Help me out why so much hysteria about basically fist fights ?

[PINGDUDE4]

Just catching up and reading some headlines and articles in the on-line Seattle Times. When I first saw the suspension headlines I thought some players must had gone on some crazy crime spree. But when I actually read what was generating the articles it sounded clearly like over charged fist fights. No weapons, no apparent random acts of violence, no robbery, and no sexual assault.

In particular the pizza shop deal seems to be over-reaching by the police. When I was in my 20's in college stuff like occurred all the time. The player should be taught a lesson etc.. But let's get real if you are a male in your early 20's and you feel threatened by multiple people or any of those people verbally taunt you are "throwing hands" as we used to say. The player is probably in so much better shape and stronger that the other students do not stand much of a chance, but maybe they should have thought about that before messing with the guy. A lesson is in it for them as well.

My curiosity was up so I also watched the frat party brawl. If that was a player that threw the hay maker , he probably took it too far. However how does anyone know what happened leading up to the punch ? Also in that type of melee if you are going to charge people, how do you only charge one ?

Like I said , I do not know all of the details and maybe over simplifying it. But if these are the couple of incidents that are what is causing all of the angst in the newspaper , relative to what goes on else where with other college programs, the press seems to be over the top on this one.

 

[How_did_this_happen?]

Just catching up and reading some headlines and articles in the on-line Seattle Times. When I first saw the suspension headlines I thought OMG some players must had gone on some crazy crime spree. But when I actually read what was generating the articles it sounded clearly like over charged fist fights. No weapons, no apparent random acts of violence, no robbery, and no sexual assault.

In particular the pizza shop deal seems to be over-reaching by the police. When I was in my 20's in college stuff like occurred all the time. The player should be taught a lesson etc.. But let's get real if you are a male in your early 20's and you feel threatened by multiple people or any of those people verbally taunt you are "throwing hands" as we used to say. The player is probably in so much better shape and stronger that the other students do not stand much of a chance, but maybe they should thought about that before messing with the guy. A lesson in it for them as well.

My curiosity was up so I also watched the frat party brawl. If that was a player that threw the hay maker , he probably took it too far. However how does anyone know what happened leading up to the punch ? Also in type melee if you are going to charge people, how do only charge one ?

Like I said , I do not know all of the details and maybe over simplifying it. But if these are the couple of incidents are what is causing all of the angst in the newspaper , relative to what goes on else where with other college programs, the press seems to be over the top on this one.

Curious, how many fist fights have you been involved in?

 

[PINGDUDE4]

Curious, how many fist fights have you been involved in?

Not one after I was 20.

Probably 4 or 5 in high school, that would rise to the level of an actual fight . A couple in college , nothing major. But in summer between college years had a cheek bone broken in a fight once and deserved it, thought that I could get away with being a smart a** and paid the price.

If you know any male that went to high school in West Texas in the 70's that was not in at least a few fights tell me about them.

Not sure what this question has to do with anything, so maybe you can enlighten me.

How many you been in ?

 

[MRICoug]

I find it odd as well, but in a PC world where everyone is a victim....well...this is what you get. It is perfectly acceptable to ruin a kids reputation because he is a "bully", and yet it seems also acceptable for others to be jerks to the same person and not be held to account. I had the same feeling regarding the brawl. The hay maker may have been too much, but there is no video I have seen that includes the events that lead up to it. This is likely why it took so long to charge anyone. I still feel like they will have a hell of a time attempting to convict based on that video, especially with regular students also being charged.

 

[Coug95man2]

I agree with Ping. I've been in my share of fights, a broken nose and numerous black eyes, bruised ribs and a couple times where I had to throw up for the gut shots I took. I've never started a fight but when pushed or taunted after asking them to stop, I work my damnedest to end the fight. I don't get why it's such a "bad thing" to stand up for yourself. The "wussification", I guess.

The problem is there is some statistic out there saying WSU has the highest "crime rate" of any football program out there. Problem, at Pullman things are much stricter. At any other given school, many "crimes" committed by WSU players wouldn't even be dealt with by police in other towns. The numbers are skewed, unfortunately. All programs don't have the same police dept.. Different standards being held up.

Also, I have a really hard time with these incidents being a federal crime, which as I recall is what they are being charged with. The consequences for a conviction of a felony is harsh, to say the least. Realize for those that are OK with these charges, that if found guilty, they will no longer have the right to vote, no longer have the right to bear arms, many many legal and constitutional rights will be taken away. They will always and forever have a hard time finding any meaningful job. Misdemeanor? TOTALLY get it. Felony? Pulease. Not being able to vote over a thrown punch is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, IMHO. Some might have more clarity on the legal ramifications but it's what I understand them to be.

ALSO, why are these fights taking such precedent when we have several rapes going on, on campus… yet hardly a peep regarding this issue… THAT is just plain wrong. There are articles about the frat being suspended by the national chapter "among allegations" and that's it. Hardly a comment. People shake their heads, say how sad it is and then they move on to another subject. But man, bring up the football team and EVERYONE has an opinion that leads to a 1 hour conversation… Society… stupid.

 

[Cougsocal]

First off, we don't know what happened. If, and only if you have two willing combatants is a fist fight not a crime. If that is what happened, the charges won't stick. If there is confusion over what happened (Champ Simmons), the charges won't stick. Only if someone assaults another who was not demonstrating consent, beyond a reasonable doubt, will one be convicted. Further, a prosecutor(s) will review the evidence presented to him/her by the police, and make an independent decision whether it is virtually certain that he/she can win a conviction. Only then will he/she proceed. That is why virtually every prosecutor has a 98% conviction rate.

You may be right, kids these days might be entitled pussies, but we may have a bunch of douche bag football players on our hands who need to be shown the door. One thing I know, it takes a lot to get expelled, when the panel expelling you is a defense attorney's wet dream. Whatever Barber did, it was bad.

 

[How_did_this_happen?]

I agree with Ping. I've been in my share of fights, a broken nose and numerous black eyes, bruised ribs and a couple times where I had to throw up for the gut shots I took. I've never started a fight but when pushed or taunted after asking them to stop, I work my damnedest to end the fight. I don't get why it's such a "bad thing" to stand up for yourself. The "wussification", I guess.

The problem is there is some statistic out there saying WSU has the highest "crime rate" of any football program out there. Problem, at Pullman things are much stricter. At any other given school, many "crimes" committed by WSU players wouldn't even be dealt with by police in other towns. The numbers are skewed, unfortunately. All programs don't have the same police dept.. Different standards being held up.

Also, I have a really hard time with these incidents being a federal crime, which as I recall is what they are being charged with. The consequences for a conviction of a felony is harsh, to say the least. Realize for those that are OK with these charges, that if found guilty, they will no longer have the right to vote, no longer have the right to bear arms, many many legal and constitutional rights will be taken away. They will always and forever have a hard time finding any meaningful job. Misdemeanor? TOTALLY get it. Felony? Pulease. Not being able to vote over a thrown punch is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, IMHO. Some might have more clarity on the legal ramifications but it's what I understand them to be.

ALSO, why are these fights taking such precedent when we have several rapes going on, on campus… yet hardly a peep regarding this issue… THAT is just plain wrong. There are articles about the frat being suspended by the national chapter "among allegations" and that's it. Hardly a comment. People shake their heads, say how sad it is and then they move on to another subject. But man, bring up the football team and EVERYONE has an opinion that leads to a 1 hour conversation… Society… stupid.

I totally agree. Must stand up for yourself and family/friends. I call people out if they are being rude/obnoxious, but don't run into situations where it escalates to violence though...yet. Most guys I want to punch in the face are VPs at work. Not a good idea though.
Alcohol is usually a contributing factor, so there's that.

 

[kayak15]

I agree with Ping. I've been in my share of fights, a broken nose and numerous black eyes, bruised ribs and a couple times where I had to throw up for the gut shots I took. I've never started a fight but when pushed or taunted after asking them to stop, I work my damnedest to end the fight. I don't get why it's such a "bad thing" to stand up for yourself. The "wussification", I guess.

The problem is there is some statistic out there saying WSU has the highest "crime rate" of any football program out there. Problem, at Pullman things are much stricter. At any other given school, many "crimes" committed by WSU players wouldn't even be dealt with by police in other towns. The numbers are skewed, unfortunately. All programs don't have the same police dept.. Different standards being held up.

Also, I have a really hard time with these incidents being a federal crime, which as I recall is what they are being charged with. The consequences for a conviction of a felony is harsh, to say the least. Realize for those that are OK with these charges, that if found guilty, they will no longer have the right to vote, no longer have the right to bear arms, many many legal and constitutional rights will be taken away. They will always and forever have a hard time finding any meaningful job. Misdemeanor? TOTALLY get it. Felony? Pulease. Not being able to vote over a thrown punch is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, IMHO. Some might have more clarity on the legal ramifications but it's what I understand them to be.

ALSO, why are these fights taking such precedent when we have several rapes going on, on campus… yet hardly a peep regarding this issue… THAT is just plain wrong. There are articles about the frat being suspended by the national chapter "among allegations" and that's it. Hardly a comment. People shake their heads, say how sad it is and then they move on to another subject. But man, bring up the football team and EVERYONE has an opinion that leads to a 1 hour conversation… Society… stupid.

Could not agree more. Like man2 and Ping, I had my fair share of altercations resulting in bumps and bruises. It had never occurred to me prior to these recent incidents but my memory was recalled about one occasion during high school. Sat down to breakfast one morning with a black eye. Neither of my parents or any of my five siblings asked what happened. So he got a black eye in a fistfight or during sports or had an accident. Ho Hum, no big deal. It happens occasionally. Now it's evidence of a felony and someone must suffer the consequences for the rest of their life. Ridiculous.

I am convinced that a large portion of the problem stems from the fact that Pullman is a small town. Do any of you really expect to find "Fistfight at Dominos" gracing the front page of any newspaper in a metropolitan area? Or anywhere in the paper? Or having the police called with any degree of certainty that they would find it worthwhile to respond? With a major city's drug violence, sexual crimes, larcenies and white collar crime, where would a fistfight land on the list of priorities? A "fistfight at Dominos" may be the most exciting thing to happen in Pullman that day with predictable results in attention from the legal authorities and media.

MRI's comment about the videos not showing what led up to the confrontation is spot on. Who started the fight? Who or what provoked the physicality? These videos are rampant these days but are only started after the first segment of the disagreement. None show what caused the problem.

A punch or two may be ill advised but are not evidence of sociopathic behavior. Even a cracked jaw or broken nose will be healed in six weeks or less. Should someone have their educational opportunity curtailed and a felony placed on their record for life because of it? Sometimes black-and-white written law is not justice. This is not justice.

I am fine with a misdemeanor conviction where warranted. And then turned over to Salave'a for some major ass chewing and time on the Leach Beach. But a felony for what was improper but routine and unremarkable behavior a few decades ago? Absurd. PC wussification gone berserk. Not justice.

 

[PINGDUDE4]

I totally agree. Must stand up for yourself and family/friends. I call people out if they are being rude/obnoxious, but don't run into situations where it escalates to violence though...yet. Most guys I want to punch in the face are VPs at work. Not a good idea though.
Alcohol is usually a contributing factor, so there's that.

Agree the Players for sure need to be taught a lesson that they will not go very far in society by trying to punch every one out any time they are in a disagreement. As Coug95Man put it well, seems like you can do that without saddling them for life with a felony conviction.

The flip side of what you are saying however I have always wondered about. Have any of the rude/obnoxious people that you see in a work place ever been in an environment where they could be possibly get a punch for overly agitating someone. After my broken cheekbone episode , I for some reason looked for ways to not overly agitate other people etc.. Funny how that works.

 

[Coug95man2]

First off, we don't know what happened. If, and only if you have two willing combatants is a fist fight not a crime. If that is what happened, the charges won't stick. If there is confusion over what happened (Champ Simmons), the charges won't stick. Only if someone assaults another who was not demonstrating consent, beyond a reasonable doubt, will one be convicted. Further, a prosecutor(s) will review the evidence presented to him/her by the police, and make an independent decision whether it is virtually certain that he/she can win a conviction. Only then will he/she proceed. That is why virtually every prosecutor has a 98% conviction rate.

You may be right, kids these days might be entitled pussies, but we may have a bunch of douche bag football players on our hands who need to be shown the door. One thing I know, it takes a lot to get expelled, when the panel expelling you is a defense attorney's wet dream. Whatever Barber did, it was bad.

I don't care if it's a bully taking a cheap shot… It doesn't/shouldn't go so far as a felony. Constitutional Rights, by definition, are "God Given". Not something to be taken lightly. And to not allow someone to choose and voice their right... the path of the nation... is extreme. I also take gun rights as vital. Both instances are equally heavy in my mind.

Think of it this way. There are cases where someone has died, and those that have been involved, to a certain extent told they are responsible for the death of another human, will still have all their Constitutional Rights afforded. There is such a thing as Misdemeanor Death. Yet a punch by a 19 year old and the ramifications are somehow worthy of taking away the right to liberty, to expression, to pursue happiness? It's just wrong.

And I do believe the ethics board or whomever is expelling… is wrong as well. Education is so precious. If they are kicking players out, I expect the expulsions prior to convictions for those accused in the date rape/drugging of women. Obviously charges better be coming and they better be felony charges. I find that situation so much more abhorrent, so repulsive but somehow that isn't a "bad mark" on our school? What is this board saying about this? Crickets...

As you can see, I have "feelings" about this… sorry all. Rant over.

 

[CougEd]

Just catching up and reading some headlines and articles in the on-line Seattle Times. When I first saw the suspension headlines I thought some players must had gone on some crazy crime spree. But when I actually read what was generating the articles it sounded clearly like over charged fist fights. No weapons, no apparent random acts of violence, no robbery, and no sexual assault.

In particular the pizza shop deal seems to be over-reaching by the police. When I was in my 20's in college stuff like occurred all the time. The player should be taught a lesson etc.. But let's get real if you are a male in your early 20's and you feel threatened by multiple people or any of those people verbally taunt you are "throwing hands" as we used to say. The player is probably in so much better shape and stronger that the other students do not stand much of a chance, but maybe they should have thought about that before messing with the guy. A lesson is in it for them as well.

My curiosity was up so I also watched the frat party brawl. If that was a player that threw the hay maker , he probably took it too far. However how does anyone know what happened leading up to the punch ? Also in that type of melee if you are going to charge people, how do you only charge one ?

Like I said , I do not know all of the details and maybe over simplifying it. But if these are the couple of incidents are what is causing all of the angst in the newspaper , relative to what goes on else where with other college programs, the press seems to be over the top on this one.

Where is the line? Here is the problem. What happens in that boys will boys confrontation and the guy getting beat up by Barber decides to even the odds and pulls out a gun in self defense? How smart is getting into a drunken brawl then?

Also, unlike you, and many other people who clearly had their dusts ups and a broken nose or two, these football players in trade off for their talent represent the university. They get some of their education paid from the very students they are fighting with.

I saw the haymaker in the video. Really, the guy who he hit was threatening him? He was in danger?

For all of this proclaimed discipline, these kids aren't even smart enough to get out of a bad situation.

Luani being flat out stupid for putting himself in that position costs his teammates the EWU game. Is that really worth a frickin 18.00 pizza that quite frankly sucks?

How much different would Jeremy Stevens life be if people didn't make an excuse for him at every turn, that he was held accountable for his actions. Why did Keith Millard get away with the crap he did? Cause Walden allowed it. Do you know how lucky Millard is to be alive? In a drunken (and probably other mind altering substances) Millard was held at gun point by the Minneapolis police. He held up his guns like Popeye and declared that the police guns are no match for his as he showed them his biceps.

There are story after story where the athletes are glorified and protected. And why? We as fans certainly aren't doing them any favors for not allowing them to be responsible members of the WSU community.

 

[CougEd]

Could not agree more. Like man2 and Ping, I had my fair share of altercations resulting in bumps and bruises. It had never occurred to me prior to these recent incidents but my memory was recalled about one occasion during high school. Sat down to breakfast one morning with a black eye. Neither of my parents or any of my five siblings asked what happened. So he got a black eye in a fistfight or during sports or had an accident. Ho Hum, no big deal. It happens occasionally. Now it's evidence of a felony and someone must suffer the consequences for the rest of their life. Ridiculous.

I am convinced that a large portion of the problem stems from the fact that Pullman is a small town. Do any of you really expect to find "Fistfight at Dominos" gracing the front page of any newspaper in a metropolitan area? Or anywhere in the paper? Or having the police called with any degree of certainty that they would find it worthwhile to respond? With a major city's drug violence, sexual crimes, larcenies and while collar crime, where would a fistfight land on the list of priorities? A "fistfight at Dominos" may be the most exciting thing to happen in Pullman that day with predictable results in attention from the legal authorities and media.

MRI's comment about the videos not showing what led up to the confrontation is spot on. Who started the fight? Who or what provoked the physicality? These videos are rampant these days but are only started after the first segment of the disagreement. None show what caused the problem.

A punch or two may be ill advised but are not evidence of sociopathic behavior. Even a cracked jaw or broken nose will be healed in six weeks or less. Should someone have their educational opportunity curtailed and a felony placed on their record for life because of it? Sometimes black-and-white written law is not justice. This is not justice.

I am fine with a misdemeanor conviction where warranted. And then turned over to Salave'a for some major ass chewing and time on the Leach Beach. But a felony for what was improper but routine and unremarkable behavior a few decades ago? Absurd. PC wussification gone berserk. Not justice.

Here is the problem Kayak...in the cities you mentioned what is their major source of revenue? If the UW packed its bags and said we are closing shop and moving to Chelan, would the Seattle economy come to a stop? The economy in Pullman is the school and the students. I saw the video, justified or not, the punch that the kid to the left threw made national news. Are you really saying the police after witnessing that punch should simply say...cmon guys, why can't we be friends? What happens next time?

 

[SCglory]

I agree with Ping. I've been in my share of fights, a broken nose and numerous black eyes, bruised ribs and a couple times where I had to throw up for the gut shots I took. I've never started a fight but when pushed or taunted after asking them to stop, I work my damnedest to end the fight. I don't get why it's such a "bad thing" to stand up for yourself. The "wussification", I guess.

The problem is there is some statistic out there saying WSU has the highest "crime rate" of any football program out there. Problem, at Pullman things are much stricter. At any other given school, many "crimes" committed by WSU players wouldn't even be dealt with by police in other towns. The numbers are skewed, unfortunately. All programs don't have the same police dept.. Different standards being held up.

Also, I have a really hard time with these incidents being a federal crime, which as I recall is what they are being charged with. The consequences for a conviction of a felony is harsh, to say the least. Realize for those that are OK with these charges, that if found guilty, they will no longer have the right to vote, no longer have the right to bear arms, many many legal and constitutional rights will be taken away. They will always and forever have a hard time finding any meaningful job. Misdemeanor? TOTALLY get it. Felony? Pulease. Not being able to vote over a thrown punch is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, IMHO. Some might have more clarity on the legal ramifications but it's what I understand them to be.

ALSO, why are these fights taking such precedent when we have several rapes going on, on campus… yet hardly a peep regarding this issue… THAT is just plain wrong. There are articles about the frat being suspended by the national chapter "among allegations" and that's it. Hardly a comment. People shake their heads, say how sad it is and then they move on to another subject. But man, bring up the football team and EVERYONE has an opinion that leads to a 1 hour conversation… Society… stupid.

Hey 95, I got one for you...Have you heard the one about the USC o-lineman who punched a coach? ...... Man O' Man....some crappola is coming down.....

 

[CPtheCoug]

I am surprised no one has mentioned the WA Mutual Combat Law...

 

[Cougsocal]

I don't care if it's a bully taking a cheap shot… It doesn't/shouldn't go so far as a felony. Constitutional Rights, by definition, are "God Given". Not something to be taken lightly. And to not allow someone to choose and voice their right... the path of the nation... is extreme. I also take gun rights as vital. Both instances are equally heavy in my mind.

Think of it this way. There are cases where someone has died, and those that have been involved, to a certain extent told they are responsible for the death of another human, will still have all their Constitutional Rights afforded. There is such a thing as Misdemeanor Death. Yet a punch by a 19 year old and the ramifications are somehow worthy of taking away the right to liberty, to expression, to pursue happiness? It's just wrong.

And I do believe the ethics board or whomever is expelling… is wrong as well. Education is so precious. If they are kicking players out, I expect the expulsions prior to convictions for those accused in the date rape/drugging of women. Obviously charges better be coming and they better be felony charges. I find that situation so much more abhorrent, so repulsive but somehow that isn't a "bad mark" on our school? What is this board saying about this? Crickets...

As you can see, I have "feelings" about this… sorry all. Rant over.

There is no such thing as "god given" rights. That is prose. You have rights (and limitations) afforded you by men. There was no channeling of Jesus when the Constitution was written. You don't have a right to attend university, WSU is a privilege, a club, not a right. Thousands are told every year they just aren't good enough to be part of our club. A single sucker shot probably doesn't warrant a felony, but you are a huge douche, especially if you are bigger and stronger, and you should not belong to our club -- we have standard of conducts that you agree to upon admission, remember those? You can attend a school that doesn't care ... Baylor, UW???

If you keep pounding on someone who is defenseless you are likely committing a felony -- intent to commit grievous bodily harm. Coup de grace shots aren't a misdemeanor.

As for Barber, a panel of "(likely) do good" lefties reached the conclusion, effectively, that he was so incorrigible that should be kick out of the WSU club. Legally it is that simple. He might win his appeal, but I hope for WSU sake it isn't because we are just too thin at DT.

 

[ElComanche]

The "mutual Combat rule" i have asked about it but do not know if any such rule exists. Sure football players are bigger and stronger. But who caused the confrontation? I have had my share of fights and most people who engage in fights know that there is a possibility one may get their ass kicked.Normally one would stay away from the bigger stronger football players. Who s making the decisions to expel players over a fight? What are their backgrounds? Are they frat brothers? A single punch may not arrant an expulsion. if one continues to pound someone when they are down takes it to another category.TO me ,there are many unanswered questions about the fight and the expulsion. If a guy hits a bigger guy with no effect and the bigger guy breaks the other s jaw with one punch,who is more to blame?As for other students paying for their scholarships,what about the fact that athletes are being exploited for their athletic ability? One punch in my mind does not classify one as incorrigible.When alcohol is involved and a melee breaks out bad stuff happens and all involved are to blame to some extent Unless there is more involved,somehow the bigger guy is being blamed more than the others.

 

[Cougatron]

People are babies these days.

We need some WWIII shit to happen here in America, and I don't mean like the pressure cooker bomb stuff. I'm talking a whole generation has to go fight a damn war because some crazy guy is building an army. to conquer the world and we have to stop them.

The sissy heard will be thinned and finally maybe we won't be some baby society that is worried about who said what on Instagram and if we can get a caramel macchiato soy cane sugar.

 

[Coug95man2]

There is no such thing as "god given" rights. That is prose. You have rights (and limitations) afforded you by men. There was no channeling of Jesus when the Constitution was written. You don't have a right to attend university, WSU is a privilege, a club, not a right. Thousands are told every year they just aren't good enough to be part of our club. A single sucker shot probably doesn't warrant a felony, but you are a huge douche, especially if you are bigger and stronger, and you should not belong to our club -- we have standard of conducts that you agree to upon admission, remember those? You can attend a school that doesn't care ... Baylor, UW???

If you keep pounding on someone who is defenseless you are likely committing a felony -- intent to commit grievous bodily harm. Coup de grace shots aren't a misdemeanor.

As for Barber, a panel of "(likely) do good" lefties reached the conclusion, effectively, that he was so incorrigible that should be kick out of the WSU club. Legally it is that simple. He might win his appeal, but I hope for WSU sake it isn't because we are just too thin at DT.

Alright SoCal, you sucked me in. I responded, edited to say NM, then deleted. Gonna go back on that.

1. I do believe there are God given rights. I also believe the forefathers believed similarly, hence the "prose". They weren't channeling Jesus, they were just stating what they believed to be fact. So much so, they put it in legal documents. I guess you don't believe that and that's OK. Every human on this earth has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Nothing earth shattering. I think pretty basic human rights. Cornerstone of human rights, actually.

2. I never said anything of the like that going to a University is a "right". I'm glad we are on the same page, I guess.

3. The "keep pounding" a defenseless person, I don't think I outlined anything of the like… so I guess we again are on the same page. Coolio.

4. Whether he is allowed back via appeal is irrelevant in my opinion. You are jumping ahead in the timeline. If this is what happens to Barber, then so be it. But it better happen to a bunch of frat boys that think drugging girls is acceptable in order to have unconscious, unwanted sex… rape... with them. So if there is an accusation, not a conviction, they should be kicked out, just like Barber. THEN they can worry about an appeal. I get it that the WSU football program represents the school. So do you, SoCal. And you are putting yourself in a very public, very open space right now. The frat boys are VERY public and they are representing our University. What's good for the goose should be good for the gander, is my only point. And I think this board (whomever they are) has handled it poorly. Conviction? So be it, easy path for expulsion but no absolute rule. No conviction? Case by case but wise to wait to get court documents and get legitimate facts. Bottom line, I don't know how this board can go backwards and take the expulsion back. SO they've set a precedent of expulsion prior to conviction. Meaning they don't know the facts but they're willing to go with the information they have. This is wrong, at least from where I stand right now. So I have expectations that the same process should go for the very present, very horrendous crimes of rape during a fraternity function. Won't happen. Again, society...

5. I still don't believe a punch, or even several punches, are worthy of felony. I'm not defending "douches" but they aren't felons, either. I rather like hitting a douche, they are 99% of what my fights have been with! If it goes to threatening ("I'm gonna kill your momma, your daddy and your family" kind of thing), if it goes to weapons, if it goes to unconscious almost death… I get that. BUT those would also fall under different charges. But those aren't the situations we are talking about, either. I just don't believe a broken nose, even a broken jaw, certainly a black eye, bruised (fractured) cheek, bloodied nose, broken finger or hand… they just aren't felonies. It's "wussification". Just my opinion.

 

[Wasichus]

There is no such thing as "god given" rights. That is prose. You have rights (and limitations) afforded you by men. There was no channeling of Jesus when the Constitution was written. You don't have a right to attend university, WSU is a privilege, a club, not a right. Thousands are told every year they just aren't good enough to be part of our club. A single sucker shot probably doesn't warrant a felony, but you are a huge douche, especially if you are bigger and stronger, and you should not belong to our club -- we have standard of conducts that you agree to upon admission, remember those? You can attend a school that doesn't care ... Baylor, UW???

If you keep pounding on someone who is defenseless you are likely committing a felony -- intent to commit grievous bodily harm. Coup de grace shots aren't a misdemeanor.

As for Barber, a panel of "(likely) do good" lefties reached the conclusion, effectively, that he was so incorrigible that should be kick out of the WSU club. Legally it is that simple. He might win his appeal, but I hope for WSU sake it isn't because we are just too thin at DT.

Nothing could be further from the truth than what I bolded. The charge of second degree felony assault is based on the bodily harm incurred. It's up to the prosecutor to decide to pursue that charge, or not. (Unless, of course, you are just expressing your opinion on the "way it should be", not the way it actually works?)

But the charge itself can, and does, often stem from a "single punch", sucker punch, or not. I was talking about this sort of thing with an attorney friend of mine just this past weekend. He said there are literally thousands of examples out there of the so called "golden punch" that lands someone in the deep doo doo because it causes bodily harm. He said many of those type situations are plead down to a lesser charge, in the end.

The second part of your anecdote is what usually keeps the charge at felony level, instead of being plead down to a lesser charge. I.e. - the continued pounding, or beat down/curb stomping aspect.

But the initial charge of second degree felony assault is based mostly on the fact that someone was injured enough to sustain "grievous bodily harm", and it absolutely (in the eyes of the law) can come from a single punch.

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

I don't care if it's a bully taking a cheap shot… It doesn't/shouldn't go so far as a felony. Constitutional Rights, by definition, are "God Given". Not something to be taken lightly. And to not allow someone to choose and voice their right... the path of the nation... is extreme. I also take gun rights as vital. Both instances are equally heavy in my mind.

Think of it this way. There are cases where someone has died, and those that have been involved, to a certain extent told they are responsible for the death of another human, will still have all their Constitutional Rights afforded. There is such a thing as Misdemeanor Death. Yet a punch by a 19 year old and the ramifications are somehow worthy of taking away the right to liberty, to expression, to pursue happiness? It's just wrong.

And I do believe the ethics board or whomever is expelling… is wrong as well. Education is so precious. If they are kicking players out, I expect the expulsions prior to convictions for those accused in the date rape/drugging of women. Obviously charges better be coming and they better be felony charges. I find that situation so much more abhorrent, so repulsive but somehow that isn't a "bad mark" on our school? What is this board saying about this? Crickets...

As you can see, I have "feelings" about this… sorry all. Rant over.

In today's college atmosphere of pc,sjw, and safe spaces, I find an "ethics board" of students to be a highly questionable method of meting out discipline. I wouldn't trust a group of 20 year olds to decide if my farts stink or not, let alone the future of any student on campus - ESPECIALLY a student athlete/ football player whom many have negative attitudes towards already.

Maybe 1 peer on a panel of 6 administrators, but not a panel of peers. Not as college students. No way.

 

[fingerdisco]

I wouldn't trust a group of 20 year olds to decide if my farts stink or not...

What we need is a good war fightin' nazis or commies or sumthin to teach these pussy kids that there's a lot worse smells than farts. Try smelling a maggoty dead body next to you in a foxhole if you think farts smell bad, you damn wimp kids. And get off my lawn too, dammit!

 

[BleedCrimsonandGray]

What we need is a good war fightin' nazis or commies or sumthin to teach these pussy kids that there's a lot worse smells than farts. Try smelling a maggoty dead body next to you in a foxhole if you think farts smell bad, you damn wimp kids. And get off my lawn too, dammit!

keep talkin'...

 

[How_did_this_happen?]

What we need is a good war fightin' nazis or commies or sumthin to teach these pussy kids that there's a lot worse smells than farts. Try smelling a maggoty dead body next to you in a foxhole if you think farts smell bad, you damn wimp kids. And get off my lawn too, dammit!

Thems fightin' words pardner.

 

[fingerdisco]

Thems fightin' words pardner.

You don't want none of this--I got a black belt in Dominos Pizza box folding.

 

[kayak15]

Here is the problem Kayak...in the cities you mentioned what is their major source of revenue? If the UW packed its bags and said we are closing shop and moving to Chelan, would the Seattle economy come to a stop? The economy in Pullman is the school and the students. I saw the video, justified or not, the punch that the kid to the left threw made national news. Are you really saying the police after witnessing that punch should simply say...cmon guys, why can't we be friends? What happens next time?

Pullman without Wazzu would be a wide spot in the road with a Conoco station and a general store and Seattle without the uw would still be Seattle. Seattle's PD has more to deal with than drunken college kids. Pullman's PD has drunken college kids. I don't see revenue sources entering the picture in any significance.

Nobody on the board has suggested that we go full Maleng and Huntzinger here with the problem. But what do we do, that is the issue? The haymaker thrown could well be seen to raise to an illegal level. I just cannot see a felony. If someone was being struck while defenseless then that may well be considered in felony territory. I think that it is fair to say that all the posters on this board turned out reasonably well despite a share of youthful indiscretions. And we did so without the need of incarceration or permanent stain or restrictions. There exists a wide range of remedies that will serve to make the point between sweep-it-under-the-rug and a felony conviction.

 

[kayak15]

In today's college atmosphere of pc,sjw, and safe spaces, I find an "ethics board" of students to be a highly questionable method of meting out discipline. I wouldn't trust a group of 20 year olds to decide if my farts stink or not, let alone the future of any student on campus - ESPECIALLY a student athlete/ football player whom many have negative attitudes towards already.

Maybe 1 peer on a panel of 6 administrators, but not a panel of peers. Not as college students. No way.

I agree. This panel's decision will have a lifelong effect on the judged. So how fair and reasonable is that panel? My suspicion is that those who want to serve on such a panel are predominantly the same ones who are fervently in favor of the PC silliness we see. The ones that look down their noses at athletes as inferior human beings who do not deserve to be there in the first place. They may be fellow students and of the same age as the accused but are hardly "peers".

Are they consistent in their application of justice? The question of the alleged rapes at a frat house has been raised. I would like to raise another. Alcohol was rather obviously served to minors at the frat house where the fight took place. One can make a good argument that more damage often results from underage drinking than from a punch in the mouth. Has the frat house president been charged by either the law or the student ethics board? Not that I know of. Why not? And if he is then can we expect the ethics panel to recommend that the school president expel him prior to his senior year as was done to Barber? An inequality in the application of justice is no justice.

 

[SCglory]

What we need is a good war fightin' nazis or commies or sumthin to teach these pussy kids that there's a lot worse smells than farts. Try smelling a maggoty dead body next to you in a foxhole if you think farts smell bad, you damn wimp kids. And get off my lawn too, dammit!

In a lot of those foxholes, were you? "Hell hath no fury like a non-combatant."

 

[SCglory]

Pullman without Wazzu would be a wide spot in the road with a Conoco station and a general store and Seattle without the uw would still be Seattle. Seattle's PD has more to deal with than drunken college kids. Pullman's PD has drunken college kids. I don't see revenue sources entering the picture in any significance.

Nobody on the board has suggested that we go full Maleng and Huntzinger here with the problem. But what do we do, that is the issue? The haymaker thrown could well be seen to raise to an illegal level. I just cannot see a felony. If someone was being struck while defenseless then that may well be considered in felony territory. I think that it is fair to say that all the posters on this board turned out reasonably well despite a share of youthful indiscretions. And we did so without the need of incarceration or permanent stain or restrictions. There exists a wide range of remedies that will serve to make the point between sweep-it-under-the-rug and a felony conviction.

WRONG. There would also be:

John Deere Dealership (or Case or Gleaner, etc.). It would look like Wasco, Moro, Grass Valley, etc. in Oregon....lol

 

[Flatlandcoug]

The thing about these "fist fights" is that you are talking about fights between guys who can bench press 300 lbs and other guys who can't bench 175 lbs. The whole spiderman thing comes into play at some point. "With great power comes great responsibility". These guys typically get treated better than anyone else on campus when it comes to their interactions with other students. They have a tremendous physical advantage as well. They need to remember that they will be held to a different standard because of those two things.

As for Barber, it was mentioned in the press conference that the assault charge was recommended because he was the one who went after the guy on the ground and pounded him while he was down. If true, that was a punk move by Barber and he deserves whatever happens to him. You don't beat the crap out of a smaller dude on the ground just because you can. As for Shalom, maybe it was a fight suggested by the guy in the Dominos and he was outnumbered. That didn't mean that he "needed" to show those punk a$$ b!tches that he was a f'ing tough guy who could kick their collective a$$es. In every case, ego and stupidity ruled over common sense and it's hard to feel too sorry for any of these guys.

 

[PINGDUDE4]

The thing about these "fist fights" is that you are talking about fights between guys who can bench press 300 lbs and other guys who can't bench 175 lbs. The whole spiderman thing comes into play at some point. "With great power comes great responsibility". These guys typically get treated better than anyone else on campus when it comes to their interactions with other students. They have a tremendous physical advantage as well. They need to remember that they will be held to a different standard because of those two things.

As for Barber, it was mentioned in the press conference that the assault charge was recommended because he was the one who went after the guy on the ground and pounded him while he was down. If true, that was a punk move by Barber and he deserves whatever happens to him. You don't beat the crap out of a smaller dude on the ground just because you can. As for Shalom, maybe it was a fight suggested by the guy in the Dominos and he was outnumbered. That didn't mean that he "needed" to show those punk a$$ b!tches that he was a f'ing tough guy who could kick their collective a$$es. In every case, ego and stupidity ruled over common sense and it's hard to feel too sorry for any of these guys.

Just watched the frat video again. The big punch was when the guy was clearly standing, he may have followed up with a smaller blow when the guy fell( hard to tell) and then he walked away.

From what I can tell from your newspapers the players have been more than properly vilified for their stupidity . What's next a hanging at noon in front of the court house ? Might as well if they kick them out of school and stick them with a felony conviction this early in life, they will be permanently effected.

4 similar incidents at other schools ( 3 even involving punching women) no felonies and players plead down to misdemeanors stayed in school and continued to play.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ys-shes-sure-fsu-player-punched-her/32262335/

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...einstates-nigel-bethel-amber-battle/12757147/

http://nypost.com/2015/09/22/tcu-loses-two-players-after-keystone-light-mugging/

http://www.espn.com/college-footbal...n-rejoins-oklahoma-sooners-suspension-assault

 

[Coug95man2]

Just watched the frat video again. The big punch was when the guy was clearly standing, he may have followed up with a smaller blow when the guy fell( hard to tell) and then he walked away.

From what I can tell from your newspapers the players have been more than properly vilified for their stupidity . What's next a hanging at noon in front of the court house ? Might as well if they kick them out of school and stick them with a felony conviction this early in life, they will be permanently effected.

4 similar incidents on other schools ( 3 even involving punching women, no felonies and players are still in school and playing).

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ys-shes-sure-fsu-player-punched-her/32262335/

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...einstates-nigel-bethel-amber-battle/12757147/

http://nypost.com/2015/09/22/tcu-loses-two-players-after-keystone-light-mugging/

http://www.espn.com/college-footbal...n-rejoins-oklahoma-sooners-suspension-assault

I think the concern for many is we don't want to become some program that harbors a bunch of criminals. People have lost sight of this. Isn't it obvious this HASN'T been swept under the rug?! This concept of sweeping things under the rug has now gone further into they need to pay MORE than a common person, because they represent the school. While I agree they do, I also believe that is a very mature, very advanced concept for 18-20 year olds that very well may not have this kind of freedom before in their life. Now they also have a "fame" concept entering their life, in combination with that freedom. Not making excuses. But just the human perspective on this thread. These kids aren't robots.

 

[HHusky]

Alright SoCal, you sucked me in. I responded, edited to say NM, then deleted. Gonna go back on that.

1. I do believe there are God given rights. I also believe the forefathers believed similarly, hence the "prose". They weren't channeling Jesus, they were just stating what they believed to be fact. So much so, they put it in legal documents. I guess you don't believe that and that's OK. Every human on this earth has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Nothing earth shattering. I think pretty basic human rights. Cornerstone of human rights, actually.

2. I never said anything of the like that going to a University is a "right". I'm glad we are on the same page, I guess.

3. The "keep pounding" a defenseless person, I don't think I outlined anything of the like… so I guess we again are on the same page. Coolio.

4. Whether he is allowed back via appeal is irrelevant in my opinion. You are jumping ahead in the timeline. If this is what happens to Barber, then so be it. But it better happen to a bunch of frat boys that think drugging girls is acceptable in order to have unconscious, unwanted sex… rape... with them. So if there is an accusation, not a conviction, they should be kicked out, just like Barber. THEN they can worry about an appeal. I get it that the WSU football program represents the school. So do you, SoCal. And you are putting yourself in a very public, very open space right now. The frat boys are VERY public and they are representing our University. What's good for the goose should be good for the gander, is my only point. And I think this board (whomever they are) has handled it poorly. Conviction? So be it, easy path for expulsion but no absolute rule. No conviction? Case by case but wise to wait to get court documents and get legitimate facts. Bottom line, I don't know how this board can go backwards and take the expulsion back. SO they've set a precedent of expulsion prior to conviction. Meaning they don't know the facts but they're willing to go with the information they have. This is wrong, at least from where I stand right now. So I have expectations that the same process should go for the very present, very horrendous crimes of rape during a fraternity function. Won't happen. Again, society...

5. I still don't believe a punch, or even several punches, are worthy of felony. I'm not defending "douches" but they aren't felons, either. I rather like hitting a douche, they are 99% of what my fights have been with! If it goes to threatening ("I'm gonna kill your momma, your daddy and your family" kind of thing), if it goes to weapons, if it goes to unconscious almost death… I get that. BUT those would also fall under different charges. But those aren't the situations we are talking about, either. I just don't believe a broken nose, even a broken jaw, certainly a black eye, bruised (fractured) cheek, bloodied nose, broken finger or hand… they just aren't felonies. It's "wussification". Just my opinion.

You're talking about the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution.

 

[Coug95man2]

You're talking about the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution.

Yep. Mis-stated in the previous. And some believe it to be legally binding, some just "inspiration". I believe that is the difference between SoCal and I.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Just watched the frat video again. The big punch was when the guy was clearly standing, he may have followed up with a smaller blow when the guy fell( hard to tell) and then he walked away.

From what I can tell from your newspapers the players have been more than properly vilified for their stupidity . What's next a hanging at noon in front of the court house ? Might as well if they kick them out of school and stick them with a felony conviction this early in life, they will be permanently effected.

4 similar incidents on other schools ( 3 even involving punching women, no felonies and players are still in school and playing).

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ys-shes-sure-fsu-player-punched-her/32262335/

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...einstates-nigel-bethel-amber-battle/12757147/

http://nypost.com/2015/09/22/tcu-loses-two-players-after-keystone-light-mugging/

http://www.espn.com/college-footbal...n-rejoins-oklahoma-sooners-suspension-assault

I agree that these incidents are probably getting more attention than they deserve but at the same time, every one of these incidents is the kind of the thing that makes a coach want to roll a guy in freezing weather while spraying water on him. Brazen stupidity in every single case.

 

[CougEd]

I agree. This panel's decision will have a lifelong effect on the judged. So how fair and reasonable is that panel? My suspicion is that those who want to serve on such a panel are predominantly the same ones who are fervently in favor of the PC silliness we see. The ones that look down their noses at athletes as inferior human beings who do not deserve to be there in the first place. They may be fellow students and of the same age as the accused but are hardly "peers".

Are they consistent in their application of justice? The question of the alleged rapes at a frat house has been raised. I would like to raise another. Alcohol was rather obviously served to minors at the frat house where the fight took place. One can make a good argument that more damage often results from underage drinking than from a punch in the mouth. Has the frat house president been charged by either the law or the student ethics board? Not that I know of. Why not? And if he is then can we expect the ethics panel to recommend that the school president expel him prior to his senior year as was done to Barber? An inequality in the application of justice is no justice.

Why is it PC silliness to expect a bigger kid to walk away? Why is it after Barber made his point (bigger and badder) is it ok to continue to pound on the kid? Do you believe that somehow the kid will understand the point more next time he has a party and doesn't want firecrackers lit in the house?

Let me present an alternative scenario. Say CougEd was at the party. Saw Barber beating the crap out of the kid. I politely ask him to stop. Barber turns on me. Say I am a 3rd degree black belt and I cause some very serious damage. IS that boys will be boys, good for you Ed not being "PC" and standing up to the bigger body? Or do I have too much to lose via court costs, being sued etc. that a once I stop Barber from beating the crap out of the kid it is smarter to walk away?

Not sure why that would be the "PC" thing to do to just walk away?

You know Walden made all kinds of excuses for Millard. "Oh he just was a guy with a lot of energy." No, Millard was a drunken dick. Tell me why it is ok for Millard to be at the down under (bar), and some guy and girl decided to leave the bar and apparently were headed for some fun. Millard didn't know the guy, nor the woman. The guy was hooking up probably for the first time at WSU and Millard stands in front of the door, "you are not leaving with her". The guy ignore Millard. Next thing you know Millard is chasing him down, catches him, and puts the guy on his knee and starts head butting him. You know what Brent White, Eric Williams and two other defensive players did? Nothing. You know what happened to Millard, nothing. You are right, the innocent kid should just suck it up and stop being so "PC".

 

[CougEd]

In today's college atmosphere of pc,sjw, and safe spaces, I find an "ethics board" of students to be a highly questionable method of meting out discipline. I wouldn't trust a group of 20 year olds to decide if my farts stink or not, let alone the future of any student on campus - ESPECIALLY a student athlete/ football player whom many have negative attitudes towards already.

Maybe 1 peer on a panel of 6 administrators, but not a panel of peers. Not as college students. No way.

Why? Isn't the school here for the kids? Yeah I get that there are some inherent problems with the make up of the panel, but it is THEIR school. It is their community.

 

[Cougsocal]

Nothing could be further from the truth than what I bolded. The charge of second degree felony assault is based on the bodily harm incurred. It's up to the prosecutor to decide to pursue that charge, or not. (Unless, of course, you are just expressing your opinion on the "way it should be", not the way it actually works?)

But the charge itself can, and does, often stem from a "single punch", sucker punch, or not. I was talking about this sort of thing with an attorney friend of mine just this past weekend. He said there are literally thousands of examples out there of the so called "golden punch" that lands someone in the deep doo doo because it causes bodily harm. He said many of those type situations are plead down to a lesser charge, in the end.

The second part of your anecdote is what usually keeps the charge at felony level, instead of being plead down to a lesser charge. I.e. - the continued pounding, or beat down/curb stomping aspect.

But the initial charge of second degree felony assault is based mostly on the fact that someone was injured enough to sustain "grievous bodily harm", and it absolutely (in the eyes of the law) can come from a single punch.

Assault as far as I know is an "intent crime," otherwise an accidental back elbow could make you a felon, if one is seriously injured. But I'm am 25 years out of law school, and don't practice criminal law. The totality of the circumstance is used to determine intent, not the result.

 

[Flatlandcoug]

Assault as far as I know is an "intent crime," otherwise an accidental back elbow could make you a felon, if one is seriously injured. But I'm am 25 years out of law school, and don't practice criminal law. The totality of the circumstance is used to determine intent, not the result.

What's insane about assault is that it doesn't always involve injury. My mother-in-law's senile geriatric roommate was arrested for assault with a deadly weapon for walking outside with a .22LR pistol and yelling at neighbors who were shooting fireworks onto the house. Didn't hurt anyone and didn't even point the gun and was, in fact, beaten up by the people he threatened.

 

[Cougsocal]

Alright SoCal, you sucked me in. I responded, edited to say NM, then deleted. Gonna go back on that.

1. I do believe there are God given rights. I also believe the forefathers believed similarly, hence the "prose". They weren't channeling Jesus, they were just stating what they believed to be fact. So much so, they put it in legal documents. I guess you don't believe that and that's OK. Every human on this earth has the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Nothing earth shattering. I think pretty basic human rights. Cornerstone of human rights, actually.

2. I never said anything of the like that going to a University is a "right". I'm glad we are on the same page, I guess.

3. The "keep pounding" a defenseless person, I don't think I outlined anything of the like… so I guess we again are on the same page. Coolio.

4. Whether he is allowed back via appeal is irrelevant in my opinion. You are jumping ahead in the timeline. If this is what happens to Barber, then so be it. But it better happen to a bunch of frat boys that think drugging girls is acceptable in order to have unconscious, unwanted sex… rape... with them. So if there is an accusation, not a conviction, they should be kicked out, just like Barber. THEN they can worry about an appeal. I get it that the WSU football program represents the school. So do you, SoCal. And you are putting yourself in a very public, very open space right now. The frat boys are VERY public and they are representing our University. What's good for the goose should be good for the gander, is my only point. And I think this board (whomever they are) has handled it poorly. Conviction? So be it, easy path for expulsion but no absolute rule. No conviction? Case by case but wise to wait to get court documents and get legitimate facts. Bottom line, I don't know how this board can go backwards and take the expulsion back. SO they've set a precedent of expulsion prior to conviction. Meaning they don't know the facts but they're willing to go with the information they have. This is wrong, at least from where I stand right now. So I have expectations that the same process should go for the very present, very horrendous crimes of rape during a fraternity function. Won't happen. Again, society...

5. I still don't believe a punch, or even several punches, are worthy of felony. I'm not defending "douches" but they aren't felons, either. I rather like hitting a douche, they are 99% of what my fights have been with! If it goes to threatening ("I'm gonna kill your momma, your daddy and your family" kind of thing), if it goes to weapons, if it goes to unconscious almost death… I get that. BUT those would also fall under different charges. But those aren't the situations we are talking about, either. I just don't believe a broken nose, even a broken jaw, certainly a black eye, bruised (fractured) cheek, bloodied nose, broken finger or hand… they just aren't felonies. It's "wussification". Just my opinion.

Two different things. You can be kicked out of school for cheating on a test or plagiarism. Poor moral character -- gone. They aren't crimes, not even a civil penalty. Our Code of Conduct holds students to high ethical and moral standards. That is why Barber got the boot. https://conduct.wsu.edu/

Channeling the law prof in me. I don't want to fight. You nevertheless punch me several times breaking my nose and jaw while I cower-- that isn't a felony? Really. You do realize that a "fight" in the true sense, isn't a crime because of consent. While dueling has been made illegal, fighting has not. But both parts must agree, and consent can be withdrawn at any time, so it gets complicated.

 

[Wasichus]

Assault as far as I know is an "intent crime," otherwise an accidental back elbow could make you a felon, if one is seriously injured. But I'm am 25 years out of law school, and don't practice criminal law. The totality of the circumstance is used to determine intent, not the result.

Well, I never went to law school and didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn last night so I don't consider myself an expert on the law.

But, what I was referring to was the second degree felony aspect of the charge, not the assault aspect itself.

I'm lead to believe, by some who should know, that there would not be a felony charge without the serious injury. And THAT can be the result of a single punch, not necessarily a curb-stomping beat down.

Obviously there are many permutations of any case that lead to the final determination of charges.

One can come up with a variety of scenarios that change the appearance of "fistfight", to "brazen attack".

But, (mostly) from what I have read and heard about this particular case, the injury came from a punch, or maybe a couple of punches. The idea that the "victim" was pummeled while down and defenseless was never included in any of the initial reports, nor evident on any video I have seen.

I also do sincerely believe that Leach would have handled this entirely differently if he felt this was a curb-stomping azzwhupping rather than a shorter altercation.