance being the first step towards recovery? It's been FOUR YEARS- how long do we need to give people to come to terms with his calamitous failure before we can laugh? God knows I did at plenty of his games.
Comparing holding Wulff responsible for his failings to picking on a handicapped kid is a bit beyond the pale, though.
I think the last coach was one of the worst coaches ever, and that his failings have had an effect on the current coach. You've disagreed... by showing a small handful of coaches who might have been worse, not through any elevation of the last coaches abilities.
Why do you feel the need to mount a "bigger pile" defense every time someone is critical of a coach who decimated a football program?
Yes, I agree with most of your post. I just feel that the continual "W" bickering is like picking the scab on that wound. I suggest that we leave it alone to heal so we can laugh about it later. And, yes, the wheelchair part was "beyond the pale" and not to be taken literally. It is just that the previous regime was so atrocious that I almost find a sympathy for their travails.
One thing that bugs me is that the the previous regime stained two coaches and players. If a competent coach had succeeded Doba, his entire time would be thought of as much better. It never was as bad as people think it was. If the previous coach had been competent, Leach's abilities would not have been questioned so much the last four years.
I just feel like it should be less "scab you can pick" and more "scar you can point at and remember".
And a lot of people are more concerned about the scar in the context of "why didn't the doctor magically make my scar go away?" than "why did we get tore up so bad?"
And a select few treat the scar like the scene from Crash- the Cronenberg one, not the award winner.
And it would disappear outside of one liners... if people weren't still mounting impassioned defenses for a guy who didn't win 20% of his games.
Who, in their right mind, would pay Mike Leach $7M? I mean, the dude's not Nick Saban.
You are right....feel better. Wulff sucked. Horrible recruiter. Everyone was wrong for supporting the program. I was wrong and I am so very sorry. Feel better?
Good grief, as usual the usual suspects simply can't get over it. Brock and Salk are in Pullman, they are making WSU shine and you want to bring up a guy who has been gone for four years. You think Doba gives a crap what Wulff said about him?
But we can bring up all the old names again.. that will be fun on the most festive occasion. Christ, I have a buddy who paid 100k a month to his ex wife who banged the tennis pro that wasn't this bitter.
So i should just assume that if a thread has more than 20+ posts that at least half of the posts are just the same characters rehashing the same argument? Cool.
Seriously though. Flat, just ignore them. There are a handful of jokers on this site that will literally twist anything you say into a Wulff argument. You could say "I don't like the way Leach looks in sunglasses." and they'd come back with "He looks better than your best buddy Wulff did". That's just what they do. Your voice is oxygen to their flame. Without it, they die out. Please... let them die out. They aim to drive out the "non-believers" through aggressive bullying, but the only people I see leaving this site are folks who used to provide well thought out discussion... none of whom were Wullf supporters, particularly in years 3 and 4. There are quite a few veteran posters who have either reduced their involvement or left the board completely because they are sick of the bickering. Use your ignore button and the rest of us civilized folks can discuss WSU football in peace.
Seriously though. Flat, just ignore them. There are a handful of jokers on this site that will literally twist anything you say into a Wulff argument. You could say "I don't like the way Leach looks in sunglasses." and they'd come back with "He looks better than your best buddy Wulff did". That's just what they do. Your voice is oxygen to their flame. Without it, they die out. Please... let them die out. They aim to drive out the "non-believers" through aggressive bullying, but the only people I see leaving this site are folks who used to provide well thought out discussion... none of whom were Wullf supporters, particularly in years 3 and 4. There are quite a few veteran posters who have either reduced their involvement or left the board completely because they are sick of the bickering. Use your ignore button and the rest of us civilized folks can discuss WSU football in peace.
In regards to the original post...
I was upset with where we were after the PSU game. 12 wins in three seasons and a lose to a FCS school... I think the frustration was justified. But I don't think I ever needed to be "brought back". I still thought Leach could get the job done, but was not so enamored to think that he couldn't be on the proverbial hot seat. And I contend that if we hadn't turned the corner and this season played out like the last, that the discussion of whether or not Leach was the right guy needed to be had. Luckily, it appears that the PSU loss was the catalyst we needed. But I am still cautiously optimistic. 5-2 is great but we haven't reached the point where I can assume wins. Going into the season I wanted to see at least 5 wins, but at this point, 5-7 would be a tough pill to swallow. I don't think that will happen but its not completely out of the question. I'll breath a lot easier once we get that 6th win and become bowl eligible. Maybe WSU can do me a favor and get #6 out of the way this weekend!
